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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Google: 'We can protect the values of Android'

By | August 8, 2011, 2:24pm PDT

Summary: A Google executive says the company has “several options” the company can take to “help protect the values of Android.”

John Lagerling, director of Android global partnerships at Google, said the company can work with its partners to protect the values of Android and fend off patent lawsuits.

Lagerling, speaking at a Pacific Crest investment conference, addressed the patent issue on a day where the topic was front and center. Google last week blasted Apple and Microsoft for leading a consortium that won Nortel’s mobile patent portfolio. Tech insiders have been going back and forth about Google’s response ever since. Meanwhile, Google’s court sparring over Android with Oracle looks like it may be backfiring a bit.

Also see: Software patents: Lots of whining, but reform unlikely

Here’s what Lagerling said:

Without going into too much detail, I do think that we have very strong paths that we can take to protect the values of Android that we have built through the open-source Apache 2 license with our partners. Obviously, Google doesn’t build — we don’t build phones and devices, but we had a vested interest in protecting the values of the Android ecosystem.

So when our partners are being attacked by aggressors, which we see as materially unfounded, it’s something that we join up together with our partners to resolve. And we have, I think, several options that we can take that will help protect the values of Android.

So again, we want to protect innovation. Patents were supposed to be there to enable innovation and monetization of innovation. When it’s being used in a prospective which is more to, as we see it, stifle innovation, it’s not something that is good for consumers.

Android is the only operating system, modern smart-phone operating system, that exists on devices that cost $200 or less. That is what is enabling the next billion of users of the Internet on mobile in the world. There might be players that are not so excited to see the margins and the prices go down like that and the variety that Android enables, but I think we are very convinced that we will be able to continue and create and protect the value of Android.

The big question is how Google will be able to protect those Android values and what tools the company has at its disposal.

See also:

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: Google: 'We can protect the values of Android'
blueskip 26th Aug
@Cylon Centurion They would if there actually was any. But thanks to morons like this judge - and most US judges - they'll end up removing code that doesn't even belong to Larry Putz Ellison.
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Yeah, here's a way - remove the infringing code. wink
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@Cylon Centurion

Companies like Apple and MS pay millions to licence tech. Why should Google get a free pass?
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re: License the infringing designs.
Return_of_the_jedi Updated - 9th Aug
@Bruizer

"... like Apple ... pay millions to licence tech."
Pisst.
FYI: Apple didn't pay millions for the fast boot patent. eh?

" This patent , currently owned by a Florida-based company calling itself Operating Systems Solutions, LCC, was once owned by LG Electronics back in 1999."

PS. Google hating? I personally think that's a waste of energy.
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It calls out BIOS (Macs do not have one), autoexec.bat (OS X does not use one), and config.sys (again OS X does not use one.

Nice attempt: FAIL!!!
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RE: Google: 'We can protect the values of Android'
Return_of_the_jedi Updated - 8th Aug
@Bruizer

"Nice attempt: FAIL!!!"

I didn't claim to be the judge or jury. I'll leave that up to you.
It won't be settled on Zdnet's blog today, that's for sure.

Have a good day.

PS. I hope Google doesn't "P" in your cereal tomorrow morning.
@Bruizer

The patent uses those files as examples of auto configuration scripts. The relevant files in a POSIX distribution such as BSD would be init scripts and their configuration files.

EFI or BIOS would still be covered by the patent, since they perform similar tasks and patents cover ideas not implementations.

OSS LLC can simply argue that while terminology and implementation has changed, the intent and claims of the patent are still clear.

Nice attempt: FAIL!!!
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@Bruizer

The allegations facing Google haven't been validated by the legal system as Florian Mueller is a self-proclaimed scholar on the subject. Especially Oracle. Depsite Mueller's incomplete reporting, you are free to hate on Google as much as you like.

Google does win some of their battles. Just ask Viacom how the initial round went...
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Yes, but...
John L. Ries Updated - 8th Aug
@Cylon Centurion
...the identity of the patents supposedly infringed and how they are supposed to infringe are confidential trade secrets of MS (at least we know that Oracle's claims relate to Java). If Google actually figured out what they were, MS could sue them for industrial espionage.

Reply to chipbeef--

I was being sarcastic, of course. However, MS has a history of making public accusations of patent infringement without publicly disclosing the patents allegedly violated. Apparently they got the idea from SCO (yes, I know that SCO was alleging copyright infringement; the strategy is essentially the same, nevertheless).
@John L. Ries - I disagree. As I under stand it, trade secrets lose their value if someone else figures out the secret. That's what NDAs are for - to keep those who know from blabbing.

I can't see how Google would be liable for independently figuring out the same secret. Perhaps if a causality that they undertook efforts to ferret out the secret, but not for independent discovery.
@Chip Beef - You're on the right track. You can keep the design and theory a trade secret and avoid disclosure but then you don't get any protection for it, or you can disclose in a patent and enjoy patent protection but also everyone knows how it works. That's the theory. Patents exist for the express purpose of encouraging disclosure and allowing others to build and innovate on top of your invention. If you aren't willing to see that happen, you don't get a patent.
@John L. Ries
The patents Microsoft has been using in their cases against Android manufacturers are not trade secrect as those patent are clearly lisated in several lawsuits like those against Motorola and B&N.
@John L. Ries

If it's covered by a patent, then the patent, along with all the information necessary to reduce the patent to practice, is fully described inside a document that is part of the public domain. Hence, by definition, it cannot be a trade secret.
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Look at the actual patents...
ChickenLiver 8th Aug
@Cylon Centurion

Microsoft has a patent on double clicking.
Apple has a patent (Patent 5,946,647) on recognizing and manipulating data structures in data (Like hyperlinks, or, heck, your OS's file allocation table).
Also has Patent 6,343,263 on all devices that do real time signal processing. Like talking to cell towers.

A lot of these patents are just ridiculous. Without violating them, you couldn't make a browser, a cell phone, or coffee, most likely.

As for the Oracle lawsiut... Remove Java from Android, and you don't have much user facing code left.
@ChickenLiver There is no Java in Android. Developers write programs in Java (a completely open sourced and free to use language), which is then compiled by the Dalvik cross compiler into byte code compatible with the android system. There is no Java code on an Android phone, there are no Java libraries, and there is no Java VM.
@ChickenLiver Completely agree, it would nearly be impossible these days to make a program and not be infringing some way.

Ofcourse not all are bad,
@Cylon Centurion guess it'll work

Awesome physics game
@Cylon Centurion They would if there actually was any. But thanks to morons like this judge - and most US judges - they'll end up removing code that doesn't even belong to Larry Putz Ellison.
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What are "the values of Android?"
Anne Nonymous 8th Aug
Clearly, to Google, the value of Android is locking users into GMail and its other services, perpetuating its monopoly. At the same time, it wants to make money on them by compiling dossiers on them and spying on them via its various services and Web sites. Valuable to Google, but not to the rest of us.
@Anne Nonymous - Define "locking users into Gmail"? You mean providing Gmail as an option? I know plenty of people who don't use Gmail but have and use an Android phone.
@BIGELLOW
But the reality is that it is in the interest of the company (Google, Apple, MS, RIM, whomever) to lock you into their eco-system.
@ptorning Google doesn't need to lock people in, and they've never tried to. You can always get your data out of Google. Google relies on building quality desirable products that people want to keep using. You only need locks when your customer base doesn't like your products.

I don't know anyone who uses Gmail or Google Docs or anything else Google wise because they don't have any other option. People use them because they work and do the job well.
@Anne Nonymous Not really. See, you can access Gmail via POP if you want, or you can request a complete dump of all your email. The value is in the ability to display ads either directly or via embedded services like Google Maps. Now, I don't know about you but I love Ads in Google Maps! Ads let me know where that business I'm looking for is, when I get out of the Taxi. They let me know where a nearby coffee shop is, and so on. Google works for me as a personal assistant, learning what I do and don't like, where I want to go and how I want to get there, what topics I'm interested in. I look forward to the day I can say to google "Book me a Taxi to the airport, and a book to read on the plane", and it will know the Taxi company I prefer, my tastes in reading and what I've read already, and which Airline and flight I previously asked for a ticket on. And it will do this through a personal augmented reality avatar that only I can see, tuned to my preferences.
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Like it or not ...
P. Douglas Updated - 8th Aug
... patents is the way the computer industry has been re-asserting the value of software in light of the growth of Open Source Software, and similar things, which tend to devalue it. I think software patents are horrible and should be eliminated. But large software companies aren't going to give up their beating stick easily, as long as OSS poses a serious economic threat to the software industry. This whole thing is a mess.
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About right
John L. Ries 8th Aug
@P. Douglas
That's why MS champions software patents, even though they lose far more patent lawsuits than they win.

Of course, I still maintain that any proprietary developer who can't compete with open source on the merits deserves to be in business about as much as a professional mechanic who can't compete with high school kids or a professional orchestra that can't compete with community bands.
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RE: Google: 'We can protect the values of Android'
global.philosopher Updated - 8th Aug
Patents are for stealing...and Google et al are good at it.

When Google says that patents "stifle innovation" they mean at the point that the innovation has finished and the patent has been registered. Google forget that there was a considerable amount of innovation (not in all cases) to get to the point of patent creation. Google only looks at the end result (the patent) and says "Hey, your patent is stopping us guys from further innovating on your innovation....oh yeah...without your innovation we would have no innovation, but F you we aint gonna pay for your innovation because that will cost us money so we are going to publicly whinge instead.".
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@global.philosopher haha eloquently put!
Google go F yourself!
@global.philosopher
Are you sure you are not referring to MS and i4i. As far as I know, Google has never been convicted of infringement.
@global.philosopher
There was a time when patents actually meant something. General Electric and Westinghouse held key radio patents. The problem was that neither could make a radio without the others patents. They solved it by placing their patents into a holding company and called it Radio Corporation of America.

Google and Samsung both admitted that they are not copying. They are "competing". Yeah. Right.
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@global.philosopher Well that would be true, except for patents such as the one for a graphic that indicates the direction to slide to unlock a phone. This btw is one of the patents that Apple is asserting to block Samsung from releasing their tablet in Australia. The patent should never have been issued, it clearly doesn't meet any kind of standards for novelty and non-obviousness, yet it exists and until it is proven invalid on re-examination or by court verdict, it is presumed valid and can be used to sue and get injunctions, forcing your competition to either settle out of court or go through an expensive legal battle, and all the time that is happening you're delaying their ability to release their competing product to the market, while the 'state of the art' advances.

Can you see how that is bogus and ********?
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Lagerling: "And we have, ... options that we can take that will help protect the values of Android."

Glendower:
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;But will they come when you do call for them?

Glendower:
Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil

Hotspur: And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil by telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

So, Mr. Glendower uhh, Lagerling, you CAN say whatever you like, as you indeed are doing. But while you were posturing with empty words and non-promises, Apple was in court, trying to protect ITS developers (and yours, too, as most are cross-platform) from Lodsys's depredations.

Which is more likely to shame the devil? Is Google's Legal Dept merely a division of PR or Marketing, making "bogus," untrue claims, or does it actually do anything to protect the people who it says it cares about?

Glad I'm not an Android developer!
@WaltFrench@... Apples and Oranges. Lodsys sued the iOS developers over their use of Apple's in-app purchasing system. Android has only recently introduced in-app purchasing, so Android developers are not generally at risk unless they go and implement in-app purchasing themselves at which point it has nothing to do with Google or Android. In so far as only 1 Android developer has come forward with claims of harassment from Lodsys, there really isn't a need for Google to step into the arena just yet - particularly as the fight with iOS developers may see the whole thing go away anyway.
Apple and iOS - many things borrowed - if things don't build on each other to some extent - major slow downs in innovations.

Access your home PC from your Android device by using the 2X client App from
http://www.2x.com
also has client for iOS. Voted 20th overall best Android App!
I do not know about Google's past history with infringement, but i can say that in this specific case with apple Google is the good guy.

People that are claiming they are 'stealing' clearly have not looked at the patents they are being sued for (Overly broad, common use).

Im not saying Patents are a bad thing, they just need a massive overhaul.
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@Frenz9 ... and easy to create after somebody shows you how to do it.

FACT: Android was a (poor) clone of the Blackberry OS and right after the iPhone was release, it became a clone of the iOS.
I'm going to start a new company and call it Gooogle. I am going to sell ads and launch my own ad banners in a frame showing Youtube (own by Google) videos and remove all google ads. (I'm just going to show all the top ranked - ranked by Google - most advertising rich videos and save server space)

Let's see whether Google is going to Applaud my 'Innovation' (hey I'm basing my name Gooogle on prior innovation just like Android is basing it other patented innovation. I'm 'innovating' by adding a "o". ) or whether they are going to "stifle" it with a lawsuit.
@Davewrite You are doing a clean room implementation of Google's website interface, filtering the output with a refactored java script you grabbed from google.com and you are using an Apache server .... therefore you are googlevating (Google's version of innovation).
@Davewrite Be carefull....

MS may sue you for imitating Bing.
Think the article would be more interesting if it would explain what possibility's a group of Android makers with Google has to defend itself. And there are a number of options. Look at the Lodsys case. Should the developers there had to give in?
Of course, you will not find them on Florian's blogspot, but that is your problem. There were enough warnings posted on this site.
Another google idoit talking. What 'values' have they got to talk about. What a shame.
About the Oracle-Google case, it gives a view of the patent system. Perhaps it matches most a game. First round you register patents. The texts should be as vaque and as general as possible. That is helpful later in the game. The USPTO is your first adversity, he can shoot some of your claims down. But only some. With the remaining claims, including the invalid ones, you are in a winning position. You may shoot at will now at almost anyone. One's you shoot at them they will be loosing points, whatever they do. Also from now on they will be called infringers. Of course they could not know if they were infringing with the vague text and the USPTO validation not offering any guarantee. But that are the rules of the game. But you can not lose point by making false claims or shooting with false claims.
The infringers with a lot of points can retaliate with their own patents. Others must now either transfer game point to you or try to prove they are not infringing or the patents are false. But to do both last things will also cost them points. If they succeed depends on luck, the number of points they use, and the granted available time...
I am not an expert on these matters - and in reality can't understand all the technical arguments as to who infringed who's patent when. Although some of them that I do understand seem ridiculous!

The one thing which is clear to me however is that all of these companies are not reallly concerned about their intellectual property being stolen - they are simply trying to get rid of competing products. If they can't do it through the marketplace with a better product, they aim to do it through the courts - probably more by frightening competitors and stalling their products than any real expectation of clearly winning!

Bad for innovation! Bad for the consumer! Bad for the future!
The only way to protect Android is to buy a mobile phone handset maker.

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