Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

By Ken Hess | July 22, 2011, 9:53am PDT

Summary: The Internet is a cold, cruel place that holds onto your words forever. Be careful of what you say, to whom you say it and the date on any article that you quote.

Linus after a right hook from Steve Jobs.

More than three years later and poor Linus still gets grief over $#!^ he said. In part, thanks to David Gewirtz’s post that time forgot referring to Linus’ comments regarding Apple’s filesystem. The post made me start thinking (always a dangerous thing to do) and I came up with the notion that Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple. He should probably stick to kernel programming. Or, use his powers to take jabs at Microsoft. But, Apple is off limits, even to Linus. And, before you raise your hackles, I’m a Linux guy but I have to draw the line at pointless Apple jabs–even ones that are three years old.

First of all, Apple’s filesystem is not ‘complete and utter crap.’ It’s built on 25-year old technology that’s stood the test of time, through multiple OS versions and a change in hardware technology culminating in a now UNIX-based architecture. Mac OS X is an amalgam of FreeBSD and NeXT. Its HFS+ filesystem isn’t ext4 but it has its own features that are pretty darn good.

HFS+ Features

Maximum number of files per filesystem: Four billion.
Supports volume sizes to 8EiB.
Supports file sizes to 8EiB.
Journaling.
UNIX file permissions and ACLs.
Transparent Compression.
Transparent Encryption.
UNIX filesystem layout.

Ext4 Features

Maximum number of files per filesystem: Four billion.
Supports volume sizes to 1EiB.
Supports file sizes to 16TiB.
Journaling.
UNIX file permissions and ACLs.
No Transparent Compression.
No Transparent Encryption.
UNIX filesystem layout.

So, you see, by comparison on some significant metrics, HFS+ is comparable to or superior to ext4. I do find it considerable overkill on the part of both that these filesystems can address more disk space than is currently available on the entire planet. As an illustration, if you could magnetically format the Moon (1 Lunabyte (LB)) and find a USB cable long enough to reach it, you could use the Moon to store your illegally downloaded MP3s, movies and porn–for everyone on Earth.

Why did Linus make such an incredibly crazy statement? Jet lag? Hangover? iPhone malfunction?

Whatever the reason, I’m sure that he’d like to retract it–especially now that multiple people have brought it back into the spotlight. Namely, David Gewirtz.

I have no beef with Apple or Linus. I’m just saying that making such comments to the Press is a very bad idea. Whether printed, recorded or blogged, those words will stay with you forever. Especially with guys like David Gewirtz around.

The only things that I ever want to hear Linus Torvalds say:

Ken, you want another beer? (Like he, or anyone, ever has to ask).
Ken, I loved your latest article/book/post/artwork/beer selection.
The new stable kernel is available.
I’m giving Ken Hess a million tax free dollars.
Hello, this is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Linux.

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Could you do Linus “Linux” Torvalds Job?

Linux’s 20th Birthday Party: LinuxCon

Breaking News: IBM Buys Linus Torvalds

Linus Torvalds Buys SCO. Monetizes Linux.

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Topics

Steve Jobs, Hook, Apple Inc., Linus Torvalds, Ken Hess

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Where the hell do you guys get these writers?

fanum 24th Apr

Thanks for the lack of facts. Anyone can complain about someone's comment, but when that guy wrote an operating system, and you are just a blogger... You may want to give them the benefit of the doubt. If there is ANYONE qualified to make that statement on the planet, Linus is top of the list.

Anyone who knows anything about file-systems will agree with Linus. EVERYONE. Fanboys who have dual-booted and think they are a tech guru because of it DO NOT COUNT AS EXPERTS! You included. Shouldn't you be covering something windows related? Your opinion stated as facts will be well accepted there.

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Sadly, Linus thinks everything he did not do is crap.

Bruizer 22nd Jul

Sad but true.

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Trully Linus Trovalds did something useful for all

Uralbas Updated - 22nd Jul

He knows more and his opinion carry more weight than that of Ken H. based on his accomplishments and the benefit he has given to humanity.

I stand by Linus Torvalds. The author of this article should be the one to heed his own words.

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I never said Linus was stupid.

Bruizer 22nd Jul

@Uralbas

But he has a very low opinion of everything any other software engineer does. I have never heard him actually compliment anothers work.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

josh92 22nd Jul

@Uralbas

There are significant short comings with HFS+ as evidenced by the fact that Apple was going to replace it a few years ago with ZFS but then had to go back on the plan because ZFS is a trademarked name (or something along those lines). Apple wouldn't have tried to replace HFS+ if it were perfectly sufficient.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

global.philosopher Updated - 24th Jul

@Uralbas I still remember when the Linux kernel did not have multi-threading. It was a good kernel then because it was stable and it is even better now but it certainly was not the best at the time. My point being is that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones because people have long memories.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Sim0nSays Updated - 24th Jul

@Uralbas

You have no way of telling whether Linus "knows more" than Ken, and as for "his accomplishments and the benefit he has given to humanity", please, he wrote an operating system kernel. Thousands of people in hundreds of different technical fields have produced comparable achievements but fortunately people usually are not so silly as to worship them like gurus. In this case if we were to attribute the "benefits to humanity" to a particular individual then they're largely thanks to Richard Stallman's copylefting efforts, without which you'd have to pay hundreds of dollars for an operating system with a Linux kernel just as you have to pay hundreds of dollars for operating systems with other kernels.

Linus is a competent geek, which is admirable up to a point. He's an expert on Linux so his opinions on filesystems do carry lots of weight. However, they can be argued against like anyone else's, and Ken provides some arguments. If you disagree with those arguments, get into the debate and dispute what he's said about HFS and ext4. But don't dismiss Ken because he's not your hero Linus. It's better to judge claims on the arguments that support or refute them; not on how shiny the person is who made them.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

YetAnotherBob 25th Jul

@Josh92

ZFS was a product of Sun Microsystems, now Oracle. It does work better for business use, but it is propitiatory. Sun talked about making it Free and Open Source, not sure if that happened.

It would have been good if Apple had adopted ZFS for their servers, but it would not be a good choice for the desktops. There is a lot of overhead to ZFS, as there is to any journaling file system. EXT4 has a minimal amount of overhead. EXT3 has none. HFS seems to be trying to compete with EXT4. Just which version the Author tried to use to compare the two is a mystery. If a new HFS were used against an old EXT4 system, then I would expect HFS to fare well. The Author seems to me to have just used Apple marketing for this article. EXT4 is a moving target. I would hope that HFS is also. But, EXT4 is the minimum journaling file system in Linux. There are at least 5 others that are more powerful, including ZFS from Oracle, and they do allow very large files on very large file systems. (We're talking petabytes and exabytes here!) So, all the article is saying is that Apples best is comparable to Linux worst.

Not something I would want to brag about, and not a worry to anyone running Linux. On my last Linux install, I just used EXT3. It is more recoverable than the old EXT2, and also faster. But, it isn't as safe as EXT 4. I now would use EXT4. It's limits are beyond my hard drive anyway. If I had a real industrial scale very large hard disk array, I would use a different file system.

But that's just me.

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comprehension?

Shinsengumi 25th Jul

@Uralbas

I have a feeling you didn't comprehend the article. What is it you think you read?

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Rob.sharp@... 25th Jul

@Bruizer

And if Linus read this article he'd say what a waste of space and time! I'd agree with that!

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

mrswilliamson 1st Oct

@rob.sharp@... Yes I agree Get a DJ
Lyrics Free

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

YetAnotherBob 25th Jul

@Bruizer

Actually Linus is on record as saying that all software and operating systems are crap, but that some (Linux) are less crappy than others.

So, Linus thinks that everything he or anyone else did with computers is crap.

Many people believe he is correct. Every time Apple or Microsoft brings out a product update, they are really agreeing with Linus.

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Linus Doesn't Phrase Things Delicately, but...

CFWhitman 25th Jul

@Bruizer
Linus doesn't phrase things delicately (he could use some more tact), but HFS+ really does have serious shortcomings for use with a modern BSD based, POSIX compliant system like OS X. That's why Apple has expressed interest in replacing it. Certain legacy support and technical issues make this a difficult thing to do, however. I think eventually Apple will bite the bullet and get rid of HFS+.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@CFWhitman

I should hope Apple does replace HFS+ - you would think that progress of technology results in new and better ways of doing things.

HFS+ grew out of HFS which grew out of the original flat file directory structure on the Mac.

Have a look at what HFS offered when it was introduced that now is essential, yet at the time was not provided by other directory structures.

The OS is an evolutionary process.

Apple I am sure would have liked to use ZFS. Investigate real reasons why they didn't - rather than the wild rumours spouted here by some.

Of course HFS+ has some shortcomings, it is also evolving.

Name a directory structure that has no shortcomings!!!

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

rparker009 25th Jul

@Bruizer .
But the desktop over lay called osx is crap

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@rparker009

Yeah - It's so crappy that it lets me post responses to your perfect world.

It is a great UI for all the right reasons - sorry if you do not know that.

Your assertion of crap obviously means your opinion is valid and we should all stop using it because you called it crap. Deep technical analysis like you have provided is hard to find on the internet.

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This entry is ****

ZazieLavender Updated - 25th Jul

Please. Grow up and let $417 go already. If anybody needs to shut up it's whiny bloggers like you.

HFS+ has all of 3 things over ext4. Whoopti-friggin-do.
By the way, 2 of those are not even necessary. Who needs compression in this day and age?! And Encryption? Does your typical Mac user even have a frigging idea what that actually IS?

At least Linus has a sense of friggin humor. Bloggers like you and David Gewirtz are worthless. Your opinions are often unnecessary. It's fine to mention that "Hey I disagree with ___" in passing, but you take and make these hate pieces which are just utter crap.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

roodtjan 25th Jul

@ZazieLavender You'll be surprised at who typical Mac users are these days. Quite a few that I know have coded their own OS kernels, have extensive knowledge of Unix and other systems, have worked on large app development and have actually used computers to do real work after all of that. Many started out in the 1980's and they know their stuff, hardware and software alike. And they are fierce critics of Apple too on many topics, myself included. However, we do give credit where credit is due, because we have the experience behind us. Now let's have good debate on where the next OS should go in a positive manner.

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Maybe he shouldn't even take jabs at MS

William Pharaoh Updated - 22nd Jul

until he creates something the majority of people want to use?

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

explodingwalrus 22nd Jul

@William Pharaoh Linus mainly concentrates on the Kernel, it's up to the distro builders to make something people want to use, and many people don't actually need to use Windows, they just don't know yet. For me the only thing Linux lacks is the support of game makers and Adobe.

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I like distros.

Userama 22nd Jul

@explodingwalrus
Especially those big rotating balls with all the little mirrors on them.

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I have nothing against Linus

otaddy 22nd Jul

@explodingwalrus We all have our opinions and sometimes we make fools of ourselves.. But overall I think Linus is a good guy, it's the FOSS crowd and the loons who give Linux a bad name.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

tonymcs@... Updated - 24th Jul

@explodingwalrus

Yep the only things Linux lacks is users, games, applications, a decent development environment and the ability to produce one standard UI. While the Apple *nix version has some lipstick on that pig, Linux just can't seem to make it's mind up.

It's a hobbyist's wet dream, a hidden embedded OS for simple devices (everytime my PVR stuffs up I scream "bloody Linux") and a web server without bells and whistles.

However, as a sophisticated OS that the majority of people would want to use, it fails dismally and has for the last 20 years. It's the little engine that thought it could, but couldn't.

Linux has already found its uses, a pity you can't see that.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

mattchewie 24th Jul

@tonymcs - Linux has made up its mind. Its about empowering its user base with choice. I can run it on what ever hardware, whatever UI, desktop server, toaster...it doesn't matter.

I own a FUZE mp3 player and trying to find an media player that would allow me to have a library and also manage the content on that device was IMPOSSIBLE. When I went to the community I was just asked "whats wrong with iTunes? I said I didn't like it and I don't own an iPod. The answer then given, "Well iTunes is the best and so are iPods so just go buy one".

The writing is on the wall, Apple is soon to be a LOCKED garden and embracing the ideals that they told us was horrible back in the 80s

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

mattchewie 24th Jul

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

YetAnotherBob 25th Jul

@explodingwalrus

Game makers are slowly coming.

Game makers don't really pay much attention to a platform until it gets to around 5% market share for smaller houses, and 10% for the majors. It's a question of market earning the porters income plus profit.

Apple is there now. Linux is just now getting attention from the smaller houses. This means that the Game Makers have recognized Linux desktop share as over 5%.

Wait another 5 years, Linux will have most of the then current titles available.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Jeremy-UK 22nd Jul

@William Pharaoh Yeah, because you've not used anything with a Linux Kernel today have you?

Oh wait, you probably have.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

przemoli 22nd Jul

@William Pharaoh
Android?
Google servers?
Facebook servers?
....

List is loooong. Non existing Linux is myth.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Pete "athynz" Athens 22nd Jul

@przemoli How many people are knowingly using Linux when they use Android devices, Google, or Facebook? Outside of those who keep up with tech? Fact is in this case Torvalds should have just kept his trap shut but - like Linux Geek - he can't seem to keep from slipping in FUD about the competition.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@przemoli

My servers.

Still think it is inferior to OS X though.

Linux is not a bad choice for a server - for a user it's stupid quite frankly.

@przemoli - I agree but I also think that knowing what the kernel is should be irrelevant.

OS X is great because it is a decent Unix implementation - yet the user does not need to know.

iOS meant that people were making phone calls from a Unix kernel, and using large parts of OS X - and they did not need to know.

FUD by Linus - yes definitely.

Linux and Android largely appeal to a mistaken sense of stickin it to the man.

This is the same sort of mistake that many Mac users made early on when they thought they were stickin it to IBM.

Anyone who thinks that android is freedom is somewhat naive. I have never seen a bigger monopoly than Google, nor one I trust less.

Linux is somewhat less tied to a company - but seriously it is not the right choice.

I mostly use Apple hardware - and some Apple software, I never find myself stuck with having to purchase from iTunes - I use their online content minimally - and I am not trapped into Apple content at all.

I choose all products and their sources based on cost-efficiency.

I have used Linux servers - and in some cases will again.

I have used Windows - and will not do so unless there is an application where it is the only choice. I will probably be purchasing a windows 7 licence soon as I keep a running windows system to keep my knowledge up to date though. (yes I have access to win 7 now also)

The advantage of Linux was cost, and that advantage is somewhat diminishing. The other advantage was having more than one platform was safety over any issues affecting the whole server array.

So yes, Linux is in many places, and yes it is invisible - invisibility is good.

There are some places where I really wish Apple was - and it isn't. My Samsung TV - nice features, great TV, bad interface on the smartHUB, and some of the smartHUB apps such as YouTube. By bad I mean - an effort to do things.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

BrentRBrian 25th Jul

@William Pharaoh The majority DO use Linux, every day.

Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Android, entertainment systems, mainframes ... the list goes on.

I would argue that Microsoft is used LESS on a daily basis than Linux ... being as almost everyone running Windows uses at least one of the services mentioned.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

YetAnotherBob 25th Jul

@BrentRBrian

Good point, but a minor correction. Last time I checked, Yahoo and Hotmail were running BSD Unix. Microsoft tried putting Hotmail on Windows servers right after they bought it. but it crashed so badly they had to put it back up on BSD.

For your list of Linux sites, you could have also added E-bay, Skype and Pay Pal.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@ YetAnotherBob

You may like to check what desktop OS is used by E-Bay, Skype and PayPal?

Skype I think will be windows soon - no matter what they are now.

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Linus is right

Linux Geek 22nd Jul

OSX filesystem is ?complete and utter crap' as well as Apple's DRM.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

jmiller1978 22nd Jul

@Linux Geek

Apple's DRM? Didn't realize Apple had their own DRM. The music in iTunes is DRM-free and has been for a while now. Content providers still require Apple to have DRM on TV shows and movies because that's just how Hollywood rolls.

As far as the filesystem goes, looks like HFS+ has some nice features ext4 doesn't. whoops

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

rich3800 24th Jul

@jmiller1978

You may also say that ext4 has some nice features HFS+ doesn't.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

AdnanPirota 22nd Jul

@Linux Geek
God bless you ...

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@AdnanPirota

Yep - god bless all followers of Linus.

Why not after all worship Linux.

Pity Linux geek doesn't have a clue what he is talking about isn't it?

HFS+ works very well - having years of experience with it on many, many devices.

There was a time when the OS had a few issues with directory structure corruption, that was a long time ago, not very common, and I still found Macs more productive and reliable than the alternatives.

I should also mention that I have worked extensively with Windows and run high availability server farms using Mac OS, MachTen Unix & Linux.

( I add that because some idiot always likes to pretend that their ignorance of Apple equally applies to Apple users and Apple users must somehow be ignorant for having used superior technology.)

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Apple (Jobs) was actually the one to make music DRM-free -- even though ...

DeRSSS 22nd Jul

@Linux Geek: ... labels forced Apple to include DRM before.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Pete "athynz" Athens 22nd Jul

@Linux Geek You do realize that the best thing YOU can do for Linux is to not talk about it... because every time you do you also cannot help but slip in some easily disproven FUD about Apple or Microsoft. Like your claim that Apple has DRM...

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

A.Sinic 23rd Jul

@athynz
Apple's DRM is PlayFair, and it is still used on things like movies. There is more to life than MP3s.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Pete "athynz" Athens 24th Jul

@A.Sinic And your point is? The DRM is NOT Apple's decision to put into place as one the most vocal and least intelligent ABAer/ABMer is claiming. This is actually the least amount of FUD Linux Geek has tried to spread about Apple or Microsoft.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Raid6 22nd Jul

@Linux Geek

People who hate and biatch about DRM only want to get their "content" for free. No doubt Linux Geek would prefer to steal the work of others than pay for it.

DRM has its place. I for one PAY for that which I like. Oh, except for decent open source of which there is plenty.

On the other hand, I often $upport good open source software as well happy

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

PatrickEB 23rd Jul

@Raid6

Actually the people who 'biatch' about DRM are those who would like to play the things they BOUGHT on the devices they OWN.

Sony etc would have restricted movies and music to their own devices were it not for hackers and crackers, FOSS supporters, lobbyists and lawyers ensuring that there was the right to do so.

DRM is NOT something that was created for your benefit, it was purely for the movie/music companies to assist them in restricting your ability to watch and listen on devices of your choosing and thus give them more ability to ensure you used devices built by companies which they owned or had shares in and deals with.

Next time, check the license on your camera (digital/video) and you will see that you are NOT allowed to use it to make money from the things that YOU recorded and edited.

http://www.osnews.com/story/23236/

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

A.Sinic Updated - 23rd Jul

@Linux Geek
Apple's DRM (PlayFair) was removed from their MP3s only due to pressure from Amazon offering unprotected MP3s. Both Apple and the labels wanted DRM but for different reasons. For the labels it was to stop copying, for Apple it was to keep people using Apple products.

DRM interoperability is coming, but Apple don't like that game because it means you can buy stuff and then get a non-Apple device to play it on. That's why they don't like www.uvvu.com etc.

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

richardw66 25th Jul

@A.Sinic

Apple introduced DRM because otherwise the record industry would not sign up to iTunes - and there would be no online music sales.

Apple started online music sales - as opposed to outright theft of the work of other people.

Apple has since that time promoted the move away from DRM.

Apple has always allowed no DRM content and even if they did not say it loudly they have always made the use of it as simple as possible.

Since much of the content on iTunes is now DRM free due to pressure by Apple - how can your argument make any sense at all?

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

explodingwalrus 22nd Jul

Correct me if i'm wrong but you cannot run OSX in an encrypted HDD, whilst with Linux you can encrypt the entire OS's drive.

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You are wrong.

Bruizer 22nd Jul

@explodingwalrus

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#filevault2

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RE: Linus Torvalds needs to shut up about Apple

Peter Perry 22nd Jul

@Bruizer While you can do this, many an Apple Store Genius (Mac Genius) has said it is too intensive for everyday use. Most Full disc Encryption does impact performance (even Safeguard Easy)!

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