GM: 'Stand by. We're about to spam you.'

Summary: This showed up in my inbox today and after you've had a chance to look at it, I'll tell you why it's really disturbing. First, GM has correctly identified me as a GM customer.

This showed up in my inbox today and after you've had a chance to look at it, I'll tell you why it's really disturbing.

First, GM has correctly identified me as a GM customer. We own a GMC Yukon and a Pontiac Vibe. The former, we're very happy with. The latter? I took GM to the Better Business Bureau because the paint was too easily chipping off and the local dealership refused to cover it. The case was transferred to the BBB's corporate headquarters for handling, and as luck would have it, the key processes that BBB's Web Site says the BBB uses to guarantee the impartiality of the outcome of a case were somehow violated.

For example, GM sent its own inspector to our house to examine the chipping paint. That inspector found that the paint was improperly applied. We thought that was it. We would get our car repainted. Instead, GM decided that the inspector it sent didn't know that he was talking about. So, the BBB allowed GM to send another inspector. Funny how the second inspector found in GM's favor.  

In the hearing, GM claimed that my wife commutes an unsually long distance to work on unmaintained roads. They made it sound like she drives the way you see a lot of four-wheel vehicles (the Vibe is an all-wheel drive vehicle) being driven in commercials. 99 percent of her 39 mile commute (39 miles is unusually long?) is on route I-95: one of the cleanest and well-maintained roads in the area. The car has never been in an off-road situation. 

Then, after the hearing is over, each party (us, and GM) is allowed to send to the BBB a final statement and rebuttal. So as to guarantee impartiality, neither party can see the other party's final statement/rebuttal until both have been submitted.  Both parties are given the same deadline and we were told if we miss it, then we cannot submit a rebuttal. After the deadline passed with no response from GM, I double checked with the BBB's representative to make sure GM would not get to see what we wrote until they submitted their own response (just same way we couldn't see GM's until we submitted ours). Via e-mail, the BBB confirmed.

Then, suddenly, the process was modified. GM was given more time to file their report and the excuse that was given was that GM used all of their allotted time "to suppress the findings" of their own technical expert and therefore needed more time to file a rebuttal. Since more information had come to light on our side, we asked if we could have the same time to submit an ammendment to our own rebuttal. We were turned down.

So we waited to see GM's rebuttal.

It was taking so long that we thought something fishy was up. Every day, I'd say to my wife, "I'll bet you anything GM has a copy of our rebuttal." Sure enough, when GM's final statement came in, it included specific references to our rebuttal.... references that could not have been made unless they saw our rebuttal before submitting their own. 

We had been thoroughly cheated in terms of the BBB's guarantee of impartiality and it came as no surprise to us when GM won the case (by the way, when you take your case to the BBB, you have to release the BBB from any liability associated with the outcome of the case). 

GM is a major supporter of the BBB. We found reports on the Web of other Vibe owners who had similar problems. Given who was involved, how they sent inspectors, etc, GM probably spent more time, money and effort fighting us than it would have cost to fix the paint. We drew our own conclusions.  You can make yours. 

So, first we will never buy another GM vehicle again. Period. That's one reason e-mails like this that call me "a valued GM owner" are so disturbing. If I was so valued, GM would have fixed the paint that was coming off my car and would not have pulled out every stop possible (including supressing the testimony of the expert witness it supplied) to keep us from getting our car fixed. 

Second, I was happy to see the proverbial "opt-out" link at the bottom of the e-mail to make sure I don't get any more e-mails from GM.  Unfortunately, as you can see from the partial screen shot below (where I'm supposed to be able to opt-out), GM's subscription management system has no record of me as someone that's already on one of its e-mail lists. In other words, since there's apparently nothing for me to opt-out from (by unchecking a box), I can't opt-out (even though I'm getting e-mails). Just in case the system is case sensitive, I tried entering my e-mail address using a couple of different renderings. One mistake here is that the newsletter doesn't clearly state the e-mail address it was sent to (a must have for all such e-mails). 


Topic: Browser

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  • Companies...

    Unfortunately, large corporations should take care of their customers better than they do. This is a case where the company wants their way and doesn't want to fess up to their problems.... *sigh*

    The real disturbing part of this case is the fact that the BBB blatantly made it so GM had access to the rebuttal and was not unbiased in this situation. It really causes me to lose faith in the BBB.
    Alkora
    • faith...

      At least you had faith to begin with. I've never trusted the BBB or the idea of a "BBB certified business." I think in reality, it's kind of like a "protection" racket, you 'pay' to be protected by the BBB or the BBB will shut you down. Just a thought.
      semirgofsalem@...
    • And look where it's getting them?

      I owned a Chevy Cobalt (new) for a total of 7 months before I got rid of it. I got rid of it at 12km's. I couldn't deal with all the issues I was having. Although every part was serviced... I got tired of domestics. I haven't looked back since. I now own a CRV and a CIVIC (all bought in the last year).

      I won't even step onto a domestic car lot anymore. Too many horror stories of crap vehicles, with crappy service, and crappy warranty.

      On the other hand.. My extended warranties (I know for a lot of people it's a waste but for me... I've had too many domestic lemons in my time that I'm leary even though I know it's more reliable). Of which I already used it on my CRV with a flat tire.

      GM, Ford, Chrysler all wonder why they are losing marketshare to their competitors. They are trying to market service over reliability now.. Problem is.. If you're in service every 2 weeks with a new car.. No amount of free service is going to leave you with a good taste in your mouth.

      DOMESTIC SUCKS!
      ju1ce
      • You're lucky

        I currently have two GM products and find service is a joke at the GM dealership(s). We're dealing with St. Louis, so not a small city with limited dealerships. This one dealership is one of 15 that one person (or Corporation?) owns -- from all GM makes, Ford, Mazda, Toyota, etc. Two problem lights came on, called dealership and am told I can make an appointment for some 5 days away to DROP OFF the car -- not a service appointment but just to leave the car. If I had to take the car in practically every two weeks as you allude to then I'd be making the appointment at the time I pick up the repaired car and hoping it'd hold together til the next appointment. After the dealer had the car for 36 hours I got it back; the workorder indicated a total of 1 1/2 manhours (book rate) had been expended on the repairs, mostly on "reprogramming" various systems and repairing a loose connection. Both cars are below 45K miles, so we're not dealing with decrepit vehicles.

        I've found local small owner shops are much better at fixing vehicle in timely fashion, at somewhat lower price and you can establish a rapport with those dealers.

        I just wish I had my original 1955 VW Bug, all 36 HP, on which I could actually do most of the normal tune-up type maintenance.

        GM (and probably other brands as well) have yet to learn from the adage "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it" and they're repeating it to their own disadvantage.
        pfriswo@...
      • My first new car was a Chevrolet Vega.

        Remember those? I told myself I'd drive it until the wheels fell off. Sure enough, 48,000 miles, the engine fell out. American Industry,where quality costs too much and you can always find a new customer to replace the one who never comes back.
        Just Watching Now
  • And they wonder...

    It's funny how the american auto industry is losing ground to foreign makers and they just can't seem to figure out why. I admit that I grew up with GM cars, trucks, and vans, but now that I am grown up, GM doesn't have much to offer. Even their best engineered and most energy efficient vehicles don't come close to Honda or Toyota. Sorry GM, but you've been beat.
    semirgofsalem@...
    • I wonder...

      If they'll do it now that they may actually "get attention" to this issue that a "reporter" is bringing to light the problem.

      They don't need more negative press.. Then again, it is their arrogance that got them in the position their in, in the first place.
      ju1ce
    • Ford is little better

      We were a Ford family since dad bought his first one in 1960. No more. First they got into style over substance with the revived Mustang. Then they quit selling the Taurus/Sable, a car that people actually wanted.

      Now they wonder why they are on the ropes. A far too expensive labor force building cars that aren't competitive and have for too crappy quality. Stick a fork in Ford, it's done.

      Really like my '02 Hyundai Santa Fe ...
      Too Old For IT
  • Don't forget about regulatory agencies

    I had a major problem with AT&T recently and in addition to the Better Business Bureau (who, by the way, was able to get the quickest action as compared with the writer of this story), also contacted the Federal Trade Commission (which I would have suggested this writer contact), the Federal Communications Commission, and the public utilities commission for my state. Now, I know my situation was for a telecom, but there may be other similar groups that can be used to put heat under GM's feet. Make a noise!
    chas_2
  • Isn't the Pontiac Vibe basically a Toyota?

    Isn't the Pontiac Vibe the same as a Toyota Matrix? Doesn't the Vibe have a Toyota engine and powertrain? Aren't both cars produced in the same plant? Don't both cars share the same Toyota-produced color and paint options?

    I'm no big defender of GM. They are going the direction they are for a reason. But if I were to pick the villan in this episode, it would have to be the BBB. They were the ones that violated their policies.

    Shame on GM for fighting this rather than trying to turn you into a valued customer. Shame on the GM dealer for not taking up the fight for you. But most of all, shame on the BBB for violating their own practices.
    mike_mccluskey@...
    • Sort Of...

      The Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix are essentially identical and built at a plant which is a joint venture between GM and Toyota.

      Although they share the same body and powertrain, the paint and trim suppliers/options may or may not be identical (and it's doubtful GM or Toyota would ever tell).

      The main difference is the corporate cultures of the two companies: GM interest in the customer stops after the sale is made; Toyota (while not perfect) is far more likely to work with a customer to solve an issue such as a bad paint job.
      g-man_863
      • Agreed

        The problem is not so much the defect, but how the company responded to it.

        I had a transmission go out on my Toyota MR2 just after the waranty had expired. I figured I was screwed, but the service manager at the dealer said he had never seen anything like this failure and spoke to the regional Toyota rep about it. The rep agreed and Toyota replaced the tranny at no cost to me. That response paid off for Toyota. I am on my third Toyota since the MR2.
        GrumpyOldMan
  • Opt-Out

    I've run into a similar opt-out problem with Astralwerks Records. Somehow I'm on their mailing list and their opt-out link conveniently is down every time I click on it. makes me want to throttle someon....not really though.....

    Sorry about the car though, doesn't sound fun
    chrispey
    • Do what I do...

      send it to /dev/null ]:)
      Linux User 147560
  • David, sorry to hear you got screwed...

    but what do you expect out of a corporation that has the kind of power they do? It's almost too late now for people to wake up to what has been happening in this country with corporations and the power they wield. Your best bet (although you will probably lose that one as well) is to take it to another court. I don't believe double jeopardy applies here (I could be mistaken).

    Bottom line, when trying to get a corporation to admit they messed up and fix it... unless you have a large class action suit that can sustain a legal fight, you're screwed. And the we let it happen. ]:)
    Linux User 147560
    • We're screwed ...

      These are the same corporations that outsource any job that rises to the level of middle-class wages, all the while paying premium pay to the guy who sweeps the floor.
      Too Old For IT
  • GM Opt-out

    I got one too; but you have to check all the options (all the models) you DON'T want mail from and THEN click "submit". That takes you off the list.

    I wasn't amused either; I would expect their phone lines are lighting up this morning.
    lynngi2@...
  • The Right Call: Don't Ever Buy From GM Again, and Don't Trust the BBB

    You should make an effort to post this story everywhere you can (car review web sites, general review web sites like Epinions, and scam/rip-off report sites), and to get it picked up by every search engine.

    You should also make sure to get it indexed on the BBB as well as on GM and on the Vibe - if the BBB is really the incredibly biased and bought off organization you say it is, their logo and participation in the BBB are worth less than nothing (not only unhelpful, but actively deceptive since membership does not indicate either fair and reasonable business practices or participation in an impartial dispute resolution process), and organizations that are paying to use that logo need to find someone else to represent consumer friendly business practices. (Perhaps we need a new Actually Fair Business Bureau.)
    CommSoft
    • BBB sucks.

      I have presented several complaints to the BBB over the last 2-3 years and in all cases.. as long as they get SOME answer from the company then they are happy and call the case resolved. Even when I complained that the answer was not valid or that it did NOT resolve my problem, etc they basically said TUFF and "case closed".
      My prev GM experience was similar "no support". My last GM was a Fiero and my treatment from GM sent me to FORD who has gone above and beyond on several repairs over 10+ years.
      SO,
      Whatever GM and BBB get out of this .. THEY DESERVE !
      frobert
  • Some header legwork....

    Examine all headers of the GM spam email and you should be able to acertain exactly which variant on your email address they're sending their spam TO. Unless you've got some brain-dead email client that won't let you view those headers unadulterated.

    MY Practise for the past decade & a half has been to include a SUBADDRESS in any addresses I share with anybody. Note my address with Tech Republic: jlw+tech.republic@psulias.psu.edu -- that way the harvesters either gag on the address because they can't handle an address that's been legal since the RFCs were written, or they'll happily parrot back to me the origin of the address they're using.
    jlw+tech.republic