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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Google: Hundreds of Gmail accounts in U.S., Asia hacked

By | June 1, 2011, 1:52pm PDT

Hackers around the world are gaining more attention than usual in the last few months. Now Google has added another announcement to the pile that hundreds of Gmail accounts have been hacked recently.

Now, Google affirms that the problem doesn’t rest with Gmail security but rather this scheme was a result of phishing and malware.

Google spilled the details on Wednesday via its official blog:

Through the strength of our cloud-based security and abuse detection systems*, we recently uncovered a campaign to collect user passwords, likely through phishing. This campaign, which appears to originate from Jinan, China, affected what seem to be the personal Gmail accounts of hundreds of users including, among others, senior U.S. government officials, Chinese political activists, officials in several Asian countries (predominantly South Korea), military personnel and journalists.

The goal of this effort seems to have been to monitor the contents of these users’ emails, with the perpetrators apparently using stolen passwords to change peoples’ forwarding and delegation settings.

Gmail users affected by this security mishap should have already been notified. Google’s security team outlined a number of steps that Gmail users can take to protect themselves, which should only take about “ten minutes.”

Google recommended the following:

  • Use two-factor authentication;
  • Choose a strong password;
  • Watch for suspicious activity warnings in your Gmail account;
  • Check your settings for odd forwarding.

Google gave a hat tip to the blog Contagio, which highlighted the risks in February.

This attack attempt might seem like a small incident (which it certainly is in comparison to the problems with Sony’s PlayStation Network or even Apple and the MacDefender issue), but it’s a reminder that it’s always a good idea to take even just a few moments to ensure your online identity is safe.

Related coverage on ZDNet:

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Rachel King is a staff writer for ZDNet based in San Francisco.

Disclosure

Rachel King

Rachel King has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted in this blog.

Biography

Rachel King

Rachel King is a staff writer for CBS Interactive in San Francisco. Before serving as a contributing editor at ZDNet in New York City for two years, she previously worked for The Business Insider, FastCompany.com, CNN's San Francisco bureau and the U.S. Department of State. Rachel has also written for MainStreet.com, Irish America Magazine and the New York Daily News, among others. Rachel has a B.A. in Mass Communications and History from the University of California, Berkeley and a M.S. in Journalism from Columbia University, where she served as art director for the student magazine, Plated.

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RE: Google: Hundreds of Gmail accounts in U.S., Asia hacked
rayyi 24th Nov
In terms of a homeowner using a pellet mill to make their own fuel, unless they have some way to generate additional income from the mill, it is not worth their time.
http://www.pelletmillguide.com/critical_factors_on_investing_wood_pellet_mills.html pellet production
Checked mine, seems OK.
I rarely use it anyway.
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Phew!
Mr. Copro Encephalic to You 1st Jun
@MoeFugger thank goodness. Any other owners of the other several hundred million account not affected want to chime in? Especially those who rarely use it anyway?
because u r not important
WONDERFUL Post.thanks for share..extra wait .. ??? millenium scholarship
If we only think like crimmals for our own proction.Using numbers and lettersin password seams to slow down the HACKES
@oklook@...

Yes, we should all have stronger passwords that contain numbers and special characters, but did you read the article? The passwords were being collected, likely through phishing. It doesn't matter how secure your password is if you hand it over to the bad guy.
@JohnJacob1161
If hackers use random brute force character detection of passwords, then a user choosing (or not) to utilize any characters has nothing to do with how easily they are hacked, as every character combination needs to be repetetively tried anyway - or did I miss something here?
Google has given the public nothing but security problem riddled software since they did anything beyond search.
From the release of Google desktop...banned by most govenment agencies and healthcare organizations etc. originally and hopefully all Google software will be jettisoned now.
People like DB tell us the wonders of Google and how much better internet based computing is, but if I have to check my email account's settings every time I use it, forget it. Might as well go back to the U.S. postal service for less hassle.
Just say NO to Google. Their "Do no Evil" slogan has become the joke of the industry.
Hotmail via Windows LIVE 2010 or 2011 offers a full blown email client that is not just a web page with links jumbled all over the place, but rather a good emulation of Outlook 2010 for free with the best productivity tools and features available. Skydrive, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, OneNote and many more tools, all with the 2010 interface for free is the absolute best online productivity suite you will find.
Microsoft has the absolute best anti phising features and site scanning available today in their products. IE provides scanning that detects 60% more rigged sites than Chrome, Safari and FF combined.
@JohnJacob1161 This pertains to xuniL_z's reply: Last time I looked Hotmail was M$ & I don't use M$ for anything that another program will do. Why? Well, it is because of people like xuniL_z who are living proof that intelligence is not universal.

M$ is at the root of malware IMHO!
  • Flagged
The lack of tolerence of others opinions is indeed universal.

Your attack shows you are not willing to stand for other opinions that don't match yours. There is a word for people like you but I'll restrain myself because I'm not like you and would never want to be.

Your attack culminated with the accusation that Microsoft is somehow behind all malware. Watch out of the black helicopters and keep your tin foil hat handy.

Good day sir.
how do i implement two-factor? will gmail support my RSA token i already have??
@kevin_groff@...
Google Lockheed and RSA hack before you start asking about EMC RSA Token use.......
@kevin_groff@... No, not your RSA token, but an app on your cell phone, a call to your land line phone, and/or printed one time passwords.
Sweet! I always wanted to have my phone ring every time I checked my e-mail.
My Yahoo account was hacked and used to send spam from some losers mobile app in china. I haven't used the account in a long time, so I know it's nothing I did to compromise it.. which means Yahoo was hacked. Of course that's not even news, they are such a failure these days.
@wraith404

You might be right about Yahoo being hacked. My dad's Yahoo email account was hacked just two days ago and was used to spam everyone on his very large contact list - which includes much of our extended family and all of his clients and business contacts. He had to make a lot of phone calls yesterday. I traced the culprit to an IP address in Thailand, but it's quite possible he might actually be in China.
@wraith404 are you sure it was hacked? Did you use that email address and password on any other sites? If so, that may be where the leak occurred.
@JohnJacob1161

I am as certain as I can reasonably be. This is a secondary account that I rarely log into, and never use in conjunction with any other sites or services. I have no linked accounts, and do not participate in any other yahoo services (such as messenger etc).
@wraith404
I've not seen anything from Yahoo, but I did a forensic analysis for a friends "hacked" yahoo account and found that it wasn't necessarily his account that got hacked, but that someone had had inserted a pseudo smtp server into the yahoo e-mail handling/relay service.
What this says in non-geek speek is that they had tricked the yahoo servers into accepting relay/spam request from what would appear to the other servers as being a legitimate source. So long story short, it is possible that even though the emails appeared to come from my friends account it wasn't necessary for the account to actually be compromized, but for the username only to be known.
I suggested my friend notify yahoo as I have no affiliation with them.
@GDoC
Good analysis. Darn it.
That's smart.
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Sorry, but...
flared0ne Updated - 1st Jun
@GDoC If the contact list was spammed, then YES, that account was hacked, the activity is NOT the result of an "inserted" smtp server... Granted, it would appear that BOTH possibilities are likely, across multiple cases being reported.
@GDoC
Very likely. These days if spam/phish emails seems to come from someone, it probably wasn't them at all, just someone spoofing their source address. Unless people adopt electronic signatures on email, this will continue to be a problem.
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@wraith404 something people often forget is many email accounts ask for a second email address for a contact if there are problems with the first. When someone hacks such an account they ofte change that address to one they can use to get access again by sending a forgotten password request to/from it. Users frequently forget about this second address.

I also have a friend who has been having his Tahoo account tied to all kinds of SPAM. In his case he's one of those people who elevates the "forward this to everyone you know" on every piece of Internet Tripe he gets to religious fervor. Between him and the phonebook's worth of names to the "To" and "CC" sections it's a bountiful harvest for those forging email "from" headers. I tried to warn him but only after his mother and sister started getting invites from him to visit adult sites that were "the best I ever saw" did he finally get what I had been warning him about.

So, it's likely your address was forged as a header rather than your account being hacked and used as the real source of these mailings. I believe excessive stuff sent from the legit free email services trips a flag something is amiss. Of course, stuff still gets out before it attracts attention and the account is shut down. But, address forging is very common abd is almost always thought of as somebody hacked into an account and is using it.
@jhand47201

But, they spammed MY contacts. I was alerted to the breach by family members who were spammed. In addition, my login history for the account showed logins at the time of the malicious spam being sent - from China. That's suspicious, since I've never been to that good for nothing country.
Does Google even offer two-factor authentication?
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@tim.wilson@...

Yes, they offer two-factor authentication and it's well implemented. You can turn it on in the Account Settings.
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Two-factor?
flared0ne 1st Jun
@JohnJacob1161 Good info, thanks.
@tim.wilson@... As a matter of fact, they do.

http://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/

They have authenticator apps for BlackBerry, Android, as well as iOS devices, although it seems their site I linked above hasn't been updated to link to the iOS apps. You can find them in the Apple App Store by searching for Google.
This is dangerous as China can easily redirect funds from U.S Adsense accounts to there bank accounts. I don't know if what I'm saying is true.
They have very personal informations on their hands right now.
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I have a new account and have received 6 emails from the Democrat party = from Obama, Patrick Gaspard, Donna Brazille and others. I consider these trash and have moved them accordingly. I think this should be illegal and that Google should be fined.
@JudyNM why fine Google? What did they do? And your email account doesn't need to be hacked to send you an email. I think you're confused...
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@JohnJacob1161
I too get a lot of unwanted emails .. please help me
@JudyNM

Are you actually rational? I think someone who knows how "sensitive" you are signed you up for the emails. Just unsubscribe, instead of expecting some legal remedy.
@JudyNM

Politicking is one thing that is legal allowed I just chunk it the waste basket/Trash can and get rid of it.
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Reply to JudyNM.
Joe.Smetona Updated - 1st Jun
I have a Gmail folder called "RW Emails", which is a collection of 88 "conservative" emails I received on a variety of RW topics since before the election. I had a lot more, but unfortunately, I deleted them. They are totally devoid of any common sense and I keep them strictly for entertainment purposes. I have hundreds of filters and labels for my 57,000 mostly technical emails. So, my inbox gets about 20-30 emails a week.

Gmail is like a time machine. Looking back on those subjects and the people who honestly believed what they were sending is priceless.

I used to verify the claims using online fact checkers. They were always false and I would reply to the sender with a short explanation and a link to the fact site. That proved futile, because, months later, the sender would send me the exact same email, so I stopped.
by being politically affiliated themselves, like Politifact and Snopes and others.

It would be very interesting to find out how you yourself determine what the real facts are.
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Obama birth certificate?
Joe.Smetona Updated - 2nd Jun
Reply to adornoe.

There are people who religiously believe Rush, Glenn and others. I guess they also believe ZDNet articles? happy

Newsmax, Fox News and it's commentators are considered by the Academic community strictly as a right wing propaganda outlet. They are never used for references or information.

The same goes for the Tea Party:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pargon/sets/72157623594187379/

In recent news, Gov. Chris Christy, who totally obliterated education in NJ and single handedly lost over $400,000 in Federal Aid by mis-filing papers, wound up using a "really big state" helicopter to take his family on a 80 mile trip to see his son's baseball game. There's right wing efficiency (hypocrisy) in action.

http://gawker.com/5622065/new-jersey-loses-400-million-in-education-funding-over-silly-application-error

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/06/chris_christie_takes_back_the.html

He decimated higher education to the point increasing college tuition from 18,000 to 30,000 in one year. The MV inspection agency is cut so much it took 2 1/2 hours to get my car inspected and all they check is emissions. The inspection workers were shuttling between 3 lines. What a fiasco, it will take years to recover. And to top it off, he won't eliminate any tax breaks for the rich. Republican, through and through.

So many people that voted for him, want him out of office so bad, they can taste it.

This information is relevant here only because ZDNet has gone over to the dark side in the last couple of months. Their propaganda has been out of control and many, many posters have expressed disgust with the authors, with Ed Bott, in particular.

I've been registered with ZDNet since 1/30/06 and really have never seen any credibility in Ed's articles anyway, but the ZDboat is sinking and the first thing they threw overboard was neutral journalism. This article is a disgrace and like so many others, involves maladies common to any OS, but they focus it on Gmail or any convenient Microsoft competitor.

If you can't see the propaganda here, there's not much anyone can do to help you.

I've used Gmail since 2/18/05 and have 57,417 emails. There is no problem with Gmail and I have never had any problems with it.
liberal.

Obama birth certificate?

Yeah... so.. what about the Obama birth certificate?

Have you bothered to find out and understand the facts regarding the Obama birth certificate? He has produced two versions of "his" birth certificate, but, both cases are phonies. He still hasn't produced the real "long form" birth certificate, and the latest BC was just as phony as the first one he produced a couple of years ago, except the latest did contain a bit more information, but, it's still a phony. However, the latest fake did contain a bit of information which would disqualify him from being eligible to be president of the U.S. The part which says that his father was a Kenyan with British citizenship, would disqualify him from being a "natural born citizen", and therefore, not qualified, as per the constitution, to be president of the U.S.

There are people who religiously believe Rush, Glenn and others.

It's not about "religion", but, I'd rather believe them than the people which you seem to be preferring. So, exactly what is it that you dislike about Rush or Glenn or "others" of the same ideological bent? What makes your beliefs any more credible than what Rush or Glenn or other right-wing pundits put forth?

I guess they also believe ZDNet articles?

Actually, you must be brand new to ZDNet, because, for the most part, ZDNet and it's sister publications, are all CBS owned, and all of them have a left-wing bias in the reporting. It they would keep the reporting to just the tech issues, it wouldn't be a bad place to hand out and discuss hardware and software and applications and gadgets. But, when they stray into politicas, it's invariably with a left-wing bias.

Newsmax, Fox News and it's commentators are considered by the Academic community strictly as a right wing propaganda outlet.

Actually, it's you with the problem, if you actually believe that the "academic community" has any more credibility than the "right wing propaganda" outfits that you're referencing. It's the academic community, the "elitists", who have the least amount of credibility with the regular John and Jane Doe out there. The left wing "academics" are the ones who took over the mainstream media and which has lost just about any credibilty it ever had. The "academic community" is part of the problem with America, and they are being exposed as just left-wing ideologues, and when it comes to left-wing ideologues, they need to lie to the public in order to remain relevant. But, they are losing control of the media which they had controlled for over 60 years, and the "conservative" talk radio and non-liberal TV stations and the internet, are now allowing the truth and alternate messages to be heard. It's no longer the world where CBS/ABC/NBC/CNN/NYTimes/WashintonPost rule. The "academic community", as you call them, are no longer able to control the media and their message is being exposed as just a bunch of lies.

They are never used for references or information.

What world are you residing in?

Anything that Beck or Rush or FOX news puts out, is quoted more than anything that the "original" left-wing media puts out. And the audience for "right-wing" talk radio is bigger than that of left-wing talk, and when it comes to FOX, it still has an audience which is larger than the other left-wing cable news channels combined (that includes CNN/MSNBC/HLN/NPR. So, again, what world are you in?

The same goes for the Tea Party:

That "tea party" must be scaring the pants off people like you. "Riddle me this": Which group was most influential in getting the democrats tossed out of control of the House of Representatives? Which group was most influential in getting the republicans to take control of most governorships in the country? Which group is most responsible for actually getting the federal government to try to control spending? (Hint: it wasn't the democrats, and it wasn't the republicans, per se. I'll give you a better hint: it's the 'tea party'). Finally, we're getting more responsible government, thanks to he tea party. wink

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pargon/sets/72157623594187379/

Did you know that, there are a lot of democrats whose sole job is to impersonate republicans (tea party or whatever other flavor) at demonstrations
and to raise signs intended to make republicans/conservatives seem "uneducated"? They've been caught many times doing it.

However, when it comes to dumb, there is nothing more dumb than those who continue to believe in liberalism and socialism. It's the definition of insanity: doing (or believing) the same thing, over and over again, hoping for a different result.
In recent news, Gov. Chris Christy, who totally obliterated education in NJ

Being hyperbolic is equivalent to being a liar. You're just like most liberals, who need to lie to the unsuspecting and the ignorant, in order to try to win the argument.

and single handedly lost over $400,000 in Federal Aid by mis-filing papers,

Christie is basically trying to break the stranglehold that the teacher's unions have had on education in NJ, and I hope he is ultimately successful. It would be the best thing to happen to education in NJ, and the best thing to happen for the kids who depend upon getting a good education. A system which is mostly serving the "wants and greed" of the unions and teachers, is not one that is useful as an education system.

wound up using a "really big state" helicopter to take his family on a 80 mile trip to see his son's baseball game.

According to Christie, he has the authority to use the helicopter, although, I would have preferred that he hadn't used government assets for the trip.

Now, how do you feel about Obama doing the same thing when he used Air Force one to take a trip to NY with his wife, just to take in a Broadway show? That wasn't official business and every time Air Force one is used, it's to the tune of a few million dollars. Now, how about when Obama took a trip to Spain and brought along his wife and 500 other people in Air Force one and Air Force 2, all paid for by the U.S. tax payer? That trip alone was to the tune of at least $20 million dollars. Grant it that, Obama is the president and he needs to use Air Force one for his trips, but what about his wife and daughers and the other 500 people who were his guests? How do you feel about those expenses? Or, would you just like to be hypocritical and accept that, he's the president and the job comes with perks?

There's right wing efficiency (hypocrisy) in action.

Efficiency is reflected by the results. If Christie can reign in spending, while bringing down union control of the education system, then that would be the best kind of efficiency that any one could ever hope for.

When it comes to what the "tea party" has done in the last couple of years, with handing control of most governorships and the U.S House of Representatives to the republicans, then, again, that's the height of efficiency. And then, the democrats are scared stiff of what's going to happen in the next couple of years, when, without a doubt, the democrats will lose control of the U.S. Senate, and, very likely, Obama will be sent packing back to Kenya.

He decimated higher education to the point increasing college tuition from 18,000 to 30,000 in one year.

College education should not even be the responsibility of government. Government should provide the infrastructure for the K-12 school system, but, after that, it's the responsibility of parents and students to provide for a higher education. The problem with government is that, it has taken on too many responsibilities and duties that belong in the hands of the citizens.

However, chances are that, when it comes to the cost of a college education, any increases are determined by the college/university administration. Other than K-12, no state should be providing tuition for students, especially when the state is having budget problems. But, most importantly, why should the regular Joe, through taxes, have to pay for a complete stranger's college education?

The MV inspection agency is cut so much it took 2 1/2 hours to get my car inspected and all they check is emissions.

Oh, you poor baby!

When I was in NY, I had to wait in line 3 hours, and there weren't any budgetary problems to cause the lines. I put up with while noticing that there were employees just sitting around doing nothing.

The fact is that, most government functions are/were wasteful, and in just about every department, there was bloat.

The inspection workers were shuttling between 3 lines. What a fiasco, it will take years to recover.

Sounds like a lot of inefficiency in that department and not necessarily related to funding.

So, which is better: being able to afford staying in your house, or eating at a restaurant each week while risking losing your house?

If the state is in dire straits with budgets deficits, cuts are demanded, and not just in one area. Reality is a beetch, but you have to face it.

And to top it off, he won't eliminate any tax breaks for the rich.

That's apparently something that way beyond your ability to understand. The rich are the bread and butter of any economy, and they are the ones that keep governments operating. Without their money, neither NJ nor any other state would be able to operate. The poor don't contribute to the state coffers and it's the rich that are providing the funding for the budgets. If you try to take more from the rich, the whole state's economy suffers, and you end up with bigger budget problems. If you pizz-off the rich, they don't have to stay in your state and they can move themselves and their fortunes to somewhere else where they'll be more appreciated. That's what's been happening in NJ and in NY and in California. NJ could easily turn into a Michigan, if the class warfare which you seem to favor, were to happen.
Republican, through and through.

You should be thanking your lucky stars.

So many people that voted for him, want him out of office so bad, they can taste it.

Most likely, only the liberals want him out, because, the liberals would rather risk that the state go into budgetarry default than to get fiscally sound.

However, why is it that there are so many millions, all over the country, wanting Christie to run for president? We need what he has done in NJ to be implemented in the country. The democrats are running scared of a Christie candidacy for the presidency. They know they wouldn't be able to handle him and Obama wouldn't know how to answer the challenge.

This information is relevant here only because ZDNet has gone over to the dark side in the last couple of months.

BS!

ZDNet is CBS, and CBS is ultra-liberal. It would be like having Obama suddenly declaring that he's no longer a democrat and would run like a conservative.

Their propaganda has been out of control and many, many posters have expressed disgust with the authors, with Ed Bott, in particular.

Ed Bott and others here are mostly tech writers. And, when they do stray into politics, there are people out here, like me, who immediately challenge them, and believe me, I mostly challenge their liberalism. If you love liberalism/socialism, ZDNet is your heaven.

I've been registered with ZDNet since 1/30/06 and really have never seen any credibility in Ed's articles anyway,

Now you're getting ridiculous. Hyperbolic posts don't get you any credibility. Try being a bit more realistic.

but the ZDboat is sinking and the first thing they threw overboard was neutral journalism.

When they keep to the technical issues, I don't need to challenge them in their politics. When they stray into politics, I'll challenge them quickly. When it comes to technical issues, I don't let opinions get to me.

This article is a disgrace and like so many others, involves maladies common to any OS, but they focus it on Gmail or any convenient Microsoft competitor.

Why do you have to turn this into a personal issue? Why not just accept that perhaps Ed Bott is wrong, express your opinion, and move on? So, why did you have to bring politics into this, if it's just a disagreement on a technical issue?

If you can't see the propaganda here, there's not much anyone can do to help you.

There's propagand in just about any site, and it doesn't matter what the issue, or the type of issue. Just get your 2 cents in and move on.

I've used Gmail since 2/18/05 and have 57,417 emails. There is no problem with Gmail and I have never had any problems with it.

That is your personal preference, but, your experiences with the service might not be representative of the Gmail audience in general. You might have your Google blinders on, while most others have had bad experiences with Google.

Me, I only use Google search, and for everything else, I don't "Google". I don't trust them with my data, and I don't use any of their services, and when I use Google search, it's as a last resort because I probably couldn't get the results I was looking for throught Bing or some other search engine.

Now, aren't you the one with the biggest bias so far, with your blind liberal ideological beliefs? Aren't you also displaying a bigger bias than Ed Bott, because,you are the one that apparently can't stand it when people attack your precious Google?
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Reply to Adornoe.
Joe.Smetona Updated - 3rd Jun
I read your replies. Thanks, you have made some very eloquent and thought out replies. I appreciate your views.

Who said I'm liberal? That's just a hate label. My position is based on what I see, items like the Scott Walked 20 minute tape, can't be talked away. If you know how rich and big the Koch brothers are, it becomes apparent that a wake up call was provided that a governor can be corrupt and willing to destroy organized labor for his master. It's not liberal to view the facts and form opinions and true facts don't have to be labelled as to to their source. They just happen.

An interesting bumper sticker I saw:

"Annoy a Republican, think for yourself." But it has value both ways, don't you agree.?

Really thinking for your self is the winning answer.

There are a lot of things (unnecessarily) going wrong in NJ. Christy decimated ALL education and announced he will have a $400M surplus? Really?

As far as my views, I don't follow anyone like Rush Limbaugh. It's just noticing what's going on. Unfortunately, the Tea bag movement is against all taxes, but if you ask them if they are willing to give up social security or medicare, they all say "no". Health care is an absolute disgrace in the US. I came to that conclusion myself without help from any group.

Typically the technique being used by Rush and the others is to make the common man feel he shares the wealth of the affluent and is part of their circle. People are proud of their accomplishments and it's not hard for them to aspire to financial greatness or to feel that "they are doing pretty good". Once this connection is made, they can support "no tax cuts for the rich" and other legislative programs that benefit the rich and large corporations.

The problem is layoffs and medical insurance shortfalls don't discriminate and slam down hard on the middle class regardless of political affiliation. This is where I see many "right wing" or conservative true believers get "whacked" and they are left speechless. They get laid off and have insurance problems and really don't know what hit them. All of a sudden, reality strikes them and they realize they aren't millionaires.

John McCain was asked what he thought was the middle class. His reply: Anyone making less than $4 million a year.

It's just fact. Nothing to do with slanted news reports or some talk show host.

Any corporate officer can write a corporate check for the full amount of any medical expenses incurred. So, if a CEO needs a $2,000,000 operation for a brain tumor, he can just write a company check for it - perfectly legal. Do you think he worries about health insurance?

What's the issue with Google? Really, millions of Gmail users, and ZDnet singles them out because some of them get tricked into divulging their login information. How is that a Google or Gmail problem? (See my reply below)
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I read your replies. Thanks, you have made some very eloquent and thought out replies. I appreciate your views.

Glad you enjoyed my response.

Who said I'm liberal?

I don't have to wait for an elephant to tell me he's an elephant in order for me to know that he's an elephant.

That's just a hate label.

So, calling somebody a liberal is "hate speech"? I used to be a liberal, and I never thought of the label as hateful. Perhaps you're beeing too sensitive?

My position is based on what I see, items like the Scott Walked 20 minute tape, can't be talked away.

What you see is also reflected in what you say, and what you say comes straight out of the book of liberal talking points.

If you know how rich and big the Koch brothers are, it becomes apparent that a wake up call was provided that a governor can be corrupt and willing to destroy organized labor for his master.

Look, just like all typical liberals, you'll take an issue and run with it till the end of the world, because, it's something that you hope will bring down the person that you might be disliking at the moment. Corruption in politics is nothing new, and while I'm not condoning it, we have to consider the relative degrees of corruption before deciding that, the slightest bit of corruption or the perception of corruption, is enough to demand that a person leave the world stage of politics and government. If we were to judge every politician in an absolute manner, then we'd end up with no politicans and no government officials.

It's not liberal to view the facts and form opinions and true facts don't have to be labelled as to to their source. They just happen.

When the way you sound or come across, is exactly the same as the general liberal lines, then I'm pretty sure that I have you tagged quite well as a liberal. There was a time when I didn't want to be branded as a conservative and preferred to be "labeled" as independent, but, with time, I realized that, being branded a conservative was right on the money and I eventually accepted the label.

You need to do the same. I see you as a liberal.
An interesting bumper sticker I saw:

"Annoy a Republican, think for yourself." But it has value both ways, don't you agree.?

Interesting bumper sticker, but quite ironic, because, it's the republicans who insist that people do their own thinking, as opposed to democrats and liberals who want to control what people think and what they do.

I'm pretty sure that, if I encountered a person with that bumber sticker, that I would want to sit down with him/her to educated him/her on the irony within the statement.

Really thinking for your self is the winning answer.

That's why I'm a republican; a conservative one, at that.

And, hey, that's after being a liberal for a long time.

Why do you think that democrats like to run commercials that depict a woman getting thrown over a cliff, implying that, that's what the republicans would do with getting rid of Obamacare and moving away from Medicare? They would be lying to the people if that's what they want the people to believe. And, as usual, the liberal voters are the most clueless, and that's why the democrats have been able to get away with lying for so long. They prefer for "their" voters to be dumb and ignorant. The truth never helps the democrats. I learned that a long time ago.

There are a lot of things (unnecessarily) going wrong in NJ. Christy decimated ALL education and announced he will have a $400M surplus? Really?

Look, you have to start using your brain sometime.

When a budget says that, business cannot proceed as usual, then the cuts become necessary, and whan that happens, people will be hurt along the way. It's like when people can no longer go out ot eat once a week when times were better.

Government has no business running with deficits.

And, again, you're being hyperbolic when you claim that Christie "decimated" education. That's liberal speak for "we don't like that Christie is cutting into one of the third rails of politics". The only education that government should be supporting is K-12, and anything beyond that is wasteful on the government side. The unions are the ones that are fighting Christie the most, but, those unions didn't have the needs and education of the kids as their primary concerns. There should never be unions involved when it comes to government provided services. They just create more burdensome and costly layers and regulations.

As far as my views, I don't follow anyone like Rush Limbaugh.

Then, why even show any disdain towards people like Rush, when you don't even know what they're saying? You're not bothering to educate yourself about what Rush and Beck are about? Like that bumper sticker you mentioned, don't just repeat what you hear, and think for yourself. Try to get informed about what people are actually saying and what they're about.

It's just noticing what's going on.

Not good enough. You need to get a wider variety of news and opinion. As it stands, you're in a liberal stronghold, and the news and opinion that you hear, is mostly biased against republicans and conservatives. I know, what its like, because, I used to live in NY, and the news was mostly filtered through the liberal media.
Unfortunately, the Tea bag movement is against all taxes,

You are woefully misinformed. I would consider myself a member of the tea party movement, and I don't want wasteful and corrupt govenment, but, I also realize that, there are government services that are needed, and that funding for them can come mostly via taxation.

You sound like a perfect product of that liberal school indoctrination that keeps people ignroant about the truth. Like I said, you need to get out of that liberal bubble and get a better education on the issues and the politics involved and the people involved.

but if you ask them if they are willing to give up social security or medicare,

Social security is not self-sustainable, and neither is Medicare. Those programs are either bankrupt of about to go bankrupt. As they stand, they're just pyramid schemes, where the current wage earners are paying for the retirees, and what those retirees get in return is a heck of a lot more than they ever contributed in their whole lives.

As a liberal, I used to love seeing those government programs taking care fo the people, but, as I grew older and wiser, I realized that, those programs could be better handled in the private sector, and without the red tape and without the many layers and a lot more efficiently and at lower costs. The only part that I wouldn't mind government involvement for those programs, would be in the enforcement of regulations, where people would be required to contribute to some "social security"/pensio program, and couldn't draw from it until retirement age. Same with Medicare, where people, either through their place of work or as individuals, would be required to pay into a managed health care program. But, in no case, would the government be involved in administration of the programs, because, politics corrupts any system, and when things become politicized, it's never for the best.

My real take on social programs is that, it's not a government function, and it's the responsibility of the people to take care of themselves. The reality is that, Medicare and Social Security and Obamacare and Welfare, don't have a place in government, and they're actually, unconstitutional, especially at the federal level. Social spending was never in the constitution, and spending was required only for defense and infrastructure for "general welfare" and commerce between the states and foreign entities. General welfare is not about "social programs" to take care of the people.

they all say "no".

And I say "no". Government does not have a function to "take care of its people" other than for the common defense.

Health care is an absolute disgrace in the US. I came to that conclusion myself without help from any group.

Then, you need to study up a lot more, because, you sound very clueless on the subjects. Health care is a necessity, but not the responsibility of government. People need to learn how to take care of themselves. People got used to being taken care of, and now that govenment doesn't have the assets to take care of people, the people will have to fend for themselves. In fact, it might be for the better, because, when people become dependent upon government to take care of their needs, the people become unproductive and "controllable". People who depend upon government tend to vote for those that promise them more government, and that's the exclusive domain of liberals, who are always taking advantage of the dependent people and promisiing them more, but only as a result of getting voted into power.

The whole system has become unsustainable, and the deficit and the national debt are the symptoms of the unsustainability. We are borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar spent by the federal government, and a huge percentage of the revenues collected by government are used to pay the debt, but that debt continues climbing. That's insane. There is really no way to recover, and then the democrats insist on continuing to spend us to death. Rasing taxes only reduces the productivity of the private sector, and which then means a bigger loss of revenue to the government. It's like a person being $200,000 in debt, and only earns $50,000 and needs to continue borrowing $50,000 every year just to make ends meet, but meanwhile, his overall debt continues climging by $50,000 each year. That's the insanity which the states and the federal government find themselve in. And then, you're gong to tell me that Christie is doing something wrong?!?! You're part of the problem.
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Typically the technique being used by Rush and the others is to make the common man feel he shares the wealth of the affluent and is part of their circle.

That is so ignorant.

Look, Rush doesn't play the class warfare game and neither does any other republican or conservative. The only people playing the class card, and oftentime the "race card", are the democrats.

You have ot understand what capitalism is about. It's not about everybody being equal, otherwise, there would never be any growth in an economy.

There is a need for the "rich" class, because, they are what makes the free-market system work. Without the free-market system, wealth would never get created, and you'd end up with systems such as you will encounter in Venezuela and North Korea and Cuba and other communist and socialist countries. The rich are the investors and the risk takers. Without their money and know-how, you'd end up with stagnant and non-growth economies, and the results would look like what you find in a lot of poor African and South American countries, with Haiti being a good example of what can happen when you don't have the entreprenuers and the rich and the risk takers and the innovators and the ambitious and the "greedy". Greed, as ugly as it sounds, actually creates wealth, which is actually "re-distributed" into the economy for more growth and jobs. The best wealth redistribution system ever known, is the free-market system, and socialism is actually the best method for wealth destruction ever known.

People are proud of their accomplishments and it's not hard for them to aspire to financial greatness or to feel that "they are doing pretty good".

Most people can feel pride in what they do, but, for wealth creation, it takes more than just pride. It takes innovation and ambitions and risk-taking. Wealth is not created by poor people and it's not created by pride alone.

Once this connection is made, they can support "no tax cuts for the rich" and other legislative programs that benefit the rich and large corporations.

You are still very ignorant about what creates wealth. You cannot take care of the poor people without the wealthy being taken care of first. Wealth is derived from the private sector, and if the private sector is hurt, neither govenment nor the poor, will have the necessities to continue to exist. Government is just a "consumer" of wealth, and the greater the amount of wealth that is taken from the economy, via higher taxes, the more the private sector and the economy will be hurt. What is happening right now, as we speak, is government trying to take care of the little people by trying to take from the wealthy class and from the economy. By doing that, the economy has actually continued to shrink, and we've actually ended up with more unemployment because, there are fewer businesses able to hire becaus they've ended up with less revenue themselves, or are afraid of what government will do next. People are afraid of buying houses and making investments, because, there's a lot of uncertainty about what government will do next. In order for the economy to gain strenght and to grow, government needs to shrink and get out of the way. So, you have things exactly backwards in your suggestions.
The problem is layoffs and medical insurance shortfalls don't discriminate and slam down hard on the middle class regardless of political affiliation. This is where I see many "right wing" or conservative true believers get "whacked" and they are left speechless.


I've been in that situation, but, I only blamed myself for not taking care of the situation before I needed to get the care. I didn't blame government, nor did I seek a govenment handout or a government solution for the problems which I should have provided for on my own. That is the difference between conservatives and democrats, where democrats look to blame somebody other than themselvesl for the situations which they find themselves in.

They get laid off and have insurance problems and really don't know what hit them.

Most republicans and conservatives that I know, might feel a big letdown when they get laid-off or when they lose their jobs, but, most of them have not sought the government way out for their situation, other than the unemployment insurance to which they might feel "entitled". But, again, they didn't desperately turn to liberal solutions to their problems.

All of a sudden, reality strikes them and they realize they aren't millionaires.

Most republicans dont' expect to be millionaires in their lifetime, but, they feel that, to become a millionaire, it's best to work hard to get there. And, when they find themselves in "desperate" situations, they don't "regret" that they're not millionaires. In fact, I doubt that anybody, liberal or any other ideology, thinks that way.

But, the solution to all problems is not to be a millionaire, like you seem to think. The solution is to prepare for the unexpected, and you dont have to be rich or well-off to do that. Apparently, your only solution to all problems is big or bigger government. But, ultimately, the bigger government gets the less there will be for government to actually get anything done. The social programs we have now, including Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid and Food Stamps and others, will run out of funding, and, instead of having what you and the liberals think everybody deserves, we'll all end up with NOTHING. That is the direction that the federal government and state governments are headed. because, you can't continue growing government at the expense of the private sector and the wealthy. There's only so much that can be "confiscated" from the people and businesses before the whole country comes tumbling down.

John McCain was asked what he thought was the middle class. His reply: Anyone making less than $4 million a year.

McCain was not far off, because, with inflation taken into consideration, $4 million dollars today is equivalent to what was considered middle-class some 30-40 years ago; that $4 million dollars would have to be divided by 10 in order to arrive at the spending power of that same person those 30-40 years ago. Many millionaires today would just be middle-class in the past.

But, you need to learn to drop that mentality about playing the class card. Most people would aspire to be rich, and once they get to that status, it's a major help to the economy and to everyone else around them. Wealth begets wealth, and grows an economy and creates jobs and raises people from poverty. The best way to combat poverty, is to create a wealthy class. I know that sounds quite contrary to your every belief, but, it's a fact of economis and actually, of the nature of man.


It's just fact.

What you understand as fact, is what's become ingrained in you, and that's that, the rich are rich at the expense of the poor. You need to be de-programmed from that indoctrination that comes from living in a liberal bubble.
Nothing to do with slanted news reports or some talk show host.

BS!

You sound exactly like someone that's been indoctrinated by the single-sided news and opinion that comes from just listening to the liberal media. I know first hand what I'm talking about, because, I too saw what the liberal media was about when I lived in NY, and I still see it. You need a good dose of Rush and Beck and FOX (btw, FOX is not even considered republican or conservative by "right-wingers"). You need to get out of that liberal environement before you can learn the truth about the issues.

Any corporate officer can write a corporate check for the full amount of any medical expenses incurred.

That would be very stupid and very poor planning and very poor business practice. Where did you get your knoledge of economics? Kindergarten?

Even the rich can have catastrophic illnesses and injuries which can wipe out their savings and/or wealth. So, most of them would plan for a better outcome from an illness or an injury.

Furthermore, most "corporate officers" are not rich; it's only the very high echelon of the major corporations, who would have enough wealth to pay for hospital and/or medical care. Corporations are not "single-owner" entities, and the real owners are the stock-holders, who would not take kindly to someone writing a check, from the corporate coffers, for the full amount of that corporate officer's medical expenses.

So, you not only sound "liberal", but you also sound very naive.

0So, if a CEO needs a $2,000,000 operation for a brain tumor, he can just write a company check for it - perfectly legal.

That's actually very stupid.

That check would be very invalid and actually, illegal. Most corporate officers are already covered by that corporation's medical plans, even if at a higher level than the regular employees.

You sound like the typical liberal with a fifth grade education who only knows how to make a lot of assumptions and doesn't thnk things through.

Do you think he worries about health insurance?

Actually, most of them do. They can't just write a check against a corporate account for their medical expenses. That's not how things work.

Your problem is that, you aren't really educated on how things actually work in the real world, and you just know how to make assumptions and repeat the lies you've been told all your life. To me, you sound like you haven't made it out of middle-school yet. Nobody that has been educated and grown-up, would make so many clueless and ignorant statemenst as you have.

That liberal school education you got has failed to make you an informed citizen. If you're a product of the NJ school system, then Christie is doing the right thing by battling that liberal school system which failed you and millions of other people so miserably.
there's a lot you need to learn, and to further educate
you on the situation on the ground, read the following:

More Americans Think Economy Will Never Recover

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/More-Americans-Think-Economy-cnbc-3492482385.html

The mixed signals regarding the economy's health are taking a toll.

Americans are growing increasingly doubtful about direction of the US economy, according to the latest survey from business-advisory firm AlixPartners.

In fact, an increasing number, some 61 percent, say they don't expect to return to their respective pre-recession lifestyles until the spring of 2014, if ever.

What's worse, a full 10 percent said they expect they will never return to pre-recession spending.

That's a more pessimistic view than last year, when those surveyed expected that they could be back to pre-recession spending levels by the middle of 2013.

"Americans continue to push their expectations for return to a pre-recession 'normal' further and further into the future-close enough for comfort, but far enough away to seem realistic," said Fred Crawford, CEO of AlixPartners. "But as that happens, more and more it seems normal is actually where we are right now."

*****************************************

People like you need to realize that, the times are not normal and that the situation is very dire, and if something is not done soon, that the whole country will dive into deep recession or into a depression, which will make government services a completely moot question.
In terms of a homeowner using a pellet mill to make their own fuel, unless they have some way to generate additional income from the mill, it is not worth their time.
http://www.pelletmillguide.com/critical_factors_on_investing_wood_pellet_mills.html pellet production

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