ie8 fix

Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Facebook's TOS debacle: Be upset for a better reason

By | February 17, 2009, 2:30am PST

Summary: There was some Facebook backlash over the long U.S. weekend that has prompted some calls for boycotts over two sentences that were taken out of the company’s Terms of Services agreement earlier this month. Those sentences once allowed users to delete all of their uploaded content - pics, videos, notes and so on - and [...]

There was some Facebook backlash over the long U.S. weekend that has prompted some calls for boycotts over two sentences that were taken out of the company’s Terms of Services agreement earlier this month. Those sentences once allowed users to delete all of their uploaded content - pics, videos, notes and so on - and walk away from the service with only “archived copies” left behind for Facebook. And one day, that legal language disappeared from the TOS.

That means Facebook can continue to do all the things you allow it to do with your content as a user - stream, publish, copy, store, distribute and, yeah, even sublicense it for promotional purposes - even after you quit. And when the consumer watchdog site, The Consumerist, highlighted the missing language on its blog Sunday evening, the news started to spread.

Users are outraged, so much so that they have started to - yup, you guessed it - form protest groups on Facebook, including one called People Against the new Terms of Service (TOS), which was pushing 16,000 members early Tuesday. But they’re actually getting mad for the wrong reason.

Sure, get upset about how they can use your content if you’d like but that’s not new. We’re just finding out about it - and that’s what’s even more disturbing. But more on that in a minute.

Facebook rightly disrupted the long U.S. holiday weekend and jumped into action to launch some damage control, posting a Monday afternoon blog post from CEO Mark Zuckerberg:

Our philosophy is that people own their information and control who they share it with. When a person shares information on Facebook, they first need to grant Facebook a license to use that information so that we can show it to the other people they’ve asked us to share it with. Without this license, we couldn’t help people share that information. One of the questions about our new terms of use is whether Facebook can use this information forever. When a person shares something like a message with a friend, two copies of that information are created—one in the person’s sent messages box and the other in their friend’s inbox. Even if the person deactivates their account, their friend still has a copy of that message. We think this is the right way for Facebook to work, and it is consistent with how other services like email work. One of the reasons we updated our terms was to make this more clear.

If I’m understanding what Mark is saying, just because one of my friends decides to delete his account doesn’t mean that I suddenly can no longer see the picture that he uploaded and tagged of me and him. So, in that sense, if the user who uploaded it goes away, the picture stays - and my friends are still free to see it.

Of course that makes sense - just like the analogy of sent and received e-mail makes sense. And, sure, it’s probably reasonable for Facebook to clarify this language in an updated TOS. Really, I don’t know that this is worth some sort of widespread boycott effort. But, with that said, let’s jump back to that better reason to be upset and look at two other sentences in the TOS:

We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to change or delete portions of these Terms at any time without further notice. Your continued use of the Facebook Service after any such changes constitutes your acceptance of the new Terms.

Whoa! You get to change the rules and you don’t have to tell me about it? And just because I log-in again tomorrow - just like I do at some point pretty much every day - means that i agree to the new rules you’ve put in place? How is that fair? After all, this is a social networking site that has built a huge following based on tools for communicating with other people - and you can’t “communicate” to me that you changed the rules? From Mark’s blog post:

We’re at an interesting point in the development of the open online world where these issues are being worked out. It’s difficult terrain to navigate and we’re going to make some missteps…

Clearly.

In all fairness, the company posted an entry on its corporate blog about the new term when it made the changes, stating that it had “simplified and clarified a lot of information that applies to you, including some things you shouldn’t do when using the site” and then went on to talk about protecting you and your privacy.

Who knows if anyone at Facebook would have foreseen this type of backlash? Still, maybe that post needed some more meat to it - maybe bullet points of all the changes and what they really meant. After all, a link to the new TOS is useless without a copy of the old one for comparison and, absent of those, a line in a blog post that mentions changes to “a lot of information that applies to you” without any explanation does little good.

One last thing: couldn’t the company have also covered its bases by blasting an e-mail to every user? After all, Facebook does have an address for each of its members. And it is the one single thread - the license - that keeps Facebook connected its users. So, in that sense, it’s kind of important.

Whenever my bank makes any changes to a privacy policy or interest rate, they send a copy of the new agreement in the mail. Whether I read it or not is a different story - but at least they’ve reached out to me to notify me of the changes. In this case, from best I can tell, that’s where Facebook dropped the ball.

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Sam has been a technology and business blogger for more than 18 years.

Disclosure

Sam Diaz

Sam Diaz has nothing to disclose.

Biography

Sam Diaz

Sam has been a technology and business blogger, reporter and editor at ZDNet, the Washington Post, San Jose Mercury News and Fresno Bee for more than 18 years. He's a member of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and a graduate of California State University, Fresno.

30
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Facebook
jkaqkgojgw 16th Oct
@jpr75_z You might be building me cackle x???anax , you a short time ago bottle't answer buy pril???igy seriously. You would adi???pex on aim, right?
Don't you believe close by are citizen a
0 Votes
+ -
Why I started the group on Facebook
yojibee 17th Feb 2009
I just wanted to clarify why I started the Facebook group "People Against the new Terms of Service (TOS)" yesterday.

Personally it wasn't so much about getting Facebook to change their TOS. If you read the old TOS you would have known that it always sucked and probably always will. Ideally they would add the two lines they removed again, and edit the wording in some places.

For me it was much more a matter of Facebook AGAIN not communicating properly with their members.
Is it too much to ask for a notification or an email stating that they have changed their TOS?
Maybe also explain in details why they did it and what benefits the changes would have to their members? Does Facebook actually think every member read their blog? I still have friends (on Facebook) who haven't heard of RSS feeds or still don't read any blogs.

So much of what has happened the last two days could have been avoided if they had told us directly what they were up to. Facebook has a track record of not informing their uses of changes to the service. Makes me wonder if they learned anything at all from the Beacon episode a while back.

What I am hoping to achieve is to for Facebook to realize that talking to your members actually is a good thing and maybe even that the members start to become more aware of what, how and with whom they chose to share their content on the web.

0 Votes
+ -
Changes to TOS
docqualizer 17th Feb 2009
Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a company had to notify you of changes to their TOS before implementing it AND allow you to opt out if you did not agree to the changes?

I could very well be wrong, but other sites I subscribe to have sent out TOS change notifications in the past.
0 Votes
+ -
Absolutely...except when....
badgertale@... 17th Feb 2009
...you give up that right by agreeing to the new TOS which clearly states that by using their product that you agree.

Perfectly legal. But who reads these things every time they log on? Obviously, you or I don't...

Weird, huh?
0 Votes
+ -
The people
AzuMao 19th Feb 2009
Making all this fuss over nothing do, that's for sure.
0 Votes
+ -
We reserve the right to modify
cyberguild 18th Feb 2009
It is clear that all you have to do is log onto the service to accept any changes to the Terms of Use. So, they can abrogate prior protections at any time. If you are a serious user who depends on the service, it will be exceptionally difficult to switch services. Any private or proprietary information shared within a closed group can legally be appropriated and used as-is or modified for commercial use by Facebook or their affiliates as they see fit.

The text below is right at the top of their Terms of Use. You are responsible to look at the date on the Terms, then parse it for changes from previous versions without the benefit of a change log:

"We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to change, modify, add, or delete portions of these Terms of Use at any time without further notice. If we do this, we will post the changes to these Terms of Use on this page and will indicate at the top of this page the date these terms were last revised. Your continued use of the Service or the Site after any such changes constitutes your acceptance of the new Terms of Use."
0 Votes
+ -
Live and Learn
jpr75_z 17th Feb 2009
The Internet is forever, and what you put on the Internet could be forever. (I still run across old technical news group posting I made years ago.) The sooner people accept this the better. And especially young people who are putting some very personal information on the Internet that could haunt them in the years to come. Think twice about using social networking sites, and always ask if what you put on there now you will want to see in 10 years.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Facebook
jkaqkgojgw 16th Oct
@jpr75_z You might be building me cackle x???anax , you a short time ago bottle't answer buy pril???igy seriously. You would adi???pex on aim, right?
Don't you believe close by are citizen a
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Facebook
mr1972 17th Feb 2009
Almost every software, hardware, cloud or internet company or product has that "We can change the TOS at will with no notification" in it. That is why it is so insane to actually store data on the internet. Once you give it to a cloud vendor, they effectively own it. Or can own it just by changing the TOS.

I haven't heard a lot of outcries on that particular line item in the EULA, TOS, etc. Most people don't know how powerful it really is.

Most of the vendors that have even bothered to talk to me about it either try to down play it or say things like "It is never enforced so why worry about it" or "Everyone else is doing it so why can't we do it?"

Data Ownership on the Internet or if you want to call it a cloud should be a fundamental discussion in our society if we are going to continue to use the Internet for anything other than watch television and play games.
0 Votes
+ -
And I'll say it again...
IT_Guy_z 17th Feb 2009
...if anyone is stupid enough to put personal information on a web site, ANY web site, for all the planet to see...or this punk Zuckerberg to have access to...then you will just have to deal with any possible consequences.

Would you post your personal info on a roadside billboard, the side of your car, or in a television commercial? Probably not...so why on earth would anyone put the same info on ANY of these stupid social-networking sites?

Anyone remember what "caveat emptor" means?

I'm a "sixty-something" that knows what privacy is all about, and I have no interest whatsoever in any "social networking" sites.

Need friends that badly? Then get a dog!


0 Votes
+ -
Who do you think is interested in your personal information, anyway, unless it is your friends (if you have any.) So paying to post it on a bill-board is not likely to be effective. However, personal "commercials" if you want to call it that, are mediated by Facebook quite well, thank you. And perhaps thay are effective, too.

Yeah, we're all stupid, I get it.

A fifty-something myself ...
0 Votes
+ -
This might be a reason he is right.
Mark-Twain 17th Feb 2009
http://socialstalking.com/

"Raised by Wolves? Get A Wolf Instead?" What has this to do with what he was saying?
0 Votes
+ -
If they can make milions on me I all for it
Randalllind Updated - 17th Feb 2009
I be their huckleberry happy I just ask that Zunga fixes Mafia Wars!!
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Facebook
doug@... 17th Feb 2009
Facebook should clarify that it's continued use is only ON Facebook as MySpace does. The way the TOS is written allows Facebook to use our content however they choose. The limited example you highlight of one user having another user's photos is not what the TOS say they can do. Per the TOS, Facebook could put our photos on a "Best of Facebook" (or "Worst of") CD and then sell it. THey could use our photos in ads they might place in newspapers, etc. Hardly the limited distribution of one user to another. If that is ALL they meant, then they should say that in the TOS.
0 Votes
+ -
Good point.
PMC-CON 17th Feb 2009
NT
0 Votes
+ -
I totaly agree...
badgertale@... 17th Feb 2009
That's what I don't understand about all of this. Why didn't they just put all of what the founder said today in his blog into the TOS?

If it is soooo simple for him to explain on a blog they it is simple to put it in the TOS...

Something stinks in Denmark!
0 Votes
+ -
Lawyers believe in a world where they can eliminate all risks. The way ethical lawyers work is they create as broad of an agreement in their favor as possible in order to protect against all known and unknown situations. Less ethical lawyers want to be able to profit from another person's work.

It's the job of the Product Manager / business owner to reign in the language of the lawyer so the proper balance of running a business and managing risk is struck. Either 1) the product manager didn't do his/her job very well, or 2) there is something nefarious going on in the back (or front) of someone's mind. I'll give Facebook the benefit of a doubt (like I did with Senator Roland Burris) - and say the PM dropped the ball on this.

I would like Facebook to explicitly address what they will and won't do with "Group" information and inadvertently released information that was intended to be private.

This TOS, as written, allows Facebook to take any content from any user or group and do anything they want with it. There is a nebulous clause that says "subject only to *your* privacy settings". So, this may protect some private "User" information, but I have found no explicit ties between that clause and what Facebook can use from "Groups" (Open, Closed, and Secret). While information within a Group may be governed by the intent of the user who set it up, a TOS agreement should not rely on assumptions of coverage and applicability.

Here are 2 scenarios:

A very plausible scenario is - a "Closed" international group of P.hD students are collaborating on a science project that may have commercial value to their university (e.g. nano technology). One of the administrators of the group inadvertently changed the Group access level to "Open". Within a few hours, the administrator realizes his mistake and fixes it. Now that the group's information was technically made public, Facebook may have full rights to use their unpublished research to create products, derivative works, or sell the idea to a Fortune 500 company that could exploit the ideas commercially.

There is a "Secret" group of recovering alcoholics discussing their failures and struggles and perhaps some of the members are a bit famous (e.g Michael Phelps or a politician). The conversations could be made into a for-profit tell-all expose paperback.
0 Votes
+ -
Relax?
digitalshamen 17th Feb 2009
wiretapping, misappropriation of copyrighted materials, attacks on
patents, why "relax"?

it is time to work on giving people proper attribution. while we're at it,
why not discuss things like unauthorized rootkits & p2p apps that suck
electricity from "your" machine.

i've done enough relaxing & trusting people "to do no harm" & it just
doesn't work that way ... to quote Ronald Reagan - "Trust but Verify" -
THAT sounds like the proper approach.
0 Votes
+ -
Relax?
digitalshamen 17th Feb 2009
wiretapping, misappropriation of copyrighted materials, attacks on
patents, why "relax"?

it is time to work on giving people proper attribution. while we're at it,
why not discuss things like unauthorized rootkits & p2p apps that
suck electricity from "your" machine.

i've done enough relaxing & trusting people "to do no harm" & it just
doesn't work that way ... to quote Ronald Reagan - "Trust but Verify" -
THAT sounds like the proper approach.

d i g i t a l s h a m a n
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Facebook
richard.gardner@... 17th Feb 2009
It's not about making friends you div, it's about keeping in touch with the one's you've already got.

As to TOS, well if I was paying for it I'd worry about it.
0 Votes
+ -
Free = Okay as long as not paying for it!!??
badgertale@... 17th Feb 2009
So anything free on the Internet should set our minds at ease?

It must be magic living in your world...lol
0 Votes
+ -
Why the hell complain about it? Go make your own free service if you think you can do better.

Looks like you're the one living in a magic world.
0 Votes
+ -
Facebook can shove it...
mikifinaz1@... 17th Feb 2009
I didn't get involved; because like most things the devil is in the detail and now we have seen the devil's face.

I am sorry for all those twenty somethings, half dressed, drunk in lewd poses with their punk smeared faced grinning mindlessly into a cell phone snapshot. That is going to hurt when their prospective dream job gets flushed because of this stupid site.
0 Votes
+ -
Ummm....
ejhonda 17th Feb 2009
What job? Have you been paying attention to the economy recently?
0 Votes
+ -
You retard
AzuMao 19th Feb 2009
Facebook didn't hold a gun to their head and tell them to get drunk and post nudes. They did that idiocy of their own free will. And they deserve whatever consequences they get for their actions. Would you blame Toyota if you chose to drive off a cliff on purpose and got your arm broken in the process?
Just another reason why not to post personal information....
0 Votes
+ -
At some point, a rational CEO would ask themselves, "Do I want to risk my brand by seeking to secretly seize the intellectual property of tens of millions of people? But CEO Mark Zuckerberg doesn't seem to be thinking rationally; on the contrary -- he's still defending what many consider the most unethical policies in social networking. I think it is time to do more than just "protest"...it is time for Facebook applications that help us migrte our friends and our own pages to other social networks.

There are people in England who still think the world is flat. CEO Mark Zuckerberg is now one of the most dangerous persons on earth. Remember when AOL employees had the master key to every member's email? Businesses were compromised, content was intercepted and altered, viruses were inserted, email lists were sold to spammers. We don't know how many people were blackmailed, staulked or even murdered by AOL "volunteers.."

We don't know what CEO Mark Zuckerberg will decide to do with your IP in the future...but considering how AOL changed from an online service to a criminal's paradise, do we really care? It is time to start restricting what we post on Facebook.
This Super Blu ray Ripper can help you easily transfer
Blu-ray files to portable devices, like iPod, Apple TV, PS3, Xbox, Mobile phone, other MP4 Players such
as Zune, Sony Walkman, iRiver, Creative Zen, etc.
Thank you so much for this post, it was very insightful!
How To Rip Blu-ray To Mp4 with blu-ray to mp4 converter?
With this Blu-Ray To MP4 software, you can share your favourite Blu-Ray movies on more portable devices, as Apple TV, iPod, iPhone, GPhone, PSP\PS3, XBox, Mobile Phone, Windows Mobile.
More info you can visit: http://www.bluraytomp4.net

More Related Products : blu ray to mp4 converter || mp4 to blu ray || rip blu ray || blu ray burner
Thank you so much for this post, it was very insightful!
How To Rip Blu-ray To Mp4 with blu-ray to mp4 converter?
With this Blu-Ray To MP4 software, you can share your favourite Blu-Ray movies on more portable devices, as Apple TV, iPod, iPhone, GPhone, PSP\PS3, XBox, Mobile Phone, Windows Mobile.
More info you can visit: http://www.bluraytomp4.net

More Related Products : blu ray to mp4 converter || mp4 to blu ray || rip blu ray

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix