Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?

By | July 16, 2010, 2:30am PDT

Summary: TechRepublic writers tackle one of IT’s never-ending questions: Why do we put up with buggy software? Here are a few answers.

This is a guest post by Michael Kassner via TechRepublic’s IT Leadership blog.

During one of the breakout sessions at TechRepublic’s Live 2010 Conference this past week, I was questioning why we put up with software that has bugs and vulnerabilities. To IT-security types like me, it’s a concern. Eliminate bugs and you shut the door on most malware.

After that particular breakout session, Toni Bowers, Head Blogs Editor for TR, and I talked about my concerns. She suggested that I pass what I learned on to you. So, here goes. I cajoled the “software savvy” TR writers into answering the following question:

Consumers would never accept a car or other traditional goods that are flawed, yet they are willing to buy software that is. Why do you think that is?

Here are their answers. I hope you find them as interesting as I do:

Chad Perrin

The question of why software vendors produce buggy software and why consumers accept it has no simple answer. The reasons vary from incompetence plus overconfidence to being the dominant business model at the other extreme. Here are some of my thoughts:

  • The dominant business model in the software industry is one that creates and relies on otherwise unnecessary complexity. That complexity both creates bugs and hides them from view. Paraphrasing C. A. R. Hoare, there are two ways to build software: Make it so simple that there are obviously no bugs, or make it so complex that there are no obvious bugs. The former is much more difficult and does not lend itself well to enticing people to upgrade to the next version.
  • People are so focused on feature marketing that they do not stop to think about bugs until it is too late. After generations of this, and of the problem getting worse all the time, end users have developed a sort of Stockholm Syndrome with regard to buggy software. They believe it is normal, expected, and inescapable.
  • Features and bugs act very similarly a lot of the time once software exceeds a particular level of complexity. They do things that are surprising, or at least unexpected. People grow used to this until they become inured to surprise without the surprising behavior being reduced at all — in fact, it only gets worse. “It’s a feature, not a bug” starts to sound reasonable and believable.

Chip Camden

Having worked in auto parts for several years, I can tell you that very few cars roll off the assembly line without any flaws. That’s why they have a thing called recalls.

Furthermore, a serious flaw in an automobile can cost someone’s life. That usually isn’t the case with software, and where it is the case (medical, missile guidance, aircraft navigation), then the extra expense of a higher attention to flawlessness is considered worthwhile.

Ultimately, it’s market-driven. We could make software that performed to much more exacting tolerances, but it would be much more costly. The buying public is content to pay a near-zero cost for “good enough” rather than putting a dent in their wallets for “flawless.” [Editor's note: you can read more from Chip Camden in TechRepublic's IT Consultant blog.]

Erik Eckel

I think the software industry is very different from most any other. Vendors must try writing software that will work on multiple platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac) and be used by a variety of users with greatly differentiated skill levels at companies working in numerous different industries. That’s a pretty tall order.

Imagine trying to make a car that could be driven by a 5′4 woman or 6′5″ man that could run on gasoline, diesel, or propane; while also possessing the ability to carry up to eight people or 6,000 pounds of payload. Oh, and it must get 28 miles to the gallon and cost less than $25K and go 100,000 miles between tune-ups.

You couldn’t do it!

So, I feel for software manufacturers. The Intuits, Microsofts, Apples, and Symantecs of the world have a wide constituency to satisfy. Someone’s always going to be complaining.

I think the 37signals guys may have it best. In their current best-seller ReWork, they note that one of the keys to their success is saying no to customers and limiting the amount of features they include in their software programs.

I think there’s a lesson there for all of us. [Editor's note: You can read more from Erik in TechRepublic's Macs in Business blog.]

Jack Wallen

The answer is very simple: Marketing. If you ask the average consumer (those who buy the bulk of computers) if they knew there was an operating system out there far superior, safer, and more reliable than the one they used AND it was free, they would react with surprise. Their first question might be “Why didn’t we know about that?” The reason is because Microsoft is a HUGE company with a HUGE PR budget and the ability to shove advertising down the throats of the consumers.

To continue with your analogy:

Tesla has a roadster that is 100% electric, can go over 300 miles on a single charge, can go from 0 to 60 in 3.7 seconds — yet the majority of people don’t know about it. Why? Marketing. If one Linux company could start to produce witty, well-done television commercials things would quickly change.

But think about this: Linux has done fairly well for itself without having to spend a penny on advertising (relatively speaking). Word of mouth has been a powerful alley to the Linux operating system. However, in order to raise it to a higher level, PR and marketing will have to be used. [Editor's note: You can read more by Jack Wallen in TechRepublic's Linux and Open Source blog.]

Justin James

Some thoughts that come to mind (as someone struggling with a phone heralded by others and the media as a “miracle phone,” but it is plagued with problems):

  • “No warranty, express or implied” is attached to every piece of software ever made and is enforceable. Consumers know that they have zero rights, so they feel happy when it works.
  • “Gadget lust” blinds people to issues. People don’t want to admit that they bought a piece of junk, so they just deal with the problems and tell everyone how much they love the software/device/etc.
  • In corporate environments, the people who live with the bad software are often the people who do not pick it. Those who did select it sweep the problems under the rug because it makes them look bad, or they feel it’s a question of “stupid users” who “just don’t get it.”
  • Too many problems do not appear until whatever initial return period of contract cancellation period is over.
  • People expect to have problems.
  • People assume that the problems are their own fault (”I’m too dumb to use this right!”).
  • In corporate environments, many products require a lengthy and expensive integration process; there is no way to accurately judge their quality until that is done, and afterward, it is often not clear if the base product or the integration work is the root cause of problems. To make matters worse, once you dump, say, $150,000 into customizing a $200,000 package that you spent $50,000 on hardware to support, do you really want to say, “gee, it looked good when we started, but this is a dud, let’s dump it”?

Overall, it’s a combination of people feeling helpless on the user end of things, and the decision makers being unwilling or unable to do anything about it once a commitment is made. [Editor's note: You can read more by Justin James in TechRepublic's Programming and Development blog.]

Patrick Gray

I think there are two factors at work that would cause me to question your premise:

Perceptions of software “flaws” are often based more on market saturation than technical elegance.

Most mainstream technical products (hardware and software) seem to have a higher incidence of flaws because they have a higher user base. This is the classic “Windows is buggy versus [a more obscure OS]” argument.

I don’t think Windows is inferior, it’s just a mass-market product and thus gets used and abused by the highest percentage of the population. Because Mac OS X has gained traction, it’s now getting hit with malware as more people use the software rather than due to some inherent flaw.

There are considerations that outweigh flawed products, mostly getting valuable features early.

I think technical elegance often becomes second fiddle to other concerns at both a corporate and personal level. Why? We want new features and are willing to put up with partially baked software. This extends to your automotive analogy as well.

I bought a new motorcycle from BMW in its first model year (ever hear the old bromide never to buy the first model year vehicle?). The bike has had four recalls, including replacing the front axle (a front axle failure at 80 mph would be bad). Despite this product having flaws, the trade-off of having an extra year’s riding was worth it to me.

If we all wanted perfect and bug-free code, first and foremost, we’d probably all be running MS DOS or a text-based Linux that hadn’t had any features added in a decade. [Editor's note: You can read more by Patrick Gray in TechRepublic's IT Leadership blog.]

Rick Vanover

While software quality should be the first priority in whether or not we implement something, many times IT customers have their hands tied. Simply forgoing a piece of software if all offerings will not meet their needs will not be an option.

The natural alternative is to develop something in-house, but that too, may be cost prohibitive. This is an age-old battle of having our hands tied in a way to get pushed along to new products, and history has done nothing but continually confirm this for us.

One example is the file server market, Novell NetWare is still a superior file server product to Windows NT, 2000, 2003, or 2008; yet we all know which way the market and broader supported configurations went. There is no simple answer on how we can address this, in my opinion. [Editor's note: You can read more by Rick in TechRepublic's Network Administrator blog.]

Final thoughts

It seems we the users want the latest and greatest software, even if it means accepting buggy code. Do you agree with the TR gurus? I know we all are anxious to learn your opinions, so let them fly.

Chad Perrin wanted me to mention that he has a lot more to say about this subject. Please look for his article in the IT Security blog of TechRepublic.

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Topics

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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In the past a lot of it was feature counting which a number of magazines did (including most of the Ziff Davis family) as a way to review software. This is the model that caused articles to say "Microsoft word is best since it has all these features" ignoring that at the time they did not integrate together and were buggy.

Today, I blame open source! For a number of years I have had a product idea that I have shopped around. Unfortunately, it requires OS support so Linux is the logical target. The problem is that the design also is for a piece of software that is extremely easy to use, and has the advantage that if there is a bug it would become obvious to the user. When I look for funding, both the VC's in the open source space as well as the guru's (including at least one ZdNet blogger) have suggested making it harder to use and less reliable so I can charge for support! So far I have refused to take this approach, so the product is stillborn.
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Are you really surprised?
Wolfie2K3 16th Jul 2010
@oldsysprog
The folks in the VC arena - regardless of whatever platform you've got in mind - aren't there to just give away a boat load of cash. Those days are gone with the Dot Bomb era. These days, if you expect them to plunk down a chunk of their money on your project, they kinda expect to see something in your business plan that includes this "evil" P word in your product's future. You know the one - PROFIT...

How else are they going to make back their investment and someday maybe see some extra cash in their pockets as well?

Given the only acceptable means to make money on Linux is to charge for support, a product that's dead simple to use, and it's obvious when there's a problem, you're going to find most, if not all of the VC people telling you the same thing.
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@Wolfie2K3
"Given the only acceptable means to make money on Linux is to charge for support".
Pardon? You can of course charge as much as the market will bear - regardless of the OS it runs under, and whether it calls up other applications that are open source - provided that it is clear that the other applications it uses are not what you are selling. This includes software that runs on any of the open source OS's Linux BSD, UNIX derivatives...
So the only question is whether you can persuade potential customers that they wish to pay a viable amount for the offering
@oldsysprog: It doesn't matter how easy it is to use. VC funding implies a certain level of complication. Thus your software, easy to use or not, will have bugs.
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@ye: Yes all software has bugs, what I find disturbing is that both VC's and leaders in Open Source have advised me to make the software harder to use, and essentially have more bugs. If this is the future of sofware with open source, then I don't want to be using it.
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@oldsysprog
What nonsense. I use some extremely highly-priced software that runs under open source. The vendors charge (typically) 15% for maintenance, but this is for new features rather than bug fixes (they also fix bugs, but these days the bugs are "irritators" rather than project- or security -critical matters)
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Formally specified pieces of software, that is pieces of software that are proven to function according to specifications can have bug, even thought they have very restrictive specifications.

But that is difficult, not totally bug proof, expensive are limited to small part of the software industry.

Not bug proff because you only validate against a set of possible states/interactions. If you fall outside of that validation domain, bugs can re appear. You must then ascertain that you correctly modelized your environment, which is a huge problem by itself.

Difficult because you must very carefully modelize the environment, the functionalities you want to offer, the restrictions you are willing to place upon them, the tests you will perform to validate all this choices...

Expensive because tools to support all this cost a lot of money, but this is nothing compared to the pay check you will have to give to architects engineers and the like to perform all of this activity, plus those to validate it.

Limited to a small part of the industry because as soon as you introduce user interaction, the realm of possible state for your software simply explodes. If you have n functionalities and you consider a sequence of p interactions, you have n^p possibilities with n=p=20 that make 10^26 possibilities. A software with only 20 features is a really small software. But if a tester has the possibility to test one sequence every second, and if you employ all India to perform the tests you will need 3 billion years to finish the test campaign. Interactive software a impossible to prove. You can prove subset of them if your architecture is properly done. But this filed of computer science is new; at least its introduction within the industry is quite recent. ( for instance intel began proving its chips only after the pentium bug ). Architecture of current software on the other hand is old. Windows NT ? architectured in the very early 90s, Oracle ? in the 70s/80s. Of course these architecture were revised over time, but you can never clean the slate because its too expensive, too difficult, produces immature software, and jeopardize market shares...

Bugs are consubstantiation with consumer software. procedures and tools to have more control over software quality are diffusing within the industry, but they won't change radically things in the near future, and won't eliminate bugs anyway
Early adopters will accept having to manually prime their 1920s car with fuel, warm the brakes up with a candle before setting off.
But laggards won't buy until the cost of ownership (in terms of self-tech support) is low.
Cellphones are packed with software, but most non-smart phones are very stable. If they aren't it's as good as buggy hardware, and people won't buy the phone.
Computers are going the same way. In most organisations, they currently employ people to keep the unreliable software running, like at one stage companies had a team of mechanics keeping their cars going. But it will change.
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I asked that question to a ZDNet blogger a year or so ago and he said that it's impossible to write bug free software. I'm not a programmer, so I can't really comment on the subject. However, here is a link to an article I read a long time ago that says it can be done. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html
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They don't say it can be done
s_souche 16th Jul 2010
@riverab@...
They say that a program that has a very limited, predicted function can do that. You can right a bug free square root program, and prove it is bug free. But you cannot write a program that accept complex interaction and prove it. At of today you cannot prove an asynchronous program is bug free.

Even in the article you point to programs are not bug free, as they list the number of bugs found. And these bugs were found from 1993 to 1996 during.... 27 missions.
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@riverab@...

The problem is that the people who wrote and edited that article have no idea what they are talking about.
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
Loverock Davidson 16th Jul 2010
Of all the people you asked Eril Eckel seems to have the best grasp of software. I don't know who Jack Wallen is but he seems to be the one with the least amount of knowledge on software. Actually he seems to be quite out of touch with software, business, and customers.

The reason we put up with buggy software is because its not a matter of life or death generally speaking. If flash crashes on my browser it doesn't harm me in any way. I open the browser again and continue browsing. Software can be quite complex and is prone to human error due to just a simple typo in the code or going one digit off in an algorithm.
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@Loverock Davidson

If you don't know who Wallen is, then why didn't you Google the name before commenting? YOU must be the one out of touch with the times to forget about doing this.
He is a self-confessed "glorified cheerleader for Linux". This would explain why he blames everything on marketing.

That said, he is not that far off: marketing really is a significant factor. But where he is wrong is in his supposition that this "superior, safer, and more reliable" even exists.

Linux is "superior, safer, and more reliable" ONLY if you are not trying to do the same many things people routinely do with Windows.
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@mejohnsn

Hmmm... I do many things people routinely do in Windows on Linux and so far it has proven to be superior, safer, and more reliable. While the safer and more reliable factors are things that can be backed up by facts, the idea of a SUPERIOR OS is completely and absolutely opinion. Linux, openSUSE in particular, is superior to Windows or Mac OS X for me. It works the way I want, it is free, it does every single thing I need to do and is reliable and secure. But Windows or OS X may be superior to someone else. My friend is a HUGE Microsoft fanboy and is a much bigger gamer than I am. Windows has the strangle hold on games so that is one reason it is superiour for him. It can easily be argued that DOS or OS/2 are superior for certain applications and they are.

The automotive analogy is something I have actually been thinking about and is right on the money when it comes to the OS space in computers in particular. Oil, or gasoline I should say, is the monopoly on car fuels and the vast majority of the cars out there are run on it. Does that mean it is a superior fuel? No. Oil is analogous to Microsoft and cars are analogous to all the software companies out there. Software companies do not write software for Windows because it is superior, they write for it because they would not make any money if they didn't. If Linux had say a 25-30% share of the market, things would be very different.

But it is not really marketing, it is to a degree, but the bigger factor is still synonymous with the automotive analogy. Things are stuck in an uncompetitive cycle of limited options for the average Joe (or Jane). If someone goes to buy a car, they will be hard pressed to happen upon one that isn't powered by some sort of oil derivative. Those that do either stumble upon it and it is too different/new for them to be interested in, or they sought it out being specifically interested in it. Like wise, if someone goes to buy a new computer, they will be hard pressed to find one that is not running Windows unless they stumble upon one or they seek it out. And in that respect some people will seek out Macs and you know why? Because of marketing. Until Apple started their T.V. ads I never saw one Mac in a store. Now my Best Buy has a whole area set up for them. And that advertising gives them credibility to people who otherwise would not know anything about them. Does it mean they are better than Linux which they might have seen on a random netbook somewhere but otherwise have never heard of? No, but those commercials sure make it seem that way in their head. Now if the Tesla company had some commercials on T.V., then a lot more people would be interested in them, but as it is not that many people have and so only those who know about them and specifically seek them out really care.

But in reference to Linux, it has done pretty fricken well for something that is available for freeand has no real advertising other than word of mouth. That one or two percent may not sound like much, but compare that to the 5 odd percent market that OS X has given Apple's vast amount of T.V. commercials. Linux also continues to experience growth unlike some OSes... but I suppose once you have completely saturated the market there is really only one way to go and it isn't up...
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When the dominant player in the base market (the OS) is a monopoly, users think that there is no alternative to buggy, slow and cludjy bloatware. "Oh, computers just do that. Go ahead and reboot."

If users ever got a taste of a stable, lean and modular OS, they would never even think about going back.
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Where to start...
raul.vejar@... 16th Jul 2010
You can find a million articles and papers about this topic, with very different opinions. A few that pop to mind:
- We are a much younger industry. Software development as an industry just hasn't have the chance to mature to the point were our methods are beyond craftsmanship as other industries such as civil construction has.
- We do not use assembled components. If you think about it, cars and planes are built from pre-assembled components that have been tested individually and used in previous successful products. So in a way the only place were defects can be introduced is in the assembly. In software we are not there yet and some argue we will never be because of:
- Software technology changes too fast. Although this is very controversial, most people tend to agree that even though the underlying technology hasn't changed that much (we are still using what are basically the same Von Neumman computer architectures from 50 years ago), the changes in software technology and the introduction of new highly disruptive technologies such as networking, mobile computing, GUI, SOA, have made us have to reinvent most of our methods and tools again preventing much needed maturity
- Software is everywhere. The fact that software must be built for so many different domains and environment makes it hard to achieve a level of specialization that will result on proven tools and techniques to be developed that will prevent defects on the next generation. In other words, software for cell phones is too different from software for accounting which is very different form the software that goes inside the space shuttle and hence what we know in every attempt does not cross domains.
-
- Education focused on programming and not engineering. The problem of software development is that the methods and techniques you use to build a "Hello World" program are completely inadequate when building an ERP. But still education is focused on teaching programming first and then software engineering as an afterthought and usually in a 1 semester course. This creates generations of software developers that do not understand the consequences of building software the way they do and fail to scale up to the required attributes of enterprise software such as quality, reliability, maintainability, etc.
- Quality is expensive. Zero defects is possible, as the people that perform clean room software have demonstrated, it just takes a lot of money, stable business and organizational environments and highly trained and experienced people. You can't test for every condition in any complex software, but you can certainly attempt no defects are introduced in it's construction process.
- Software is etheral: Unlike car building which is based on physical models, software are based on mathematical ones, and as such are much harder to visualize and test with traditional industrial mechanisms. Some have successfully bridged this with techniques such as model driven development (like NASA) that allows them to ensure the main behavior of the software is ensured from inception and test several conditions. This, of course, does not ensure there are no defects, only that the program will behave like the model (which is simpler to build and test).

From a market perspective, I agree we have become "trained" to expect defects in our software and live with it as long as it is not critical but I can think of several companies whose poor quality products have built them a reputation they can never shake of which in many cases has lead to their demise.
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Disagree
MSFTWorshipper 16th Jul 2010
@raul.vejar@... Increasingly developers are using pre-assembled components. Ever hear of .NET Framework?
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
raul.vejar@... 16th Jul 2010
@MSFTWorshipper

I was referring to components that handle specific functionality such as handling graph rendering or email sending.
.Net is a more generic purpose framework meant to build components that provide the specific functionality. Even using .net u still have tons of code to produce to get any useful functionality which will introduce more defects. The point here is to use components that provide the required functionality from endpoint to endpoint as to avoid having to write that code yourself and avoid introducing new defects.
Sorry if there was any confusion in this point, component is a very generic word, I should have been more specific.
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@MSFTWorshipper

You miss the point. The example he gave of assembly of components was still fundamentally different. The difference was that if you find a bug in the assembled product, it is almost certainly NOT in the components, it was introduced by the assembly.

.NET Framework is nowhere near that level of reliability. You must not assume that the bug was introduced by the assembly, even if that working assumption is OK for the first 15 minutes of debugging.
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@raul.vejar@...
Even though I am only an economist, I concur with your line of thinking. I do, however, believe that (at least) attempting to make a high quality (almost perfect;-)) product only appears to be expensive. Correcting mistakes on a faulty product (no matter what it is) later comes at high cost... maybe even the loss of market share or worse. Profit at all cost is not working, ever.
The consumer is not stupid. In a communist world consumers have little or no choice to buy junk or get nothing... Microsoft e.g. has created a situation similar to that in a communist environment for all of us. WE ALL had LITTLE CHOICE, but to follow their flag, and still MS can almost dictate any type of junky OS on 90+% of all computer users... Think about it.
No car-, washing machine-, TV- manufacturer has that kind of clout. No other company has it. It does scare me.
Thanks, and forgive my bad command of the English language.
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@IKE:)

OTOH, I think you do make some good points, but unfortunately, I cannot agree that "the consumer is not stupid".

For that matter, though you are mostly right about correcting mistakes, you seem to miss the point made earlier: it is specifically to HIDE from that cost that software EULA tends to insist on absolutely no warranty, expressed or implied.
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
raul.vejar@... 19th Jul 2010
@IKE:)
Barry Boehm wrote a paper years ago that showed how defects in software became more expensive to fix depending the phase in which they were detected. Nobody argues that the more far along you are in the development cycle, the harder (and more expensive) it is to fix something.
As I tried to point out in other points, it takes techniques like modeling and inspections to catch defects earlier. Why developers avoid them is another topic but from my point of view is usually tied down to being unable to measure the benefits of the different techniques and hence reverting to the basic ones which is build it and then try it out to see if it works. Higher maturity companies usually perform methods like this complemented with traditional testing with very good yields.
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
mejohnsn Updated - 16th Jul 2010
@raul.vejar@...

But there is a major problem here: you ASSUME that "methods beyond craftmanship" are the mark of 'maturity' when you say, "software development as an industry just hasn't have the chance to mature to the point were our methods are beyond craftsmanship as other industries such as civil construction has."

But as C.A.R. Hoare and Dijkstra have so prominently pointed out: the software industry, or 'computer science' really IS fundamentally different from all these other fields because of the exploding complexity we deal with, and must deal with on a daily basis.

No other branch of engineering or science has this problem, no other branch can be characterized by how it deals with this complexity.

But since it is so fundamentally different, there is no sound reason to suppose that its mark of 'maturity' will be the same either.
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
raul.vejar@... 19th Jul 2010
@mejohnsn

I do agree that software development is different from civil construction, I actually mentioned later that being founded on mathematical spaces instead of physical ones makes a great difference when building and testing software.
What I tried to say with the statement you quoted is that we are still developing techniques to build software products and that we haven't had as many years as other older disciplines to decide which ones work and on what context. Civil construction is a good example because there is physical evidence of the evolution that discipline had to go through to reach a point where they can rely on a finished building to remain standing as long as their assumptions about the context in which the building lies are correct. Software development will obviously go through a different evolution but the end goal should be the same, have our products work reliably as defined by their builders in a defined context.
One final thing, just because software development is different doesn't mean we need to throw away everything we know from other disciplines. We have borrowed shamelessly from disciplines such as discrete math on algorithmic performance and even traditional architecture on design patterns. Others like the software factory didn't work as well. But we can decide that after we adapt them and measure their performance.
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Bug-Free is a MYTH
tomogden 16th Jul 2010
Perrin had it right. Because of the complexity of software, there are always thousands of bugs, most of them known only to the creator company, where a bug is defined as "unexpected behavior". It's impossible to fix 100% of the bugs. All they can do is triage the known bugs and fix the ones with the highest priority.

The challenge is knowing where to draw the line and launch the product. The danger is that your estimation of the significance of your bugs may be flawed. Seldom is there a case where a significant bug is wholly unknown.
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@tomogden

Not true. World-famous computer scientist and author Donald Knuth correctly insists that his most famous program, TeX, is bug-free.

You should take his word for it, since his expertise and authority are so well-established.

But then why don't see see more bug-free programs? Because in order to achieve that bug-free status, TeX had to go without substantial new features or revisions for several years. Most of us cannot wait that long for most of our programs.
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@tomogden
Your are absolutely spot on. The only people that spout the myth of bug-free are (1)non-developers (2)consultants trying to sell the myth to your boss for a boatload of money.

To be sure, there is always the process of reducing the number and severity of bugs, and the tools and methodology are always improving.

But a program with millions of logic branch combinations (not to mention the time-domain problems of asynchronous programming) will unfortunately contain bugs.
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The car analogy
itpro_z 16th Jul 2010
Software and cars do have one thing in common: They both rely on human interaction to operate, and humans are known for doing the wrong thing at the worst possible time. Consider Toyota's recent adventures. It was suggested back at the time when runaway cars were common in the news that some, and perhaps most, of the problems were due to drivers hitting the gas pedal instead of the brakes. Now that the black boxes have been analyzed (after a massive recall), that theory has proven to be correct. Toyota lost substantial money and took a massive hit to their reputation because of driver error rather than faulty design.

Back in the day when I used to teach programming, I always told my students that making a program do whatever was required was not enough. Since the software would be used by us flawed humans, the programmer must also allow for the unexpected. Anticipate the user doing the wrong thing and build in safeguards to prevent any damage. That is fine for simple software, but far more difficult as the complexity increases. The number of variables approaches infinity, and it is almost impossible to anticipate every possible action that a user might take. Add to that the relatively new concept of hackers actually attacking software and purposely trying to elicit failure for their own gain and you have a monumental task. Considering this, I think that most software companies do a respectable job.

Back to Toyota, I expect that their engineers are now considering how to protect their cars, and drivers, from the common mistake of hitting the gas pedal instead of the brakes. Can this be solved by software, or will any attempt to do so just make the cars more complex and therefore opening the door for future unanticipated problems?
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@itpro_z

Could you please provide links to articles about Toyota? It's news to me that there was any conclusion of driver error.

Besides, how would a stuck gas pedal look any different in the data when compared to a driver intentionally flooring it?
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Numerous sources...
itpro_z 16th Jul 2010
@aep528

...reported the NTSA's findings, including the Wall Street Journal. Now, some are saying that Toyota somehow put the NTSA up to the story.

As to why the data could tell the difference between a stuck gas pedal and driver error, consider that the black box records driver input. If the driver hits the gas pedal by mistake, they would claim that they were braking while the data recorded would show no brake input. Likewise, if the gas pedal sticks, the driver would hit the brakes in an attempt to slow down, which would be recorded.

Keep in mind that engineers at the time could find no problems with Toyota's brake pedal mechanism, leading to speculation that it was a software glitch. A thorough examination of the software also could find no problems. Of course, once the story went main stream, there were also proven attempts to fake the problem as a prelude to suing Toyota.
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The answer is surprisingly simple
NonZealot 16th Jul 2010
We put up with buggy software because software without bugs would be ludicrously expensive.

It isn't so much that bug free software can't be written, it is more that writing (relatively) bug free software would be so expensive and take so long that users would actually be worse off. For less than $200, you could buy any of the mainstream OSs and get something that works 99.9% of the time. Or... for $200,000, you could buy a PC that worked 99.9999% of the time. Which would you rather have?
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@NonZealot
FOSS software is released daily that contradicts this point. None of it is "bug free" but is markedly better and more stable than ANYTHING I have ever paid for.

For example, I am responding to your comment on an x86 machine, running the Firefox web browser on an Ubuntu 9.10 desktop. With the one exception of a proprietary Database client that did require purchase, my ENTIRE software suite cost absolutely $0. With this environment, I manage a complex environment of almost one hundred mission critical production databases (Oracle and MSSQL). The only reason I ever even look at Windows is for my email (stupid exchange server)!

I am using the best software of my life, lightning fast, extremely stable, almost instantaneous boot and start times, and I paid NOTHING for it.

So where exactly is that "ludicrously expensive?"
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
MSFTWorshipper 16th Jul 2010
@CarlosHawes Please tell us how you make money using FOSS.
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You actually make an excellent point
NonZealot 16th Jul 2010
@CarlosHawes
So where exactly is that "ludicrously expensive?"

You do make an excellent point so I thank you for bringing it up. The truth of the matter is that Linux is ludicrously expensive if you were to add up all the man hours that have gone into it. The great thing about Linux though is that people can enjoy the fruits of everyone else's labour.

So while I stand by my statement that writing bug free software is ludicrously expensive, you bring up an excellent point in that the end user isn't necessarily the one who has to pay for it.

Thanks!
  • Flagged
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If you have an ultimate solution for bugs, the entire software industry is all ears. We all want to have bug-free software.

"if they knew there was an operating system out there far superior, safer, and more reliable than the one they used AND it was free"

That's what the Open Source people claim - but I'm not sure it's entirely true on all counts. "superior" in particular is a pretty vague term.

In particular, Open Source OSes do not have native support for Windows applications - and I think the Open Source movement underestimates the importance of compatibility.

If there's one thing Open Source does excel at - it's beating their own drum and ignoring what the market really wants.

"Tesla has a roadster that is 100% electric, can go over 300 miles on a single charge, can go from 0 to 60 in 3.7 seconds ? yet the majority of people don?t know about it. Why? Marketing."

Marketing and price. The thing costs as much as a house!

As awesome as that thing is - most people would rather buy a house. $100k tends to be something most people can afford only once their entire lives.

Anyways, back to Linux:

I think it's not just marketing. If Linux were really a kickass OS with little to no issues at all, it could certainly become more popular. I think there's a bit of denial going around about the importance of compatibility and the true friendliness of the UI.

In addition, I think they tend to miss out on the psychological importance of the price of an item: Price often equates to value and quality - any economist will tell you that. And regardless of whether Linux really has some value and quality, people aren't gonna see it as long as it proudly wears its "free" price tag.

I've seen products actually make more sales when a minimal price tag is attached to them, rather than being free.

That's how luxury items and brand names thrive: They may charge FAR more than the item actually costs to make, yet the perception of quality and the bandwagon effect means that customers will pay more to buy them - and that holds true even if the true quality difference between the premium item and a generic item is minimal.

But the problem is, nobody is really stepping up to bat to market it or sell it. And to a certain extent, some licenses may actually forbid selling certain parts of it.

IMO they're still stuck with a philosophy problem: Their philosophies aren't really all that well thought out, and frankly if they really want to be popular, they may need to kill some of their sacred philosophies.

I'm sure their philosophies are well intentioned - but that's what the road to he** is paved with. And, frankly, maybe it's time to put some of them to rest, as they're not really all that great. They sound good when spoken, but they're not based on reality.
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@CobraA1

"Price often equates to value and quality - any economist will tell you that. And regardless of whether Linux really has some value and quality, people aren't gonna see it as long as it proudly wears its "free" price tag.

I've seen products actually make more sales when a minimal price tag is attached to them, rather than being free."

That's a good point. For years users have been conditioned to think that "free" means a crippled trial version. That still exists today in the Apple and Android app stores - there are often paid versions of free apps that have more capable features.

True, it has nothing to do with Linux, or FOSS, but it is still an ingrained mentality that must be overcome.

The other hurdle free software faces is the "it just works" mentality. We are used to buying things from cars to DVD players that can just be plugged in or powered on, and away we go. If the option didn't exist at the time of purchase, it never gets added later.
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@aep528

"but it is still an ingrained mentality that must be overcome."

It arises naturally out of basic economics: Physical goods are generally not created by volunteers. Open Source tries to change that principle, and unless you want to change the fundamental way economics for physical goods works, that's not a mentality that will ever disappear.

"The other hurdle free software faces is the 'it just works' mentality. We are used to buying things from cars to DVD players that can just be plugged in or powered on, and away we go."

And there's nothing unrealistic about that expectation, even with computers and software. People want it to work out of the box, and I don't see why it shouldn't be that way.
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@CobraA1
Dave32265 16th Jul 2010
I will disagree with you on one point. Marketing is indeed a huge factor in why Linux hasn't gained the momentum on the desktop. If it isn't touted in the mass media, the average person (non-tech) doesn't see or hear about it, the obvious conclusion is for them it doesn't exist. No Linux isn't for everyone, but I'd like to see more people have the choice and the only way this will happen is to advertise.

I agree wholeheartedly, as a Linux user, compatibility is a huge issue and would love to see more of it, but you can't just blame open source for this. As I see it blame lies with both OS and developers. Any program out there can be ported to Linux but this costs money and we go right back to the marketing issue.

One last thing about philosophies. I think you sell most Linux users short here. Yes, we do enjoy the idea of free (as in beer) software but most of us have no problems paying for it as well. After all coders have to live too. Like with everything else, zealots and extremists are the minority, it's just that people tend to focus on them more for some reason.
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@CobraA1
All I can say for sure is that, after over a year of almost exclusive use of Ubuntu, I will NEVER go back to windows, unless an employer forces me to. I have never been so happy computing in my entire 14 year IT career. Things just work. They work fast. They work stable. I have six virtual desktops open all the time on a rotating compiz cube (why can't MS ever implement more than a single desktop). And except for lack of a good email client that communicates with the cludjy, proprietary exchange, I have always been able to find a linux based app that does its job better than anything I was ever forced to use on Windows. Why would I ever go back????
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@CarlosHawes "Things just work. They work fast. They work stable."

That describes my Windows 7 experience.

"I have six virtual desktops open all the time on a rotating compiz cube"

Congrats, you understand something that's not quite user friendly. Truth be known, most people aren't used to that type of multitasking. My mother only keeps one or two apps open at a time - she'd never have any use for multiple desktops.

IMO there are other ways to handle multiple applications anyways. Windows 7 groups multiple windows with previews on hover, and I'm running dual monitors. Never really felt the need for multiple desktops.

"I have always been able to find a linux based app that does its job better than anything I was ever forced to use on Windows."

There's no way on Earth I'm ever gonna call these apps better on Linux, at least not in their current state:

-OpenOffice.org (UI is from last generation, doesn't have many advanced Office features, and compatibility is often a concern)

-The GIMP (The UI is a running joke, even with recent improvements)

-The various poor replacements for OneNote. Truth be known, there doesn't seem to be anything to replace it.

-Steam (Linux's games are a joke)

-Drivers. My devices are just as important as my software.
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Example of "Free" vs "For Sale"
pfyearwood 16th Jul 2010
@CobraA1

I see the point of what you have to say about perceived value of "Free" software vs "Paid" software. A few years ago I heard a local story about a couple who bought a new sofa and put the old one in the front yard with a sign saying "Free". It sat for over a week. Then they put on a new sign saying "For Sale. $25." It was gone the next day. No one wanted free. Kind of like why some people would rather use pirated Windows instead of free Linux. I started using Linux when I could not afford a new computer for Vista and started dual booting with XP. Now, I have Ubuntu as my OS (on a new homebrewed computer)with XP on Virtual Box and a separate Windows computer for my wife.

I also left my set of golf clubs on the front porch because I no longer want to be that frustrated. It took two weeks for someone to steal them. I offered them to a youth golf group but they did not want left handed clubs. Now, when I want to face frustration, I turn on my computers. It does not matter what OS I use. My wife has to turn up the TV set.

Paul
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@pfyearwood

"I also left my set of golf clubs on the front porch because I no longer want to be that frustrated. It took two weeks for someone to steal them."

Kinda sad that anybody would steal them at all - buy hey, that's the broke society we live in.

Maybe eBay might've worked better.
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The Droid will now pull ahead for good. Adobe will roar back as well on more mobile devices. This will hurt Apple as much as Toyota and GM recalls. The top dogs always fall. It is now Apple's turn. In a strange way that great stock news about Apple a month ago was a curse.
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I think that all answers of the "experts" and all comments have their merits.
What we seem to forget is to answer the simple question: "WHY ARE THERE FAULTS in SOFTWARE or any other PRODUCTS?
In the case of Microsoft we, the consumers, have very little choice. Not all of us are experts, but we do use a product and find the shortcomings. The problem starts right there. How do we communicate a problem (as we see it) so that the company listens...? the answer is: almost impossible to get the attention, except if we have a choice. In the case of OS's we hardly have a choice which would give us all we want and need from it. I still believe that in the case of Microsoft XP vs. VISTA I choose XP, because it does not force me to follows set rules. VISTA is terrible, then the greatest Software maker offers Win7... and I ask: Is THAT ALL MICROSOFT CAN DO???
It is possible to make a product, which is near perfect... and it is nonsense to say: OH, too expensive to waste time on a product in order to strive for perfection. We know there is none.
BUT, once a product hits the market the ASS;-) short for After Sales Service, if working, defines to me as a consumer, if the company cares. I give credit to those who correct their mistakes. We all would.
In the case of the iPHONE4 Jobs made the mistake of claiming there was no problem, by doing so telling us, the consumers: Hey Stupid we know, but you don't.
All we can expect is that promises are kept, and mistakes are corrected, even if only 0.5% have a problem... If 0.5% of a given faulty product are actually reaching the market and are sold, then add those who think the problem is normal, or they have not encountered it yet. Then add those products which do not leave the production facility, because they have been found faulty.
THAT is the true number, and the top guys in those companies KNOW IT.

Remember: There was no problem on Wall Street... there also was no problem with BPs policy...

Attitude in the ivory towers is the problem, the fact that EVERYTHING is allowed as long as profits are maximized and shareholders get what they came for.

Forgive my bad English, I am not American;-)
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When program is written there will be bugs. The most importing is that the program is fixed. There companies that don't fix the bugs. I buy software from companies that fix bugs when they found by there customer.
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A wee bit of humor
CodeCurmudgeon 16th Jul 2010
The Last Bug

?But you're out of your mind,?
They said with a shrug.
?The customer's happy;
What's one little bug??

But he was determined.
The others went home.
He spread out the program,
Deserted, alone.

The cleaning men came,
The whole room was cluttered
With memory-dumps, punch cards.
?I'm close,? he muttered.

The mumbling got louder,
Simple deduction,
?I've got it, it's right,
Just change one instruction.?

It still wasn't perfect,
As year followed year,
And strangers would comment,
?Is that guy still here??

He died at the console,
Of hunger and thirst.
Next day he was buried,
Face down, nine-edge first.

And the last bug in sight,
An ant passing by,
Saluted his tombstone,
And whispered, ?Nice try.?
(Anonymous in Datamation, CA 1968-70)
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Why pick on software? As an ex-programmer, software is enormously complex, the average car by comparison is a lego set. It is generally believed that it is impossible to develop any significant software that is completely bug free.

The comments about VCs (and others) suggesting engineering in bugs and complexity to create a need for (paid) support is just a part of the disgusting reality of capitalism... the only good is profit, serving the investors and screwing the customers.

Of course, this does not only apply to software. This is why so many TVs CD/DVD drives, printers.... (insert your own list here) that are designed to survive the warranty and die.

it may be profitable but it is short-sighted and wasteful. Maybe one day a better paradigm will be found. I hope the Earth can last that long.
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Chip Camden is an idiot
ahh so 17th Jul 2010
Furthermore, a serious flaw in an automobile can cost someone?s life. That usually isn?t the case with software, and where it is the case (medical, missile guidance, aircraft navigation), then the extra expense of a higher attention to flawlessness is considered worthwhile.

Oh no?

Given all the technological Oooo's and Ahhh's about fly-by-wire and drive-by-wire (think Airbus and Toyota), when a computer system fails, people begin to die.

It doesn't just partially fail, or partially work. It epically fails with tragic consequences.

For him to make a statement like that just goes to show you what a clueless jerk he is.
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RE: Buggy software: Why do we put up with it?
manpaul Updated - 17th Jul 2010
First and foremost Jack Wallens comment is just another anti-windows rant, so ditto with it. But as for the others that compare software and automobiles, the authors need to reconsider their opinions. For one software designers have to deal with hundreds or thousands of different inputs from users of different levels, most of which are not pros. On the other hand an automobile maker knows exactly what a driver is going to do at each and every step. Simply put the options with automobiles are too few to use it as an example. As for the argument about open source, time, money, etc. Plan 9 OS took so many years to develop and yet it still has its own share of bugs. So software is just too complex to expect it to have zero bugs. But there is always a threshold and it should be designed to spit diagnostics early so users can take action before it's too late.
Oh just in case one wonders, I am also a Linux user so my comment about Jack Wallen's comment is not an anti-Linux rant.

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