OpenDocument Format community steadfast despite theatrics of now impotent 'Foundation'

By | November 29, 2007, 1:17pm PST

When in mid-October 2007, the OpenDocument Foundation (ODf, yes, that’s a little “f” that’s not to be confused with the OASIS- and 400-member strong OpenDocument Alliance-backed big F-ODF: the OpenDocument Format) announced that the World Wide Web Consoritum (W3C)-backed Common Document Format (CDF) was the heir-apparent to what it believed was a dead-on-arrival OpenDocument Format, many confused the ODf to be one in the same with the ODF and the latter to have one foot in the grave. Given the striking resemblance between the names and acronyms of the Foundation and the Format, that mistaken obituary was an easy one for casual observers to write. Especially given the way Microsoft, the company whose Office empire is probably more threatened by ODF than most people realize, capitalized on the confusion by spreading its own FUD on the story.

But that and other FUD couldn’t be further from the truth. Based on dozens of interviews that I’ve conducted over the last few weeks, the OpenDocument Foundation, whose three principals are Sam Hiser, Gary Edwards, and a legal eagle who goes by the nickname “Marbux,” went out on a very thin limb where no one else — not the vendors behind ODF, not OASIS (the consortium that hosts the technical committee responsible for the standard’s development), and not the World Wide Web Consortium (chaperone to the Common Document Format [CDF] standard) — was willing to join them.

Not only does it appear as though they were on a thin limb with their opinions that ODF should be buried and that CDF should take its place, they crawled out even further when they publicly disclosed that the W3C and IBM shared those opinions as well. Any statements corroborating the ODf’s position from either organization, particularly IBM given the millions of dollars it has invested and continues to invest in ODF, could very well have cast a dark shadow on the productivity document standard that just recently earned its stripes as an international standard from the International Organisation of Standardisation (ISO). It’s an honor that Microsoft’s competing Office Open XML (OOXML) has so far been denied (but it is up for reconsideration next year).

Citing specific interactions (conversations, emails, etc.) with the W3C’s lead contact for CDF Doug Schepers and Doug Heintzman, director of strategy for IBM’s Lotus Division (where IBM’s collaboration technologies are developed), Edwards claims that both organizations were supportive of his and Hiser’s belief that, at the expense of ODF, CDF should be the strategic target for anyone seeking to store their documents in a file format that was universal, open, and that provided a clear transition path from formats that predispose or lock customers into certain applications like those (formats, applications) from Microsoft.

It is true that Edwards and Hiser interacted with both the W3C and IBM. Unfortunately for them however, this is where Edwards’ and Hiser’s recollections of those interactions varies wildly from those of Schepers (W3C) and Heintzman (IBM).

One thing that’s important to keep in mind about how standards are set (and how decisions are made in technical committees at consortia like the W3C [CDF] and OASIS[ODF]) is that the process often involves vociferous debate among those involved. To the extent that many of the participants who contribute to technical committee meetings are also employees of vendors with some interest in the standards associated with those committees, part of their roles in the process is to represent those interests. Since not all vendors’ interests are aligned, disagreement and debate comes with the territory. They’re to be expected. But so too is a willingness to compromise. At some point, in the name of progress, everyone who participates in the standards setting process knows they may have to give-in on certain issues that may be of import to their employers.

Representing the OpenDocument Foundation, Edwards and Hiser were both participants in the Open Document Format technical committee work at OASIS and respected ones at that. But somewhere along the line, their beliefs regarding ODF and CDF could not be reconciled with the positions of the other committee members. Pretty much everybody I spoke to agreed that this was one of those disagreements that happens in the standards setting process where someone wasn’t going to get their way. It happens. It’s a part of the process. But what happened next is not nearly as common. Claiming that the OpenDocument Format wasn’t nearly as “open” as its supporters claimed it to be, the ODf walked off in a huff.

If IBM or Sun, two of the OpenDocument’s Format’s biggest supporters walked away in such a “huff,” it probably would have meant the end of the OpenDocument Format. But in the bigger picture of the OpenDocument Format, between its backers at both OASIS and in the OpenDocument Alliance, the OpenDocument Foundation’s irreconcilable differences with the rest of community were just that: irreconcilable differences that lacked any potence to affect the momentum or direction of the Open Document Format. Unfortunately for the OpenDocument Format community, the ODf’s “huff” was a molehill that became a mountain when, in addition to the ODf<>ODF naming confusion, Edwards and Hiser not only became very vocal about their convictions (convictions that are voluminously documented in easy to find passages around the Web), they cited the W3C and IBM as having tacitly endorsed those convictions.

This is where Schepers (W3C) and Heintzman (IBM) as well as others in both organizations feel as though Edwards and Hiser are grossly misrepresenting the content of their interactions. According to W3C spokesperson Janet Daly, when Schepers first heard of the Foundation’s interest in CDF, he did what the W3C often does — he reached out to the Foundation with an invitation to further the conversation. According to Daly, “Any time it looks like a third party may be doing interesting work with one of our recommendations (that’s W3C-speak for “standards”), it’s not unusual for us to want to learn more.” But this is where the W3C’s account of that “conversation” and Edwards’ account differ. Whereas the W3C viewed the “conversation” as par for the course outreach, Edwards’ e-mails to me describe the ODf’s interactions with the W3C as more of a relationship that had to be kept secret from OASIS. Wrote Edwards to me via e-mail:

….When the Andy Updegrove published his article (W3C’s Chris Lilley: CDF Not Suitable for Use as an Office Format Can’t Replace ODF), a member of our team sent a copy of earlier eMail exchanges with our W3C contacts to Updegrove arguing that Andy’s article mis-characterized both our relationship with the W3C and, the work we were doing with CDF and WICD. All of which is true.

There were however a couple of problems with this action. For one thing, we were not authorized by our W3C contacts to share these discussions with anyone, let alone the lawyer for OASIS who had already declared a hostility to anything the Foundation might do….

….I hope you can understand our reluctance at this point to discuss this issue in detail or provide evidence certain to compromise the positions of innocent and sincere bystanders.

The implication of Edwards’ note is that the conversations with the W3C had matured far beyond a level of basic outreach and involved a relationship that saw merit in the Foundation’s thinking about CDF as a better strategic format for universal document interoperability than ODF.

The W3C however has a different version of its interactions with the Foundation. The reference to Andy Updegrove’s interview with the W3C’s Chris Lilley (who is also intimately familiar with CDF) is significant. In that interview, Lilley flatly rejected the idea that CDF should be the target in the world’s search for an open, universal file format for productivity applications:

So we were in a meeting when these articles about the Foundation and CDF started to appear, and we were really puzzled. CDF isn’t anything like ODF at all – it’s an “interoperability agreement,” mainly focused on two other specifications - XHTML and SVG. You’d need to use another W3C specification, called Web Interactive Compound Document (WICD, pronounced “wicked”), for exporting, and even then you could only view, and not edit the output.

The one thing I’d really want your readers to know is that CDF (even together with WICD) was not created to be, and isn’t suitable for use, as an office format.

In a subsequent e-mail to me, Sam Hiser argued that the Foundation’s words had been twisted and that it never suggested that CDF would take the place of ODF. However, in both e-mails to me and posts to the Web, Hiser and Edwards have made it clear that the day that ODF-supporter and Massachusetts CIO Louis Gutierrez resigned was the day that ODF died, in their estimation. In his e-mail to me, Hiser wrote:

It’s unfortunate you’re pointing to the Updegrove|Lilley statements. They are as confusing as can be…Right about now Andy’s bloated corpse may be floating down [Boston's] Charles [River] and Chris [Lilley] is doing his best to shade for his W3C colleagues his 180-degree incorrect statements.

On November 10th, in a public thread on the OpenDocument Fellowship’s Web site, Edwards wrote:

Chris Lilley’s comments are in direct opposition to those we received a week ago from Doug Shepers, the head of the CDF Workgroup. doug however asked that we not publicise his comments until Sir Timothy has had a chance to weigh in.

In my interviews, not only does the W3C reject the reference to W3C director Sir Tim Berners-Lee as a fabrication of the facts and stand behind Chris Lilley’s statements 100 percent, the W3C also remains emphatic that its conversations with the Foundation were never more than cursory in level. In fact, at one point when technical information was e-mailed to Schepers, Schepers purposefully ignored it.

Why?

It didn’t take many patent infringement lawsuits for the standards consortia industry to wisen up. To prevent patents from inadvertently becoming part of a standard (thereby entitling the patent holder to royalties), standards consortia now require a full intellectual property (IP) rights disclosure before anyone will even look at some potentially patented or copyrighted technical material.

If Schepers or any other W3C staffer laid eyes on such technical material prior to such disclosures being made and cleared by the W3C’s general counsel (Danny Weitzner) and, later, some W3C standard coincidentally ended up with a similar technology in it, the IP holder to that technical material could claim that the W3C saw its patented technology and willfully infringed on it.

As said earlier, the W3C isn’t the only organization claiming that Edwards and Hiser have misrepresented certain conversations and exchanges. Via e-mail on November 19th, Edwards wrote to me:

On November 8th, 2007, Sam and I conferenced with IBM’s Doug Heintzman. Doug laid out IBM’s “grand strategy”, as well as expressed his concerns that CDF might be damaged by the ODf communities public hostility to the Foundation.

The IBM “grand strategy” turns out to be CDF+ (using multiple profile variations) to connect ODf desktops to the IBM Cloud of web platform Notes Hub, SaaS, HaaS, SOA and Web 2.0 collaboration services. The key is connecting desktop Lotus Symphony ODf documents to the IBM Cloud using fluid ODf <> CDF+ conversions.

We found this strategy to be very cool and very resonant with our own thinking. Like IBM we were also very concerned about the Exchange/SharePoint juggernaut. Unlike IBM though, we think the marketplace is unable and unwilling to tolerate the disruptive costs of replacing MSOffice with ODf alternatives.

Back to the aforelinked thread on the OpenDocument Fellowship’s site, Edwards wrote:

[Sun and IBM] have been arguing for years that CDF is the way to go. Today IBM admitted to us that ODF is a transitional field format only. They know that CDF is the future, and have spent enormous resources positioning WebSphere, Lotus Notes, and the Eclipse Community in that direction. ODF is a transitional desktop play only.

If what Edwards was saying was true about CDF being the linchpin to IBM’s “grand strategy,” then the OpenDocument Format’s strategic viability could easily be called into question. One day earlier, under the heading Document Format FUD: A Guide for the Perplexed, OASIS ODF TC co-chair and IBM staffer Rob Weir blogged his own thoughts on what had been publicly said and wrote:

So, does IBM then oppose CDF in favor of ODF? …..No. IBM supports both the development of ODF and CDF and has a leadership role in both working groups. These are two good standards for two different things.

Since Weir was obviously prepared to speak on IBM’s behalf about its roles in ODF and CDF, I asked him about the “grand strategy” that Edwards suggested was a part of IBM’s master plan. That’s when Weir suggested I talk to Heintzman, but not without writing:

Lotus Symphony supports ODF as its native file format. It doesn’t support CDF and we have no plans to support CDF in Symphony.IBM participates in the W3C’s CDF activity, as we participate and support many W3C activities. But we don’t see CDF and ODF as operating in the same space. They are two different markups for two different purposes.

Not completely satisfied by this answer, I followed his advice and went to Heintzman. Weir spoke of the ODF support in Lotus Symphony. But what wasn’t clear was whether ODF was strategic in IBM’s thinking about Web-based documents, or whether CDF might have a role there instead. In his e-mails, Edwards has insisted that, whereas Microsoft’s Office Open XML is designed to support documents on the Web as well it supports documents on the desktop, that ODF isn’t nearly as robust. In order to loosen Microsoft’s grip, argues Edwards, CDF will have to play a role.

But in a telephone interview, Heintzman, who remains confounded by Edwards’ version of their conversation, flatly denied that CDF has a role in some IBM master strategy:

I sat down with them, said we’re all on the same side. Our interests are aligned and I gave them some advice on how to move the industry in the right direction. I told them a bit about our emerging strategy, beyond Office, the importance of semantic layers and compound documents where we see things evolving to. But they dramatically misinterpreted and misrepresented what we said….

…ODF has a level of sophistication for rendering office documents that CDF doesn’t pretend to. We know what CDF is, we chaired the [W3C's] CDF committee at one point. But they are apples and oranges….

…Gary and company had a technical disagreement with the OASIS ODF Technical Committee. Other members voted that their approach was not reasonable. It’s a normal part of a healthy standards process….If Gary and company want to move on to greener pastures and invest in other parts of industry, then more power to them. But to position ODF as transitional is ridiculous. He got two things confused.

Heintzman went on to describe IBM’s vision whereby a compound document architecture like CDF serves as a container for something that he hesitates to even refer to as a document. In his eyes, the container is more like a mashup of information coming from all sorts of different sources many of which are deeply intertwined with business process. One bit of that information could come from a range in a spreadsheet that itself is formatted in ODF, but that only a small portion of which is relevant to the information being mashed together in that container. Other bits of information could come from database queries, business processes, sources of video, audio, etc. Where something like CDF could be relevant, says Heintzman, is in the semantic layers that live on top of the content. For example, security: who has the access rights to edit the spreadsheet data or change the database query. Said Heintzman:

In our vision, the containers (documents) become much more intimately ingrained into a business process: You’re not creating a document, but rather completing a mortgage application. The container will have bits and pieces of feeds, videos, and information coming from some back-end Siebel or SAP system and multiple people will interact in real time with different parts of that container. There will be a content layer and specialized sub-editors being able to manipulate the information in that layer — one of which could be an ODF-based editor to the extent the content is coming from an office document.

There will be a semantic layer for the semantics of authorship and approval and it may include content semantics so that the container can be tagged manually or automaticaly through pattern recognition and fingerprinting. This would enable searching and discovery in ways not doable before. A lot of this goes beyond what office document editors can do today, but that doesn’t mean that [the role of office document editors] changes.

What’s CDF’s role in this? It’s really hard to say at this point whether it will be CDF, Xforms, or something else that becomes the meta-container. These are young days.

Heintzman also made it clear that nothing he knows of in the container space he referred to offers the kind of fidelity that a office document format like ODF offers and therefore, IBM remains fully committed to the OpenDocument Format indefinitely. When I asked Heintzman to size up that commitment in terms of dollars, he said it was hard to put a finger on it. But between the programmers, researchers, consultants, lobbyists, and lawyers who are heads down on ODF, or have just part of their time allocated to it, the expenditure is easily north of $5 million per year and the company has no plans of slowing down any time soon.

So where are we?

Well, for starters, any insinuation that the OpenDocument Format is dead, hurt, or even scratched is just pure FUD. The people behind the OpenDocument Foundation have clearly participated in the OpenDocument Format’s evolution in a meaningful way that has earned the respect of their contemporaries. But to say that the loss of their involvement or their changing opinions about the long term viability of the OpenDocument Format are in any way a reflection of the direction that the OpenDocument Format is taking would be mispeaking. The Foundation’s closure and departure from OASIS can’t even be characterized as a splintering of ODF the way Unix splintered (or the way Red Hat and Novell’s treatment of Linux could be considered a splintering). In the big picture, it’s a non-event.

As for the differences over what was said, I don’t want to say anyone is a liar. I wasn’t in the room or party to the relevant threads. So all I have to go on is what everyone on both sides of the debate is telling me. I can repeat that here (which I’ve done) and leave the decision as to which one of the three following things is true to you: (1) Hiser and Edwards are accurately representing their interactions with the W3C and IBM and the people they communicated with like IBM’s Heintzman and the W3C’s Schepers are part of a well-organized conspiracy to discredit them, (2) Hiser and Edwards are purposefully misrepresenting the content of their communications, (3) it’s all a big mix-up — an honest misunderstanding.

Where there’s more information to be had to help you make that decision, the Web is very liberally sprinkled with opinion over the matter. A lot of it comes from Gary Edwards and Sam Hiser who, at the very least, feel very strongly about the validity of their approach to document portability and interoperability. In everything they’ve written to me and on the Web, they argue passionately about why they really believe CDF is strategically the world’s best option as a strategic universal document format. I’ve purposely left most of the technical arguments out. At this point - they’re opinions. Today’s not the day to vet the merits of the different approaches. I promise to come back to that at some point (perhaps in 2008). Today, I just wanted to get to the bottom of the he said/she said and, to the extent that more facts are needed, my sense is that additional information will come to light once I press the publish button. That is after all the beauty of the blogosphere. The mob usually finds the truth, eventually. Someone will be vindicated.

Finally, in doing my homework for this story, I thought I’d draw attention to one glimpse of the future that I found to be fascinating.

At the beginning of this post, I pointed to a blog written by Microsoft’s Director of Corporate Standards Jason Matusow who was clearly seizing the opportunity created by the ODf<>ODF controversy to undermine the OpenDocument Format Camp. Don’t fault him. To the extent that the ODF community loves to take shots at Microsoft, he has a job too and he’s doing it well as evidenced by headlines like Formats, Formats, and more Formats….some say there should be only…except the other one…and that one…and the new one…and…<sigh>. Matusow is a sharp guy and I have a lot of respect for him, especially after my last podcast interview with him.

But towards the end of his post, there was something he wrote that caught my eye:

All of this seems to make the point stronger than ever that when you are speaking about document formats, you are really speaking about an adjunct technology to the applications which are the real “solutions” in this discussion.

After re-reading that statement several times, it dawned on me how very different the thinking appears to be at Microsoft versus IBM. Matusow sees the application as the real solution. True to form, Microsoft is a very application centric solution provider. But in my discussions with IBM’s Heintzman, he told me:

I can have multiple people interacting with a container — some through a tiny Web browser gadget that can get cells from an ODF spreadsheet and others who are specialized people with different tools for affecting different parts of the document.

In fact, in everything Heintzman told me, IBM’s strategy sounded more information-, business process-, and people-centric than it sounded application centric. I was vaguely reminded of a blog I posted last year about knowledge/information centricity vs. document centricity. While it speaks nothing of the implementations (Microsoft’s solutions could easily turn out to be more knowledge-centric than IBM’s), I think IBM is using the right language and Microsoft would be well-served by de-emphasizing “the applications.” Long term, applications as we know them are dead and the functionality we associate with applications today will simply be a part of the data we’re interacting with tomorrow.

 

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Oops (on those)...Sorry
dberlind 4th Dec 2007
Doh, Don't ask me why I said "common"....I heard "compound" at least 100 times in those interviews and still wrote "common." Sorry about those and thanks for the clarifications Doug.

db
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Wow!
swhiser 29th Nov 2007
David-

Thanks for the large effort here.

At least the Spanish like our style.

-Sam
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Great job, David
Ole Man 29th Nov 2007
Thanks for digging a little truth out of the muckety-muck.

Mucking is more of a muck-mongers malingering manipulation of many malignant minds. The muck just oozes out of them.
when trying to get approval for OOXML as an OSI standard. Is that next February that is the last chance to get the fast track approval?

But, I would also like to see more investigation into all of the dirty tricks that MS pulled on the last OSI vote, and all of the problems that has caused, such as not being about to get a quorum for voting on other things.

Well, we DO understand that you can not report on everything . . . . . .
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Oh, that is right. They are all good, honest people with absolutelly NO hidden agenda!
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What dirty tricks?
johndrinkwater 2nd Dec 2007
Please, citation required.
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My opinion is that both views are in effect looking at the same thing.

Using a car engine analogy, both wants to sell you a car engine. IBM sees the whole car engine as a process, asking people to contribute little programs here and there (spark plugs, cam belt etc).

MS sees the whole car engine as an mega application, and spark plugs/cam belt as applications inside the applications.

In other words, its simply calling spark plugs/cam belts by other names.

IBM's style can alienate suppliers, because it implies you are just a small and replaceable thing. By calling the same thing an application, MS's style gives suppliers the ego boost needed.

But when communicating with others on a broader level than buyer-supplier relationship, IBM's style is better. The IBM engine like a process, implying it is replaceable. The MS engine is a mega-application, implying lock-in and cannot be replaced.

Catch 22, isn't it?
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Not the same thing at all
cduffy 30th Nov 2007
...and here's the difference:

The document-centric view supports user-created applications. The application-centric view means that the document format is built around a single application vendor's needs, without ease-of-modification outside of that application as a goal.

I'm a toolmaker. I support a team of developers by building tools that help them do their job better -- not large tools, necessarily, but pieces that fit in where they're needed, add some glue here or there, on the like. Of the positions I've held in my professional life, it's what I like to do best.

Tools frequently need to interact with documents -- but when a document is built around a single application, it's more often than not opaque -- and when it isn't opaque, it frequently has cached information which makes it difficult to modify by third-party tools, meaning that I as a toolmaker can't improve my company's efficiency by making tools which interact with those documents.

It may never be as easy to operate on an OpenDocument spreadsheet as a CSV file -- but I'll take them over OOXML any day, because the standard has enough sanity to it that I can write tools that interact with them cleanly. Why is it cleaner to interact with OpenDocument files than OOXML ones? Well, there are a bunch of specific technical and design decisions that were made during the standards' drafting -- but I'd argue that the root cause of those decisions being made the way they were is the difference between document- and application-centric philosophy.
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Not even close
Yagotta B. Kidding 30th Nov 2007
Getting away from the automotive analogies, consider a law office:

Application-centric: it's all about WordPerfect, MSWord, the networking, the user interface, etc.

Document-centric: it's all about the motions, briefs, replies, declarations, affidavits, etc.

Means vs. ends.
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Very sad
kozmcrae 30th Nov 2007
Thank you David. I think your well researched and informative piece will help to put the kibosh on this festering controversy. I followed the work by the ODf for a while. I think they had a lot of ideas and insight to offer. But it almost appears as though the CDF was used more as a launching point for the ODf and its principals' careers than it was for the good of ODF. It's a sad tale. I sincerely hope that Gary Edwards, Sam Hiser and "Marbux" will put their considerable talents to work on other projects that find their way into the public good.
David -

Excellent article, well-researched.

Two things spring to mind:

First, when there has to be an article saying, "No, wait, you thought it was dead and it isn't dead yet..." uh, it's dead.

Second, during the 1990's and early 2000's, you could tell it was spring when all of the UNIX vendors (and I include all of the *NIX) got together and announced that no, really, they're going to consolidate on a single standard this year. There's just something in people with UNIX DNA that makes them claim to want open standards, and then pout when the standards don't quite match what they want (which is always benevolent and for the good of all mankind, of course) and then go create their own implementation anyway, at the expense of a common platform. It happens every time. And I mean every time. Linux.org lists 393 different distros... if that doesn't make it clear then nothing will.

If you hear someone in UNIX or open source saying that they've just come to an agreement about an API standard or document format or anything like that, just nod politely and say, "That's nice" and ignore them. The "agreement" won't last beyond the next build... never does.

I prefer to hitch my wagon and my career to one company with one vision and one technology platform that continues to improve and innovate over time. I'm not saying that choice is right for everyone... I'm just saying that I have business to do, not standards to sort through, and guesses to make about which distro is the best, and that works better for me.

Just learn from history about this sort of thing... ODF was dead-on-arrival not because it's a better or worse choice than OOXML (I have no idea which is better, really) but because the nature of those with UNIX DNA never allows these kinds of "open" agreements to succeed. They all just splinter. Every time.
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Standards in the UNIX world
cduffy 30th Nov 2007
SBArbeit -- I'm not sure that your concerns are valid.

Your concerns about fragmentation in the Linux world are not necessarily well-founded. There are two (2) serious Enterprise Linux distributions right now -- RHEL and SLES. If you want a commercial product with vendor certifications, those are your choices. I don't see deciding between them any harder than choosing whether to buy new workstations with Vista or XP.

As for the idea that open standards don't last in the Linux world, recent history simply doesn't bear that out. The LSB is respected by all the major Linux distributions and most of the minor ones; both enterprise distributions and a great many minor ones use RPM as their packaging format; everyone uses ELF as their binary format these days; and so forth.

To be sure, there are interesting new developments going on -- Ubuntu has promise, for instance -- but if you want to work with a company which will be doing the same thing 10 years from now, you could do considerably worse than Red Hat. (Mind you, I don't use Red Hat -- we deliver a black-box solution, and made a decision optimized for that environment -- but if you want a single vendor with a consistent direction, there's one out there).

If you'd like to discuss this further, I'm charles@dyfis.net.
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...and re point 1...
cduffy 30th Nov 2007
First, when there has to be an article saying, "No, wait, you thought it was dead and it isn't dead yet..." uh, it's dead.

Is that to say that OOXML is dead, too? There've been articles written talking about how the initial fast track vote failure didn't in fact mean that OOXML was dead, after all.
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A standard is not the same
Ole Man 30th Nov 2007
As prostrating oneself before one powerful
master.

Until you do a detailed study of what a
standard is, you are only skinning your
ignorance by speaking on the matter.

Thank you for your input. It has been filed
to it's proper location. The trash can.
You said:

I'm just saying that I have business to do, not standards to sort through, and guesses to make about which distro is the best, and that works better for me.

Define "best." When you go with something supported by only one company, you disable your ability to make choice. There's more to best than implementation. For example, price. Standards enable switching. If you develop an addiction to one supplier, that supplier can double the price of your products and who are you to argue? You can't switch. That supplier is in charge of your IT budget, or at least a part of it.

Off the discussion of price, you're addicted to one supplier, you can't switch, and suddenly, the product becomes insecure. There are more secure products on the market, but you can't switch to them.So, you must wait for your supplier to fix the security problem according to what's convenient for them. OK, now, who is in charge of your IT security? You, or your supplier?

You can extrapolate this to other parts of your business, if you want and suddenly, who is in charge of your business? You, or your suppliers.

Standards put you in charge. You may have complete lack of faith in them and the process, but every day, more than you may realize it, you are relying on standards to get you through the day. Not just IT standards. And all of them have given you choice that you should covet.

David
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I mostly agree. Let me clarify...
SBArbeit 30th Nov 2007
David -

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate your thoughts here. It's obvious that I'm talking about Microsoft, so let's get that out of the way. happy

It's not that I don't think there should be standards; I'm all for having standards. And Microsoft continues to do a better and better job of implementing and supporting many of the standards that exist out there, particularly lower on the stack. Their conformance to RFC's and ISO's and all the rest is more and more baked in to their products. That doesn't mean that they don't compete and differentiate in places on top of that... just that they understand more than ever before that interoperability is the entry fee for competition in an increasingly server-based world. The more you dig into the behind-the-scenes info of developers' blogs and http://Channel9.msdn.com, amongst other places, the more this is made clear about what's going on in Redmond. If they weren't doing this, I would be extremely uncomfortable using their products in 2007, for many of the reasons you cite.

The point I do want to repeat, though, is that standards or agreements amongst the UNIX crowd is not traditionally a strong suit. The ODF/CDF controversy is simply the latest instantiation of a pattern that I've observed over my 25+ years of programming. I'm really speaking more about disposition or psychology than technology here. There seems to be a susceptibility, in those who participate deeply enough in UNIX/Linux or open-source that they actually understand the source code, to splinter at the first occurrence either of a disagreement about feature set or about the utility of a new contribution. And this seems to be a classic case of that. First, they participated in and supported ODF. Then, a few people came up with what they thought was a superior open format, CDF. Then, when the other team members didn't see things their way, they split off. This is how we have around 400 distros of Linux, isn't it? And that doesn't count the UNIX variants over the years.

To me, this speaks to one's perspective on creating technology. I love writing code, let me be clear. But the question to me is: am I writing that code to serve a purpose, or simply because it fulfills a whim or a deeper ego need? Does the code exist in a vacuum or in a larger context? I like Microsoft's perspective on that continuum: they generally write code to serve a function and create value in a larger context. Sometimes they miss, but that's the fundamental perspective and purpose. My feeling about the UNIX/open people is that they frequently write code without a deeper view on the use of that code. If they did, I think they would seek compromise more often, not just say "screw it, I'll do it myself" as often, and we wouldn't have such a long and, in my mind, sorry history of the splintering of these kinds of efforts over the years. I wish they could get together, I really do. It would be better for the industry. Instead, I'm left reading reviews of Ubuntu / Solaris / OpenSolaris / SuSe / Red Hat / AIX / Debian / Slackware / Kubuntu / Mandriva / Fedora -- and I'm forgetting probably a dozen other "major" variants -- and installing all of them and trying to figure out what to do about it. Or, I can devote that time and energy to delivering value to the company in which I do IT. It's maddening... and if it's not maddening to someone reading this, I have to wonder about our different ideas of the role of IT in today's world. Does that make sense?

I appreciate the geek factor in it, I really do (I've written Assembly on three different platforms in my life), but I get paid to deliver value and forward motion. I've always felt the one-step-forward-two-steps-back of the splintering part of our industry, and I just shake my head sadly at this one.

If one happens to be opposed to Microsoft "winning" the battle over open document XML schema, don't get angry at them for proposing a spec... get angry at those who can't agree on what to support in its place, and get involved. It's an complex and important issue, and an interesting one, too.

Anyway, I hope that's a better, more focused, fuller explanation of my perspective on this particular controversy, and on these types of controversies that I've observed over the years. I realize that I've made some generalizations here (it's a message, not a book) but I trust that you'll understand where I'm coming from.
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Operating Systems vs the Web
schepers 1st Dec 2007
Hey, SArbeit-

You cite examples with operating system standards, but that's really only applicable when you control your whole food chain. You can run your entire shop on Windows, where the content creators and consumers are known quantities. And when you need to communicate outside your shop in some way beyond email (that's a standard), you can always convert your MS Office doc to ASCII (hey, that's a standard, too) so the guys on Mac or Linux can read it. Maybe your argument even applies to office software... dunno, that's not really my interest or area of expertise.

But it sure doesn't apply to the Web. Without open Web standards, there would be no Web as we know it... there would be CompuServe's Web, and AOL's Web, and CompanyX's Web. You'd be making your choice(s) of service provider (and their browser) by which Web community you wanted to reach.

You seem to misunderstand what CDF is (which is kinda surprising, since David explained it well in his article). It wasn't done in response to ODF, or OOXML, or with office apps in mind at all. CDF's WICD specification is a Web format, for Web documents, not some office format. That's been confused in the press, but I hope after David's article, it will be more clear.

Do people making standards disagree from time to time. Well, yes. And I agree with your larger point that the end-user experience is where the rubber meets the road. But I think your generalization to all of standards is inaccurate.

I guess you're reading this reply in IE... that's great, I wrote it on Firefox. Good thing we have open Web standards.

Regards-
Doug
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Obviously
Anton Philidor 30th Nov 2007
The failure of the latest version of Microsoft Office to sell proves Mr. Berlind's point that "applications as we know them are dead".

And it also proves that how people interact with the computer, convenience and efficiency, are not significant because "the functionality we associate with applications today will simply be part of the data".

There will be no uniquely satisfactory solution because standards will enforce that all applications must deal with the data only within limits inherent in the format.

Yes, the death of innovation and responsiveness to customers is possible. But I'll assert that most buyers think of data as far secondary to applications, that the formats should contribute rather than limit. Users are not concerned with formats, but with what appears on their screens.


Quoting:

"While it speaks nothing of the implementations (Microsoft???s solutions could easily turn out to be more knowledge-centric than IBM???s), I think IBM is using the right language and Microsoft would be well-served by de-emphasizing 'the applications.' Long term, applications as we know them are dead and the functionality we associate with applications today will simply be a part of the data we???re interacting with tomorrow."


IBM's "language" of course assumes that the most popular application can be obviated. It's an implication of the company's commercial strategy. And Mr. Berlind's discussion seems an endorsement of that strategy.
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Re: Obviously
criderja 30th Nov 2007
You are only partially right with your assertion that "Users are not concerned with formats, but with what appears on their screens." I will agree that this is true for most users as long as their chosen application remains supported. But some people have become more aware of the importance of formats, and I expect that to increase with time.

Most people who have been using PCs (and in many cases, other classes of computers) for more than 10 years are likely to have files around that they can no longer access (or they've given up and deleted them) because the application is no longer supported and there isn't a decent translator available, or they're in the position of trying to keep an obsolete application running long after support for it has ended. (I personally know at least one person who still struggles to keep WordStar running on Windows XP because there isn't time to learn a new application and recreate files used almost daily, and because the format is not open, there are no translators that can handle a lot of the features used in those files.) And then there are the many people who have been forced to upgrade to newer versions of Microsoft Office much earlier than they wanted to because they have to share documents with others who are using a newer version and Microsoft has changed the format in the newer version.

It will probably take a few more years, but I think eventually anyone who needs to retain any electronic documents for longer than a few years is going to realize that a truly open format is the best (and maybe only) solution. How much longer it will take for them to realize that OOXML is not truly open (despite the name and Microsoft's rhetoric) is harder to predict. Unfortunately, for many it will probably only happen after Microsoft dies (which will almost certainly happen eventually) or Microsoft decides to end support for OOXML, whichever happens first. Of course, at that point, it may be too late for them to salvage many of their files.
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Compatibility
Anton Philidor 30th Nov 2007
Your argument is predicated on the assertion that Microsoft is unconcerned about or at least ineffectual at assuring customers can continue to use older software and associated formats.

Note that you make the assumption formats are tied to software; you're implicitly rejecting Mr. Berlind's idea that what the software does will in some way be tied into the data. At least for Microsoft. I agree with that assumption.

No_Ax has more than once made the contrary argument, that Microsoft has hobbled its products by being too concerned with backward compatibility. I think the company will reduce complexity by making backward compatibility an almost free-standing application. But the point is, the company does pay attention to the problem you discuss.

One of the results is a series of version readers and converters from one Microsoft format to another. Also, competitors have, to be viable, found ways to read Microsoft formats. I expect there is little relevant software which entirely ignores Office outputs.
The functionality may not be perfect, but it is often effective.


Within a reasonable time frame, say 50 years, which would you prefer to see on an old hard drive, a format from Microsoft or a format which was never in widespread use?

Which format is better documented will be arguable, but the continued availability of software able to read the Microsoft format is far more certain. With so many copies of so many applications in circulation, the odds are substantially better.

A de facto standard is likely to be readable for a long time.
And that's what makes all your spinning so
obvious, Anton. Anybody with two brain cells
to rub together knows that Microsoft's
motives are to make more (and more and more
and more) money. They don't give a flip
about anybody's customers (including you),
as long as they keep coughing up the dough.

Do you really think that your efforts at
further confusing the already confused
public by transposing, extrapolating, and
interpolating such words
as "standards", "formats",
and "applications" are beneficial to anyone?

I propose that your motives are the same as
Microsoft's for doing what you are so good
at.... making more (and more and more and
more) money. Exactly where you fit into the
puzzle or what your connections are, I don't
know, but I can tell you, bub, you aint
pulling the wool over everybody's eyes and
you aint blowing smoke rings up everybody's
butts with your elegant oratory and devious
devices.
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Nor are you, Ole Man
GuidingLight 2nd Dec 2007
but I can tell you, bub, you aint pulling the wool over everybody's eyes and you aint blowing smoke rings up everybody's butts with your elegant oratory and devious
devices.


Nor are you. Your overly simplistic view of MS and anyone who uses their products is more then enough of an indicator that you somehow derive money from a competing technology or agenda, and therefor much (if not all) of what you post is done for no other reason then to point up potential customers to the platform where you earn yo living.

So money does comes into play within your posts also, you just omit that little tidbit, correct?
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Ho ho ho, the yoke's on you
Ole Man 2nd Dec 2007
I care not one whit what anyone uses. If you
enjoy the punishment, by all means, stick
with Microsoft. They will appreciate your
loyalty every time they virtually kick you
in your teeth. Masochists are fine with me,
as long as they don't try to inflict their
pain on me (or my friends).

I do what I do for fun. I enjoy exposing
greedy corporations and selfish lackeys who
support them to the unsuspecting public.
There may not be many, but a few innocent
citizens read these posts.
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Not endorsing any one strategy...
dberlind 30th Nov 2007
I endorse what serves ZDNet's audience members most. I made it clear in what I wrote that while I like the language IBM is using, that speaks nothing of the implementation... that maybe Microsoft's implementations will deliver on the language IBM is using better than IBM will.

I believe it *is* about the information, the people, and the process.

David
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Obviouly not
theo_durcan 3rd Dec 2007
Yes, the death of innovation and responsiveness to customers is possible. But I'll assert that most buyers think of data as far secondary to applications, that the formats should contribute rather than limit. Users are not concerned with formats, but with what appears on their screens.

Only fools are concerned solely but whats appear on the screen. Company X, my client ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT DATA & file formats, they want to be able to open current data and documents in 10 years, and they dont want to have to pay/upgrade 3 times before being able to open what they have now. This is just common sense.
EVERYBODY, at all levels, governments, businesses, professionals, content creators, publishers, etc, are concerned abour file formats and standards.
We allready know the MS approach to this (we owe your data), that approach dont work (beside for MS stockholders, partners and PR army).
So the world will chose OPEN, unrestrictely supported standards. FUD and spinning (congrats, youre very good...) is just noise. We know common sense and general interest will prevail.
BTW, communicating through TCP/IP and related standards... (macOSX, firefox).

Pablo
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Small Clarifications
schepers 1st Dec 2007
Hi, David-

Thanks for your sober summary to a subject that's been blown way out of proportion. I have a few small clarifications.

CDF stands for Compound Document Formats, not Common Document Format. But CDF is the name of the Working Group, not the standard, so it's not clear what "supporting CDF" would mean. The standard that the CDF WG is making is called WICD, as you note.

Also, I wouldn't say I ignored their email... I did reply, explaining to them the reasons you cite.

I would like to pass off this whole kerfuffle as an honest misunderstanding on their part, and perhaps overenthusiasm. But in any case, the productive way to create and implement open standards is through sound technical contributions and collaboration, not blog posts, innuendos, and news blitzes. The W3C is an open standards organization (I myself contributed for years as a developer and later as a member before recently joining the team itself), so there's no reason not to get involved directly, if your aim is to help improve the Web.

Regards-
Doug Schepers
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Instead of arguing about who said what when, let's just go to the record and see exactly what the W3C's Doug Schepers said to us in an eMail introducing himself. Keep in mind that we did not contact the W3C or Mr. Schepers. The following eMail was most welcome, but entirely unsolicited.

from: Doug Schepers
to: sam.hiser@opendocument.us,
gary.edwards@opendocument.us,
date: Oct 31, 2007 12:40 AM
subject: Compound Documents Format WG Liaison

Hi, Sam and Gary-

I'm the W3C Staff Contact for the CDF Working Group. We've been watching the blogosphere and press explode over your recent comments and support regarding the CDF framework.

We'd like to thank you for your interest, and your consideration (Sam, in your blog) and praise of CDF and the W3C. We are glad to see you embracing our shared vision of a royalty-free, open, interoperable presentational and logical format. Of course, CDF is designed primarily for the Web, but we see no reason it cannot serve the dual purpose as part of an office interchange format.

This is just a friendly note to start a dialog rolling. As you know, we are hard at work on our test suite, and we'd like to get your input on that, and on what your use cases and requirements for the format are. We're also interested in your implementation.

We look forward to hearing back from you. We'd like to continue this conversation by email or teleconference (and you're welcome to join us at our meeting in Boston next week, though that's probably short notice for you).

Regards-
-Doug Schepers

W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI

We responded to this kind and considerate introduction with our own message of gratitude for the fine work that went into CDF and gallery of related W3C technologies.

In the aftermath of the Andy Updegrove - Chris Lilley - IBM effort to discredit us, we received another eMail from Doug Schepers. This time we read it as a kind and considerate effort on Doug's part to find some neutral ground and put the media mess behind us. Or so we thought. Play the tape:

from: Doug Schepers
to: Gary Edwards ,
Sam Hiser ,
date Nov 12, 2007 10:14 PM
subject: CDF and WICD

Hi-

As you probably know, CDF and WICD have been published as Candidate Recommendations, which means that W3C considers that they satisfy chartered technical requirements and now invites implementation experience. We would welcome your own implementation experience, and/or the opportunity to evaluate your da Vinci plug-in with the WICD test suite [1]. Strong implementation experience is a prerequisite for advancing the document to Recommendation status.

As promised, I've posted a FAQ for CDF and WICD, which you can point to for clarification [2]. I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion in the press.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/TestSuite/WICD_CDR_WP1/

[2] http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/cdf-faq.html

Regards-

-Doug Schepers

W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI

So what happened here?

Personally i think this all about IBM trying to close off the exits after their disastrous OpenDocument Interoperability WorkShop held in Barcelona Spain at the OpenOffice Conference. But that's just me. I've been working on ODF interop issues long before IBM even became a member of the OASIS ODF TC.

(For those interested, IBM joined on April 14th, 2005 - just two weeks before ODF 1.0 was approved by OASIS and sent on to ISO as DIS 26300. I was with ODF from the beginning and throughout ODF 1.0 /ISO 26300 development, November 2002 - April 30th, 2005)

One of the more interesting attempts to discredit us involves Andy Updegrove's intentionally mis characterization of what we actually do with CDF WICD Full. We are not using CDF+ as a native read-write application file format as Updegrove and Lilley imply. We use CDF+ as an in-process conversion of MSOffice documents. Yeah, it's an export !

Just like MS-OOXML and ODF are conversions in every application claiming to implement those file formats. No one uses either ODF, MS-OOXML or CDF+ as a native in-memory-binary-representation, or native read-write format. The claims of Updegrove and Lilley are hapless attempts to discredit us by threading the needle and confusing the uninformed.

Yes, we do replace ODF with CDF+ as our conversion process target for MSOffice applications. Without the needed interoperability enhancements (iX) to ODF, we cannot complete the high fidelity mapping required by governments seeking to use ODF within existing MSOffice workgroup business processes. And before the uninformed jump on this statement, keep in mind that any attempt to merge ODF and MS-OOXML, or otherwise convince Microsoft to join the OASIS ODF and implement ODF, will no doubt result in what might be a thousand pages of application specific "compatibility enhancements and extensions" . We only needed five generic elements to get the job done.

We can however pull this off with CDF+ (WICD Full desktop profile).

Here's the point everyone misses, intentionally or not. We are very enthusiastic about the beautiful conversion of ODF documents to that same CDF+ WICD Full profile. ODF was designed exactly for this kind of fluid conversion. The thing is, once ODF is converted to CDF+, many if not most of the problematic interoperability problems disappear. This includes interop problems between ODF applications as well as interop problems with MSOffice apps.

Our thinking is that the parallel conversion of MSOffice binary and xml documents and, the very fluid conversion of ODF documents to the same CDF+ profile could end, as far as consumers are concerned, the current document wars between ODF and OOXML.

The idea here is to let the desktop applications do what they have to do. There is simply too much application specific legacy baggage on both sides of the war for us to strike a meaningful compromise - even if Microsoft and IBM wanted to (which they don't). By converting to a CDF+ desktop profile like WICD Full, the desktop interoperability problem is pushed up to the web platform where it actually can be "meaningfully" resolved. And resolved without any dependence on the impossible cooperation of big vendors more interested in trying to competitively position their information stacks.

Hope this helps,
~ge~
You and a few of your accomplices, like
Anton for example, are aspiring to obfuscate
and change ODF, which is a free and open
established document format. You are unhappy
because the world at large is not forced to
prostrate themselves before Microsoft in
order to use the format (ODF).

No amount of spinning, exaggeration, and
confusion injected into a discussion of
smoke and mirrors can prevent the facts from
being exposed.

Give it up, already!
Why would any ODF supporter want to tell 550 million MSOffice users that they have no other choice but to transition their documents, applications and processes to MS-OOXML?

Please, explain that to me.

If you don't provide the great herd of 550 with a means of converting their existing documents to ODF, what is it you expect them to do? You leave them no choice but MS-OOXML. And that's the problem we are struggling to address.

We tried to do it first with our ODF iX subset of ODF. That was totally rejected by OASIS ODF TC. Compatibility with existing MSOffice documents is outside the ODF Charter and out of scope for current work.

Now we are trying to do it with CDF+. Admittedly the CDF+ solution pushes the point of interoperability up to the web platform level where ODF CDF+ documents would have a much higher quality of interchangeable with MSOffice CDF+ documents.

If this approach serves to keep the great herd of 550 from transitioning to MS-OOXML and the long term lock-in of the MS Stack, why not give it a try?

At this point, with pilot disasters piling up in Massachusetts, Belgium, and Denmark, and the MS-OOXML specific Exchange/SharePoint juggernaut moving rapidly into monopoly status, we're kind of running out of time. The marketplace is crying out for alternatives to the MSOffice MS-OOXML Exchange/SharePoint stack core. Yet, the ODF Community insists on only offering the great herd a costly and very disruptive 'rip out and replace" alternative to the juggernaut.

The only thing you're really offering the 550 is the accusation that Microsoft refuses to implement or enable the conversion of existing MSOffice documents to ODF. The 550 need real world solutions not more rhetoric and blame.

Of course the conversion of MSOffice documents is difficult. Microsoft has gone to great lengths to make it that way. They also are refusing to cooperate in any way. This leaves us with two choices; either governments and consumers rise up and demand anti trust action forcing the Redmond recidivist reprobate to cooperate, or, developers knuckle down and figure out other ways of freeing the great herd from the reprobates grasp.

These are stark choices. The ODF Community has bet the farm on government mandated - anti trust success, and see any attempt to work around the MSOffice barriers as damaging to their arguments. The thinking seems to be that as long as governments and consumers are caught between the rock of Microsoft refusal to cooperate on one side, and the hard place of ODF refusal to meet the file format compatibility needs of the 550 on the other, governments will have no choice but to turn to strong anti trust measures as the only solution.

It may interest you to know that we fully supported the anti trust - mandate approach right up until we hit the wall in Massachusetts. The May 2006 RFi was a clear signal that governments are not willing to pay the highly disruptive cost of "rip out and replace" . Nor are they able on an individual basis to push through the anti trust measures that should have leveled the beast years ago.

Meanwhile, the ODF Community has made it clear that they don't like ODF plug-ins that artificially extend the life of MSOffice, and they are not about to make the compromising file format compatibility concessions either. They've also made it clear that no other solution to the dilemma the 550 find themselves in be proposed, discussed or ever see the light of day. Even if the solution is a W3C technology able to resolve the desktop application to application interop problems in a very elegant and sweeping way, albeit a web platform oriented way.

Our involvement in Massachusetts put us in direct contact with CIO's from all over the world. We believe that unless an ODF plug-in approach is able to meet the high level demands of MSOffice bound business processes, these CIO's will authorize the use of the MS-OOXML Compatibility Pack plug-in as a means of transitioning to MS-OOXML. The ODF Community has yet to offer them no other choice but MS-OOXML.

To us, this is tragic.

Worse, the ODF Community somehow thinks they are winning; that CIO's are going to pay the disruptive cost of "rip out and replace" ODF alternatives. And if someone dares disagree with this group think, the peasants with pitch forks are turned loose, guaranteeing that no one in the future will dare question the wisdom of the mob.

Sorry, but closing off the exits is not a solution that meets the needs of the marketplace. Argue the anti trust aspects of this and you have my full undying support. Arguing that the 550 should simply swallow the disruptive cost of trying to convert their documents, applications and processes to ODF is nonsense. This will not happen.

Our proposal for using CDF+ and the web platform as means of solving the desktop document wars is not going to go away. The conversion of ODF to CDF+ is a conversion made in heaven. The conversion of MSOffice documents to CDF+ is a bit more problematic, but doable. Getting the documents from both ODF and MSOffice desktops up into the cloud, where users can take ownership of information and information processes, with unprecedented interoperability, is a good thing. Even if the ODF Community and it's IBM led "rip out and replace" enthusiasts think otherwise.

So brace yourself. We are not going away.

~ge~

Please keep in mind that the da Vinci plug-in is a clone of the MS-OOXML Compatibility Pack Plug-in. We use the exact same internal conversion process and therefore do not have any need whatsoever for the Microsoft secret binary blueprints. This factor puts us at odds with prominent ODF vendors who believe that governments can be compelled to invoke anti trust measures forcing Microsoft to reveal the secret binary blueprints.

Even if this did happen, we don't believe it would be of much use. The MS binaries have always been a moving target. The question people should ask is, "How does Microsoft keep track of these moving targets?"

Answer that question and you'll understand how da Vinci and the MS Compatibility Pack plug-in works.
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Are you out of your mind... no, make that
you are out of your mind.

ODF supporters are NOT telling MSOffice
users anything. Stop your pathetic efforts
to put things in Open Source's mouth to hide
your deceitful efforts at hiding Microsoft's
devious efforts to replace a worldwide free
standard document interface with their own
proprietary interface that requires
prostrating oneself before Microsoft in
order to use it.

You are exposed!
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Maybe that's the problem. MSOffice users are certainly looking to the ODF Community for solutions, and all they get is silence? Reminds me of exactly what happened in Massachusetts.

How does that help ODF? How does that solve the dilemma of the 550? They can't convert their documents to ODF without intolerable loss of information, and all they get from the ODF Community is silence on the issue?

(Not that i agree with your characterization - i think MSOffice users get a bucket full of accusations and demeaning comments. The silence you suggest ole man might be welcomed by many who have been relentlessly dissed for not being able to walk away from Windows).

In a perfect world where the rule of law prevailed, anti trust would have been invoked long ago forever busting up the Redmond reprobates. But this isn't a perfect world. If mandates and anti trust measures fail, what then? Do you have a back-up plan?

We do. It's called CDF+ and the Web Platform. And yes, it is about W3C technologies and an open Internet vs. the emerging MS Stack that is noticeably lacking in any reliance on those same open web technologies.

While you're focused entirely on the existing desktop monopoly, another MS monopoly is quietly taking shape as important business processes are transitioned over to MS-OOXML, Exchange/SharePoint, MS SQL SErver, and MS Active Directory Server. This core will connected to MS Live, MS Dynamics, and MS Office Communications Server. MS-OOXML, XAML and the .NET Libraries lead a new wave of MS Stack dependencies designed to deliver interoperability across the emerging desktop, server, device and web stack of applications and services.

MS-OOXML is quite unique in that it was designed as an advanced information container useful across the entire MS Stack. We believe that an ODF CDF+ container model can compete against this capability. But unless and until someone builds a bridge that the 550 can cross, transitioning their information and processes from MSOffice to ODF CDF+, there really isn't an effective way to stop this new monopolist push from threatening the entire open web.

Silence isn't a solution my friend. It's an invite for Microsoft to take all the mashed potatoes.

~ge~
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ODf
bssnyder@... 1st Dec 2007
Given Mr. Hiser's espoused hatred of all things M$ - which I agree with - I find the timing of his switch to supporting CDF rather than ODF somewhat troubling.

I seems to me that it would have been much better to wait until AFTER the next ISO vote on OOXML in February to announce this switch. Announcing it 4 months beforehand can do nothing but increase the FUD concerning ODF, thus actually AIDING M$ in their quest to have OOXML approved as an ISO standard. OOXML needs to be blown out of the water once and for all as a viable "open" format, and anything an open source advocate does to help M$ in anyway whatsoever seems very contradictory.

I wonder if Mr. Hiser could please explain that?
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Silly...
No_Ax_to_Grind 1st Dec 2007
ODF will be a memory in a couple years.
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Explain
bssnyder@... 1st Dec 2007
Please explain how your think this will come about.
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Bottom line, once MS XML is a standard all of this will disappear like smoke in a wind.

Naw, you don't need to agree or even believe it, just watch what happens.
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"just watch what happens"
Ole Man 1st Dec 2007
I'm sure your audience will be happy to see
you fall flat on your face, once again, as
usual.

Some of them may even cheer for you, but
five'll get you ten the boos will have it.
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Axe_Of_Confusion
johndrinkwater 2nd Dec 2007
You tend to post an awful lot about how OOXML will succeed, yet you still cannot remember it?s acronym, which either shows ignorance or incomprehension. It is indeed a schema of XML from Microsoft, but it?s not referred to by that. Try MS OOXML or OOXML.
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Explain
bssnyder@... 1st Dec 2007
Please explain how this will come about.
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Thanks
Sheeva 3rd Dec 2007
I took the time to read through this whole entry and found it quite interesting regarding the he said / he said (there's no she here) threads. However, the most interesting of all was indeed your last few paragraphs, "But towards the end of his post, there was something he wrote . . .". I have closely watched both IBM and MS over the last few years and have drawn the same conclusions as yours - that IBM uses language reflecting the real nature of evolving technology, i.e. knowledge, business, social; whereas MS centers all around it's applications whether desktop or SaaS. The key has always been, "what can I get out of the internet interaction" as opposed to "what applications do you want to use today to get to the internet interactions you need". At the end of the day, this is reflective of the business change that IBM made a while ago in regards to not being so application intensive but rather, service oriented. MS's initiatives have and are more directly tied to their "product" model and not in service.

In my eyes, IBM has been leading in the Open Source Open Standards arena, MS on the other hand has been the rock tied to the drowning man's leg. Someone once wrote, spoke, whatever, that looking at MS today is like looking at IBM in the late 1980s - bloated, self important, slow and future less. Is MS going to be able to make the necessary change from myopic self interest to being progressive with future visioning? History will be the judge.
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Oops (on those)...Sorry
dberlind 4th Dec 2007
Doh, Don't ask me why I said "common"....I heard "compound" at least 100 times in those interviews and still wrote "common." Sorry about those and thanks for the clarifications Doug.

db

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