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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Apple: Is it really recession proof? Wall Street says no

By | September 29, 2008, 11:07am PDT

Summary: Updated below: Morgan Stanley analyst Kathryn Huberty thinks that Apple can’t outrun a slowing economy. And she’s betting her estimates on it. In a research note Monday, Huberty downgraded Apple shares from “overweight” to “equal weight” and lowered her price target to $115 from $178 on the theory that the company can’t beat a PC unit [...]

Updated below: Morgan Stanley analyst Kathryn Huberty thinks that Apple can’t outrun a slowing economy. And she’s betting her estimates on it.

In a research note Monday, Huberty downgraded Apple shares from “overweight” to “equal weight” and lowered her price target to $115 from $178 on the theory that the company can’t beat a PC unit growth slowdown.

Huberty’s theory, which along with an RBC downgrade knocked Apple shares down 17 percent to a 52-week low, goes like this:

PC unit growth is decelerating. Here’s how she is cutting her targets for Apple’s December quarter.

huberty1.png

The big source of growth in the PC market is sub-$1,000 units. Apple doesn’t play the sub-$1,000 game. Analysts have been beating this netbook worry drum in recent days. Huberty’s money quote:

Our proprietary analysis of US PC shipments by price segment suggests that unit growth is shifting to the low-end of the market (sub $1,000). With 69% market share of US consumer PC sales above $1,500, we don’t believe AAPL can continue to grow 3x the market rate near-term (which is what we believe is reflected in consensus models). Our revised Mac forecast assumes 18% YoY F2009 unit growth, down from 39% in F2008 (and our prior F2009 estimate of 29%). Going forward, we believe Apple’s ability to maintain both its unit growth premium (roughly 3x) and average selling price (ASP)  premium (roughly 1.5x) versus the market is unlikely.

huberty2.png

Apple’s earnings growth will decelerate from a strong June quarter. Apple is expected to report fiscal third quarter earnings of $1.13 a share next month.

Investors are compressing earnings multiples for growth stocks. You only need a stock chart to figure that out. Here’s Apple year to date.

aaplchart3.png

Simply put, Apple isn’t immune from what’s happening in the broader economy. It all sounds logical, but Huberty acknowledges that Apple’s “2-3 year market share story is intact.”

Huberty also notes that Apple is likely to deliver a conservative December quarter outlook–a prudent move that’s totally in keeping with the company’s playbook. The big question is whether Apple’s outlook will be more than its usual lowball guidance. We’ll soon find out.

Also see: Apple cuts iPhone 3G build plan; Suppliers to take a hit

Update:  Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster is defending Apple shares. Munster makes the following points in a research note:

  • Wall Street expects Apple’s unit growth to fall already. Munster adds that the current Apple quarter is facing a tough Mac comparison due to the launch of the iMac a year ago.
  • Fear about about weak Apple margins are overblown. Munster says: “The Street is modeling for 32% gross margin in FY09, down from 34% in FY08. We expect margin guidance to be 30-31% for December, in line or above the company’s 30% gross margin guidance for FY09.”
  • It’s highly unlikely that Apple will warn about its September quarter results.

And all of Munster’s points are couched in a massive caveat. He writes:

Concern over the US banking meltdown spreading to Europe, along with mass stock liquidations, looms large. We believe fears of a continued global slowdown will impact equity investments in the tech sector. But our thesis leads us to conclude that Apple is better positioned than other tech players to weather the storm.

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Topics

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: Apple: Is it really recession proof?
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 11th Oct
Howdy,excellent guidebook. Informations are nfl store fairly usefull and saves me a lot time which I could expend on a single factor else in location of googling
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One thing to keep in mind
j.m.galvin 29th Sep 2008
The analyst's employer, Morgan Stanley, just
had to sell 21% of itself to get needed cash. In
other words, they f--ked up bigtime.

Other Wall Street "genius" firms include
bankrupt Lehman and forced sale Merrill Lynch.

Back in the days of the Dot Com surge, these
"geniuses" were all telling people that these new
companies were going to dominate everything.
90% of the Dot Coms, became Dot Bombs.
People lost a fortune listening to these Wall St.
"geniuses".

In most cases you can tape the stock results
pages of the Wall St. Journal or NY Times to the
wall and throw darts to pick stocks. Your
results will usually be about as accurate as
basing your purchases on the "genius" analysts
at the "genius" Wall St. firms.
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Finally
kitko 29th Sep 2008
Finally, I hear the reason talking. Under current circumstances, Morgan Stanley wouldn't be a company to which I'd turn to get a qualified opinion. Be it on Apples, Oranges or kinderkarten sandbox supplies.
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Of course...
Sleeper Service 30th Sep 2008
...the same applies to the brokerages that were pumping the stock up does it not?

Swings and roundabouts.
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PR
j.m.galvin 30th Sep 2008
A lot of these "analysis" is put out for PR
only - for the brokers and analysts.
They always mention prominent
companies or the most recent "hot"
company. Then the analysis gets picked
up by the general press and the
brokerage gets publicity.

Note that you will rarely see general
news coverage of some analyst's
forecast for Acme Pipe or some other,
possibly huge, company that does not
have the public's attention. There are
far more of these than there are of high
visibility companies like Apple.
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And guess who makes money ...
PMDubuc 30th Sep 2008
when people are buying and selling stocks? It does nothing for Morgan Stanly when their clients hold on to stocks.
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A few futher thoughts.
deowll 30th Sep 2008
Apple is likely to continue to do well on the high end in laptop sales.

It still isn't in the low end market. In the long run I think that it would be ill advised to play in the low end sector. You can't sell style for a premium there. The margins are thin. Reputations are normally poor at least to the point that the machine is not a "in crowd" status statement.

Um, if you want to be a major player on the high end stay away from the low end.

The new ipods and iphones aren't the new thing any more nor are the machines themselves all that different from older modals. If you already own one the sane reason for buying a new one is my old one broke.
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Laptops...
Wolfie2K3 30th Sep 2008
Apple is likely to continue to do well on the high end in laptop sales.

It still isn't in the low end market.


Gee.. You can buy a "low end" laptop from Dell for $399. That's a brand new unit, Windows Vista Home Basic, 1 GB RAM and a 160 GB HDD AND it's crapware free...

Yeah, it's a basic, stripped down unit, but if that's all you need... No, it won't win any beauty pagents, but they're very serviceable laptops.

I'm guessing Dell sells more Vostro laptops than Apple sells MacBooks and MacBook Pros.
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perhaps in overall numbers...
vulpine@... 30th Sep 2008
... but growth percentages still have Apple's laptops
selling 40% more than last year, and now 10% overall for
this last month. It really doesn't look like "low end" is the
direction people are going.
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That reminds me of a commercial...
Wolfie2K3 30th Sep 2008
In most cases you can tape the stock results pages of the Wall St. Journal or NY Times to the wall and throw darts to pick stocks. Your results will usually be about as accurate as basing your purchases on the "genius" analysts at the "genius" Wall St. firms.

I forget who's ad it was - but it featured a guy who put the paper down on the floor and let his dog do his business on the business section. He'd get his stock picks based on where Fido went... Kinda gross, but funny...
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RE: Apple: Is it really recession proof?
nothingness 29th Sep 2008
Actually companies like Apple will be the hardest hit in the consumer retail industry because they are luxury items. If we were in a true recession, i.e., negative growth rate with rampant unemployment, luxury items will be the first ones out of one's budget.
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Now if they prove to be must have then not so much. It
depends on one's point of view. You see Apple as a luxury
brand. I see them as a practical choice given the "other"
options.

Pagan jim
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Of course if you have the money for an Apple computer and you really feel you need an Apple computer then you are correct, it isn't a luxury, at least not how we usually think of luxury's.

On the other hand, it should be fairly obvious that if getting a new computer is a must, and lets say you just do not have the money for an Apple, or you would be under a financial burden to purchase an Apple, clearly where there are PC's available for $500, an Apple computer suddenly is a luxury, no matter how bad you think you need one.
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Only if.....
James Quinn 29th Sep 2008
You can't budget and prioritize yourself and your
want's/needs. I don't see a problem when deciding to NOT
purchase a PC and getting an Apple when their prices are not
all that different. Waiting an extra paycheck or two? A
month maybe? To me its well worth the wait to buy what I
consider the better product and better name.

Pagan jim
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Not that clear cut
mdsock@... 30th Sep 2008
The difference between a $1200 iMac and $500 PC is a major concern to a large segment of the population. Many people would much rather have more expensive cars than they eventually end up buying. A Lexus rather than a Toyota, a Cadillac rather than a Chevy. The same applies to Apple products on a smaller scale. And an "extra paycheck or two" implies that people have discretionary income of $400 every time they get paid. I'm single with an above median income (for families) and that isn't true even for me. If it's true for you, wonderful. But not for most and that's what the discussion is about. Yes, many Mac owners will still buy Macs. But the question is how much their market share will grow.

As much as I dislike Vista (without going into DRM, WGA, SPA, bloat and the overdone GUI), for most people it's adequate with enough (inexpensive) RAM available. And "better", as has been stated elsewhere ad infinitum, is highly subjective. I'm not that impressed with the Mac OS, even as I see advantages to it. But the important thing is that most people I know are used to Windows and the differences throw them. Even as the differences between XP and Vista throw them, admittedly.

Nearly everyone I know will go for the $400 PC desktop or laptop over the $1000+ Mac version. Especially some very savvy shoppers. There are a lot of reasons for that other than cost, the main probably being the availability of software. And before the subject of Bootcamp is mentioned, let me remind you that most people don't want to have to bother with such things. They don't want to have to buy a copy of Windows to do it and deal with installing it. Adding the cost of an OEM Wiondows license to a PC may boost the cost significantly, but that means nothing to the average consumer if it's part of the system price.

Cost matters more than ever for most computer buyers, if they even feel that they can afford it.
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Please Jim......
xuniL_z 30th Sep 2008
to the dicerning user who pays attention to reality, they know that high end PCs are now 800.00 to 1000.00 or so, and you can hardly get a mini for that, bare bones configured.


A solid sweet Vista machine, like mine, is now around 1000.00. It's the equivilent of a MBP w/ 17" screen. High end penryn core 2 duo, dual 7200 rpm drives, 4GB of very fast RAM, 512MB Video RAM (discrete), built in webcam, mic, great DVD, speakers, fingerprint reader, easy pull power cable (works as good or better than a magnet), high resolution screen supporting 19X12.


In other words, a MBP that has been built above the default config and hitting the 3000.00 plus mark.


I priced a 15" MB the other day, from a reseller, and it was 1700.00 for one drive (slow 5400rpm as is the default on most macs), like 114MB or some small weird amount of video RAM, and 2 GB of RAM in matched pair set.
That is less than half of my machine in all ways, including quality (please don't kid yourself anymore aobut the "quality" of Mactel boxes) at almost twice the cost. I can't imagine anyone being that irresponsible with money esp. in this economy and where MS has now brought out ads that make the I'm a PC/I'm a MAC ads look dull and stupid quite frankly.
wink


Hate to see it, but Apple is going to lose all of it's pickup in the next few years, esp. if their hardware keeps breaking or going bad and problems and fixes need attention all of the time.
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xuniL_z, where do you get your numbers?
vulpine@... 30th Sep 2008
"... to the dicerning user who pays attention to
reality, they know that high end PCs are now 800.00 to
1000.00 or so, and you can hardly get a mini for that,
bare bones configured. "


Try again, my friend. a Bare Bones mini is far less than
the $800 figure you suggest and even the top-end
Mini is less than the $1000 you cite. It's lies like this
that confuse the average buyer. It's also lies like this
that are causing people to actually question similar
statements and realize that the Apple really is worth
the money they pay.

I won't deny that this market may give Psystar a
boost... but even that may end up to Apple's advantage
once the Psystar's shortcomings become obvious. Then
again, maybe not.
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The bare cost...
Sleeper Service 3rd Oct 2008
...is $599 for a Mini however this doesn't include a monitor, a keyboard or a mouse. If you add the minimum options from Apple's store the bare cost is just under $1,200 although only Apple would have the brass neck to charge $599 for a pretty standard 20" monitor.
A 15" MB (not pro) was at 1700.00 at a reseller Blowout price. It was very modestly configured. One 5400rpm drive, 120GB. 2 GB of RAM, matched pair of 1GB modules. I understand you should try to match pairs, but i like the choice of ONE 2GB module in case I want to bump it to 4GB, which i would immediately to run OS X, it's not Puppy Linux to be sure. In fact, Vista is faster on the same hardware in my experience. There are a number of Mac addicts on zdnet that agree Vista is faster on same config.


1500 for a 13" MB. 2800 for a 17" MBP. And that is still only TWO MB of RAM, no choice for one 2 GB module, now that is just mean...who isn't going to upgrade a MBP 17" to 4GB? My HP is perfectly solid and being a 17" display, 4GB 800Mhz RAM, 2 160GB 7200rpm drives, 512MB of discrete RAM on a high end GPU, 2.5Ghz penryn core 2 duo, tv tuner and Vista Ultimate x64, it's current price is so far below the same config on a MBP (you have to upgrade to get to this config in many areas, and no choice of dual 7200rpm drives thati could find.
Mac Mini is a very low config. It should be cheap. For the same money you can always get twice the specs on a PC almost consistently across the board.
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Stop being such a numbskull
tikigawd 30th Sep 2008
When people have to decide between food, gas to go to work, money for the mortgage and a freaking computer what do you think they'll choose?

It's not the computer, Mac, Windows or Linux. A new computer is mostly a luxury item for most people. And even if you consider a computer as a necessity people will go for the cheapest one they can get to get the job done!

It's basic economics. Stop being such a dimwitted fanatic already, jeez!
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Namecalling again, tiki?
vulpine@... 30th Sep 2008
While your second paragraph may be true, calling
people names is only more likely to have people doubt
your statements.

For some, a computer is how they live and work. If it
weren't for the computer, keeping up with finances
becomes much more difficult; so the desktop computer
has become practically a necessity in today's world.

I have an advantage; I work from my home and don't
have to drive every day. In fact, despite the gas prices
having gone up almost 300% in the last 5 years, my
cost of driving has gone DOWN almost 50% despite
buying an SUV. As a result, the quality and reliability of
my computer is a much larger factor than the price of
gas. And fortunately for me, I wasn't idiot enough to
fall for these ARMs that have the housing market in
such an uproar.

In other words, you can be Pro-active or Re-active.
One plans ahead; the other suffers.
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Guilty
tikigawd 30th Sep 2008
Blind fanaticism is annoying, and it irritates me to the point of calling the numbskulls who practice it numbskulls.

While your second paragraph may be true, calling
people names is only more likely to have people doubt
your statements.


People can doubt my opinion on the matter all they want. At the end of the day it's just my opinion.

For some, a computer is how they live and work. If it weren't for the computer, keeping up with finances
becomes much more difficult; so the desktop computer has become practically a necessity in today's world.


I believe I said it's mostly a luxury item. Mostly. What I mean by that is that for the vast majority of people it is a luxury, but for others it might be a necessity.

I have several computers at home. I enjoy them very much. They make my life more fun and convenient. But at the end of the day if I lost them and had no money to buy one I wouldn't die. Food, though I would die from not having that. Same thing goes for shelter.
I do need computers at work though, but I don't pay for those myself.

For you it might be a necessity because you do all your work from home on a computer. But even then, you will get the cheapest thing you can to get the job done. You need something more reliable because you do your work on your home computer, so a more expensive one is what you need to get the job done. But most people do menial tasks with their computers, so they have no need to plunk down extra money to read e-mails and surf the net.

A luxury item is one that makes your life more amenable, but it's not essential for you to live your life. Keeping track of finances from the comfort of your home is hardly a necessity. You can always call the bank(s) and find out what's going on with your money.

And fortunately for me, I wasn't idiot enough to
fall for these ARMs that have the housing market in
such an uproar


Good for you.
I wasn't one of those idiots either! Let's go have a beer together!
But that comment is irrelevant to the current discussion.

Obviously a lot of average Joes are low on cash.
If average Joe, who doesn't work from home, who uses the computer mostly for fun and/or convenience, runs low on money he'll put the little he has into essentials. And if he happens to have a little left he will not spend extra cash on something if he can get a cheaper alternative that gets the job done for him.
And you must consider the source as Jim was talking about waiting until you can afford a Mac as a luxury item, he was not speaking to the home business owners, at least he has not in the past so it only follows he is talking about those like himself, who have a computer for convenience and pleasure.


And on top he has to make it seem like a Mac is even close to a PC in price by saing a few extra pays could cover the difference. Most people right now can't save anything per pay, let along set aside 500.00 a pay for 2 or 3 pays.


A mac mini, as sleeper points out, is under 1K but without monitor, keyboard and those things you tend to need to use one. He states and I believe it's accurate, even a mini is 1200.00 once you add in the monitor etc. For 1200.00, i want much more than a Mac mini offers. I paid around that early this year (model is now under 1K) for high end gaming/entertainment laptop, 17" config'd to the max.


It is nonsense that Apple can compare to any other OEM in price AND configuration.

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@xunil_z...
vulpine@... Updated - 3rd Oct 2008
Ok, I won't argue for the moment that buying
keyboard, mouse and monitor
from Apple at the
same time would drive the price up. However, this is
not what the Mac Mini was designed for.

Instead, the Mini was designed to replace the tower of
an existing Windows system, allowing you to use the
keyboard, mouse and display you already have; thus
giving you more capability over a complete
budget Windows system. The Mini was intended to be
that stop-gap between buying a low-end Windows
system at the $600 price range and an iMac at the
$1500 price and up. Admittedly and unfortunately, the
Mini is underpowered compared to a bottom-end iMac
and lacks any significant means to upgrade (as does
the iMac.) However, for someone who only uses a
budget machine for web browsing and basic home-
office purposes, the Mac Mini more than meets the
need; considering I am using a G4 Mini as a DVR right
now.

Someone who wants to get the most capability for the
money and already has the peripheral components
would actually be moving up with a $600 Mini when
compared to a $600 "box special" that includes
unnecessary hardware.

I'm not saying the concept works for everyone, but it
worked for me when I bought mine, and it works for a
number of other people I know who wanted to
experiment with OS X without going 'whole-hog' into
an iMac or Mac Pro. Of course, most of these
experimenters are buying laptops first, now, but if the
Mini weren't still selling, would Apple still be building
them?
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Wait a sec
sjbinaz 30th Sep 2008
Just because you like their product doesn't make it worth it. I, for obe do not have and will not be adle to budget and save for any computer of $1000-$1500. I am using my eMachine that I bought with ME, uograded to XP,for free, they were sold that way. Knowing the machines doesn't mean you know anything about living on a fixed income and not only NOT middle class, but Poor.
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oops
sjbinaz 30th Sep 2008
I for one
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You can edit your previous message
tikigawd 1st Oct 2008
you'll see an edit link when you click on your own msg (provided you're logged in)
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iPod, iPhone, and even a computer
alaniane@... 30th Sep 2008
can be considered luxury items for a majority. You can't eat your iPod or iPhone and if the economy hurts enough the choice will be between a can of beans or an iPod, you can believe only a fool will choose the iPod.
from being too poor to travel, too poor to eat out,
too poor to get that new car toy, too poor to go
on vacation, too poor to buy that dream home.
Well, you can get a lot of entertainment and
distant social interaction on the cheap with the
new cheaper, digital lifestyle devices, that Apple
will bring out shortly. Like beer, during a
recession, these cheap substitute for travel and
social interactions will be the, better than nothing,
popular substitute pleasure ticket, during the
coming lean times. Don't thing Job's and company
haven't seen this coming. They will definitely come
out with new products and pricing strategies fit for
the circumstances at hand. Or do most of you out
there really believe that the crew at Apple, well
known for its organically integrated planning skills,
has suddenly locked up like a deer in the
headlights? Add to this the fact that in tough time
every little bit of digital advantage over the next
guy will be a serious consideration/rationalization
for buying Apple's latest, digital lifestyle
device/pleasure toy.
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For you, not me I am poor
sjbinaz 30th Sep 2008
Not if I were poor. I would never spend that kind of money. I would go to the library.
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RE: Apple: Is it really recession proof?
CyberSpy9999 29th Sep 2008
The big source of growth in the PC market is sub-$1,000 units. Apple doesn???t play the sub-$1,000 game...... Ever heard of the Mac Mini????

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini?mco=MTE3MTA
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The Mac Mini is not
GuidingLight 29th Sep 2008
a huge seller that the iMac and MacBook pro are. I beleive that due in large part to the market that Apple caters to, "bargin hunters" lean towards a low cost, "full blown" PCs.
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Slight correction
j.m.galvin 29th Sep 2008
The Macbook, in unit numbers, is Apple's
biggest seller by far. The Macbook pro
and imac trail the Macbook by quite a bit
in unit numbers.
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Sub $1000 PC
CyberSpy9999 29th Sep 2008
Just making a point that Apple does play the sub-$1,000 game and so does Dell with their HP Studio - its still a PC.
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Buyers are looking for Bundles!!
Scubajrr 29th Sep 2008
When people are shopping for the sub $1000 system they are looking at bundled systems with everything included. Computer, Monitor, Printer. A quick look at the Sunday paper shows this bundle at BestBuy. HP E2200 system speced out at $599 with 2.2gig core duo proc, 3 gig of ram, 320 gig drive, 17" LCD monitor and a HP all-in-one color printer/scanner. For that same $599 from the Mac store you get the Mac Mini speced at 1.8 gig core duo, 1 gig of ram and an 80 gig drive. The monitor is extra. printer? extra. It doesn't even come with a keyboard or mouse. So on paper, when someone goes looking for a bargain (like someone looking for sub $1000 PC) The HP is a better bargain, its faster (2.2 vs 1.8) has more ram (3g vs 1g), 4 times the hard drive (320 vs 80) and includes the monitor and printer. The Mac Mini is a cool machine but to the average bargain hunter it just can't compete.
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No new law, just an old rule
Cayble 29th Sep 2008
And its Apples rule. The rule is, never worry about putting together a system that can compete price wise with similarly equipped budget PC's.

Worse yet for Apple, the very nature of PC's allow for custom building and now there are so many places that do a good job, you can often beat the price of an "on sale" budget PC by getting one built for you. The real budget minded consumer will be doing that a little more often during tough times and unfortunately for Apple, you cant go to your local custom builder and get a budget Apple put together for you on the cheap.
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True, So?
DannyO_0x98 29th Sep 2008
Wasn't all that true last year? Isn't there always going to be
at any given moment a comparable system that will beat
the Mac in price?

When discussing computers, Apple makes durable
consumer goods. That sector eventually gets hit by a
recession. But I think you'll see comparable hits to other
computer makers in that category. The sub-notebooks
may have an impact on over $1000 laptop category, but I
think you'll find that discount form factors only bring out
the customers who weren't going to buy the top end stuff
in the first place. It's growth into a new market sector and
not at the expense of other sectors. Did the Yugo slow
down BMW sales?

It seems obvious that at some point Apple will show a year
on year decline in units sold for one or a few quarters.
What isn't obvious is when. I would have thought we would
have seen some erosion last spring. I truly wonder why
not. No matter, it will happen.
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Better look again, Cayble
vulpine@... 30th Sep 2008
When compared price-for-price with equally-equipped
Windows boxes... the Mac's price is almost exactly the
same. To get a lower price, you have to sacrifice
something, and those Windows boxes sacrifice a lot to
reach their price points.
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Equally equipped
tikigawd Updated - 1st Oct 2008
When compared price-for-price with equally-equipped
Windows boxes... the Mac's price is almost exactly the
same.


Have any examples?

But let's say it's true:

To get a lower price, you have to sacrifice
something, and those Windows boxes sacrifice a lot to
reach their price points.


Sure, but the fact is that there are cheaper alternatives, and a lot of people go that route and are OK with the trade-off.

There's also the fact that people (at least in the US) immediately assume that something is better when it's more expensive, without even knowing anything about what they're buying exactly.
You can bet that's one of the reasons Apple chooses not to offer PCs at a lower price range. They have an image to uphold.
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For once you're right about something...
vulpine@... 1st Oct 2008
... Ok, twice. I agreed with you on another blog too.

However, all you have to do is go to Apple and pick any
model you choose, then go and try to build that exact
same model at any other manufacturer. Don't forget
the wireless; don't forget the webcam if it has one;
don't forget the speakers if they're included. Don't
leave out anything. Then tell me how much cheaper it
is.

Like I said, you have to sacrifice components and
features to go cheaper than Apple. Or build it yourself.
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@vulp: examples
tikigawd 1st Oct 2008
I asked for examples, not for you to tell me to go to the Apple store...

That's just lame and makes me think you have nothing to back up your claim.
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Apple base configs...
Sleeper Service 3rd Oct 2008
...are comparable to OEM base configs. It's the upgrades that make them ridiculously priced.
... is too lazy to do his own research.

A base config Apple exceeds base-config versions of
every other name brand. Whether it be a MacBook, Mac
Mini or even iMac, to actually match the hardware and
software capabilities of a Mac out of the box, you have
to spend the same amount of dollars. What is standard
equipment for each model is optional, extra cost
equipment for the others. This includes wireless
802.11n, Bluetooth, web cam, speakers (in some cases)
and OS.
The majority of these other brands sell their base-
config units with Windows Vista Home Basic or Vista
Home Premium. This version of Windows is far below
OS X, whose closest Windows competitor is Vista
Ultimate.
These machines also don't include iLife equivalent
software, though I admit these can be downloaded free
from a number of sources. But for our purposes, you
must consider that a new buyer of a base unit is not all
that likely to understand that and know where to get
that software.

I do agree that upping the options in an Apple is more
expensive than doing the same for the competitive
product. I will also note that even Mac buyers are not
so stupid as to take this route blindly. I, myself,
purchased extra RAM for my iMacs from a third-party
vendor and installed it myself rather than pay Apple to
do so; but the average home user is not likely to have
the knowledge, skills or desire to attempt it on their
own.

You, tiki, Sleeper Service, and even non-Zealot are no
more average home users than I am. Unless you
service home users yourself, for money, I really don't
believe you can claim to speak for them with any
accuracy. I have and still do, so I believe I can speak
with some authority here.

As such, I still believe that Apple's growth will continue
to exceed that of their competition for some time to
come; likely stabilizing at somewhere between 50%-
75% of the current personal computer market. This
recession will slow them down, true; but not as much
as the other brands are slowed.
The only thing likely to stop Apple's advance is if some
new technology develops that completely changes the
game as we know it. I don't mean by making the OS
irrelevant through Web Apps, but rather by eliminating
the need for standalone machines entirely. The big
players then will be the ones with the best integrated
package.
0 Votes
+ -
Hmm...
Sleeper Service 5th Oct 2008
To a degree. What I should of said is 'comparable to Apple base configuration'. In this case we would be talking, say, a Dell Inspiron 13. Although it's base config is $599, to match it to a base spec Macbook it would cost you $744. Obviously this is still $350 cheaper than the Macbook at 1,099.

As for OSX beign equivalent to Ultimate and much better than Home Premium you're going to have to expand on the reasons why because for all practical purposes I can't see why that would be the case.

"You, tiki, Sleeper Service, and even non-Zealot are no more average home users than I am. Unless you
service home users yourself, for money, I really don't
believe you can claim to speak for them with any
accuracy. I have and still do, so I believe I can speak with some authority here."

That may be the case, however what I can use are the stats on market share, sales and overall customer satisfaction all of which indicate that most people are perfectly happy to buy a Windows based machine. I appreciate your experience but it remains anecdotal.

Against a background of a smear campaign against Windows, the halo effect of other core products and Microsoft's ineptitude when launching Vista, the market share capture of 4% US and 1.5% Global simply don't support the theory that Apple will dominate personal computing space.
Go to a place that has a good rep for building custom computers.

Pick the Apple you want to smash.

Tell them to build you a PC the cheapest they can without sacrificing any reliability, in other words, use good name brand components and put it together right, and tell them it has got to be at least significantly better then the Apple you want to smash, lets say a "general" 25%-30% better performance.

If you did in fact find one of the many many respected custom builders your PC will SMASH the Apple of your choice and will cost at least 20% less, usually less then that. And it will be incredibly reliable.

Yell and scream and call me a lier, I could care less. All I'm saying is that I for an absolute fact have done it many times now and all this garbage about comparable prices is for the "FANBOYS" only. It doesn't work now, it has never worked ever, and it never will work so long as Apple wants those 'bonus' profits from binding their OS to their hardware.
0 Votes
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Here we go again:

http://store.apple.com/ca/configure/Z0FH?mco=NzMyNjM1

iMAC 24-inch iMac

3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor

Optional 500GB

Slot-loading 8x SuperDrive (DVD?R DL/DVD?RW/CD-RW)

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS graphics processor with 512MB of GDDR3 memory

2GB (two 1GB SO-DIMMs) of 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM

Built-in iSight camera

$2,299.00



iBUILT APPLE SMASHER (Not the budget version)

http://www.canadacomputers.com/

Antec Sonata III Quiet Super Mid Tower with 500 Watt power supply $119.99

Intel Core 2 Duo E8600 Socket LGA775, 3.33 GHz, 1333 MHz FSB $339.99

Palit Radeon GRAPHICS HD 4870 512MB ATI Radeon 4870 Chipset (750Mhz) 512MB (3600Mhz) GDDR5 $269.99

Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R Socket 775 Intel P45 Express + ICH10R Chipset Dual-Channel DDR2 667/800/1066/1200Mhz SATA 3Gb/s 7.1-Channel Intel High Definition Audio Dual Gigabit Lan Firewire Dual PCI-Express 2.0 Graphic & Up to 1600Mhz FSB $164.99

Seagate Barracuda (STA'S) 7200.11 SATA NC 3.GB/s GB (1TB) 32MB Cache $139.99

LG GGC-H20L Blu-Ray HD DVD Combo Drive BD-R 6x/HD DVD-Rom 3x/16x DVD+/-R Lightscribe SATA $159.99

Samsung Syncmaster 2443BW HAS, 24" widescreen LCD, 20000:1 (dynamic), $334.99

OCZ DDR2 PC2-6400 800 MHz Reaper HPC Edition 4GB Dual Channel $85.99

Logitech (967557) Cordless Desktop S510 - USB Cordless Keyboard & Mouse $59.99

Logitech (961464) QuickCam Communicate STX 1.3 megapixels Camera $44.99


Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium 32-Bit $109.99

Assembly and OS install 29.99

$1860.88 CN

Knock about another $60 or more off that at least, if you dont mind waiting for mail in rebates.

By the way, fantasic service this, and most quality custom builders provide as well.

And this would smash the iMac to smithereens. Any other software you want, go freeware, the Linux guys will tell you its the best there is.

Apples cannot be had for this cheap or anything close to it. Drop it. Give it up. Suck it up. If you like Apples be proud of it but shut the **** up about Apple being cost effective. THEY ARE NOT AND NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BE.
0 Votes
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It's their choice.
Scubajrr 29th Sep 2008
Apple simply choses to charge a premium price. The only thing stopping Apple is Apple. If they decide to offer a $999 bundle it will need to be a good one. Fast with lots of ram, big hard drives, big screen (19" to 22" at the $999 price point) and a printer. we know that printers are cheap but they are perceived as a big value added in a bundle. (See, little Jimmy can do his homework, scan in a picture of a whale for his Moby dick report and print is out in color. He'll probably get an A+) Apple certainly has the capability, but are they willing to enter the sub-$1000 bundle market where margins are razor thin.
Or do they need a more addordable internally expandable (aka xMac) Macintosh? A reasonably priced mid-tower offering dual and quad core processors, 8-16GB DDR2 RAM exapandability, two (or more) HD capability, easy graphics expansion, standard optical expansion (to accomodate BluRay upgrades), etc. At $1,200 - $1,500 such a system would be highly attractive.
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The rule of Apple.
deowll 30th Sep 2008
A 30% or better mark up is what they said today on the news sites.

Ask Jobs. It's always been that way.
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Some are, some aren't
frabjous 29th Sep 2008
Be careful about gross generalizations about "shoppers."

First, the cheap PCs, like practically all PCs, come with
Windows or Vista, and Apple's sales increases seem to
indicate growing numbers of people want something
better, more intuitive and more stable. Most readers of this
forum are capable of avoiding problems and some claim
Vista is superior, but this is by definition a small subset of
the total computer market.

In this market, the Mini has the attraction of someone
considering switching to Mac in that they don't have to pay
for, or deal with, another mouse, keyboard or monitor
since they already have ones they are used to with their PC.
Some will even be glad they don't have to deal with having
to recycle or get rid of those same items.

So, as always, buy what works for your needs and budget,
but be aware of all your options.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Apple: Is it really recession proof?
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 11th Oct
Howdy,excellent guidebook. Informations are nfl store fairly usefull and saves me a lot time which I could expend on a single factor else in location of googling

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