Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Can Oracle collect on Android too?

By | July 8, 2011, 9:50am PDT

Oracle is working hard to keep its Java patent claims going in its ongoing lawsuit against Google over Android and if you follow the money the reasons are fairly obvious. Oracle wants to collect from Android device makers just like Microsoft does.

Florian Mueller recaps the latest on Oracle’s efforts to keep its Java patents going. Oracle is suing Google and wants big Android damages and royalties. Mueller noted that Oracle wants to notch a Google win and then go after other device makers.

But there’s another possibility: Oracle could go after device makers now even before the result of the Google trial. Wouldn’t some device makers pay Oracle a royalty fee for protection regardless of the Google lawsuit outcome?

Also see: Google’s Android IP headache may become a migraine

Microsoft is already announcing a bevy of licensing deals with Android device makers such as General Dynamics Itronix, Onkyo and Wistron. The common thread between these device makers: They’re all too small to waste time losing to Microsoft in court. Once Microsoft nailed a licensing deal with HTC all the smaller players had to fall in line.

Oracle could just use Microsoft’s Android playbook with its Java patents.

In the end, you could have a nightmare scenario for Android. Anyone can use the free OS, but first you have to pay Microsoft and Oracle before possibly being sued by Apple, who isn’t likely to license its patents on any terms to a rival.

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Rabid Howler Monkey 11th Jul
@Zogg

One wonders if it is really true. And if it is true, then while Sun's Java devs were flooding the USPTO with bogus patent applications, Congress and the White House were busy raiding the USPTO's cookie jar (they're self funded) to find more money to stuff down their assorted rat holes. Are Sun's Solaris patents bogus too I wonder?

In addition, one must really wonder whether Sun's Java devs had competitions to see who could code the goofiest bugs into their Java code. 'Cause Java is right up there with Adobe Flash Player and Reader software as the most exploited software on the Windows desktop today.

Nice work guys and gals (including Congressmen and Congresswomen).
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Magic 8 ball says...
Bruizer 8th Jul
"Better not tell you now"
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@Bruizer

nt
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I guess patents
Michael Alan Goff 8th Jul
are a great source of income when your product can't make money on its own. ^_^
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
x I'm tc Updated - 8th Jul
@goff256

Who's products would that be? The >10 billion-a-quarter Oracle's or the >15 billion-a-quarter MS?

Or did you mean Android, which Google gives away?
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Now that's interesting
William Pharaoh 8th Jul
@jdakula
If you think about it - MS making money from Android via handset makers, handset makers making money from Android via free OS, Oracle possibly making from Android money through patent licensing in the future, and Google is making how much? Nothing?
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You are talking about companies
Michael Alan Goff 8th Jul
I was talking about products, individual products.

We don't even know what patents Microsoft has, or I'd comment on them. If Oracle was making real money off of Java, though, they wouldn't be doing this.

Please try to restrict your answer to a product and not a company. Thank you. ^_^
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@jdakula - while the base Android OS is (relatively) free, if you want all of Google's add-ons such as Maps, Gmail, etc. then you have to pay Google a license fee.

One can't help but wonder if it'll end up being cheaper to license WinPhone 7/8/... rather than license Android + Google Apps + MS' Patents + Oracle's Patents + everyone else's patents.
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Poor Android ^.^
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No way Larry Elli$on!
Linux Geek 8th Jul
The community would not allow FOSS to be raped by Oracle and will fight back, shaming the patent crooks as it did with $CO.
Oracle should drop the lawsuit and apologise!
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Darkninja962@... 8th Jul
@Linux Geek
I know everything you say is a joke but I just....it just hurts sometimes to read what you post.
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@Darkninja962@...
so $CO demise at the hands of FOSS was a joke?
truth hurts only the patent trolls and Oracle does not have a case!
All respectable legal scholars said so. Just read it on groklaw!
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@Darkninja962@...

That is the sad part.
  • Flagged
And its information is frequently suspect and needs to be read with special goggles.
@Bruizer
"And its information is frequently suspect and needs to be read with special goggles."

Strange that Groklaw has frequently been proved right, then. Perhaps your "special goggles" are actually some kind of blindfold? You are of course free to point out anything you believe to be inaccurate on Groklaw, rather than this random and unspecific sniping.
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@Linux Geek who cares about the community, this is all decided in a court of law. And what community, the freeloaders who take advantage of the people who put their time? Prefer the getting paid for what I work, and the I use it therefore I pay, so none is hard done. Android is becoming a minefield by the day.
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Not a good omen for Oracle
DonRupertBitByte 8th Jul
Since the USPTO is re-examining some of the Oracle patents that means they could be whittled down in scope or thrown out completely, which is no benefit to Oracle. Without their patents as-is, they won't get the payment they originally hoped for, assuming Google has indeed infringed...
@DonRupertBitByte

That means nothing.
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
DonRupertBitByte 8th Jul
@Bruizer

It means everything if the a final action is issued and some of Oracle's patents are thrown out. Oracle needs the patents to be a threat to Google.

EPIC FAIL.
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@ DonRupertBitByte

These things take several years to work out and the patent re-examination is always a part of the process. It is just that, part of the process and at this point is 100% meaningless.

Typically, part or some of the claims will be discarded but seldom will all of the claims be discarded. The patent infringer is still fully on the hook for the claims that are infringed.

At this point, we have no idea how this could turn out.

It could cost Google nothing. It could cost them $10,000,000,000 plus ongoing payments.

we simply do not know at this point in time

Your understanding of the process is simplistic and the only EPIC FAIL here.
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@DonRupertBitByte

"Apon re-examination of the patents in question, the USPTO upholds the validity of the original patents, those belonging to Oracle, the patent holders and owners"

Which would mean that Google pays, plus the interest and other time related costs.
@DonRupertBitByte

What strikes me as funny about the request for re-examination is that Google now employs Eric Schmidt (Sun's CTO and a Java project manager), James Gosling (popularly known as the father of Java) and other ex-Sun Java experts.

These Java patents were granted when all these current Google employees were Sun employees. And now these same people are crying foul because the patents are prior art, too broad, whatever. One wonders what they were doing at Sun when these patents were granted in the first place. Sun took their patent portfolio very seriously even if they were only to be used for defensive purposes towards the end.
@Rabid Howler Monkey

"Even though we had a basic distaste for patents, the game is what it is, and patents are essential in modern corporations, if only as a defensive measure," he writes. "There was even an unofficial competition to see who could get the goofiest patent through the system."

And Charles Nutter, ex-Sun employee, called the patents involved "laughable":

"The collection of patents specified by the suit seems pretty laughable to me. If I were Google, I wouldn't be particularly worried about showing prior art for the patents in question or demonstrating how Android/Dalvik don't actually violate them,"

"It feels very much like a bunch of Sun engineers got together in a room with a bunch of lawyers and started digging for patents that Google might have violated without actually knowing much about Android or Dalvik to begin with."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/17/golsing_on_sun_goofy_patent_contestas/
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Rabid Howler Monkey 11th Jul
@Zogg

One wonders if it is really true. And if it is true, then while Sun's Java devs were flooding the USPTO with bogus patent applications, Congress and the White House were busy raiding the USPTO's cookie jar (they're self funded) to find more money to stuff down their assorted rat holes. Are Sun's Solaris patents bogus too I wonder?

In addition, one must really wonder whether Sun's Java devs had competitions to see who could code the goofiest bugs into their Java code. 'Cause Java is right up there with Adobe Flash Player and Reader software as the most exploited software on the Windows desktop today.

Nice work guys and gals (including Congressmen and Congresswomen).
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Better buy your Android phones and tablets now before "Open Source" becomes "Open Sauce".
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
timspublic1@... 8th Jul
Oracle sucks.
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Florian
bezoeker 8th Jul
Any predictions of Mr. Florian Mueller have been proven correct lately? I seems even the counting of wins and looses was not accurate.
He should start to consider a number of other factors and possibility's.
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Stannky Updated - 8th Jul
It won't kill android but it will be more expensive for consumers to purchase. Carriers will still subsidize the handsets, but costs will still transfer to us.... maybe higher activation fees, higher data plans, they will get their money some way of another.... Its said that open Source software is being rapped like this. Yes the people that created this technology should get something for their troubles, but not billions! Especially when they created the software under the law as "Free". They need to change the laws that state that if anyone acquire open source technology can't sue for infringement
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Nobody knows what Microsoft asserted in their ip claims
Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate 8th Jul
against HTC, and a few other small Android vendors (General Dynamics isn't in the smartphone business).

So, as far as I am concerned their claim may have been for FAT on SSD technology incorporated into every device, irrespective of the fact that they run Android.
... two tin cans connected by a piece of string.

Apple isn't even fully in the act yet, but getting Nortel's 4G patents for a rumored $2 billion, don't expect Apple to sit around forever.
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what happens if Android redesigns the coding to use solely open source java as Oracle allows to make it legal. Oracle in that case would only be on the hook for a one time award payment right? I mean they could only collect on a per-device type thing if the devices continued to violate the patents.

Oracle's arguments are much like they were with Microsoft in that they changed java code to run independant of other Oracle java coding, hence making it incompatible. Microsoft, under order of the court, changed it to use Sun's java and all was good. This, I believe, is simply the way Google will do it with Android. Yeah, they will get nailed in a lump sum type award to Oracle, but they saved over 5 billion dollars not buying Nortel probably anticipating this.
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@brad1000 if they could do it they would have done it already, do you think it's easy to re-design a big system? even if it did, they will still have to pay for everything that went out of the door. Big mess for google. At least they should learn some lessons. Maybe that explains why Nokia chose WP7.
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Only the beginning
symbolset 8th Jul
After Oracle, Paul Allen's Intellectual Vultures got next - followed by an endless train of patent trolls.

Thomas Jefferson once said in reference to Barbary pirates: "Millions for defense. Not one dime for Tribute!"

Jefferson was a bright guy. If you pay the danegeld you'll never be rid of the Dane. All of these patents can be defeated in time. All of the victims of this scheme can fight together and win.
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Everyone is upset about what Oracle is doing but it should come as no surprise. For a long time, Sun was rattling its little saber and crying foul. Everyone knew this was going to happen. How does an OS get developed and into mainstream w/ no patents or any major cross licensing. Google had to get exchange licensed and they did it for chrome.
You would have to have you head in the sand to not see that eventually, that Android's software was going to be attacked.
I believe that these hardware vendors are running under the Microsoft umbrella because Google has left them out in the rain.
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Makes you want to become a lawyer. Ferrari anyone?
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Rabid Howler Monkey 10th Jul
Two upside scenarios for Oracle:
1. They receive a very large damage award for Android-based devices already sold and Android-based devices are removed from the market meaning no future revenue from Android sales. This scenario is consistent with Oracle's original filing. Remember that Google is a strong competitor to Oracle in the enterprise space (via the Cloud) and they'd love to do a bit of damage to them.
2. They receive a large damage award (see no. 1) along with a payment for each new Android-based device that is sold (a la Microsoft). One also must wonder if Oracle has designs on a cross-licensing agreement with Google (think Google File System and MapReduce as examples) in lieu of cash payment for future Android devices.

Either way Oracle will have monetized Java which is what they promised shareholders prior to the Sun acquisition.

Having said this, Google is absolutely crazy if they don't already have in-place a migration plan to move away from Android's Dalvik dependency. For both existing and new Android customers as well as the Android app developers.
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RE: Can Oracle collect on Android too?
Lord_of_the_Singhs 11th Jul
Do I have to pay Oracle every time I take a leak? Oh and by the way, their LMS is crap!

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