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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

HTC's latest patent suit vs. Apple makes use of acquired IP

By | August 16, 2011, 8:54am PDT

Summary: HTC’s latest patent lawsuit in an ongoing battle with Apple includes two acquired from ADC.

If you can’t rack up patents, acquiring them looks like a swell idea. Just ask HTC, which sued Apple in another patent lawsuit between the two parties.

On Monday, HTC filed a lawsuit against Apple over three patents: 7,417,944, 7,672,219 and 7,765,414. Of those patents, only one comes from HTC organically. The other two come via ADC Telecom. HTC paid $75 million to pick up those patents in April.

Sound familiar? Of course it does. HTC acquired S3’s patents, which can be used as ammunition to fend off Apple’s various lawsuits. The International Trade Commission already ruled that Apple is infringing on two S3 patents.

And the mother lode of patent acquisitions appeared yesterday via Google’s $12.5 billion purchase of Motorola Mobility. That deal was all about the patents—specifically 17,000 of them. If you assume Nortel’s 6,000 patents set the benchmark for intellectual property purchases at $4.5 billion, Google basically justified its Motorola Mobility deal with patents. The hardware business is worth next to nothing.

These are wild times in the patent landscape. A company like HTC can spend $375 million acquiring patents (S3 and ADC combined) and justify the returns based on lawsuit defenses. On the surface, HTC’s latest patent lawsuit looks run of the mill. But judging from the patent acquisitions of late you can assume there will be many more lawsuits on deck.

htcvsaapl081511

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: HTC's latest patent suit vs. Apple makes use of acquired IP
X107 18th Aug
@athynz

This is all why they just need corporate assassins to run around killing all the lawyers and head honchos till they decide that instead of suing to just start making their product.

Honestly I just get sick of hearing of all these idiotic lawsuits over some of the dumbest things. I don't care which company(s) are doing it. They all just need to stop and work towards making (us) the consumers happier with the products.
All of this money could have been spent on improving the products and services that are offered to us, the consumers. Instead, companies have to spend hundreds of millions and even billions to protect themselves against companies like Apple.

We all lose.
@toddybottom Instead, companies have to spend hundreds of millions and even billions to protect themselves against companies like Apple.

Because Apple is the ONLY one who is suing other companies. I'm not defending Apple in this but pointing out that other companies have sued over tech as well. Your statement implies that Apple is the only predatory tech company around.
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What are you talking about?
toddybottom 16th Aug
@athynz
"Your statement implies that Apple is the only predatory tech company around."

No it doesn't. Here is the quote and I've capitalized the important word:
"protect themselves against companies LIKE Apple"

I am clearly doing the exact opposite of implying that Apple is the only predatory tech company around.

That being said, Apple is the biggest predatory tech company around. But not the only one.
@athynz Seems toddy bottom believes it is ok to sue Apple, using broad patents. But Apple is evil if it does the same. You can even see the bias in his comments [That being said, Apple is the biggest predatory tech company around.] Ignoring the fact that there are several patent trolling companies. Why cannot HTC just come up with their own tech instead of copying other company?s tech?
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Apple is a predatory tech company.

Apple is the biggest tech company.

Therefore Apple is the biggest predatory tech company.

Not sure why that is so confusing to you.
@Rick, you're missing the point. Nobody's copying anyone else's tech. Patents for ridiculously broad ideas are issued all the time and it's impossible to create a product without bumping into one or more of them. I guarantee you I couldn't create a small, hand-held media-playing device without stepping on at least a dozen patents... look at Apple being sued because its products boot quickly. Buttons are probably patented... I know Atari held a patent on the joystick. If you wanted to do things like have a button perform a user-selectable function, rearrange menu items on the fly, you think of it, someone's patented it. Remember Amazon had a patent on one-click ordering? It's insane. When Apple sues someone you've got to stop repeating "Why can't X make their own products instead of copying Apple?" and start asking "Why the bleep was Apple issued a patent on THAT?"
@athynz And that of course is not true. Now saying that they are attacking others over the most vague and unenforceable patents...now we're talking.
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timspublic1: unenforceable?
toddybottom 16th Aug
I suspect Apple's patents are very enforceable. And I don't say that to suggest it is a good thing.

The truth is that Apple doesn't even need to win its lawsuits to win in the market. It just needs to freeze the competition. It also helps that each of Apple's lawsuits siphons money away from competitors' R&D department and into their legal department / patent purchasing departments.

We all lose when Apple sues.
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@athynz
patented "the tablet"? wink.

Oh, and speaking of bias - you want us to actually belive you are unbiased (ROTFLMAO!) - the guy putting words in everyone's mouths when they say something you would rather spin?

Now, back to that doctored photo of the Galaxy Tab. happy
  • Flagged
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It very clearly states that Apple has breached several S3 patents... S3 could sue but they're now owned by someone else, HTC.

Your banal argument could be directed at Apple.. why don't Apple go create their own stuff. We all know they do to a large extent then steamroad the bits they need off others. But for some reason, in your mind, that doesn't matter. They are Apple and they can do what they want. WRONG, they all live by the same rules and maybe one day sense will prevail but I tell you one thing.. whilst Apple insist that gestures, and form (ultra outline only), are theirs that day is way off. Gestures are gestures; how you code the recognition in your OS is a different matter. Go HTC...
@athynz

This is all why they just need corporate assassins to run around killing all the lawyers and head honchos till they decide that instead of suing to just start making their product.

Honestly I just get sick of hearing of all these idiotic lawsuits over some of the dumbest things. I don't care which company(s) are doing it. They all just need to stop and work towards making (us) the consumers happier with the products.
@toddybottom You could easily say that HTC is acting in a predatory manor. Trying to harm an American company, on American soil. Maybe any true Americans should boycott all HTC products.
@Rick_Kl
How is HTC acting in a predatory manner? How is it trying to harm Apple? These patents were clearly purchased to defend itself against Apple's attempt to harm HTC.

HTC is tiny. Apple is huge. Apple is trying to crush HTC. HTC just wants to survive. Unfortunately, instead of surviving by releasing better and better products, a substantial amount of their capital is tied up defending themselves against companies like Apple. Consumers end up with a product that has $300+ million less R&D in it.

We all lose.
@toddybottom Suing with patents that were assigned after the fact (I am sure prior art will come up), in an effort to ban the sale of all the companies product is indeed a predatory move. If you also read the patents involved, they are very broad and non descriptor. That being said, HTC is doing the exact same thing as Apple is doing, protecting their assigned patents. But it is intellectually bankrupt to say Apple is acting a in a predatory manner, and when someone else does the same thing it is not.
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@Rick_Kl
Sorry if you can't see the difference.
@toddybottom So its okay for one company to protect their patents, but it is predatory if another one does? What were your comments when Microsoft sued HTC? Werent you one of the many that thought it was okay? After all Microsoft was only seeking payment on any Android phone sold. Apple on the other hand is saying come up with you own tech and stop using ours. So suddenly Apple is predatory? Or do you believe that it is okay to steal IP, as long as it is Apples IP?

Edit: HTC is seeking to have a permanent injunction against Apple. Preventing Apple from making, importing selling, or offering for sale phones, tablets, notebook computers Desktop computers and MP 3 players. Or in other words, completely wiping out Apples entire product line.
@Rick_Kl
"Trying to harm an American company, on American soil. Maybe any true Americans should boycott all HTC products" - LOL, yeah, Apple is a true American company... You are so patriotic. Where is every one of Apple's devices made again? If you're really that patriotic, you shouldn't mind banning all chinese-made devices. Today's "American" companies are little more than executive staff and a few pencil-pushers; the rest of the company resides in other countries... including their headquarters (*cough* mailbox) so they can evade American taxes. Sorry, but I don't feel too sorry for corporate America these days - I have about as much patriotism for them as they do for American workers.
@NetAdmin1178 While it is true that the manufacturing has been shipped overseas, Apple still employes a large number of American workers. Steve Jobs indicated that Apple is looking to hire many thousand new employees when their mew campus is built. That being said, when you call Apple for support, at least you speak to an American. As opposed to many other American companies, that have not only their manufacturing shipped overseas, but also their support done in countries like India and Pakistan.
@Rick_Kl
While I'll concede that Apple does employ more than "a few" Americans, it is still disproportionately biased to overseas workers when you consider the amount of jobs involved in the manufacture of their devices. And I am sorry that I'm singling out Apple in this argument (you first singled them out as an American company), because the majority of "American" companies do the same thing. In my personal opinion, once a company has done this, they aren't an American company anymore, they're an international company; and I refuse to follow the "buy American / support American" M.O. for these companies; to me they've done as much damage to the American worker as any overseas company has. I feel the same in the use of h1-b visas in these companies as well (which I'm sure Apple will be using for more than a few of the job openings in their new building). I do applaud Apple for using Americans for support, though its my guess that if they could get away with using outsourced support without tarnishing their image, they would.
@Rick_Kl
What does Microsoft have to do with anything?

Apple is using its patents in a predatory offensive manner irregardless of what MS does.

HTC had to purchase these patents to defend itself from predatory companies like Apple.

And Apple, being the biggest company in the world, is the biggest company that is using its patents in a predatory offensive manner.

So much money wasted on defensive patents when it could have been put into making better products for consumers to enjoy.

We all lose.
@Rick_Kl As far as I can tell, HTC is attempting to use patents against Apple to STOP Apple from banning products. It does not appear that HTC wants to ban any Apple products, or anyone else's. This is a defensive move against Apple who IS very actively trying not just to extract license fees, but actually ban competition.
@Rick_Kl LOL, that was a joke right?
@Rick_Kl
While it's true that the hardware is manufactured overseas, you are overlooking that Apples does all the design in U.S., and the software is written here as well. IMO, the software is what makes Apple products sell.
@toddybottom IF HTC had invested money in R&D in the first place, then they would not be looking at a lawsuit. If I remember it correctly when Microsoft went after HTC, you supported Microsoft?s position (but I could be wrong). Apple does spend billion yearly to come up with creative and innovative products. When another company?s reaction to a new device is to copy it, they should be taken to task over it. The logical problem here is: Apple sued HTC of patent infringement on specific products. HTC Countersues seeking to ban all Apple products. Suing to remove your tech from anther company?s products is different that suing to ban all of a company?s products, the fact that you cannot see that is not my failing, but yours.
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Good lord.
Cayble 16th Aug
@Rick_Kl
Whoa is me America.

Ya, and maybe fake Americans should boycott Apple products.

You sure don't have to look very far to see why some companies think their poor business behavior is supported out there in the public community.
@toddybottom Apple is the bad guys here? If Google did not steal (using without paying for ) technology of others then it would not be having the problems it is today.
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2 responses for you
toddybottom 16th Aug
@kpbpsw
http://gizmodo.com/5483914/steve-jobs-1996-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal
My favorite Steve Jobs quotes:
"Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal"
and
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."

My second response is that Apple should be feeling very sympathetic for HTC's plight considering Nokia had been begging for Apple to pay for the various Nokia patents Apple was using in the iPhone. Apple knew they were violating Nokia's patents but didn't care.

Apple is the bad guy here. But Apple is not alone. There are a lot of bad guys there. The difference is that Apple is the biggest and as such, get the most attention. It was the same with Microsoft. When Microsoft was the biggest, they got the most attention.

Apple just happens to be the biggest bad guy right now. It will change in 30-40 years when some new tech company becomes bigger than Apple.
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Blasphemy!!!
William Farrell 16th Aug
@toddybottom

It will change in 30-40 years when some new tech company becomes bigger than Apple.

Blasphemer!!
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Lawyers gotta eat too
oncall 16th Aug
@toddybottom

Come on it's all soo exciting. Getting all lawyer-ed up and suing the pants off someone! If there wasn't the lawsuits to talk about why even visit ZDNET?

Just joking with ya.

I honestly am not sure myself. I mean, if there wasn't any legal protections these companies would just run all over each other. Granted, the system kind of sucks, and maybe that's an understatement but business is moving ahead. We still have store shelves full of a multitude of choices despite the background legal gamesmanship.
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I agree
toddybottom 16th Aug
@oncall
"We still have store shelves full of a multitude of choices despite the background legal gamesmanship."

Absolutely right. Just think about how much better they could be though.

Like I said, this is an opportunity cost. It doesn't mean that companies aren't putting out products, it just means that they aren't putting out products as good as would otherwise be possible.

As long as there are companies out there that will use their patents in a predatory manner, all other companies out there must spend money to defend themselves. The bigger the predator, the more money you have to spend to defend yourself.
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Agreed
oncall 16th Aug
@toddybottom

But it's the hand we are dealt. You and I both know that this is how things would turn out. Either we have no regulation and business becomes a bloodbath where, literally, he who has the least scruples and the biggest checkbook wins. OR over-regulation where creativity is strangled, i.e. he who got there first gets exclusive rights and no competition. Or something in the middle, where we are now.

And when you are in the middle, as we are now, the game is to push the limits of the law, to define the legal boundaries. Apple, as the dominant player in this particular niche, is setting out to define a maximum boundary, Samsung and others are trying to limit those boundaries. You know darn well if the roles were reversed Samsung would fight just as hard. Why are we not hearing about lawsuits in the PC/Mac world? Because those boundaries have already been legally settled. In a couple years all this will have blown over.
@toddybottom Not me! I'm going to start patenting random things (mad libs-style generation) and then sell the patents to tech companies!
@toddybottom

Key word "could". Just because companies spend $$$ on patent grabs and lawyers doesn't mean that $$$ would have been spent on R&D otherwise. Let's not forget HTC is in this situation in part because they opted to leverage a FOSS mobile OS rather than spend $$$ on the R&D to develop their own like Apple, RIM and Microsoft have.
hurray to the nonsense created by a broken DMCA. i was wondering whether there was even an open debate attended by the hard-hitter of the tech sector before this idiotic law was passed. any idea? and was it specifically promulgated to target/chase moms and kids to exact havoc on their future? or was it for the benefit of the idiotic music industry?
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This is a new era in technology
toddybottom 16th Aug
Unfortunately, a good idea and a good product is useless in today's technology market because it is absolutely impossible to create anything that doesn't infringe on at least one of Apple's (or any of the other big patent holding companies) patents.

Any company looking to make it big has to spend hundreds of millions (or even billions) in order to purchase defensive patents in case Apple (or a company like Apple) decides to sue them into oblivion.

We all lose.
@toddybottom Too true, which is one reason why i believe IP Patents need a overhaul.

There are too many broad/random patents. Using the Ipad as an example, it is using common progression, even if the ipad never existed tablets would be violating it.
@toddybottom

So how come Apple is being sued by more companies than it is suing?

HTC and Samsung are the only companies where Apple initiated proceedings.

Nokia, Motorola, Kodak and all the rest were mounted as attacks on Apple.
@bannedagain um... what? Apple sued Nokia.

Fact check much?

Better still - find us ONE example of a company that sued Apple BEFORE Apple sued them first. Be specific. Do your research (Apple has a TON of lawsuits.... don't miss any of them, ok?)
Sue the for $googol!
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Cold War mentality
thandermax Updated - 17th Aug
@goingbust This cold-war mentality is actually harming the tech industry, where they could have made significant research and development on new products (may be in wearable gadgets, VR etc), they are too busy in saving their a** from others.


Looks like in next ~5 years this trend will continue until all of them realizes their mistake and start making progressive steps.

So we, as a customer, might loose really cool gadgets/technology/invention from maturing for common people in next 5-10 years.
All major players acquire a portfolio of patents - one way or another - and then it simply becomes "sue me and I'll sue you". There's no win or lose. Everyone is in court forever and maybe you'll break even. As has been said, everything infringes on some patent somewhere and if everyone has enough missiles ready to launch, it just doesn't matter. btw - I have a patent on "selling things for money".

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