ie8 fix

Ageism, IT, and Jobs

By | April 6, 2006, 4:13am PDT

Summary: The answer to a skills deficit is education and practice, the answer to prejudice is community.

Here’s the askbloggie request:

Dear bloggie:

I am in a rut and was hoping you could help me. I know you are busy and I will understand if you choose not to reply. I just hope this email gets to you and you do actually read it.

I chose to email you because, quite frankly, I don’t know who else to turn to. I can’t speak openly to other IT guys in my workplace.

I have been a fan of your blog and your writing for a few years. I keep a copy of your "Using Linux in Your Resume" article on my cork board and refer to it regularly when updating my resume.

My email to you is to ask some advice as to how to get out of this rut I have dug myself into. Here is my situation. This is my seventh year in IT. I am a senior support IT guy. I like IT and want to stay in it. I get a very good salary where I am. But my problem is — I do nothing. I am bored out of my mind day in and day out. There is no work for me. I just sit around thinking of things to do to occupy my time. This has been going on for almost 2 years now. I am desperately trying to leave to go somewhere else where I actually do work.

My problem is, I can’t get any other job. And it’s a two fold problem. Firstly, I am a senior IT guy. I am over qualified for level 1 support jobs. I also can’t afford the pay cut. But it seems that I am under qualified for other jobs at my level and especially senior jobs. I have been bombing one intervew after another. And the truth is, it’s becuase I haven’t done that much at the job I have been at.

I read books and attend seminars on other technologies. But at the interviews I fail. And I think it’s because I don’t have the real world hands on experience with the products. I just have the genereal overview of what the books teach. So the technical interviewers stump me when they throw real world scenarios at me that someone with my years of expeirence should be able to handle.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Signed: trapped in my job

Dear trapped:

Ok, so you’re getting to the interview stage but not getting the jobs?

Let me tell you two stories. First, there’s one about my friend John. John’s an HP-UX sysadmin for a local company. He’s competent, got his head screwed on straight, comes to work every the morning and always gets the job done. Great, except he can’t get a better job to save his life -in large part because his boss loves Windows and deprecates his abilities, doesn’t assign him to new projects, and doesn’t promote him to to his own colleagues. I’ve been telling him to quit for years, but he’s comfortable where he is because they pay well and it’s a "no suprises" job.

Secondly, I once argued that a group of employees at a Winnipeg company whose IT managers had left them trapped in the System 36/SSP world for at least a decade after the thing was widely recognized as obsolete should launch a Worker’s Compensation Board claim. They didn’t have the stomach for it, but I saw their inability to get work after the company went under more as management’s responsibility then as theirs: after all, they had done everything asked of them, but management had failed to take their career needs into account - and had, at least in my opinion, intentionally stuck with obsolete technology as a way of reducing turnover in IT.

I think you’re facing something similar: your bosses have to know you’re wasted in your present role, and their failure to do something about that borders, to my mind, on criminal dereliction because they have a responsibility to you. Unfortunately I’m not aware of anything in the law, on either side of the US/Canadian border, that bears on this so it is clearly going to be up to you to do something about it.

You’ve been trying to get out, getting the interviews, but then bombing out. You say this is because you fail the interview tests when they throw real world scenarios at you that you should be able to handle, but can’t.

I’ll bet you can and it’s the interview process and environment that’s throwing you off. Now the reason I say that is because there are really only two kinds of things they can throw at you in qualification interviews, and there are "always right" answers to both kinds.

The purely factual ones come up if you get into a position where you’ve gotten to the interview by claiming expertise and they want to see if you really have it. If, for example, you’re applying for a programming job with a Solaris software developer you’ll get questions like: "What does the def statement look like in Greenhills to use the SPARC SIMD instruction set?" (None needed) or "How would you structure a function, in Java, to compute the greatest common divisor of a pair of integers?" (a recursion: if (a == 0) return b; return gcd(a, b%a))

If you get hit with these, don’t babble: trust yourself enough to think it through before answering and if you really don’t know, say you don’t know and move on.

The real bottom line on these, however, is simple: if you don’t have the expertise, don’t apply for the job. And there’s a corolary: if you were competent with earlier generations of the tools the employer wants expertise on, say so up front. Tell them you were really good with K&R C on NCR Unix VR3, that you’ve read about and think you understand more recent developments but don’t have much hands on experience with that technology, and leave them the decision on what it means in terms of start-up costs on hiring you.

So what’s the always right answer to a question like: "Can you sketch a Forth program to verify an ATA drive bay for a SATA drive?" Honesty: don’t exaggerate your qualifications, admit what you don’t know, commit to learning, and sell what you do know.

The judgement/action interview scenarios are more management focused and are designed to see if you can use. or apply, specific technologies or ideas. For example: "How do you find and stop all unauthorized wired or wireless access from inside the company?"

You should know this has something to do with MAC address authentication, but you can’t know the specific technologies the employer has in place, the DHCP/Mac address policy for visiting laptop users, or whether they recycle network cards from failed PCs -so tell the interviewer about the things you don’t know, mention some software that does some of this, (e.g. Cisco does some of everything, usually badly -:) ) and talk sensibly about what you’d have to find out, and where you’d look for the information, before taking action.

Bottom line: you need to know what to do, and where to get the information you need on doing it with whatever technology the employer has or needs to get, but you do not need to know which IOS facilities to invoke or which buttons to push to do that.

None of this stuff applies to human interaction or judgement scenarios of the kind you get in management interviews: "Milly says she’ll file a sexual harrassment suit if you don’t get Rube to stop giving her the best assignments…"; but if someone posits a specific technical scenario and asks you for the solution steps, it’s always right to admit you don’t know - provided the job you’re applying for is genuinely within your range and you show that you understand the generic issue well enough to go about getting the job done.

So what’s the always right answer for these? "I don’t know, but I know how to find out and what issues to worry about."

Now all of this assumes you have a level playing field: the jobs you’re applying for are appropriate, your boss doesn’t secretly sabotage your efforts (I know one IT manager who makes it policy to badmouth current and former employees as a way of reducing turnover), and you’re not sabotaging yourself by doing something inappropriate -like bringing a Tadpole to an interview at Microsoft.

And that leaves you with two possible reasons for getting lots of interviews and no jobs: first, you really could have a skills deficit; and, second, you could be a victim of ageism or other prejudice.

The answer to a skills deficit is education and practice, the answer to prejudice is community.

If the job you want involves a technology you don’t know, or simply requires a facility you don’t have because you don’t practice enough - then go get the experience or education you need.

Volunteerism works well for this: go find a hospital, a community organization, or a political campaign that is big on needs, low on money, and go help them. Take responsibility: not "can I help with your website?" but "I’ve a got a web server, time, and commitment to your goals. Here’s what i can do to help…" They won’t put you in charge of the crown jewels (usually the membership list) on day one, but they’ll be results focused and you can earn their trust by being yourself, being honest about your goals, and delivering the results they need.

Remember, nothing will force you to stretch your technical skills more or faster than a bunch of unreasonable users whose satisfaction you actually care about.

Formal education can be valuable too, depending on what it is and how it applies. There’s a non obvious bit to this, in that SOX has made some useless certifications valuable again. For example, training certification in Oracle tuning may be pretty meaningless for you, but may meet an employer’s SOX control criterion. It’s sad but true, most American public companies are being forced by their auditors to prove IT staff certifications - so offering that kind of employer a bunch of certifications having nothing whatsoever to do with your job may be just the ticket for getting the job -not because they apply to your new job or actually mean anything, but because they’ll let your new boss tick off some boxes on an audit checkoff list.

Enrolling in long term professional qualification programs like Canada’s CGA or CMA programs can provide real long term value - look carefully at your own needs and abilities, decide what works, and then act.

Ageism, the belief that young people make better employees than the middle aged or older people, is rampant in IT. Few want to admit it, but most IT managers want to hire people who are younger then they are, who will not question their decisions, who fit into age and cultural groups assumed to be "Windows friendly," and who are perceived as willing to put in long hours for minimal non financial rewards. Remember, weak people hire weaker people - and the weakest people in the workplace are young, are under qualified, have trouble with English, or just don’t get socially involved.

The answer to prejudice in general and ageism in particular, is community. Look deep into the psyche of your average late twenties, early thirties, IT manager - particularly the Windows kind - and his deepest, most secret, fear will be of being found out as a fraud -and just the sight of your older face will trigger subconscious memories of negative judgements by parents and teachers.

Now, of course, the people who know you, know better -and that’s really the answer: get more people to know you, not as an older face, but as a "good guy;" as someone like my friend John, who’s got his head screwed on straight and gets the job done.

So how do you build a community around yourself?

From inside your present job you do it by finding a niche, and making yourself known for it. Do your colleagues use Windows? Great, set up Linux on your home PC and start teaching other people how to use it on theirs - become the go to guy for home Linux users in your existing community and square it with the bosses by doing it on your own time and gear.

Become an expert on something; it really doesn’t much matter on what. Find something you’re good at and enjoy, then become the local expert on it. Communicate your enthusiasm, and the community will build itself either around you or to accomodate you. Either way, you win -and they win too.

Getting involved with an open source project can help, but often doesn’t. The problem is that the internet both facilitates community building and takes away the value of locale - meaning that it’s like working from home: you’ll get lots of new contacts and learn a lot, but your new friends won’t actually know you and they’ll be spread across too large a geographical area to be value to you in job hunting.

Building communities outside work is much harder than doing it inside your current company or field. Volunteer work helps. Training and education are playgrounds for socialization. Join things, work at making new contacts.

Join a business card exchange (aka a professional group), and shake lots of hands while siding with majority views on the latest speaker: you know the game, go play it.

One option to consider is moving right out of your present job to one that forces you to build community. Know some recruiters? there’s high turn-over in their industry, so have them talk their bosses for you and become one: you’ll soon know every employer in town - More importantly, they’ll know you.

Communities beat prejudice by adding factual knowledge and creating social counter presures. Get to the interview stage in your job hunt with a community behind you, and your next boss will have heard good things about you before the interview - meaning he’ll go into it looking for a reason to hire you, not a reason to skip to the next file.

And did I mention that it helps to be lucky?

 

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Deruglation In Bahrain
jaba64@... 25th Dec 2006
Dergulation for VoIP in Bahrain is expriencing a check out, after the TRA has issued multiple licences the price war is so fierce and the new comers are not making any money.


Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
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Just pick something
Roger Ramjet 6th Apr 2006
and LEARN it. Take one of your projects that was created years ago, and re-write it using new technology (that's how I learned Perl, Java and now Javascript). Hang with the younger crowd and try to pick up on what's new. READ, especially tech news (HERE wink , Slashdot, The Register . . .).

Once you know the "lingo" (from the young'ins) and have a sample program IN HAND - go to that interview and knock em dead!

CAVEAT - In the "old" days, you could bluff your way into a job (say Java programmer), and if you were a quick learner - you could learn on-the-job, as employers ALWAYS give you some "ramp up" time. This MAY no longer be the case . . .
0 Votes
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slashdot??
hopefulcoder 13th May 2006
I would advice that you keep away from slashdot. The news there is mostly one sided and you might be brainwashed into believing that anything windows based is full of problem. Zdnet, cnet, register, and the countless blogs will help you keep up with technology
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Ageism in IT
jorwell 6th Apr 2006
Here in Germany it seems to be almost impossible to get a permanent IT job if you are over 40 (with the possible exception of SAP specialists, but not everyone is prepared make the pact with this particular emissary of Satan).

However no such prejudice seems to exist for contractors.

Contract work can lead to permanent work (even if you are an aged man of 45). Once people know you and know what you can do then you have a much better chance.
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Contract work.
Anton Philidor 6th Apr 2006
Here in the US consultants are hired to do what they have a proven record of doing. An older person can keep exercizing documented skills, but will probably not be able to demonstrate new ones.

Software and people are assumed to become obsolete simultaneously.
0 Votes
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However
jorwell 4th May 2006
Although the job market is orientated towards knowledge of particular products, the more observant and knowledgeable may have realised that this doesn't actually correspond to "skills".

The important knowledge to learn for long term survival (and sanity) is knowledge that isn't based on whatever products or fads the industry is currently serving up.

Oracle, Microsoft and IBM for example are continually bringing out new versions of their software but the basic principles of the relational model haven't changed. If you don't understand the principles then you will create a horrible mess no matter which product you use, or how skilled you are in its syntax and idiosyncracies.

Logic has been working for more than 2000 years and predicate logic for more than 100. No sign of obsolescence in sight.
0 Votes
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Youth movement
Anton Philidor 6th Apr 2006
Odd that a discussion of why younger people are hired made no mention of salaries. Or the cost of medical insurance. Or the likelihood of retirement not long after vesting.

The references to insecure Windows managers show Mr. Murphy's hand. There is a truth defracted: managers do often believe that new staff arrive knowing nothing but the vocabulary, and younger workers have less to unlearn.

These are strong, confident managers reinforced by their connection with a company having an ever expanding skein of victories. One who knows Microsoft products has the security of permanent relevance.
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Yes retirement is a question, however, not at the age of 40 or (in my case) 47. The cost of medical insurance doesn't fluctuate because it's a group policy and the charge is the same for each employee. Lastly, I don't know where you've been working but the places I've worked pretty much require you hit the ground running. That ramp up time is called employee orientation and takes about 2 hours. The IT world these days is fast and furious, if you can't cut it you're gone in 90 days.
0 Votes
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So how come
jorwell 4th May 2006
All the well paid jobs are using Oracle Applications or SAP and are running under Unix?
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All worked for me.

Patience, in that during the IT bust a few years ago it took nearly a year for me to get a job at a pay rate I could afford to accept.

Flexibility, I know a significant amount of stuff about a broad range of things. I'm not really an expert at any one thing, except to most users when it comes to getting a PC to sit up and beg. I'm a generalist. So look a bit beyond just plain old IT. I got dumped from a DBA/Network Admin position and ended up in a job doing a bit of statistics and application administration for a couple thou less than I was making previously. I've since passed that point on the salary scale; but straightline projection says I would have been making more if the old job had stayed stable (Ha!).

Self-Knowledge. You may think you know where you are weak. If not, then take some tests or re-read those job requirements and pick out the things you're not current at. In either case, like the article said, go out and get educated. All education is an investment.

Know what your bottom line living requirements are. If you're looking at losing everything because you set your sights too high and aren't being hired, then maybe it's time to make a lifestyle change.
0 Votes
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Find An it Jobs in Canada
Jabakhanji 4th May 2006
Dear sir,

My friend is a softswitch engineer and he will be imegrating to canada can you let me know any leads to how to find IT jobs in Canada?

Thank you,
Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
+ -
Deruglation In Bahrain
jaba64@... 25th Dec 2006
Dergulation for VoIP in Bahrain is expriencing a check out, after the TRA has issued multiple licences the price war is so fierce and the new comers are not making any money.


Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
+ -
Deruglation In Bahrain
jaba64@... 25th Dec 2006
Dergulation for VoIP in Bahrain is expriencing a check out, after the TRA has issued multiple licences the price war is so fierce and the new comers are not making any money.


Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
+ -
Deruglation In Bahrain
jaba64@... 25th Dec 2006
Dergulation for VoIP in Bahrain is expriencing a check out, after the TRA has issued multiple licences the price war is so fierce and the new comers are not making any money.


Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
+ -
Deruglation In Bahrain
jaba64@... 25th Dec 2006
Dergulation for VoIP in Bahrain is expriencing a check out, after the TRA has issued multiple licences the price war is so fierce and the new comers are not making any money.


Joseph Jabakhanji

PBI ME
0 Votes
+ -
haifa
omirza 7th May 2006
lol
0 Votes
+ -
haifa reply
omirza 7th May 2006
lol reply
0 Votes
+ -
haifa reply2
omirza 7th May 2006
22
0 Votes
+ -
haifa reply 3
omirza 7th May 2006
eadfsdfas
0 Votes
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Cry me a river.
johnsmith222 17th May 2006
Your problems are nothing compared to being a CS (grad in Dec 2006) student with no work experience trying to get a job relevant to the field. You're getting interviews to botch. Many people in my position are not even that lucky.
0 Votes
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You are surrounded by users and fellow IT workers that all 
have needs for services. They either need reports, or help
finding their way through complicated systems - in any case to
them it's a real problem.

Make people around you aware that you have time and ability to
solve their IT problems. Soon you will have plenty to do and if
you're lucky one of those problems will be a goldmine of
valuable work.
0 Votes
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nice site
akber_amin 3rd Jul 2006
nnice inforamtion about blog and interrrresting
0 Votes
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Get Involved
toddwade 5th Jul 2006
I have one thing to add - Have you made a list of the questions being asked to you by the interviewer and then reviewed the questions you are giving?

It might be handy to review your questions/answers with another fellow IT person to get some objective feedback. Good Luck
0 Votes
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Message has been deleted.
slack9999 Updated - 20th Jul 2006
0 Votes
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Academics
Carmeneutron 4th Nov 2006
Paul,
An exellent response to the issue. I received a good education on many accounts from reading your response, thank you!

My issue is a bit different, yet I am confident you can point me in the right direction. I am an older female, 39, who has had a 15 year career chasing neutrons (I studied Nuclear Engineering in college). I have recently steped away form that career into that of a BD Exec for an IT company. Previously, I dabled in Visual Basic and C++ to model neutron flux, etc., but have NO OTHER IT experience. I'm operating in a vacuum here.

I sat in on a meeting between my boss and a very large customer and found that I understood nothing and therefore could contribute nothing to the discussion. I've always said to my daughter,when teaching her math, the most beautiful 3 words you can say is "I don't know" because it enables you seek and acquire the knowledge. I've asked my employer, repeatedly, to give me titles on a few good books about the technical aspects of IT so that I can begin to educate myself. I simply have no time to enroll in a college course, and I have found that I consume data at a higher rate on my own than in a classroom setting.

This is a long way of asking if you would please recommend a few good books that would give me a good overall lay of the IT land and one or too that is more of a technical nuts&bolts books. I have taken Calc I, II, III; Differential Equations I&II, and Partial Differential Equations...so that may help you assess my ability to internalize the books you recommend...although I am old now and it's been a while wink
Many, many thanks in advance!
Carmen

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