Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?

By | May 24, 2010, 3:00am PDT

Business technology may be in need of a youth movement as software developers flock to consumer applications. Where will corporations find the next generation of enterprise software talent?

That question has come up a lot in recent days. The age factor in enterprise technology has become a common theme. To wit:

  • On the Enterprise Irregular email list, one member, who was recruiting developers for a startup, concluded that “the enterprise applications game is for the 30 and over crowd and is completely irrelevant to people under this age.” He contrasted the talent environment today relative to 2000 when companies like PeopleSoft, i2 and Ariba were recruiting young bucks. Simply put, all the recruitment in enterprise technology revolves around people already in the corporate IT game. Where’s the next generation?
  • At SAP Sapphire, you couldn’t help but wonder about the same point raised above. There weren’t a lot of 20-somethings pondering SAP, sustainability and in-memory databases.
  • Rimini Street CEO Seth Ravin noted that his recruiting focused on the older IT engineers. That move makes sense since Rimini Street specializes in supporting legacy applications. Ravin noted that he had a few 60-year-old folks running around the company. Ravin said he had little interest in building a farm team because experience provides more return on his engineering dollar.

The big question: Could Ravin build a farm team if he wanted to? The following thoughts are meant to spur an open thread and start a discussion. Are these fears about aging enterprise technology talent warranted?

A few initial thoughts:

  • It’s unclear whether there’s an age issue in enterprise technology. On the surface, an older demographic just makes sense. You simply become more business focused as you age. However, it could be disconcerting if no next generation emerges despite the market possibilities and big corporate challenges ahead.
  • Meanwhile, it’s also possible that the young enterprise technology talent is going to next-gen business technology companies like Google, Salesforce.com and VMware.
  • And what’s the effect of outsourcing? It’s possible that the next-generation enterprise technology talent isn’t in the U.S. Perhaps, the next generation of business technology talent is in India working on low-level services, but setting up to take over higher value projects. Have engineers been commoditized to the point where there’s no interest from the younger set? In other words, an aging business technology workforce may be a side effect of hollowing out the talent pool due to outsourcing.

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

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Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

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Talkback Most Recent of 17 Talkback(s)

  • ZDNet Gravatar
    Palmetto
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    @Palmetto -- absolutely. And it pays *very* well right now.

    There's a huge talent shortage for people willing and able to maintain legacy systems, and the folks who can and will do it are capturing a pretty penny.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    probabilist
    24th May 2010
  • I guess your spam-bots never sleep, scumbag
    @vxzxdfgsd Everyone in the universe hates you and your counterfeit spamming crapola. Please go die, preferably slowly and in horrible pain and torment. Oh, and it would gratify everyone if you could post the video of your demise here. Really. So please get started on dying.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    thetwonkey
    25th May 2010
  • "Cheap" programmers
    My experience is that actual enterprise development work is being outsourced to Indian programmers while their supervisors and project managers remain in the U.S. and coordinate their work via internet conference calls. My former company (I'm retired) thought this was a great model; my opinion is that it's unstable and insecure and leaves a giant hole in your talent pool if for some political or geographic reason Indian programmers would be come unavailable.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    mdosborn@...
    24th May 2010
  • The next generation is not in America
    Kids today see the actions of their ambient environment. It's not genetics. They see no value in a monetarily-devaluing field.

    After all, if CEOs say they deserve big bucks because what they do affects the company (and then gets $21 million for wrecking the company), or bankers who also say that if their wages are capped that they will lose interest and drop talent, what do people expect when they see jobs offshored solely because the sticker costs of the replaced workers, some of which Americans even trained before getting fired, are lower? (anything else is a tangent too large for the scope of the article I am responding to.) Not to mention tax cuts, tax breaks, subsidy, bailouts, and other deemed-entitlements to reward corporations that do. Paid for by American taxpayers, and if enough jobs are lost we won't be able to bail them out anymore. Appalling, but true.

    Working class people are not machines and all value is dependent on laborers.

    Abe Lincoln and Henry Ford knew that...

    Lastly, all of this information I've mentioned is freely found via a web search. "Americans train replacements" being a good set of keywords to start with, and one of the top-hit results involves BoA. How nice...
    ZDNet Gravatar
    HypnoToad72
    24th May 2010
  • H-1B visas
    Big problem with age... But the scope of the problem lies in how companies are run these days. Youth is worshipped - hiring managers are usually around 30. They can't deal with employees older than they are. All this is fed by the symbolic explosion and invasion of H-1B visa people from other countries. They become both managers and regular worker bees. Regular Americans are shoved aside, even in American companies, in America. It's a disgrace.
    H-1B people then send a lot of their money 'back home'. Every dollar sent out is a dollar Not being used to support the local American economy... i.e. waitress, fast food, big box store, etc... jobs.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    FeedScrn
    24th May 2010
  • Kids Are NOT Interested Any More
    There is no next-generation talent, not domestic anyway.

    My own recruiting efforts have demonstrated that the schools aren't turning out programmers and IT professionals any more. When I asked went to the schools and asked why, the response was simply a lack of interest.

    More accurately, yes, there are students graduating in those areas, but they don't speak English as a first language.

    When I talk with the kids, they say their interest is in Computer Animation and Video Game Design. Gee, I wonder how that happened?
    ZDNet Gravatar
    tomogden
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    @tomogden
    A: why would students study computer science if all they hear/see are programming work sent overseas.
    B: comp sci is not an easy discipline. While not nearly as tough as law or medicine, it still requires a lot of intelligence in math and science. There are many, many folks in the u.s. who are just not good in math & science. Its a total disadvantage to have parents who don't have those skills if you want to pursue math & science.
    C: programming was never viewed as a glamorous job and people in the u.s. being as shallow as they are only want jobs that would make others go oooh, aaah or jobs that are simple.

    But one major side effect to outsourced programmers is that they don't have decent communication skills. Managers, unless they are technical never seem to understand how important that is when generating requirements and meeting your client's expectation. I have worked with lots and lots of out sourced developers in the past and they irritate the heck out of me. They can spend 15 hours non stop writing brilliant code but they code the complete wrong thing. Not once but over and over.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    rengek
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    @rengek - I agree, particularly over points A, B, and C. happy

    Though I wish everybody would use the more accurate term, "offshoring".
    ZDNet Gravatar
    HypnoToad72
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    @rengek We have had the same problem here. Our managers are working managers (a good thing!) that challenge the out sourced and overseas workers and solutoin. They don't like it much, but their code is crap and does not meet specs. Software now days is heading towards config and understanding design and business principles while understanding technology and applying both while working with the users and understanding what they want even when they don't. Out sourcing that is becoming increasingly problematic and has many failures. But hey the project was done on time and under budget, never mind that the users didn't get exactly what they wanted - it was under budget. I will give you an example. SAP has wonderful system where you can apply patches to code to fix things. Their software has been increasingly problematic and you can see when that happened around the time they starting moving more development overseas and out of Germany...guess what same thing is happening in the US. I just hope the pendulum swings the other way.

    We needed technology capable people for a project, we went through 20 BW engineers, before we "settled" on 5...they were horrible. 'White Paper" experts on the "New Dehli" network. that is what we call the out sourced individuals, ask them a question and they cannot answer (remember "experts") they research the work on internet find the white paper example and then call the "New Dehli" network to get a solution. That is what companies are paying out sourced $180/hr to $350/hr for.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    ItsTheBottomLine
    25th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    I've been an IT executive hiring Millennials - our young workforce - since 2002. I spent years observing them closely and can tell you they are not interested in learning legacy systems. To be fair to them, they've never had any exposure to the older systems and don't have a good reference point. They've grown up with technology that is more intuitive and easy to work with. Most of the legacy systems don't fall into those categories.

    I think that for now, American companies can look to outsourcing to solve their problem but for how long? The existing developers that work in India and other countries have learned these legacy systems but what about the younger developers that will be coming up the ranks? They too will have no interest in dedicating their expertise to legacy systems.

    Companies heavily invested in legacy systems will have 2 choices going forward: one is to prepare to pay a hefty premium for Baby Boomer developers or developers in other countries who are currently experts in legacy sytems. These developers may have a ready made consulting gig to fall back on during retirement (Not too shabby!).

    The second choice is for companies to begin to look at the long term viability of these legacy systems and develop a road map for either moving away from these systems or developing more robust interfaces and tools for maintaining them into the 21st Century with a younger workforce.

    In my experience, most IT executives have been concerned with what to do about maintaining legacy systems for years now but keep putting it on the back burner to be dealt with in the future. They have too many other fires to deal with and problems that demand their immediate attention. The problem is that if we don't address it now, we will be forced to deal with it on a reactive basis in the future. As we all know, dealing with reactive situations cost companies a bundle of money to resolve and dilutes IT's credibility in the process. Don't want that to happen...
    ZDNet Gravatar
    ablain
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    Just take a look at many of the enterprise IT workers today, and more importantly, how they got there. Most of the enterprise IT workers I have come across didn't start out this way. Many of them were accountants, clerical workers, data analysts, support techs, etc. Most people don't get out of college saying "I want to work on SAP!". Heck, most college grads I meet don't even really know what SAP or PeopleSoft are about. Many enterprise IT workers have come from other parts of the business looking for a new challenge, better pay, or because they have been using a particular enterprise application for so long, that their interest in the 'behind-the-scenes' work has been peaked. With this in mind, I don't think companies using enterprise applications should be too worried. As for a lack of IT experience with these workers, I don't think this is much of an issue either; many enterprise applications are highly configured for the company and require a lot of training even if you've worked with the particular application in the past. Having little IT experience, some business experience and a proven passion for learning would almost be preferred since you would have a blank slate with which to train your enterprise IT workers the way you want without preconceptions getting in the way, while at the same time having enough general business experience to really help them along (let?s face it, figuring out an SAP BOM or PeopleSoft SQR isn?t really leveraging in-depth technical knowledge, you could gain solid footing on these with a weekend session at a Marriot). As long as the actual application adds value to their company, they will always find people willing to do the work.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    krsanford
    24th May 2010
  • RE: Enterprise software development: Do we have an age problem?
    The answer, of course, is that we have to grow our own. IBM has a program running with more than 400 colleges and universities to produce new undergrads and masters' candidates with mainframe skills and an enterprise point of view. Their customers -- who were having trouble finding new faces to hire asked them to help solve the problem. They are having no trouble recruiting entrants to the programs -- not when their business partners are standing at the other end with a big butterfly net and job offers for everyone who successfully passes through the program.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    amywohl
    24th May 2010
  • Age Discrimination...
    Age discrimination is alive and quite well in IT! I understand your concern that fresh ideas are needed in software development, but to support the concept that older IT people don't bring those ideas to the marketplace is wrong wrong wrong. Steve Jobs is only seven years younger than I am, and look how innovative he has been.

    I work as a security guard at $12/hour because no one will hire me. I shave my head so that my grey hair won't be visible. I have a RECENT Bachelor's degree, several Microsoft certifications, and am six months from an MBA in IT management. Once I get the advanced degree maybe I can make minimum wage! Talk about energy, I work fulltime and am also a fulltime graduate student.

    Promulgating age discrimination today will byte (sic) you in the butt later in life. Meanwhile a lot of older professionals in many areas of expertise suffer because HR people don't want to hire their parents.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    JG2000
    24th May 2010
  • Maybe more of a Resume Fraud Problem
    Working with SAP since 1994 I've seen so much resume fraud that it is long past time that companies started pushing back on some of the fakes. I can't tell you how many resumes I have received from early-mid 20 somethings that show 8-10 years of SAP experience. So, let's see, they started their SAP consulting career in Fortune 1000 companies at 12 - 16 years old?

    Mostly I see this from H1B's, they seem to have no qualms with not just exaggerated experience but completely and totally fabricted experience. Whole resumes that are complete and total frauds.

    I think companies are starting to get smarter in the tech space and demanding more senior level resources because they are tired of being ripped off.

    This article catalogs some of my experiences:

    Screening and Interview Methods to Find the Right SAP Consultant
    http://www.r3now.com/screening-and-interview-methods-to-find-the-right-sap-consultant

    And then this one that talks about the required business analyst and consultant skills:
    Screening and Interview Methods to Find the Right Consultant ? Part 2
    http://www.r3now.com/screening-and-interview-methods-to-find-the-right-consultant-part-2

    For me, when I do project management on some SAP projects, or when I try to staff for some of my existing clients I am fed up with wasting my time with all of the fake resumes.
    ZDNet Gravatar
    wjwood64
    24th May 2010

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