Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Judge denies Google's witness complaint in Microsoft-Motorola dispute

By | August 17, 2011, 2:02pm PDT

Summary: Google’s motion to block key testimony from Microsoft and Motorola’s patent dispute case has been denied. Google is said to be “afraid” of the outcome.

A U.S. judge has rejected a move by Google to block crucial testimony of a Microsoft key witness, in an ongoing patent dispute with Motorola.

U.S. International Trade Commission Judge Theodore Essex earlier this week denied Google’s motion to block testimony from Robert Stevenson, an Android expert working with Microsoft.

Microsoft has accused Motorola of infringing a patent, with its phones that run Google’s Android operating system. Google put forward a motion last week alleging that Microsoft improperly shared “confidential” source code with an expert witness in the case. Google wanted to prevent the witness from testifying, but was shot down earlier this week.

Stevenson is thought to have seen “highly propriety” source code that Google “does not even share with its partners, such as Motorola

Google should have attempted to resolve the matter with Microsoft, but allegedly did not receive a reply from Microsoft’s attorney, CNET reports.

The judge in the case, however, dropped the motion, allowing Stevenson to testify at the upcoming hearing.

Though the patent dispute involves Google in that the discussion on the table relates to its Android operating system, only Microsoft and Motorola — the two disputing parties — are allowed to file motions for sanctions.

Google — which always insists that Android is an open operating system — clearly is not.

Google is thought to be “extremely afraid” of the outcome to this investigation, according to one source. If it is found that Motorola and other Android-based devices infringe patents belonging to Microsoft, then any of Google’s partners would have to pay royalties back to Microsoft.

This comes in the week that Google announced it will acquire Motorola Mobility; the handset making arm of Motorola, which would not only heavily increase Google’s patent portfolio, but allow the search giant to become a fully fledged mobile manufacturer.

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Zack Whittaker, a criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, Canterbury, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

Disclosure

Zack Whittaker

I worked briefly with Microsoft UK in 2006 but no longer have any connection with the company. Regardless, I remain impartial and unbiased in my views.

I don't hold any stock or shares, investments or industrial secrets in any company, but have signed confidentiality agreements with a number of UK and U.S. organisations, whose names I am not at liberty to disclose.

I was involved with Kent Union, the University of Kent's student union, undertaking voluntary, non-salaried, elected positions between early 2009 and mid-2010.

No other company, body, government department, non-governmental organisation or third sector organisation employs me or pays me a salary in any capacity whatsoever.

As a freelance journalist, whenever expenses are given and taken by a company that is not CBS Interactive, these will be disclosed in each relevant post to ensure transparency.

I currently work with a UK law enforcement unit, but this is an entirely separate position which bears no connection to other work.

(Updated: 23rd October 2011)

Biography

Zack Whittaker

Zack Whittaker, criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, UK, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

After studying criminology at university, though still in his early-20's, he has already had a series unconventional work and voluntary positions. He has worked with researchers studying neurological illnesses like Tourette's syndrome (which he suffers from), has given lectures on the nature of disabilities in the public community, and occasionally ends up speaking on television and radio discussing the events of the day.

He first had academic work published at the age of 22, then still an undergraduate, and has been cited by a wide range of publications: from CNN, the Huffington Post, AllThingsDigital, The Atlantic Wire and CBS News.

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RE: Judge denies Google's witness complaint in Microsoft-Motorola dispute
neo61322 31st Aug
Thanks for your update and sharing the information with us
vintage snapback hats
0 Votes
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Google Claim #1: We are open source
Google Claim #2: We treat all our partners equally
Google Claim #3: We are not infringing on any patents
Googles Action #1: Closed the source
Glogles Action #2: Buy the partner in the middle of the patent dispute and then says Microsoft can't reveal anything to its own subsidiary.

About right?
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A little off, I think
William Farrell 17th Aug
@facebook@...
since Google has highly propriety source code that Google did not even share with its partners, I guess you should tweak Google Action #1 to read :Closed the rest of the source
@William Farrell

Ever heard of copyleft? It is how linux is copyrighted. Copyleft says that anyone can use, see, modify, etc. the source code for linux but any modifications or additions they make to it must also be copyrighted under the copyleft copyright. So when Google doesn't release source code that is an extension of linux then they are actually breaking the copyright that Linux is copyrighted under. What I don't understand is why no one is filing suit against Google for not releasing source code that they are legally required to release because it is under copyleft.
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@josh92
Bruizer 17th Aug
Because Google is a "Do No Evil" type of company that only has the best wishes of their subjects... I mean users at heart.

They are 100% open and transparent in all of their dealings and 100% above board.
@josh92 Without knowing what the code actually is I very much doubt the code Google have not released is Linux KERNEL code, they release that through the Android SDK. Same as the OEM's UI code and drivers, that never gets released because it's propriety and has nothing to do with Linux other than running their software/hardware on top of the Linux Kernel which Google and the OEM's release (eventually once they've stripped their UI and drivers out of it).
@facebook@...

Google's PR spin machine is playing the public for fools. Android is not open source. Android is using stolen code and violating IP. Google is dumping the product on the market for free to kill competition. Then they are trying to act like the victims in this mess. The chickens may finally be coming home to roost, but Google's PR spin machine is in full swing claiming that Apple/Microsoft/Oracle are conspiring against Android because they can't compete. Google claims they had no choice but to buy Motorola for it's patents. Anyone who believes that one...

I am not a Google hater, but it's time for the media to come down hard on this company and stop carrying water for them. It's becoming blatantly obvious that Google hasn't been honest and is trying desperately to cover up their misbehavior.
@cool8man "Misbehavior" is an understatement! Any major software company that makes an OS like Android and steals any code or Patent they want can make a cheap, good product like Android. The problem is, they are going to find out is is expensive to not play by the laws of various counties! It has already started with MS getting royalties and now Apple is rightly going for the TKO by keeping Android based products from going to market in various countries.

When google finds itself on the outside looking in after a few short years in the phone business, it will only have its search and ad money to push at people. Of coarse by then, Bing will have more market share.
@cool8man & @rmark

You guys are just ridicolous.

1: Android is open source. That means the Linux kernel, Dalvik, the default drivers, the default launcher, keyboard app, etc...
HOWEVER, most Android phones are sold with Android Market, Gmail and Maps installed. THOSE APPS are closed. NOT ANDROID! The difference is HUGE!

2: Where's the evidence for "stolen IP"?
First of all even the law does not acknowledge theft of IP. It deals with *infringement*, which is to use it without consent.
Second, there's NO evidence that any code were stolen. NONE! If you're pointing to code that looks like it just were rewritten, all those files are standard files that must work in a certain way. Like with the Linux kernel headers, even Linus Torvalds himself has said that those headers essentially are public domain, simply because they have to be if anybody want to release software that interacts with the kernel and not have release that under GPL too.
And regarding patents: Most of those patents are crap, and the judge in the Oracle case have acknowledged that some of them are weak. They might just as well all be revoked. Also, Sun did explicitly say that they were happy with Google using the Java language for Android. Sun doesn't seem to have cared about suing over IP infringement over those patents that Oracle now is suing over.

3: Yes, Google has been behaving a bit irrationally. I guess they simple never were prepared for this.

4: @rmark: Well, I've tried Bing a few times. I have no intention to waste my time on it again for a few more years. Maybe I'll try it again in 2015 if it's still around by then, it might just give me relevant results.
0 Votes
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Android Better Be Good
Robert Hahn 17th Aug
If the OEMs have to pay Microsoft to use Android, they might as well pay Microsoft to use WP7. At least Microsoft isn't competing with them (yet).
@Robert Hahn Except... since Google acquired large patent portfolio from Motorola, then OEM who leave Google, will have to pay Google for patents license?
@tatiGmail
Nope, Microsoft covers their OEMs. Microsoft is not new to this business with OEMs and ODMs unlike Google.
Set 1, game 1

Microsoft - 1
Google - 0

Note:
--------
Seed: MS - Number 1
Google - Unseeded

Seed is determinded based on patents developed inhouse.
@owlnet this case is not even heard yet and you are already claiming victory?
@tatiGmail Where have you been. Google has been on a losing road. HTC initial hearing with apple is in apples favor so far, the oracle case is in oracles favor and now this one.
Google is turning into this century's Microsoft.
@Cylon Centurion At least Google's products fit my needs better than Microsoft's! lol
@ke6gwf

Well then have fun with Google prying into your life. Lol
@Cylon Centurion

No, Apple turned into this decade's Microsoft. I haven't figured out what Google is turning into, but it sure is convoluted!

@ke6gwf

Google is prying into my life. M$ pried into my wallet, (and will also pry into my life if they ever get a decent search engine going.)

M$ charges out the butt for its products, unless they are trying to kill some competition, then they will lose billions to achieve their goals. Google gives it's products away, and we all know they will make money on the back end of search, data, and ads. Neither are angels, but Google's model is a lot better
for the average person and/or small business. I may regret it later, but right now I am rooting for Google. But bashing any of the major players in favor of another is just fanboy-ism. They all are out for obscene profits.
It appears that none of these companies is faultless in this whole mess. Although some seem to be acting in a very greedy manner.
Why don't these people stop wasting their money on legal fees and hire some great engineers that will improve the reliablity of their products and make them less amenable to hackers?
0 Votes
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They tried that..
doctorSpoc 17th Aug
@donpar@... Then Google swooped in an stole their IP that they spent 100s of thousands to 10s of millions of dollars developing..

why doesn't GOOGLE do their own R&D instead of stealing everyone's stuff?? why don't you ask that question?
@doctorSpoc What did they steal?

AFAIK the majority of the code in Android is written by members of the Open Handset Alliance, which includes Google. The only major part that isn't is the Linux kernel (AFAIK; which Google contributes to).

Or do you mean R&D as in how to make a thin, square device with a large screen?
@donpar@...

Apple created iOS and the iPhone in-house.
Microsoft created Windows Mobile and Windows Phone in-house.
Google BOUGHT Android and Motorola.

Microsoft and Apple are defending the products they created. Google is trying to get away with dumping stolen code on the market for free in an effort to kill competition. Sorry for Google that the legal system is getting in their way.
@cool8man So when Google buys things it's always theft as long as it wasn't bought from MS or Apple?

MS also don't make the hardware for the phones. And are you sure everything was developed in-house? Really sure?
Apple doesn't manufacture the majority of the electronics in their hardware, they just put most of it together.

So why are they different from Google?
0 Votes
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@cool8man

Just for the record, Microsoft did not create Windows. They copied it from the Mac, (I don't care if they won when Apple sued them, it is obviously a copy of the Mac,) and made it run on top of DOS, which they bought long before that. Apple copied the Mac interface from Xerox, so your arguments about who created what is really a silly rant. As near as I can tell, only about three people in the whole industry actually came up with an original thought. (And your post wasn't one of them. Neither is mine.)

Have a nice day.
MS getting them from google itself post acquistion would be even funnier...
@Johnny Vegas

I would fall out of my chair laughing if that happened.
The patents in question involve email syncing, so much for Googlarola's enterprise push.
0 Votes
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Google is learning the hard way that crime/theft doesn't pay.. time to pay the piper.. LMAO.. naivety to the extreme..
@doctorSpoc Where's the evidence?
(Also, patents are not under criminal law, it's under civil law, so it's not even a crime either even if it were true. And the law have never acknowledged the possibility of IP being stolen, merely being copied without permission.)
Not even Google can escape the consequences of Microsoft's hunger for dominance. Microsoft will put down any who comes close to threatening their monopoly.
@root12 And what monopoly would this be? Browsers? Ummm let's see FireFox, Chrome, and Opera are major name alternatives so no monopoly there. PC OSes? There's MacOS, Chrome OS, and variants of Linux. Oh so sorry, no monopoly there. MP3 Players? There's the iPod. Tablets? iPad, Xoom, Transformer, Galaxy Tab... Smartphones? There's the iPhone, a pile of Android based devices, Blackberry... oh wait again no monopolies there either.

So what exactly was this Microsoft monopoly you mentioned?
@athynz It's called "de facto monopoly".
It means that they have such a large market share and so much control that the competition can't compete on fair terms.

Firefox became so big because it was just too good for MS. They tried the lock-in game but failed, they could not stop it. The lock-in game backfired, and now they finally embraced TRUE web standards in IE9 because it's the only option they had left to stay relevant.

Mac still can't compete with Windows on the same terms. The availability of games is one example, most of them use Microsoft's DirectX instead of OpenGL. Mac's can't even implement it because MS would never license all of it out to them. Same with Linux, so far only the Wine project has attempted to implement DirectX, and there's no way you'll get Crysis run well on Linux (onless the game developers themselves did it, because they have the source code).

Regarding MP3 players: MS began with Zune, a long time after iPod became big. It was doomed from the beginning for obvious reasons (hint: same as why Linux have a hard time competing against Windows).

Tablets: MS have never pushed the tablets they developed. It's not an area they ever tried to dominate.

Smartphones: They DID have a near monopoly. But Android and iPhone beat them for the same reason as Firefox got big - they were too much better. Being just as good ain't enough, you have to beat them with a major margin to be able to win.

Does that answer the question?
Judging by the quadruple layering of the same content, I'd say someone needs to back off a bit on the coffee before writing:

"(1) Judge denies Google's witness complaint in Microsoft-Motorola dispute

By Zack Whittaker | August 17, 2011, 2:02pm PDT

(2) Summary: Google?s motion to block key testimony from Microsoft and Motorola?s patent dispute case has been denied. Google is said to be ?afraid? of the outcome.

(3) A U.S. judge has rejected a move by Google to block crucial testimony of a Microsoft key witness, in an ongoing patent dispute with Motorola.

(4) U.S. International Trade Commission Judge Theodore Essex earlier this week denied Google?s motion to block testimony from Robert Stevenson, an Android expert working with Microsoft."

So ... ya think 4 times in a row is enough? Get more sleep, Zack.
The thing i would love is Google ends up paying more than 15 billion for motorola (the investores have lodged a complaint against the takeover price), than motorola looses the case which means all the OEM's are directly infringing the patents, google pays millions to microsoft and even more millions to oracle and worst, HTC, Samsung and others decide not to use android as it is "too expensive" for them even when they got it for free. So how much money google is loosing..
15 billion on motorola+ penalty, my bet (500 million to microsoft and 1 billion to oracle)
android bye bye.....
IBM and Motorola patents useless ( more millions)
back to square on, a search company that sells customers data to earn revenue. happy

and doomsday clock starts ticking faster since FTC investigation and European Commision investigation are already under way, and when the big boys come knocking on the door, you know who will win
@abhi.jamwal MeeGo! *lol*

(But seriously, I really hope so.)
Sigh.. you people should get out more.. The SFS have already reviewed googles case with Android and said there is no GPL conflicts. The only code they withhold is their own... all the GPL stuff is already out.

The funny thing is that Google are trying to do what everyone kept telling them to fix. "Stop the fragmentation" they wanted a stable base for phone and tablet and didn't want the half assed 3 or 3.1 which are tablet only versions to be it.. so in order to stop manufactures from hacking honeycomb onto phones and producing a crap experience and giving all the MS/iOS fanboys around here another reason to bag them.. they stopped the release of the half assed android (gingerbread has been fully source released for ages now) until they could make a convincing 1 for all solution.

People said, Android is to fragmented. Google need to fix it asap.. so google is fixing it, and getting bagged for doing it..

If you can't win against the fanboys no matter what you do.. you may as well do what you think is best and screw the fanboys.
0 Votes
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Google: A division of Microsoft...
adornoe@... 18th Aug
If they haven't done it yet, Microsoft should consider creating a new division, called: "Competition Generated Income", where all the income they receive from Google and Apple (if any) and IBM (if any) and Oracle (if any) and from any other hardware/software maker, gets tossed in to that new division's income stack.

However, within that division, they should also have a subdivision where any of Microsoft's income is paid to other companies for the same reasons that Microsoft receives income from Google, etc.

My bet is that, that division would have a positive balance at the end of every year for Microsoft, and that could be into the many millions.
"Google is said to be afraid of the outcome."

Wow, you guys at ZDNet have taken to second generation parroting of Florian Mueller huh? If you're going to use a known biased source to get your information, the least you could do is source honestly. I.E. "According to Florian Mueller Google is afraid of the outcome". Something along those lines would at least make your bias more apparent.

And, for the love of God, fix this POS comment system!
Thanks for your update and sharing the information with us
vintage snapback hats

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