Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Mono-mania: It's risky business

By | October 15, 2009, 6:00am PDT

Summary: The Open Source Mono project is controversial because it is a re-implementation of Microsoft’s .NET technology. It’s time for Miguel De Icaza’s Mono implementation — and applications that use it — to be moved into the “risky” category, until the patent situation is deemed truly safe to use by default in Free Software.

[The opinions expressed here are mine alone, and not those of Google, Inc. my current employer.]

There has been a lot of press recently about the Open Source “Mono” project, arguing about whether it is safe to use by the Free Software community, and even comparing it to the project I work on, Samba. Given all this controversy, I thought I might as well write down my own thoughts on the matter, and even try and change a few minds in the bargain.

Mono is controversial as it is a re-implementation of Microsoft’s .NET technology, in much the same way as Samba is a re-implementation of Microsoft’s Server Message Block (SMB) file sharing protocol. The genesis of each project and how they have developed over the years is somewhat different, however.

Samba was initially written by the original developers to “scratch our own itch.” It was code that was specifically useful to us, and originally had no wider purpose than that. We have gotten a little more ambitious over the years, but one of our primary purposes is still to write code that’s useful to us (or to me at least :-). Witness our development of a UNIX variant of the SMB protocol, which has no use for Windows clients or servers, but is a great way of networking Linux boxes together.

Miguel De Icaza [at right], the original creator of the Mono project, would argue the same for Mono. Miguel was one of the original creators of the Gnome Linux desktop code, and personally wrote some of the large Gnome desktop applications in C. I once asked Miguel (while we were stuck on a bus together traveling to some godforsaken LinuxWorld event in Boston) why he decided to create Mono, which re-implements Microsoft’s C# language and the runtime environment that goes with it, “It’s simple,” he replied, “I’m fed up of writing memory garbage collection code for C applications. There had to be an easier way to write Linux desktop applications than that.”

He does have a point. Writing complex graphical user interface (GUI) applications in C or even C++ is hard, with many opportunities for memory corruption, memory leaks or security errors. The question is, why recreate a Microsoft technology for this, when Sun’s Java already existed at the time the Mono project was started, and solved many of the same problems?

Miguel and many others argue that .NET and Mono is simply better technology. It’s true that .NET is a later design than Java, as it was instigated after Microsoft was unable to wrest control of Java from Sun by creating a Windows-specific version of Java (a lawsuit promptly settled that). Also, at the time Mono was started in 2001, Sun had yet to release Java under a Free Software license, forcing Free Software developers to have to re-implement the Java technology if they wanted to use it openly.

But I’m not buying that excuse. Miguel and the other Mono developers are smart enough to have made Java do what they needed, even if it would have required creating Gnome-specific wrappers for the Gnome GUI. After all, this is exactly what they’re doing for C# and Mono. No, I’m guessing it was simply the old Open Source/Free Software disease of being unable or unwilling to cooperate with existing developers who are doing something similar to what you have in mind. Much easier to start your own project to do something similar; after all, that way you have complete control over it. And if you believe that by developing Mono you will get Microsoft Windows .NET developers to move their code over to Linux then you can even claim the moral high ground.

But the problem is that Mono is dangerous for Free Software. The heart of the matter is, as usual, software patents. Microsoft have patents on the technology inside .NET, and since the TomTom lawsuit, Microsoft have shown they are not averse to attacking Free Software using patent infringement claims. Microsoft have tried to allay some fears by putting the .NET specification under their Microsoft Community Promise.

Miguel hailed this as the solution to all the patent problems with Mono. But this promise is simply not good enough to base a language environment implementation upon. After all, if the rug is pulled out from under that implementation by the threat of patent infringement, you don’t just lose the implementation itself, you lose all the programs that depend upon it. That’s a really dangerous situation for Free Software programs to be in. The Free Software Foundation wrote a good analysis of the problems.

But my basic issue with the Microsoft Community Promise is that Miguel doesn’t have to depend on it like everyone else does. Miguel’s employer, Novell, has a patent agreement with Microsoft that exempts Mono users from Microsoft patent aggression, so long as you get Mono from Novell. Miguel takes pains to point this out. This is not a level playing field, or software freedom for all. This is a preferred supplier trying to pretend there is no problem. Sure there isn’t a problem, for them. If it isn’t good enough for Miguel, why is it good enough for other developers ?

I’d like to contrast this with the agreement that Andrew Tridgell negotiated with Microsoft for Samba over the very same issues of software patents covered in a specification. You can read an overview of the agreement.

I can’t say anything better than Andrew’s own words so I won’t try, I’ll just call attention to them here: “For me, one of the key things about free software and patents is that we are all in the same boat. It is vitally important to the continued success of the community development model that one part of the community does not enter into an agreement which gives some people patent protection while leaving other people out in the cold. That is why I was so opposed to the patent agreements recently entered into by Novell, Xandros and other companies.”

This agreement is available to all willing to affiliate with the Protocol Freedom Information Foundation (PFIF) and provides implementors with a limited number of Microsoft patents that may be asserted, and clear and timely warning if new patents are added by Microsoft.

This is at the heart of why Samba is different from the Mono project, at least in terms of how we view software freedom for all, and how we dealt with patent threats in the implementation. If Miguel and the Mono folks had been so careful when negotiating with Microsoft, and just a little less excited about the cool new technology, then I think they’d have done their users a better service.

Lest I get tarred with a reputation as a hopeless Luddite, afraid of new technology just because Microsoft developed it, I do want to say that I think Mono is pretty amazing work. If Microsoft could see their way to issuing a patent promise that was acceptable to Free Software developers, I’d happily see it as a core part of any Linux (or GNU/Linux if you wish) distribution. I actually do use a Mono application to index all my personal photographs, the very capable F-Spot. I prefer it to the alternative of Google Picasa because at least F-Spot is Free Software. (and yes I’ve reported bugs in F-Spot by looking at the code.)

But if I had to give up F-Spot due to patent threats I could, because all the picture meta-data it indexes is stored inside the photographs themselves. So even if I lost the use of F-spot I wouldn’t lose any photograph data, just the time needed to re-tag and re-sort the photos. Annoying, but not a fatal loss.

Just like installing programs to play the patented MP3 format, this is a risk some Linux users are willing to take. But this should be the user’s decision, not an accident of it being a default application in a distribution. Most distributions have a way to manage patent risk, by separating out the Free Software that may have patent problems into separate downloadable repositories that are not enabled by default. People in counties with software patents and willing to take the patent risk can then enable the repository and download the patent-covered software themselves. I think it is time for the Mono implementation and applications that use it to be moved into the “risky” category, until the patent situation around it is deemed to be truly safe to use by default in Free Software.

Microsoft isn’t playing games any more by merely threatening to assert patents. Real lawsuits have now occurred and the gloves are off against Free Software. Moving Mono and its applications to the “restricted” repositories is now just plain common sense.

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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
muku123 3rd Feb 2010
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M$ must give away its patents
Linux Geek 15th Oct 2009
If M$ want to have its technolgies adopted by FOSS it must give up all its patents and GPLed the code.
Until then we must stay away from any code that resembles M$ technologies and support Stallman and FSF in their fight against software tirany.
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You misspelled tyranny
Rob Oakes 15th Oct 2009
I think that Stallman has done wonderful work. I use open source almost exclusively. I even run an open source project (https://launchpad.net/time-drive). But on this topic, he is wrong (and by extension Mr. Allison).

If Linux (and the community in general) stayed away from anything that resembles Microsoft technology, Linux would be unusable. There would be no .doc filters in OpenOffice, no Linux servers running C#, and no way for businesses to move their custom .Net applications off of Windows. Nor do I think that Linux would be safe from patent infringement claims. We lose interoperatbility and gain ... absolutely nothing.

I agree with Linus on this one. Microsoft hatred and its childish public displays (M$, are you kidding?) is a disease. Paranoia is never healthy and is not a viable survival strategy.

In fact, Mono is one of the least likely technologies to be challenged. First, it's an actual, bonefied standard with international certification and everything. Second, there are agreements in place that make cover its use. Microsoft has given permission to Novell, and Novell has explicity stated that they see that permission as applicable to the entire community. Were Microsoft to violate those agreements, it would not doubt result in lawsuits and damages awarded to Novell. It might even be risking thermonuclear patent holocaust against the Sun/Oracle, Novell, IBM block. Aint. Gonna. Happen.

If anything, Microsoft has gone out of its way to promote it! I know this might be difficult for you to understand, but they want C# in use on Linux servers and C# applications on the desktop! It results in their continued relevance.

So please, be a little mature about this. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and make your mess in the corner.
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Missing the point.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
I don't say stay away from Microsoft technology (that would be somewhat ironic due to what I work on every day happy.

I also don't say Microsoft is evil.

Novell have *NOT* stated that the permission they have is applicable to the entire community, stop spreading this falsehood !

Read it from the horse's mouth here:

http://groups.google.com/group/tiraniaorg-blog-comments/browse_thread/thread/2a07b8b50038d8c8/2429b33859cf05c0#2429b33859cf05c0

"* What about microsoft patents? If I create my own linux distro or I use a distro that is not mainstream or just doesn't have a deal with the daemon.. err Microsoft.. like Novell has.. Will I have to suffer the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or developing Moonlight?

Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include patent coverage.

Miguel"

Jeremy.
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Thanks for the thoughtful comments
Rob Oakes Updated - 15th Oct 2009
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. My mini-rant regarding "avoiding of all MS technology" weren't actually directed at you, but at "Linux Geek." I get tired of the anti-MS attitude. They're a big company, their software runs a lot of stuff. Open source has to interoperate. Which is why I am actually quite grateful for the work that you do on Samba. It lets me run a mixed Windows/Mac/Linux shop (Ubuntu, BTW, should anyone accuse me of being a Novell patsy).

Right ... with platitudes out of the way. I agree totally that this topic is complicated, as evidenced by the comments you reference. However, in that statement, de Icaza isn't referencing Mono, but rather Moonlight. I've been talking explicitly about the Mono engine and C#. I view Moonlight as a largely consumer technology, and frankly, I just don't give a damn about it. Mono, however, is core to the software that I run daily.

Now that my nits are picked ... my apologies if I am in error, but this is a talk back entry. Double and triple checking facts with links to outside sources is the type of work that gets done for scholarly articles, public statements and blog posts. In informal debate, speaking from the cuff is entirely appropriate, which I've done. I'm not an expert in the Novell/Microsoft pledges. I'm largely trying to remember things read months ago. I am not deliberately trying to grind an ideaoloogical axe. Not that I'm conceding anything, mind you wink

I'm also at work and have already expended more time than I can afford to this discussion. I would, however, be interested in continuing it. But not like this.

This topic is important enough that it requries properly researched and referenced counter point. I would be happy to do so and provide it to you. But to do so properly would require more time than I currently have.

If this interests you, please let me know. You can just indicate here in the talk backs and I will get in touch with you. This is clearly a topic that we both feel strongly about, but it deserves more respectful treatment.

Cheers,

Rob Oakes
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I'm happy to chat offline.
JeremyAllison Updated - 15th Oct 2009
Although I don't always have a log of email bandwidth (we just shipped Samba 3.3.9 today and I've spent the last two weeks in bug triaging).

Send me email, I'm easy to find, just search for me on Google happy.

Jeremy.
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Here we go aggain....
Ceridan 15th Oct 2009
Great Linux "The Paladin" Geek restart the rehashing of one of his extremist faction leader.


First, please fix your keyboard... because you look quite childish.


Second, MS is a for-profit compagny therefore it's logical that they want to make profit. However, it would be interesting that MS release the .net framework as an opensource alternative to Java(will probably never happend but still it would be intersting).

Third: Stallman is, imo, just some old geezer that is so intranched in his hate of microsoft that he sees conspiracy everywhere.

Finally... I wonder, are you left or right wing... because some of your talkback responses make me think that your far right wing yet as soon as MS is involved your far left wing...
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I am the mainstream
Linux Geek 15th Oct 2009
Finally... I wonder, are you left or right wing... because some of your talkback responses make me think that your far right wing yet as soon as MS is involved your far left wing...
As you say, some label me far left or far right.
That means that I am an independet right in the center, like most Americans!
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That, you are not...
BFD 15th Oct 2009
I and quite a few others here would disagree with you on whether you are center or mainstream on this topic.

Then again, we all know it is hard to be objective about oneself.
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Maybe in a crowd of one you are mainstream.
No_Ax_to_Grind 15th Oct 2009
But not in any real world I know of.
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Is open source giving up the patent commons?
No_Ax_to_Grind 15th Oct 2009
Naw, didn't think so.
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
midcapwarrior@... 15th Oct 2009
Sorry, seems a little disingenous from a guy who depends upon google for his bread and butter and does linus on company time. Didn't google go after a foss company for using there technology forcing them to create a work around?
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ISO9000 certified FUD
LBiege 15th Oct 2009
This article came from the same source used to claim Linux low adoption rate was b/c of a mass conspiracy.
as does the current linux kernel so I'm not getting a wedgie over this...

Thanks for the great work Mono and Moonllight teams!
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Agreed
Rob Oakes 15th Oct 2009
Thanks to Mono, I've been able to largely move away from Windows on my servers. Moreover, C# is a much nicer language to deal with than C++ or even Java. It's more or less clear that Microsoft will never go after Mono for patent infringement.

Novell has clearly stated that they view Microsoft's commitments as applying to all of Linux. As a result, if Microsoft were to go after other Linux providers -- say ... Canonical -- it would not only destroy their relationship with Novell, but mihgt even touch off the patent equivalent of thermonuclear holocaust.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.
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Novell does not speak for Microsoft.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
"Novell has clearly stated that they view Microsoft's commitments as applying to all of Linux. "

This is simply not true.

Read some of the statements on Mono and Moonlight. It's "safe" if you get it from Novell, not otherwise. That's the whole point of the patent deal.

Jeremy.
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Then let Microsoft speak for themselves
Rob Oakes Updated - 15th Oct 2009
I have read the statements and I've also read the news coverage, including that provided here on ZdNet. Microsoft has been very clear about their .Net and Mono intentions. As recently as July, they were re-iterating: "We won't sue over Mono or .Net related tech."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/07/mono_microsoft_promise/

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-issues-patent-promise-dispels-mono-concerns.ars

They've even gone so far as to add it to their Community Promise. The community promise is a non-discriminatory legal framework that protects against legal action by Microsoft. Technically, Microsoft *could* sue an entity like Ubuntu for distributing the Mono framework or applications, but that is extremely unlikely.

1.) It would shatter important collaborative relationships.
2.) It would result in counter suits by both partners and large corporations.
3.) It would alienate their most important user base: enterprises.

Stallman has done a great deal to help the advancement of Open Source and I respect. Nonetheless, he has a few loose screws, and this is one of them.
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Just pointing to the community promise
JeremyAllison Updated - 15th Oct 2009
All your links are just pointing to third-party reporting on Microsoft's Community promise. You didn't even bother to link to an actual Microsoft web site ? How is this Microsoft speaking for themselves ? (unless they secretly own TheRegister or Arstechnica. Note for the humor impaired, this is a joke happy ).

Did you even read the article ? The Community promise is not good enough to base Free Software applications on, and doesn't say what you claim it's saying here. Have you actually read it ?

At least you understand that Microsoft "*could* sue an entity like Ubuntu for distributing the Mono framework or applications", community promise notwithstanding.

I guess a few months ago your comment would have been "Microsoft *could* sue an entity like Tom Tom for distributing the Linux kernel, but that is extremely unlikely."

Ring any bells for you ?

Jeremy.
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Have you read it?
njoho 15th Oct 2009

For everyone's benefit, its here: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx

You say: "At least you understand that Microsoft "*could* sue an entity like Ubuntu for distributing the Mono framework"

Microsoft says: "The CP applies to developers, distributors, and users of Covered Implementations without regard to the development model that created such implementations, or the type of copyright licenses under which they are distributed, or the business model of distributors/implementers."

It seeems to me like you're just scaremongering for the sake of your own political agenda here.

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But if a promise is not good enough...
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
What good does it do if it applies to all ?

FYI. The "*could* sue an entity like Ubuntu for distributing the Mono framework" was Rob Oakes comment, not mine.

Jeremy.
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Yes, I've read it
Rob Oakes Updated - 15th Oct 2009
Yes, I've read it and I disagree. Microsoft has created a legally binding scenario where it is against their interests to sue others over Mono. That is about as thorough a guarantee as you can get in corporate America.

I actually feel more comfortable going with Mono than I do with Java. Even though it is released under a completely open source license. Java only has a single copywrite holder, Sun. And Sun was recently acquired by Oracle. It is extremely unlikely that Oracle, as the new copyright holder, will change the license; but they *could*. It might even be an easier route than what Microsoft would follow by taking action against Ubuntu.

Consider: 1) Microsoft isn't the Mono copyright holder. 2) They have not one, but *two* agreements with Novell saying they won't sue. 3) Sun/Novell/IBM hold massive patent portfolios for precisely this eventuality.

Yes, Microsoft *could* sue Ubuntu, but that way lies the patent apocalypse. Microsoft isn't stupid, and they aren't about to destroy the ecosystem that they rely on for their survival. The odds of this happening are so small that they might as well be zero.
___________________________________

And I chose to link to Ars and the Register because, as third party sources, they typically include additional comments to put the entire scenario in perspective. Both are reputable and there is no reason to accuse them of spreading MS propaganda. Nor is there a reason to challenge their analysis of the events.
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Better promises are possible.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
"That is about as thorough a guarantee as you can get in corporate America."

That's not true. Java is now available under GPLv2.

GPLv2 contains section 7:

" 7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent
infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues),
conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or
otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not
excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot
distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this
License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you
may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent
license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by
all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then
the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to
refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."

Which means even if Oracle decide to change the license for all future versions of Java, the existing Java under the GPL can still be maintained and extended by the Free Software community.

Microsoft doesn't have to go that far, all I'm asking for is a similar promise to the one they gave Samba. They even claim patents in that - it's just that the list is bounded and the patents are explicitly listed and so can be worked-around.

Jeremy.


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APIs are not patentable
honeymonster 15th Oct 2009
So the patent "fear" is basically FUD.

Mono replicates some Microsoft API - but not their
implementation. Software patents covers "working
machines".

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They haven't patented API's
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
Someone is not paying attention happy. Patents cover abstract ideas in software and separate implementation is no defense.

From the Red Hat amicus brief in the Bilski case:

"As a result, there are now hundreds of thousands of patents on abstract subject matter, and tens of thousands of new patents are now granted each year for
software and business methods that were previously excluded from patentable subject matter."

Mono is covered by the Microsoft patents, else Novell couldn't have included it in the patent agreement, could they ?

Jeremy.
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Disingenuous
honeymonster 15th Oct 2009
The basis for patenting software is when the
software forms part of a working machine.
Granted, this may be a very abstract machine,
but nonetheless.

First we have to separate C# from the APIs. C#
is an Ecma/ISO standard. A prerequisite for
becoming a standard was that Microsoft agreed
to license any software patents on a fair and
non-discriminatory basis. Novell got it for
free which means that charging anyone else
would be discriminatory. C# is indeed more open
than Java (which is not standardized by a
recognized body). And it is guaranteed free
from Microsoft litigation.

Then to the APIs. Mono does implement more than
what is specified by the ISO standard. Some
base/utility classes along with higher level
APIs such as winforms/ASP.NET etc.

An API is not patentable. And Mono is a clean
room implementation. There is no greater risk
that Mono infringes on Microsoft patents than a
Java implementation of a similar functionality
(e.g. Swing/JSP/JSF).

" Mono is covered by the Microsoft patents,
else Novell couldn't have included it in the
patent agreement, could they ?"

Come on, Jeremy, you are smarter than that. The
Microsoft/Novell agreement was a general
agreement which exempted all Novell software
from Microsoft patents. It is not a proof,
admission or even a suggestion that Mono
infringes on any such patents. Claiming so is
merely spreading FUD.
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
super_J 15th Oct 2009
I still see no legal guarantee that Microsoft won't sue over it's patents on SMB. In the link I see a lot bold statements about sharing and community and free software. But nothing legally binding that ensures MS can't sue over SMB.

By contrast, C# and CLR are ECMA standards (with RAND promise), and Mono is declared by Microsoft as under it's Community promise.

No complete legally binding guarantees there, but because of those things Mono seems less legally risky than Samba.

There is a ton of stuff in Linux, OpenOffice, Gnome, KDE, Samba, et all, that have legal risk due to patents. Mono comes with legal risk, but it seems like reasonable risk.

And, even though I'm a Java developer too, I really really like C#, and think it's overall better than Java. And Mono gives C#/CLR portability, and interoperability.
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READ THE ARTICLE !
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
Try some basic comprehension.

This agreement with Microsoft:

http://www.samba.org/samba/PFIF/PFIF_agreement.pdf

*Explicitly* limit's Microsoft's ability to sue over patents.

Here is *THE* patent they can sue Samba over SMB.

10/021,3922006-0026165-A1

No others, by legally binding agreement. We don't infringe that patent by the way....

Where is the legally binding list for Mono ?

Jeremy.
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
petem@... 15th Oct 2009
I Agree With Jeremy... and i guess no one here remembers the day that MS made the promise.. they specifically said it covered any implementation of the "SPEC" the was approved.. meaning their promise DID NOT cover mono as implemented..(for anyone other then NOVELL) miguel came out praising MS and in the same breath stated that they (the mono crew) would work on splitting out what was covered and not covered... SO... if you had gone out and implemented mono guess what... you ARE NOT covered... well.. that is unless you went begging to novel..


and one question.. how are you going to prove that you got mono from novell... does one have to contact novell to get some kind of paperwork to show you officially got it from them.. if you run ubuntu.. with mono.. are you covered..? did ubuntu get the required paper work from novell.. are they authorized to distribute mono... as implemented.. what will break if you implement mono in a way that is 100% covered by the MS promise..? will F-spot still work..? tomboy..? has miguel given a time line as to when a fully covered mono implementation is due...?


as a single developer.. you may not be worried about MS lawyers coming and knocking on your door... but as a distribution like red hat and ubuntu why would you risk your distro or better said , your business... there is nothing wrong with moving mono to the restricted repos.. if you want it, it is your to get.. but to FORCE it on the user by default it irresponsible..
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
You claim that real lawsuits are now happening around
Linux. Other than the Tom Tom case (where Tom Tom
threated Microsoft with patent lawsuit for over a year,
and Microsoft then pulled the trigger on them first) what
exactly is your evidence of this clear danger?
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Sure
Tim Patterson 15th Oct 2009
Recently when the cowards at MS unloaded some patents hoping a troll would come along and use them against a Red Hat or Canonical or other Linux company. As a pre-emptive measure the patents were purchased by the Linux Foundation.

Unless you're clueless you would know that MS wishes to destroy Linux by any and all means.
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
Where is the legally binding list of patents that Google
owns that states that they will not sue anyone over
technologies that Google has patented or has bought from
third party companies?

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call you out
kckn4fun 15th Oct 2009
You assessment that "you're not buying" the argument that .NET is better technology than Java is inexperienced at best, and short sighted at worst.

As one who has led projects in both Java and .NET I can safely say that .NET is the superior technology hands down. Better syntax, a richer catalog of extensible functionality, wider paid support availability-- just better across the board.

Instead of letting your predisposition towards Microsoft as a competitor thwart your opinion before it leaves your mouth, trying working on that technology for a few years first.
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RE: Mono-mania: It's risky business
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
Using your logic, then clearly Samba is infringing
patents despite all of your claims as Samba was
included in the Novell/Microsoft deal.

Considering all the patents that Microsoft has on
office suites, although I do love Google's products,
there might be a day when Google is forced to remove
Google Docs from the web as they clearly infringe on
Microsoft patents on presentation programs, word
processing and spreadsheets.

Let us see Google's form data entry infringes 5819293
and 5966716 or just plain core features like 5623282.
Like graphs? License from Microsoft 5461708 as you
will need it to get that cute chart up on the screen.
Google loves HTML export of a spreadsheet, shame that
Microsoft has 6565609. Like to have more than one
sheet on the display, and use the cute "notebook"
feature (you know Sheet 1, Sheet 2 and Sheet 3).
Start shelling out those dollars because Microsoft has
the patent 5883623 that covers it.

Then again, all of the above are also infringed by
open source spreadsheets (KOffice, OpenOffice,
Gnumeric). It is left as an exercise to the reader to
do an equivalent google search on google.com/patents
for word, powerpoint and whatever else Microsoft has
been on the business of building in the last 20 years
that open source cloned or thought it might be
necessary to copy.
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Jeremy has gone radio silent.
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
Just a minute ago he was being a busy bee
addressing every post. And now that some
substance of actual patent infringements on
real programs that people are using on a daily
basis, he has gone missing in action.

Jeremy, what about you get us an official
statement from Google on what they plan on
doing with the patents they are infringing.

It just occurred to me that Google was also on
the business of distributing Open Office, so
they are also infringing on Microsoft right
from that angle as well.

Jeremey, on your reply, please articulate why
Google feels that it is OK to distribute code
that infringes on someone else's patents now
that you seem to have taken an active position
on warning the world of the dangers of patents.

It seems that if Google knows about this
infringement and is not letting the users that
are blindly downloading the software, they are
liable for the infringement that users are
incurring on.

Jeremy, what is Google's strategy to indemnify
users on patent violations on Open Office and
Google Office?
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Of course I'm silent on this.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
I'm not in a position to speak for Google around any of these issues. Talk to an official Google Public Relations person if you want responses on these issues.

I talk about things I know about, and have been involved with. Software patents around the Novell agreement is something I happen to know about happy.

Jeremy.
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You could speak out against Open Office just as
well. So when do we get the article against
Open Office?

Because you know, NOVL/MSFT agreement *does*
cover Open Office, and this is something that
you "happen to know about ".

Or the fact that your employer distributes Open
Office all of a sudden will make you shy?

So a review is in order: (a) attacking other
open source projects that your employer does
not use is Kosher; but (b) attacking open
source projects that your employer funds or
distributes causes paralysis to your
journalistic integrity? (c) Speaking about
your employer infringing on patents from the
company you are attacking is a taboo.

The Christians call this hypocrisy. Lawyers
call it conflict of interest.

There are laws about conflict of interest.
Are you aware of those Jeremy, or are you
playing with fire?

It puts ZDNet work into question. Did you get
your slot at ZDNet as a token for working for
Google?
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That's *funny*
JeremyAllison Updated - 15th Oct 2009
You think that I get paid or some other remuneration for writing for ZDnet, or this is something to do with Google ? Hahahahahaahahaha..... happy happy.

My arrangement with ZDnet is "I write stuff and offer it to them for free, if they like it they'll publish".

And it's not even written down happy. Why not try writing your own articles ? If they're good and they like them I think ZDnet might be interested, they're always looking for good new material (note I'm not speaking for ZDnet here, so I'm not promising anything on their behalf).

If you disagree with my opinions, write your own ! The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech.

Jeremy.


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Evasive much?
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
So you dedicated your entire reply to my last
paragraph, but failed to address the substance
Jeremy.

So when are we going to see you talk against
Open Office patents?

Or is this subject something that hits close to
home as you might actually be a user of Open
Office. Damn, and it was so easy to spread
fear about projects you do not care about, but
when it is a matter of something that you might
actually depend on, all of a sudden you seem to
ignore the elephant in the room.

Seems like you have two standards. One for
the things that matter to you, and one for the
things that do not matter to you.

Oops. There it is, the very definition of
hypocrisy.
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Google has a legal staff that can answer your questions. I know this as I looked them up when I was a contractor there. If there are issues, they can address them. Jeremy is an engineer (or programmer... I don't recall the internal stuff much anymore), not a lawyer!
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Jeremy is playing a lawyer on TV.
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
The problem is that Jeremy has decided to play
a lawyer on TV.

But it is OK, I have rephrased my question on
patent violations in terms of Open Office and
not Google Office, because Jeremy is hiding
behind the excuse of being just a pawn.

But in the open source world he is a leader.
So tell us Jeremy, as an open source leader,
why is Open Office kosher, but Mono is not?

Where is the patent agreement that gives Open
Office a free pass? Where is the detailed
list of patents that makes that product not a
problem, but F-Spot a potential future problem?

I cant wait for Jeremy's next evasion.
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OpenOffice belongs to Oracle (via Sun Microsystems)
B.O.F.H. Updated - 15th Oct 2009
If you have issues with Open Office (the open source spawn of Star Office, a company acquired by Sun Microsystems many years back) you should contact the legal department at Oracle (or Sun). They may have made a licensing deal with whomever held a patent. Google is not Oracle or Sun Microsystems (now owned by Oracle).
But this is exactly what Jeremy complains about
on this article. He claims that Novell got a
good deal for their users/customers, but that
the deal does not apply to others.

And just like Sun at the time cut a good deal
with Microsoft on similar terms, the terms do
not extend to OpenOffice users, it only extends
to StarOffice users (see Bruce Perens' take at
the time:
http://www.v3.co.uk/vnunet/news/2125926/perens-
hits-sun-openoffice).

Jeremy raises a general alarm: that only those
that have signed agreements with Microsoft are
protected. Oracle, Sun, Novell, Tom Tom and
everyone else is left out for themselves.

His call for action is to stop using Mono,
because of the OMG THE PATENTZ. And yet, he
is not consistent, there are plenty more
dangerous patents that both Open Office and
Google Office infringe. And Google is helping
people get the infringing code.

Yet, there is no denunciation.
Novell has a license agreement that allows them to distribute an implementation of .NET called Mono. It is a legal agreement that (may) cover Novell customers who are using Mono to develop .NET applications on Linux. I have not read the legal agreement between Novell and Microsoft, nor am I a lawyer.

Sun acquired a license from Microsoft regarding file formats (or something) that was covered in a (or a collection of) patent(s). StarOffice is a commercial product that they distribute (sell) as an alternative for MIcrosoft Office on Solaris. OpenOffice was an outgrowth of StarOffice that allowed for development and (to the best of my knowledge, having no direct involvement) the development is folded back into the main branch that becomes StarOffice. OpenOffice is not controlled by Sun Microsystems and thus not protected. I can not comment on Parens opinion sans to say that it is solely his back in '04.

As to patents covering aspects of Google Office and Open Office, Google has lawyers that have worked out agreements with Microsoft and I can not speak for the guys at OpenOffice as I have never been involved in that project either. StarOffice is probubly covered, though. You can contact Sun Microsystems if you feel there are legal/patent issues not covered in their licenses with Microsoft, the same with Google as per Google Office. They have lawyers that can probably address your concerns.

Mono is covereed only if you are using Novell/SuSE Linux, as that is what Novell and Microsoft agreed to. Again, if you have concerns, they have people that you can contact (even lawyers) that can probably speak to your concerns.
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Samba has a separate deal with Microsoft.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
Novell can include Samba 3.0.x all they like in patent deals, as that is under GPLv2. But note they don't include Samba 3.2.x or greater, as that is under GPLv3 and is explicitly excluded.

Samba has a separate deal with Microsoft, as I mentioned, which mean the only patents we have to worry about are those explicitly listed in the agreement. We have a bounded problem, Mono has an unbounded problem.

Jeremy.
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Jeremey ignores inconvenient facts.
hal8000 15th Oct 2009
Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy.

You selectively replied to the part of the
message that was easy to dismiss.

What about the substance? You certainly read
the patents that I listed?

When can we expect an article from you with the
title "Office-mania: It's a risky business"
where you tell your readers to stop using
Google Docs and stop using Open Office?

Got any ETA on the article?
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If Jeremy is not a lawyer, BOFH, ...
skeptipotamous Updated - 15th Oct 2009
...then why is he writing an article about patent law?
This is an opinion piece and he has an opinion on the subject. Perhaps the quetion you want to ask is: Jeremy, is this your opinion on the topic or a legal opinion based upon deep legal research and activity in the practice of Intellectual property law. I seriously suspect that it is only his opinion, but that is just me...
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Only his opinion
skeptipotamous 15th Oct 2009

Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, of course.

The question is, what is his opinion of OpenOffice and all of the Microsoft patents it is known to violate?

You said he isn't qualified to answer this correctly because he's a programmer, not a lawyer.

Ok, no problem.

But what's his opinion?
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It's just my opinion.
JeremyAllison 15th Oct 2009
I'm not a lawyer, and deep legal research and activity in Trademark, Patent and Copyright law is best left to lawyers (IMHO happy. It is based on conversations with such lawyers on this issue though.

Jeremy.
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I am not debating you on this.
B.O.F.H. 15th Oct 2009
I figure your opinion is based upon your own experience in a similar situation and your conversations with lawyers during (or after) the initial EU Competition/Anti-Trust case regarding Microsoft (which resulted in some interesting protocol specs).
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Jeremy, can you help me understand this.
skeptipotamous Updated - 15th Oct 2009

You mention that Tridgell cut a really great deal with Microsoft for Samba.

But if I were the leader of an open source project trying to interoperate with Microsoft technologies, what advice would you give me?

It seems the crux of your argument is "Samba is ok because we cut a really good deal with Microsoft."

Is the message here that open source projects, to be ok and to fully support "freedom," simply need to cut a really good deal with Microsoft?

What about other projects that try to interoperate with Microsoft, like openMAPI, open source implementations of FAT32, etc? Do they also need to cut really good deals with Microsoft?

And how should they go about doing that?

It is unclear what kind of example you are trying to set for the open source community here. Are you saying that projects that don't cut really good deals with Microsoft are suspect?

Thanks for clarifying.
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