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The Ed Bott Report

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Fixing Windows Vista, one machine at a time

By | April 21, 2008, 8:03pm PDT

Summary: At first glance, Jeremy Toeman’s Sony Vaio is Exhibit A in the case against Windows Vista. When he bought this gorgeous machine in May 2007, the disappointment started almost immediately: it was slow to start, sluggish when performing everyday tasks, crash-prone, and overloaded with annoying and unwanted software. But is it really a hopeless case, or was this system done in by a sloppy OEM integration? In this post and its accompanying image gallery, I’ll give you a close-up look at what I had to do to turn Sony’s messy, half-baked Windows installation into one that was worthy of their excellent hardware and that took full advantage of the new features in Vista. And then I’ll share some of the lessons I learned about how Sony and its rivals can win their customers back.

If the “Vista sucks” movement has a public face, it’s the Sony Vaio. No one knows that better than my new friend Jeremy Toeman. In May 2007, this 15-year Windows veteran replaced his old, beloved, XP-powered Vaio with a newer Vaio that came with Windows Vista Business installed. Practically overnight, he told me, his experience went from “awesome” to “awful.” The experience was so terrible, in fact, that after several months of struggling he finally surrendered, putting his $2500 Windows notebook in storage and replacing it with a MacBook last summer.

At first glance, Jeremy’s machine is Exhibit A in the case against Windows Vista. As Jeremy documented in a series of posts, this gorgeous machine was ugly in action: slow to start, sluggish when performing everyday tasks, crash-prone, and overloaded with annoying and unwanted software. But is it really a hopeless case, or was this system done in by the rush to market and a sloppy OEM integration?

My instinct and experience says that even under these extreme circumstances, Windows Vista can be fixed. That’s why, for the past two months, Jeremy and I have been collaborating on an experiment. After he sent me his Vaio in early March, I blew away all traces of the old installation and set up a pristine copy of Windows Vista Business, with up-to-date drivers and zero crapware. (This screen shot, from the accompanying image gallery, shows the blizzard of dialog boxes and icons that are part of the original, unpleasant experience.) The initial results were eye-opening and impressive. After my makeover, this machine was every bit as fast as its specs said it should have been.

Out-of-box experience with a Sony Vaio and Windows Vista

Around the same time, Sony sent me a brand-new SZ770N Vaio, also with Windows Vista Business installed. The new model is in the same series as Jeremy’s machine, and physically nearly identical. Not surprisingly, the CPU and graphics processor in the newer unit were both significantly faster than last year’s model. Over the next two weeks, I played with both machines, switching between the original factory images and my own clean installs to see where the differences lay.

In this post and its accompanying image gallery, I’ll give you a close-up look at what I had to do to turn Sony’s messy, half-baked Windows installation into one that was worthy of their excellent hardware and that took full advantage of the new features in Vista. At the end of this post I’ll share some of the lessons I learned about how Sony and its rivals can win their customers back.

Meanwhile, both units have left my office - one returned to Sony, the other sent back to Jeremy in the Bay Area. So you don’t have to trust my observations about the differences in performance and overall experience. Over at his LIVEDigitally blog, Jeremy just posted his impressions (short version: ” At long last, after 11 months, Ed Bott has turned my $2500 Vaio laptop into a usable computer”), along with an accompanying video that is truly must-see TV. His advice to “the PC manufacturers who are failing to deliver consumer-ready products” is spot on.

Page 2: Getting through a clean install

Page 3: Is the cleanup alternative worth it?

Page 4: The device driver snipe hunt

Page 5: Lessons learned

Next –>

More from “The Ed Bott Report”

Topics

Sony Corp., Sony Vaio, Clean Install, Installation, Driver, Microsoft Windows Vista, Machine, Recovery Partition, Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Windows Vista (Longhorn), Operating Systems, Software, Ed Bott

Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications.

Disclosure

Ed Bott

Ed Bott is a freelance technical journalist and book author. All work that Ed does is on a contractual basis.

Since 1994, Ed has written more than 25 books about Microsoft Windows and Office. Along with various co-authors, Ed is completely responsible for the content of the books he writes. As a key part of his contractual relationship with publishers, he gives them permission to print and distribute the content he writes and to pay him a royalty based on the actual sales of those books. Ed's books written prior to fall 2011 have been distributed by Que Publishing (a division of Pearson Education) and by Microsoft Press. As of November 2011, Ed is a partner in the independent publishing company Fair Trade Digital Exchange, which exclusively publishes his books.

On occasion, Ed accepts consulting assignments. In recent years, he has worked as an expert witness in cases where his experience and knowledge of Microsoft and Microsoft Windows have been useful. In each such case, his compensation is on an hourly basis, and he is hired as a witness, not an advocate.

Ed does not own stock or have any other financial interest in Microsoft or any other software company. He owns 500 shares of stock in EMC Corporation, which was purchased before the company's acquisition of VMware. In addition, he owns 350 shares of stock in Intel Corporation, purchased more than two years ago. All stocks are held in retirement accounts for long-term growth.

Ed does not accept gifts from companies he covers. All hardware products he writes about are purchased with his own funds or are review units covered under formal loan agreements and are returned after the review is complete.

Biography

Ed Bott

Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications. He's served as editor of the U.S. edition of PC Computing and managing editor of PC World; both publications had monthly paid circulation in excess of 1 million during his tenure. He is the author of more than 25 books on Microsoft Windows and Office, including the recently released Windows 7 Inside Out.

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RE: Fixing Windows Vista, one machine at a time
dheeraj.nagpal@... 21st Nov
@Ed

How much money Microsoft gives you to do so much tedious work. If i am paying for the Operating System, I want it to be working out of box.

Else, download Ubuntu from their site. It will be up and running with 10% of this effort. The best thing, no crapware and no MicroShit that crashes faster than one can blink his eyelids.
View in thread
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All this just to make it work?
Chustar 21st Apr 2008
Huh, my Lifebook didn't give me any hassles when i first booted it, but then again, it was an OEM PC with almost no crap ware (the ones it did come with i still use...does that make them crap ware or "utilities"?). I guess that's why people say Vista is horrible.
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Come again?
itpro_z 21st Apr 2008
So, Vista is crap because Sony installed a ton of crapware on the machine. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I have ran into the exact same thing with hundreds of XP machines from every major manufacturer. Does that mean that XP is crap also? How about Apple, installing their own crapware (QuickTime, etc) on every Mac? I guess they are crap, too, by your definition. Add Linux to the mix, as most distros come with Open Office and other programs preinstalled.
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The question one should ask...
gtdworak 22nd Apr 2008
Why is so much Windows software crap to begin with? If you purchase a Mac, it comes pre-installed with iLife, iWork and usually a trial version of MS Office. Not only is the software very useful and elegant, it doesn?t bog down the system the way so many products written for Windows seem to do. It?s always been touted that there is a lot more software available for Windows than Mac. What good is all that software if so much of it is crap? Apples paradigm in quality hardware seems to carry over to its software development side as well. Crappy software will not be tolerated in the Mac community, while it seems the Windows users relish in crappy software which basically ruins their computing experience. I?ll take quality over quantity every time. I?d rather have a great out of the box experience than have to go through what this guy had to do to just get a decent functioning machine. Imagine the hell this must be for people who aren?t quite so computer savvy?
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That question is irrelevant.
ye 22nd Apr 2008
"Why is so much Windows software crap to begin with?"

Has nothing to do with the quality of Vista.
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Actually that is the crux of the Issue.
Anonymous Gearhead 22nd Apr 2008
The fact that much of Windows software is crappy is exactly the relevant issue. From the earliest days of windows and the Blue Screen of Death, the fact that any software could go awry and cause you to reboot the entire machine until the more bulletproof XP, crappy Windows OS meant that people were more accepting of crappy software from the getgo. Micro$oft turns out Vista, which was tenuous to begin with, and PC makers bundle it with tons of Windows crapware which resulting in a disastrous computing experience. The result being users that are finally fed up enough to go to Mac or Linux. Frankly it's about time.
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No, it's not. Not when if comes to the question:
ye 22nd Apr 2008
Is Vista slow. Presumably if the software running on Windows is the problem then Windows XP would be affected too.
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Exactly
Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 22nd Apr 2008
The computer is SLOW because there is a TON OF CR@P ON THEM. It's doesn't matter the OS, quit being such a Vista patsy. We get it, you will defend Vista no matter the subject at hand or what is even actually being said. No one is bashing Vista, the cr@p that is being pre-loaded with Vista, or XP, or whatever, is being bashed.
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@Kid Icarus: No. A good number of you don't get it.
ye 22nd Apr 2008
That's why I have to constantly keep stating it's not Vista. Maybe you get it but there are many here who do not.
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Depends on WHAT question you're asking
bmerc 22nd Apr 2008
You're arguing over two different questions.

If you're asking the question
"Is a clean, completely up-to-date Vista installation with all the latest drivers and zero crapware slow?"
Perhaps not.

But no novice consumer out there is asking that question.
The question they're asking is...
"Is my new brand X computer with Vista slow?"
And the answer is yes.

Consumers expect that a brand new product out of the box is in its best possible condition, and they don't want to have to tinker or adjust or finagle to get things working. People don't even want to put batteries in things, they want to crack open the package and have it work.

This is true for toasters, TVs, vegetables, shoes, and pretty much everything.

I'm a consumer. The question I'm gonna ask is:
"Is this computer with Vista slower than it ought to be?"

And the answer will be yes.

Is it Microsoft's fault or Sony's?

I. DO. NOT. CARE.

I am the consumer, and I'm feeling frustrated and ripped off. I want someone to fix this problem. The fact that I have to get an expert to fix it just proves to me that the vendor (in this case Sony and Microsoft together) is incompetent.

You may not like it, you may not believe it, but it doesn't change this simple fact:

The user's experience is THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.
Microsoft and the OEMs need to come to some sort of accord on this.
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@bmerc: I am addressing the former.
ye 22nd Apr 2008
ABMers are twisting the latter into a problem with Vista. A prime example is this:

"But no novice consumer out there is asking that question. The question they're asking is... "Is my new brand X computer with Vista slow?" And the answer is yes."

The correct answer to that question is "No more so than Windows XP or any other operating system bogged down with unwanted software".

The problem is you, along with others, are making the fallacy this situation is unique to Vista when in fact it is not. My GFs computer is running Windows XP SP2. It takes forever to log on to that thing because it's got so many things starting up on boot and login (tool bars, IM programs, etc). The problem is not unique to Vista. The fact you're trying to do so reveals your agenda.

"I'm a consumer. The question I'm gonna ask is: "Is this computer with Vista slower than it ought to be?""

No. They will not. They'll likely never know the difference unless one of their ABM Windows "experts" tells them it is.

"I. DO. NOT. CARE."

You should care because you're not focusing on the root cause of the problem. The problem will never get fixed by placing blame on Microsoft. They cannot fix the problem because it is not theirs to fix.

"The user's experience is THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS."

I agree. And in the majority of cases the user experience with Vista is positive.
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It's unique to Microsoft
hasta la Vista, bah-bie 22nd Apr 2008
The problem is not unique to Vista. The fact you're trying to do so reveals your agenda.

No, but you don't find this kind of 3rd party corporate bloat on Linux or Apple.

Just calling a spade a spade where credit is due.
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@b8375629: That's because...
ye 22nd Apr 2008
...Apple has healthy margins and does not need to subsidize their profits by bundling crapware. As for Linux, well, there's just not that much crapware out there...at least none where the author is willing to pay to have it pre-loaded.

But I'm not interested in the why. I'm only interested in the errounous attribution of the slowdown being a result of something inherent in Vista when it's due to other reasons.
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Ye, you are putting words in my mouth. Don't do that.
bmerc 22nd Apr 2008
"ABMers are twisting the latter into a problem with Vista."

I'm really tired of all this NBMer, ABMer, nonsense. Let's stop trying to dehumanize our opponents with these condescending labels. It's the ultimate ad hominem. Once you've labeled someone an ABMer, you can safely discount anything they say. It's not an argument, it's a cop-out.

"The correct answer to that question is "No more so than Windows XP or any other operating system bogged down with unwanted software"."

No, the correct answer to that question is the answer that the consumer gives. If the consumer perceives a slower computer, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter what we think their answer OUGHT to be.

"The problem is you, along with others, are making the fallacy this situation is unique to Vista when in fact it is not."

I have never said anything of the kind. Your statement about me is false.

"My GFs computer is running Windows XP SP2. It takes forever to log on to that thing because it's got so many things starting up on boot and login (tool bars, IM programs, etc)."

How much of that was OEM installed and how much was installed after the fact? There's a difference between self-inflicted junk and OEM provided junk.

XP with SOME crapware = Slow computer, but at least the interface is familiar

Vista with EVEN MORE crapware = Slow computer + Unfamiliar Interface + Stricter (and therefore unfamiliar) security

Even ignoring the possibility that the Vista machine may be underspecced, that's three separate ways the Vista experience is worse than the old computer. So yes, the Vista EXPERIENCE is slower. Even if it's not Vista itself.

"The fact you're trying to do so reveals your agenda."
I am not trying to do so, as I already stated, and my agenda is simple.
* Protect the integrity of my company's information
* Maximize productivity and creativity
* Minimize downtime and angst
* Fight evil and stupidity

At this time, Vista does not fit with the first three goals. Will that change in the future? Quite possibly. But not yet.

ZDNet is one place where I work on the fourth goal.

"You should care because you're not focusing on the root cause of the problem."

You misunderstood me. I was not saying that I personally don't care. I was using a rhetorical device, assuming the role of a non-techie consumer.

Casual consumers do not care if it's Sony's fault or Microsoft's fault. They just want stuff to work, and they will complain to anyone and everyone until they find someone who offers to help them.

"The problem will never get fixed by placing blame on Microsoft."

I don't agree really. Microsoft has a lot of resources they can bring to bear on this problem. And I believe they will, eventually. Microsoft is like an ocean liner. It takes them a long time to change directions.

"They cannot fix the problem because it is not theirs to fix."

They may not be directly responsible for this specific problem, but they most assuredly CAN have an impact:
* Offer incentives to OEMS to decrapify their systems.
* Offer special recognition to OEMs that generate fewer bug reports.
* Make driver certification easier and less expensive
* Provide a built-in option to generate clean OS installation media.
* Add a QuickRestore profile that restores the OS to a clean state and cannot be removed.

I'm sure there's some smart people at Microsoft who can come up with lots more ideas.

"I agree. And in the majority of cases the user experience with Vista is positive."

My anecdotal evidence is different than yours, objective scientific studies do not exist, and I'm not compelled by vague generalities offered by people with vested interests on either side of the argument.
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@bmerc: LOL! Dehumanizing? Are you serious?
ye 22nd Apr 2008
"I'm really tired of all this NBMer, ABMer, nonsense. Let's stop trying to dehumanize our opponents with these condescending labels."

You may not like the labels but they are accurate descriptions. I'm not going to stop using them just because you don't like them. If the shoe fits and all.

"It's the ultimate ad hominem. Once you've labeled someone an ABMer, you can safely discount anything they say. It's not an argument, it's a cop-out."

I don't discount what they write because they're ABMers. I discount what they write because most of the time what they write is FUD and therefore should be discounted.

Again I repeat: Here Ed shows us Vista is not the problem. And what are the ABMers doing? Falling all over themselves to blame Microsoft and/or Vista for the decisions of 3rd parties. THAT'S the reason they're being discounted. It's also the reason they're being labelled ABMers.
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@Ye: ZOMG! ROFLCOPTER! LOLWTFPWNED!
bmerc 23rd Apr 2008
"Dehumanizing? Are you serious?"
Yes, I am. You are using the "ABMer" label to dismiss and belittle those who disagree with you. You've even alienated Microsoft proponents with your vitriol.

"You may not like the labels but they are accurate descriptions."

No, they're not.

People have called you an NBMer. Yet you claim to use Linux. Therefore that label is NOT ACCURATE. But you just said it is. You see how this works?

"I'm not going to stop using them just because you don't like them."

I didn't ask you to stop using them because I don't like them. I asked you to stop using them because they are belittling, dismissive, condescending, and shallow.

I asked you to stop using them because they are a cop-out, a cheap logical fallacy which allows you to dismiss opposing viewpoints simply because of who expressed them.

I asked you to stop using them because, frankly, it's a FREAKING WASTE OF TIME to keep posting your same crap over and over again. Maybe if you actually tried to engage your opponents factually, rather than blindly dismissing them as "ABMers" every time you read something you dislike, you would be taken more seriously.

Really dude, you're one of the more unpleasant people on this forum. I am too, but only in response to asshattery.

"Here Ed shows us Vista is not the problem."
Correction. Here Ed shows us that in this particular case, with this particular Sony, Vista was not the cause of the problem.

The distinction is between a specific anecdote and a broad sweeping generalization.

You're a big fan of the broad sweeping generalization. And frankly, your credibility is teh suxorz as a result.
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bmerc, you have identified
Cardhu 7th Jun 2008
that reading ye's posts is a waste of time.

The reason is that all ye has to offer are ad hominem attacks to try to get people emotional.

Emotion undermines logic. If ye can get people angry, ye wins by removing voices of fact and logic from the forum.

So don't enter into the game. Ye isn't worth reading, so don't bother.
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So you're blaming Microsoft
Khyron 22nd Apr 2008
for the crap programming of other software companies that crash or slow down Windows? Like i said earlier, you could put a nice performance module on your Brand new smokin' Ferrari and watch as your Ferrari Chokes and Sputters. Do we blame Ferrari for making a crap engine because it's not compatible with your new performance module? Think not. hahaha
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Yes
kwacka 23rd Apr 2008
You can put anything you want in your Ferrari (or Honda), its your choice, you paid out good money for it, you own it. You can even look under the hood, program the chips, etc.

All without a EULA.
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re: So you're blaming Microsoft
starcannon99022@... 24th Apr 2008
Your analogy while interesting does not fit.

A better analogy would perhaps be:

You could put a nice performance module on your Brand new smokin' Yugo and watch as your Yugo Chokes and Sputters. Do we blame Yugo for making a crap engine because it's not compatible with your new performance module?

You see, when you start with Vista, you start with a Yugo, and when you start adding things to the Yugo, it only amplifies the real problem, that is, that your driving a Yugo. Same holds true for Vista, it came out being more difficult to install than a 1990's version of Slack, and then at the end of all your hard work half of your "Vista Ready" hardware still wouldn't work.
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Bad Drivers
chromeronin 22nd Apr 2008
Bad drivers have been the problem in most cases of unexplained bluescreens I have ever delt with. Only once has it actually been a fault CPU, almost never a major bug in the OS, no matter what the OS was.
The problem was most early windows drivers were poor, buggy, ad did not handle errors very well, and Win98/2000/XP had poor memory protection to stop drivers stomping all over main memory when they went astray. Printer drivers running in kernel mode were often the worst culprit, followed closely by poor video drivers.
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crap ware
deowll 22nd Apr 2008
That a third party makes crap ware to run on your hard ware is nothing that operating system maker can prevent.

I'd like to play with linux.

While the mac is so much like XP\Vista that anyone who uses one should be able to use the other the default mac browser seems to be in the same class as IE 4 or worse according to pay pal and with mac sales climbing it is just a matter of time before somebody decides to do a number on the mac.

Fortunately both windows and mac users have other options than this crap ware browser. I'm sure apple will fix it someday.
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Again, are you kidding?
evilkillerwhale@... 22nd Apr 2008
The last BSOD I got that wasn't my fault: Windows 98 on a pentium III because of a Creative sound card.

Ubuntu sucks. It's painful to get up and running, and painful to add new things to. You are allowed to be a masochist, but don't expect others to.

Linux comes with multiple everything. There is no reason to have multiple browsers. People use the one to get the one they want, and get rid of the old one. Max of 2.

Mac has its uses. I enjoy using my macbook for many things. Circuit design? PC. Math formulas? Office 2007 pro has a eqzn editor that's as powerful as Tek while MUCH easier to use. Gaming? Pc. Surfing the internet? Firefox. CD design? Still PC. It's easy to find the templates to make my own insert booklets on the PC. On the mac, it's not. Photo editing? photoshop. Either system. Video editing? This one goes either way for me. FinalCut is great. I love it. But at the same time, I really enjoy ArcSoft Showbiz. It's kind of obscure (comparatively), but works fantastically. So either system is still fine.

So tell me, where is the mac above and beyond the pc? My pc is almost as fast as my mac, while being 4 years older and costing 100 dollars less new than the mac did. My pc has 3d graphics, a DVD burner, and 6 usb ports. Not the mac. It's got... 2 usb... on the keyboard...

My mac starts quickly, runs well, is fairly easy to use, and is very nice. Several of the ways it does things are quicker, more efficient, or more fun to use than my pc. Overall though? I love my pc. Vista is what is keeping me on pc. I was fed up with XP and ready to leave, and then I found Vista, which is a million times better.
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No, no it's not
HelpDesk Dave 25th Apr 2008
Just like the new Mac commercials, MAC is proprietary and you pay for that. Windows takes software and hardware from many vendors and cannot control what the providers do with either their software or hardware to make it work with Windows. So the crapware you refer to is not windows it is the thousands of vendors that create software to run on windows. I bought a new Dell 1721 in Dec08 preinstalled with Windows Vista Home premium and stuffed with Dell crapware. No surprise the Laptop ran like crap. As soon as I rebuilt system with Vista enterprise not one problem with the windows software was noted. Also, not surprisingly, were the problems that I had installing Norton?s System works and a couple of other ?non-windows" produced software. If your a real tech and not a wanna be, Vista is great. If you?re a real tech, you know what you want to do with the PC your purchasing and also know what the hardware requirements are and you will make sure the system will run what you want. When you compare windows to Mac?s it like comparing mammals to reptiles. When you produce strictly proprietary hardware and software you have control, Windows o/s expects the vendors of its hardware and software to insure that their product will work in windows but clearly doesn't have the control that Apple has. We won?t even discuss the nightmares that users have trying to install/ use Linux and the problems associated with open O/S, security/hardware compatibility and software availability. So the bottom line is, if you buy a $300 Wal-Mart special PC you will get what you pay for. Also, no matter how much you pay for a PC, the vendor can render a totally awesome PC into a very expensive paper weight. No Tech I know of ever leaves a newly purchased PC with preloaded software o/s. No sense of asking for problems when you?re smart enough to know how to by pass them. That is my opinion, agree with it or not, it won't stop the sun from rising tomorrow in the east. happy
Dave
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Apple is all things at once
Michael Kelly 22nd Apr 2008
They put together the hardware, they program and bundle the OS, and they install all the software. If MS had that kind of control I'm sure all the pre-installed crapware would go away. But I'm also sure that if that ever happened the EU and FCC would be all over MS in a heartbeat.

And no, Windows users do NOT relish crappy software. They do tolerate it though, which is something different.
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Apple has quality hardware?
NonZealot 22nd Apr 2008
Tell that to this poor Mac guy!

Can you please tell me why I should switch from my Windows and Linux machines that all work perfectly to a Mac that has display issues, HD mounting issues, constant kernel panics, and goes into reboot loops when you look at it sideways? Is a machine that constantly reboots itself more productive somehow? happy
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Grow up!
jeanmarc@... 22nd Apr 2008
NonZealot, I haven not yet found a talkback where you had
something positive to write about the Mac. I have not
actually found a comment of yours that is really
constructive. Grow up, man.

I can paste thousands of links that describe horror stories
and incredible occurrences with Windows, Linux, BSD, and
OS.X. So please, be cool.

As for the other writers, that voice their opinion of iLife
being crapware, Safari being crapware, etc, well they need
to grow up as well!

How does one download and install Firefox without IE on
Vista/XP on the PC, and Safari on the Mac? How does one
listen to Music without QuickTime or Windows Media? I am
just so tired of your childish and biased comments. Are
you sure you're all adults?

Vista out of the box is not performing as it should, that's
what the majority of comments I read say, and it confirms
my own experience.
OS.X is much more functional (ready to run efficiently) out
of the box. Again, that's what the majority of comments I
read say, confirming my own experience.
Ubuntu (in my probably biased opinion, it is the simplest
Linux distribution) could be on a par with OS.X if it
installed drivers, libraries, and applications that need to be
fetched by Automatix or other utilities. However it still
feels more stable and rugged than Vista - out of the box.

As for hardware quality, there is no question that Apple is
on top. Numerous surveys and reviews - many years
running - rate them very high indeed.
IBM/Lenovo models, even though a little 'too business-
minded' have a good reputation, and their drivers are fairly
easy to find/update. I sit on the fence about HP and
Toshiba, as the reviews (and my experience) are mixed. I
have certainly come to dislike Sony, Dell, and Acer, after
years of giving them chance after chance with different
models. Personally, I find the drivers too proprietary, or
finicky to find/update.
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Nothing positive about anything
voska1 22nd Apr 2008
This post looks like form letter where you just insert the OS or hardware you are bashing. Normally he bashes Linux with exact same post. Notice how he mentions he using Linux in this one. So just swap the key points and repost is all he's done.
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he will praise Windows though
Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 22nd Apr 2008
Though I shouldn't say he, I think there are multiple writers for NonZ's responses.
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if Apple were on top
Khyron 22nd Apr 2008
we wouldn't be discussing Vista now would we.... Fact of the matter is, Vista out of the box, as you say, runs great. If by out of the box you mean the retail HP computer box from Best buy with all the crapware installed on it, then blmae Best buy or HP for the Crapware, not Microsoft. I'm sure I could load up a MAC with all sorts of crapware that slows it down also, does that mean OS X is crap? Nope.
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Your finger is on the problem
brad@... 23rd Apr 2008
I'm a Mac user, but I too am tired of everyone pointing the finger at Microsoft. The responsibility for configuring and building systems that work well lies largely on the system vendors (Dell, Sony, HP, etc). Apple has the benefit of configuring their own hardware, and of clinging tightly to the stance that products should "just work". This gives them the motivation and the resources to make computers that don't require a 12-step program to bring up to a workable level. If these hardware vendors would deliver computers with base Vista installs and put some REAL effort in to finding drivers that are worth a flip, they'd be producing a product on par with Apple.

Well... except for the fact that OS X is a better OS on it's own :P Muuuhahahahaha happy Don't lynch me please!
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Apple on Top, ROFL!!!
dom2please@... 23rd Apr 2008
There is a reason Apple only has a few percent of the business market. Remove the folks who do graphics and it's almost nil.

Why, because Apple is a toy company, and the items they produce are toys. Iphones, Ipods(audio and video)and their line of computers to name a few.

And as has been pointed out already if Microsoft even produced it's own box, then loaded it's own software and disallowed any sort of open source the Justice Dept. and the EU would be sniping to see who got to destroy them first.

The powers to be, INCLUDING MS, allow APPLE to do this so they can all say MS is not a monopoly.
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hardware
chromeronin 22nd Apr 2008
Apple choice - dont like apples current aluminium slab keyboard, or want a wireless keyboard with a number pad, umm, sorry, you're out of luck.
If I don't like the dell KB my pc came with, I could buy a Logitec one, in wireless, bluetooth and a mouse that uses the same connector. or a smaller kb for the kids, or a travel mouse for my laptop, or a laser pointer pen with trackball, then run any intel CPU based OS I want on it except OSX 8(
I hope someday cannoonical can make some hardware as cool as apple, but you might beable to replace the bits you don't like.
I'm thinking of buying a mac mini (about NZ$900), but only because I can use my existing 24" LCD, I don't have to pay $2000 for Apples one that comes with a free computer inside it 8) but I don't think OSX would last long as the primary OS for me.
But at least if I install the OS myself, and slect up-to-date stable drivers
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If you don't like the keyboard..
msalzberg 27th Apr 2008
that comes with a Mac, you can "buy a Logitec one,
in wireless, bluetooth and a mouse that uses the same
connector. or a smaller kb for the kids, or a travel mouse
for my laptop, or a laser pointer pen with trackball."

That connector is called a USB port, and Apple had them as
standard since 1998, well before most Windows machines
had them.

Macs come with wireless and bluetooth, as well, so that
isn't limiting your keyboard choice.

The only thing that seems to be limiting is your lack of
knowledge of Apple's products.
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Out of the box
deowll 22nd Apr 2008
My last machine (HP) was okay out of the box. It's just a fast duel core with 2 gig or ram and 500 gig hard drive. It is actually supposed to be a media center and I have a rather nice moniter with it bought seperately. At a 1000 it had the resources to run Vista and do some other things but I still managed to up the performance a lot by removing system resource hogs that ran all the time and turning off a few things.

There is no doubt in my mind that PC makers are killing their own businesses by taking money to install software that makes their hardware look like crap by using up all availabe system resources.

I suppose I could have spent five or six hundred more and got some much better hardware but normally speaking this system is not being pushed at all.

The worst most of my crap ware did is waste hard drive space I paid for but the system resource using software that runs all the time is truly toxic waste.
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Here's why NonZealot's comments are never worth reading
bmerc 22nd Apr 2008
Let's compare NonZealot's comments to the original posting he's supposedly referencing:

NonZealot: "constant kernel panics"
Original Poster: "My MBP did have it's 1st kernel panic yesterday..."

Exaggerate much, NZ?

NonZealot: "goes into reboot loops when you look at it sideways"
Original Poster:

Make up ridiculous lies much, NZ?


Original: "I am looking forward to trying out the new firmware today, as I have been having the display issues it addresses."

NZ: "Apple has quality hardware? Tell that to this poor Mac guy!"

NZ: "...why I should switch from my Windows and Linux machines that all work perfectly to a Mac that has display issues, HD mounting issues..."

False Dilemma much, NZ?

(Note that NonZealot does not give the option of switching from a Windows or Linux machine with issues to a Mac without issues. That's because he knows acknowledging the possibility that such issues might exist completely deflates his overblown argument.
This is of course a logical fallacy, and he's a huge fan of those. His arguments are full of them. Every time. And that's just one more reason to disregard pretty much anything he has to say on pretty much any topic.)

Also notice how NonZealot tries to make a software problem into a hardware problem? Gosh there's a Macintosh issue, never mind the fact that the discussion is over software patches, by GOD it MUST be the HARDWARE!

Smoke crack much, NonZealot?

NonZealot is the very epitome of zealotry, and is utterly incapable of fielding a cogent, rational argument on any subject.

Consider that a challenge if you want. Prove me wrong. Post something that doesn't suck for once.
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NonZealot, I bet you're being paid to bash Macs...
pbromelkamp 22nd Apr 2008
Wouldn't you have to be a moron to have your Mac screwed up like that?
My Mac works perfectly... always.
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A paid NBMer?
hasta la Vista, bah-bie 23rd Apr 2008
No doubt...

That's the only explanation.
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Tired of THIS!
mikeholli 19th Aug 2008
People, can we STOP BLAMING MICROSOFT? Microsoft (read carefully) DOES NOT PUT CRAPWARE ON YOUR PCs!!!! That's the computer manufacturer, and the deals it works out with these companies that you complain make crapware. NOW you want a crapware free PC? Then you PAY the extra for them not to add it.
Alienware computers do NOT contain any crapware/trialware, Demo software, and etc whatsoever! BUT, you PAY for the privilege to not have any of that on your PC! Believe it or not, all that garbage is there for a reason.
It HELPS keep down the initial cost of your new PC. Go into Add/Remove programs, remove it from your PC and get on with life! Let's put the blame where it TRULY belongs..the CONSUMER!
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The answer to that would be...
Wolfie2K3 22nd Apr 2008
... That vendors get greedy in an effort to "subsidize" and "save the consumer a few bucks" by preinstalling a bunch of crapware. It's not that ALL of the bundled software itself is bad. SOME, like Adobe Reader, is pretty decent and useful - provided they give you a CURRENT version (8.x) and not a bug ridden POS (5.x).

I mean, seriously, who in their right (or left) mind wants AOL in this day and age? AOL's client app is SO past it's prime. They keep adding more and more bloat to each version as they try to stay relevant by adding more and more features to their service. A year or so ago, I had to solve a problem with a client's computer that had been infested by AOL's security program. The security program clamped down on some of the mission critical things like a legitimately shared folder that was already secured with by the domain.

The trialware version of MS Office is ok... Except that it expires in 60 days. And then you have to either come up with a license for the version in question or uninstall it and install the version you've already bought and paid for.

For what it's worth, I'm with Ed here - give us a CLEAN OS install, let us decide what we need and want and be done with it.

The other day I had the major displeasure of using a Fujitsu laptop with Vista Home Premium on it. The experience sucked harder than Cygnus X-1. Why? Because there were at least 25 items (I kid you NOT) running in the taskbar. The icons took over 3/4's of the taskbar when it was fully extended. The owner who's supposed to be a tech "professional" hadn't bothered cleaning house.
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Took the words right out of my brain.
gypkap@... 20th May 2008
You said exactly what was planning to say. The way to deal with crapware on a new PC is to uninstall it. My Toshiba laptop with Vista installed had a bunch of worthless games on it from someone other than Microsoft. Those were the first things to go.

I also found out that the current version of McAfee was effectively crapware, so it was removed. It was replaced by Trend Micro Antivirus, which doesn't suck. I also removed the Google and Yahoo toolbars, which are both nasty. There were other icons put on the Desktop, like AOL and Yahoo Music; the icons are gone and so is the software. I kept Picasa2 though.

I kept the Microsoft games that come with Vista, because they are actually well done. Exception: I removed Purble Place, because I have no young grandkids I want to play with my PC. TVTonic stays, as its shows are mostly amusing in a geeky way, and Dvorak's Cranky Geeks is on there.

I didn't upgrade Microsoft Office from trialware to full license, simply because I don't like the ribbon controls--personal preference, others may disagree. I use OpenOffice instead, which mostly behaves like I want it to.

Finally, I added Firefox and Thunderbird for web browsing and EMail.

If I ever get a Mac, I will remove that abomination of a browser that Apple pushes, and replace it with FF/TBird.
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good point, but
marks055@... 22nd Apr 2008
The reason OEM's deliver computers with all this extra software is because the software vendors pay them to. Not because everybody likes it. You're also dead on about what less savvy people experience, since they often buy the cheaper models which are even more loaded with these trial versions.
Mac's aren't for everyone, there's a lot of things they don't do that PC's do. They do come standard with very nice applications. But iphoto is no better in my opinion than the standard photo management program with Vista. Same with their mail client ect. I used a Mac as my main laptop for years, after 10.5.1 I sold it(PowerBook) because putting in a bigger hard drive was too expensive and unlike my Dell is difficult for home users to do. From experience Leopard is almost as bloated as Vista and very slow on the older hardware.
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Great Instructions site...
gtdworak 22nd Apr 2008
Go to: http://www.ifixit.com/

They have great instruction sheets on how to install every component on a Mac, be it desktop or laptop.
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Yes its a great site. I did upgrade an old ibook
marks055@... 22nd Apr 2008
hard drive using their diagrams. But when I swapped out my Thinkpads hard drive recently, it took 5 minutes. It was 1 screw to get it out of the machine and 4 more to take it out of the bracket. 5 minutes compared to hours of very nervous tinkering hopping you don't end up with additional screws or parts when its done. I was lucky it went okay but it's absurd to build a computer that way if you don't have to.
To be fair the new Macbooks (not MacBook Pro)are very easy to swap out the hard drive or ram. I think the Boot Camp option new Macs have make them very compelling if I was in the market, although I would be in Vista more than OSX, but to each his own.
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Microsoft doesn't install...
Khyron 22nd Apr 2008
that crap on a retail system. The retailer or manufacturer does, to push their products on you the consumer. Windows installs what it needs to run, plus some lame games and very basic picture viewing or Word processing apps. So blame the retailer for the crapware, not microsoft.
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I beg to differ
evilkillerwhale@... 22nd Apr 2008
Office 2008 is so much worse than 2007. Yes, it's prettier, but in my experience, it's slower, with less features, and ANOTHER new interface which isn't as good as the 2007 ribbon.

Secondly, the "crapware" IS trial versions. If you have a trial of MS office, you have crapware. simple as that. The pc manufacturers try to push things like Norton Antivirus on users as well, and since it's virtually impossible to uninstall (their uninstaller does NOT uninstall it, but just takes most components out) people buy it, and then have more crap. Also, since macs cheapest machines are much more expensive than the cheapest pcs (I know it's because of Apple's better hardware, because Apple won't give you crap hardware or whatever. I don't care, they are still more expensive, even if they are better), more people have their hands on pcs. This allows non-savvy users to have pcs. This means that they need help. The help comes in the form of the bloatware that does a decent job of helping users get started and maintain their machine. For advanced users, it just gets in the way.
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crappy software not tolerated in Mac community?
dogmo1001 23rd Apr 2008
Crappy software not tolerated in the Mac community?

How about iWeb?

Now, certainly, it's free.

But the "web authoring tool" writes *horrible*, inefficient, bloated code that slows down browser rendering and is a nightmare to modify outside the program.

Or how about the horrific problems people have with Apple's flagship music program, Logic? Every new release fixes only part of the previous bugs and introduces more (great feature set -- now if they could get them all to work).

I have to use Macs in my business life. There is much to admire about Apple's handling of the Mac.

There is also much that is very wrong.

Just like other platforms.
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Re: The question one should ask...
caeciszek 24th Apr 2008
Actually you put the answer in your post. The applications are not crappy. MS Office is on Apple as well. Bloat ware is crappy and slows down a system. Now Apple may or may not include free trials of AOL, this Program that Program etc, but when you go in, clean out all the add ons that Manufacturers put on the system, all of which tend to load into memory and slow down the machine radically, Vista is a snappy, responsive critter that sits up and begs to be used hard and fast. I loved that right out of the OEM install, I could dictate (verbally)a letter to my computer while working on a photo project no added programs needed. Unlike Scotty (ST)I don't need to talk into the mouse, just put on my headset, turn on my music, begin work and tell my computer what programs to open, close, or where to surf to. I know a few older than me (that wold be age 56 and above) who also enjoy the fact they can now talk to their computer and don't have to be so savvy or even able to type well (arthritis) to get the most for 1K less than apple sells for.
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Answer? $$$ PC Makers get PAID to put that CRAP on the machines!
Jeff Hayes 28th May 2008
The PC market is so competitive and profits are cut so close to the bone in many cases that the computer makers look at OTHER sources of revenue... They figure since the "average" computer user doesn't "know turds from Tootsie Rolls," so to speak, they can just load down their new systems with every conceivable piece of shareware and trialware from which company they get paid a decent royalty for either the loading, or for the buyer purchasing the paid version after they "try it out."

And it comes back to VERY CYNICAL THINKING in computer marketing departments TOO FREAKING STUPID to realize they will LOSE sales and market share in the LONG RUN by alienating customers doing this sort of crap -- PARTICULARLY when all they offer is a "recovery partition," meaning that if you DON'T want all that crap, or if you have to re-install the system for ANY other reason, you STILL have to put up with it re-installing ALL that crapware again, anyway.

Currently, that's the ONLY THING I like about Dell (at least the Dell that sold me the desktop I'm using at the moment)... It came, 1.5 years ago, with a COMPLETE SET of installation disks, with SEPARATE DISKS for the system and all the different crapware... And it didn't actually COME with that much crapware... I had the option to opt out of some of it when I ordered the machine, and I DID...

My high-end HP laptop I bought last summer, on the other hand, while an equally elegant machine, came ONLY with a recovery partition and NO WAY to do any sort of recovery that DOESN'T recover EVERYTHING that shipped with the OS (just as did my HP Media Center desktop I bought 3.5 years ago). Some companies give you an OPTION to buy a set of OS disks, but I don't think HP even gives you THAT option... You can buy a set of "restore" disks for your system when you get it, but it's the same thing you'd MAKE by running the "restore disk maker" option, which I did, of course, right away, for safety's sake.

As for Ed's four recommendation's as to what computer makers need to do to keep and make happier customers, he was RIGHT ON TARGET with all four -- especially the last two! But I'm not sure we can count on seeing MUCH or ANY of that any time soon -- not unless some REAL competition emerges that blows the Dells and HPs and Sony and Toshiba people OUT OF THE WATER... something like Psystar is threatening to do to the Mac... I remember a time when it looked like "Gateway 2000" was the PC world's answer for THAT... Today, however, "Gateway" is a much-changed company and VERY MUCH yesterday's news, and WAY BACK in the pack due to their very BAD treatment of customers after having once been at the top of the customer experience list.

Parts are getting so plug-and-play I'm REALLY TEMPTED to build my own for the first time the NEXT TIME I want a desktop and REALLY DO IT MY WAY!
Jeff
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The problem with what you are saying is
Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 22nd Apr 2008
that those extra apps installed on a Mac or with a Linux distro don't kill your performance. Also they aren't usually useless demos that you would never EVER use.

My dad's computer was plagued with them, HP tray icon to tell you everything you never needed to know unless you wanted to buy HP crap, A Kodak system tray, a system tray icon for every piece of cr@p software they were trying to pawn off on their customer. All apps, basically running silently in the background, at least silent to my pops.

I had to get rid of all that gunk for him just so he could have decent experience of running his new computer without being bombarded every time he started his computer and constantly being nagged though out the day.

TOTALLY PAINFUL!
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Linux
swbobcat 22nd Apr 2008
Well here is the BIG difference between VISTA (aka Windows 7 beta-ware) and LINUX. If you install Linux on the computer during the install you are asked what you want to install on the computer -- if you don't want to install something, that is set as "default" you simple un-mark the box; if you want to install something that is not part of the default, you mark a box; if you install the default, and afterwards decide, "Nah, don't like it you can uninstall the software... WITHOUT the computer throwing a hissy fit.
Second, everything about Windows is "crapware". Why should any user forced to check in with the mother ship just to use an OS?!? With Linux the USER owns the OS, not a LICENSE TO USE.
The best thing to do: Buy a computer without Windows on it and install Linux -- or if you can't buy the computer with out an OS, but it with Linux pre-installed, and if you don't particularly that that distro, nuke and try another till you find one you like -- and for the Windows centric, why there are even Linux distros out there that act and look like Windows... without all the inherent problems associated with Windows.
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RE: Fixing Windows Vista, one machine at a time
dheeraj.nagpal@... 21st Nov
@Ed

How much money Microsoft gives you to do so much tedious work. If i am paying for the Operating System, I want it to be working out of box.

Else, download Ubuntu from their site. It will be up and running with 10% of this effort. The best thing, no crapware and no MicroShit that crashes faster than one can blink his eyelids.

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