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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Oracle wants big cut of Android damages as Google's IP headache gets worse

By | June 8, 2011, 4:40am PDT

Oracle is seeking major damages in its lawsuit against Google over Android in a move that reflects how the search giant’s intellectual property headaches may just continue to get worse. Should Google lose this IP battle, Android cuts would go to Oracle and Microsoft.

Florian Mueller highlighted a heavily redacted Google response to a damages argument made by Oracle expert witness Iain Cockburn, a Boston University professor. Cockburn argued that Google would owe unspecified damages if Android was found to infringe on Java.

The actual amount wasn’t disclosed, but Google did note that all Android revenue was included in Cockburn’s royalty calculation. Oracle also wants Google’s ad revenue from Android although Cockburn didn’t outline that argument directly. Oracle also argues for a 50 percent royalty rate.

If Oracle wins heavy damages it’s likely Google would have to rewrite Android—a big undertaking given the installed base. Mueller wrote:

This lawsuit has the potential to bring about a restructuring of Google’s Android business in economic as well as technical terms. Interestingly, Google itself admits that it could have done a license deal with Sun (apparently before it was acquired by Oracle) but rejected its terms. That refusal could now prove one of the worst mistakes in Google’s 13-year history as a company.

What are the chances of Oracle squeezing out big damages from Google? The odds are pretty good Oracle will get something out of Google because there will probably be a settlement before a trial. Oracle’s lawyers play hardball. Look no farther than the damages Oracle won vs. SAP in the TomorrowNow lawsuit. Few saw $1.3 billion in damages coming. At the moment, Google and Oracle are haggling over how to narrow the scope of the trial.

If we zoom out farther, it’s clear why Google is bidding for Nortel’s patents. The search giant has little IP defense. Citi analyst Walter Pritchard touched on this point in a big report on Microsoft’s tablet chances. He estimated that Microsoft gets $5 for every HTC Android device sold. Other Android OEMs may wind up paying anywhere from $7.50 to $12. If you toss in potential Oracle damages Android will be an operating system that’s free in name only.

Key excerpts from Pritchard’s report:

Google appears to have very little IP to defend itself with. The general protocol when a defendant is faced with an IP infringement accusation is to “retaliate” with infringement counterclaims and ultimately force some sort of cross licensing or other détente instead of entering a prolonged and costly legal proceeding that may result in a costly or disruptive settlement. Without significant IP of its own, Google is not likely to be able to deploy this defense…

Considering that Oracle is not suing to gain competitive advantage in the market for a competing smartphone product, we believe Oracle must believe it has strong chances of winning, otherwise it would not have filed the lawsuit…

Google may indemnify its OEMs and instead decide to fight the other legal action more directly itself, thereby drawing out the proceedings. On the other hand, the OEMs may choose to settle on
as favorable of terms as possible, noting that HTC settled for what we believe to be $5 per unit versus what Microsoft is asking of others (we believe $7.50 to $12.50). If the outcome is a significant settlement, it is likely a non-trivial per unit license settlement (like happened with HTC). If this is the case, this per unit settlement comes directly out of the OEM’s profit margin on each device. Our Taiwan-based colleague Kevin Chiang believes the operating margins per Android smartphone is the 10-15% range while the operating margins on Android tablets is 2-3%. The result of a settlement would be significantly inferior economics for the manufacture of Android-based devices.

Pritchard’s bottom line was that these Android IP concerns open the door for Windows Phone 7 or other alternatives.

Related: Oracle vs. Google over Java: Android lawsuits may begin to pile up

Public Version of Google Filing Re. Oracle Damages

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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0 Votes
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Taking someone's IP is "doing evil". Google has managed to dodge the IP bullet for years, I don't think they will dodge this one.
@NoAxToGrind
I am so torn. I spent more than a decade decrying MS for their predatory monopoly which stifled innovation.

Now Google's disruptive approach to software -- basically using the television/radio paradigm instead of the merchant paradigm -- has allowed them to innovate in all kinds of wonderful ways. But they are just so darned evil in that they are, at the end of the day, essentially just a spyware company. I prefer the MS model (let me buy something and then it's mine) to the Google model (I'm not even telling you what this is really gonna cost you, mwah ha ha ha ha). But then there was the stagnation we had under the former...

Why is it that the profit motive is so darned destructive? Why can't Mozilla get their app store off the ground and release a phone OS as awesome as Firefox? *That* I would use, if only on principal!

Oh well.
@jdakula And which runs heavier than any other OS there is? Yeah, no thanks on that one.
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Message has been deleted.
dhays Updated - 8th Jun
  • Flagged
@jdakula Find me any huge company that started out nice and stayed that way. It's called Capitalism and it has some drawbacks for sure! ALL companies are in business to MAKE MONEY....so bad behavior is sadly expected (and even worse - it's tolerated)....and I suspect this gets worse as the company gets bigger (whether by intent or inherent communication issues that arise as the company expands rapidly).
@jdakula
'
Well put. I trust Google as much as I'd trust a crack addict babysitting my child. Google makes everything look great on the surface but underneath is where the evil lurks.

I hope Oracle stomps google in court!
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You may be onto something
Will Pharaoh 8th Jun
@jdakula

They have different approaches to the same goal - money.

But you may have hit on something - Google believing they are so loved and "innovative", that poeple would overlook how they got to where they are.

Sometimes other companies can have innovative ideas, just not the patents to put them into place, so they don't.

Google's way around this was the wrong way, it looks like.
@jdakula

"MS model (let me buy something and then it's mine)"

Actually you didn't buy it, read the licence.
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Follow the money...
Wolfie2K3 9th Jun
@jdakula
1.) It takes money to create anything. Even if it's paying a bunch of programmers to write code. Especially if you want it to look GOOD.

2.) Mozilla, in spite of giving Firefox and Thunderbird away actually DO make money. They're paid by the folks at Google to install Google as the default search engine in every copy of FF.

Given points 1 and 2, how do you think Google would react if Mozilla would suddenly decide to jump into the phone OS arena with anything credible?

Where else do you think Mozilla could get funding to build a proper phone OS? Microsoft? Nah. They're having enough problems of their own getting their WP7 off the ground. The last thing they'd need is competition. Apple maybe? Nah. They've got iOS - and they don't need the distraction. Google - same reason as Apple - no dice. Oracle? Eh.. Maybe. But what would Oracle get out of it?
@jdakula
There is an interesting correlation here.
Oracle = Apple. One in the enterprise one in the consumner market. Both huge, cash rich giants with nothing better to do than sue everyone in sight to either put them out of business or stop the product/innovation or whatever in its tracks. Google may be big & the aruguments over the code will go on for years. Ther only reason it is an issue is because Google is a large enough company to make it worthwhile sueing them. The only losers in all this are the companies and individuals buying the products. What ever the rights and wrongs the there is only one winer with current practive of large companies sueing everyone...... parasitic lawyers.
@jdakula ... "I prefer the MS model (let me buy something and then it's mine)"
No, it's definitely NOT yours. All you have is a license to use anything from MS, and a very restrictive one at that unless it happens to be a freebie fix for a bug. You never "own" the software.
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@jdakula You cannot BUY anything from Microsoft --- read the license! Virtually NO software is yours from any vendor, you purchase a License to use. PERIOD!
@jdakula I don't see Google as evil at all. I think you are MASSIVELY overstating that.
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Harumph
rbethell 8th Jun
@NoAxToGrind Hard to call it evil when Oracle's ancestor jumped up and down promoting Java as both "open" and "open source." To this day, Java is under the GPL. Android is under the Apache license.

While there is certainly a legal question about their compatibility, there's certainly no moral dimension, and certainly no nonsense about "doing evil" at play.

Oracle, through its acquisition, open sourced Java. They shouldn't complain that they were taken at their word.
@rbethell

Oracle is very evil. The action is complete unethical. This is a company with a legacy of suing American companies out of existence. The phone market in the US is already crippled. The only thing at stake here is whether you'll be able to buy an Android device at AT&T. The entire rest of the world thinks this is reprehensible BS and they're right. If Oracle wins, I guess I'll just have to go back to buying my phones when I pass through Taipei.
@rbethell
And yet you forget java is both open and close source. Oracle can not do anything about open JDK and that isn't what they're going after . . .
@rbethell That's exactly right. Everyone posting here and the author of this article are living in the M$ sue happy world of yesterday along with Ellison and Oracle. Oracle will realize soon enough that open source means just that. It's more than high time a company like Google rammed that up their butt. I'm sick to my butt of hearing the whining "they don't have IP defense". What-ever...

"The entire rest of the world thinks this is reprehensible BS and they're right." I agree.
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No. Software patents are.
snoop0x7b Updated - 8th Jun
@NoAxToGrind I don't really think the patents in question should have been granted in the first place... A software patent on the idea of a virtual machine is just inane because it's an obvious idea.

The fact is Sun and Oracle both had mechanisms to gain license to the patents for 0 royalties which they renegged on in a cash grab. Why wasn't apache granted a license to the testing suite in order to gain license to the patents? Because if a free software organization gains access to that IP (as promised by the license and the terms of joining the Java consortium) it becomes free. The evil thing is the fact that Oracle went back on its word and is essentially taking advantage of the Java community by rescinding agreements it had for communal development when it suits Oracle.
@snoop0x7b

Obvious idea, prior art, failure to product, open source development. Oracle FAILS on all points. Oracle is a TROLL.
@snoop0x7b And there is prior art back to the late 70's and early 80's
@NoAxToGrind Think a gigantic Bullet Bill homing in on the Google logo! =)
@NoAxToGrind

Florian Mueller hates Android and is not a reliable nor accurate source on much of anything.
@DonRupertBitByte I guess you didn't read the link did you? Florian Mueller is an Android owner, user, and fanboy.
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Android "protector" Florian M.
Solid Water 8th Jun
@kent42

If you read what Florian Mueller is writing then you should clearly understand that he is spreading FUD on everything Linux/Android related. Just read all his articles and you will be throwing your Android phone into the window in a fear of being sued (exaggeration).

He might be Android owner/user/fanboy but it is not Google who is paying him money.
@NoAxToGrind So does this mean, by default, Oracle can sue Apple since Apple copied just about everything from Android for their upcoming iOS 5? Just curious...
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Nope
Pete "athynz" Athens 8th Jun
@ExploreMN Nope... because Android itself is a copy of iOS.
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ZDnet: fix your damned comment system.
DeusXMachina Updated - 8th Jun
@ExploreMN

FYI: Much of what in in the current iOS5 was in the works at Apple when Eric Schmidt sat on the board. It simply awaited the processor power necessary for implementation. Google did some of their own work here, but not even CLOSE to everything.
Oracle's suit is about the Java VM which is one thing iOS doesn't have.
@NoAxToGrind

Execept damages are exactly that. If Google show that Oracle was not actively looking to develop similar technology then there is clearly NO damage. This is childs play, and posturing to the extreme. Sure they'll get what they're due in royalties for 'fair use' etc but prohibitive damages would be a joke. Still we're talking about America so I suppose anythings possible.

Might as well just start attacking Oracles own products with their own code and really make life interesting. Surely they have the clout to hurt Oracle in terms of their own DB tech, and delve more into server OS. Go Google,,,, go hurt the money grabbing low life scumbags.
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@GetReal-mac.com

A car company can steal the design if you don't plan on making cars?
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Dump the IP system
alfielee@... 8th Jun
@NoAxToGrind it's just companies manipulating the system. The whole IP system should be dumped...
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DUMP THE IP SYSTEM!!
jparr 9th Jun
@alfielee@...

AGREE HEAVILY! Stupid judges, liberal courts, and malleable juries sit on top of legislation-for-sale.
@NoAxToGrind

But at the same time, Oracle is the company of "no ethics".

I see this as a battle of titans, in that regard.
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Patents and more
poorslob 8th Jun
Who are the companies that are pushing patent reform ?:
Google, Cisco and the like companies that do not have a strong tradition on building their own IP and operate with the silicon valley bravado... "build it first and make money we can always settle IP disputes later." Have seen and heard this repeatedly, over the years in many large companies.

The whole point of the patent system is to grant the holder a monopoly over a certain invention and right to sell and do what he or she wishes to do with it... and these companies nowadays, which are pushing patent reform aggressively are getting patents on things like; "I click on something twice and it takes me a different page where I put in my credit card number and so on. Or for telecom companies like cisco; "I route the call through here to the next box where two keys have to be pressed and then the call goes to the third box and the transaction completes." It is ridiculous.

At some point engineers and managers have to learn: there are rules and you have to play by them since that is the ethical thing to do. In all my years as a hiring manager and engineer I have seen every few engineers disclose patents that should be part of the exclusion clause in IP agreements with companies.... they essentially take their ideas from one place to another and pollute their future and former employers. Nor do the hiring managers have the savvy of taking care not to get into these traps.

Case and point the Google mobile payments gateway fiasco. The impunity with which this unethical behavior goes on in the country and in California is staggering...and California is a state with strong protections for inventors and individuals (where anything done with one's own resources and time belongs to oneself) is sad. With this scenario calling China and others people who steal IP is unfair.

A quick example comes to mind: Brocade communications. The founder chaired the SAN networking group paid for by HP while an employee there, worked on storage area networking products while at HP and started a SAN company BROCADE communications. Try that in Texas or any other state... you would go to JAIL for stealing company secrets and violating corporate policy.

At some level every idea has roots in some other idea. Just because you went to school and studied physics does not make the invention of a new kind of transistor obvious. I firmly believe a combination of exiting concepts in an innovative fashion into a different application should be patentable... not just patenting things like call routing and clicking on things...

I do believe Google has done great work. But a word of caution for all the arrogance their rank and file display.... most of Google revenue comes from advertising, and Google has not created any new markets. They have simply cannibalized the revenues of yahoo and other print media. This is a game of luck, other than revenues the company does not have a "real defensible competitive boundary" or barrier. Any new search engine or medium that becomes the new fad can kill Google business in an instant.

So a little bit of humility and a little less arrogance goes a long way. Paying taxes in the United States instead of using transfer pricing to avoid paying taxes also goes a long way in putting you on a high moral ground.
@poorslob As an employee, I should be allowed to work in my field only once? I carry knowledge with me. We all do. It's part of what created technology and culture itself.

The U.S. is myopic and doesn't see the long-term benefit to relaxing IP laws instead of cinching them up tighter by including business processes and software in the mix.
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@ poorslob

A lot of individual patents are arguably almost trivial, but that's true in just about every field (i.e. not just software). The way modern patent systems work is that firms that spend heavily on R&D build up huge patent portfolios in the fields they invest in. These are rarely used in the way patents were intended to be used, i.e. to give the owner a temporary monopoly. Rather, they're used as the basis for cross-licensing agreements, where the firms with the larger portfolios collect net royalties from the others, as a way of partly recovering their R&D costs, and all of the firms are able to use the technologies covered by the joint patent portfolios.

Google decided not to play by the same rules as everyone else, probably for two reasons: (1) they're one of the most arrogant corporations in the world; (2) they have very little IP themselves, so would end up paying royalties to everyone else. Oracle and Microsoft are basically retaliating to defend the traditional rules that they and others have played by for decades. If they win, things will continue as normal, and Google will be forced to play nicely (i.e. compensate the owners of the IP they use, like everyone else does). If they lose, it could be a potential earthquake, especially for the patent giants like IBM, Samsung and Microsoft.
@poorslob
Actually you would be incorrect. Going to school and learning science will make the invention of a new transistor obvious. There is this wonderful thing called the Zeitgeist. It is impossible for you or anyone else to come up with an idea that no one else in the entire world will come up with. The events that allow you to come up with the idea are happening to dozens of people all at the same time. Nothing in the history of man has ever been unique to a single person. When radio was invented several people were working on it and came up with the same and similar ideas. When electricity transport was invented several people came up with the same ideas about how to do it. The list just goes on and on and on with invention after invention, and area of science over and over again. History clearly shows us that more than one person will come up with the same idea as you no matter how revolutionary you think your solution or idea might be. The idea of patents is completely insane. If you are trying to solve a problem then someone else out there is trying to solve the exact same problem. So if neither party know of each other and one happens to make it to the patent office 2 days before the other one then the guy who was late should be punished? That is crap and that is exactly what the patent system says. Patents in this day and age are a complete joke and are completely unnecessary. Everything is built on top of everything else and it is impossible to come up with anything that is not build on something that came before it. It is just how science works, inventions work and how the human brain works. We are a product of our history, and so every invention is a product of what came before it. Thus any new invention is not unique but rather just a modification of what came before it, and multiple people will come up with the same exact answer as you.
@NoAxToGrind

Evidently the authors agree with you. But what I see that neither of you address is: just how strong IS Oracle's case, really? The Java language itself was open source, it was only test code that still had he Oracle license notice on it, and Google (or the OHA) did their own platform, they did not copy Oracle's.

More importantly, unlike Oracle's previous victims, Google has both the inclination and the cash to fight this predatory suit all the way to SCOTUS if need be.
@NoAxToGrind ... I know people can be myopiic and ignorant about many things, but I'm disappointed the article author or the first post might straighten out the meaning of "IP" for the less experienced users. It's simply amazing how many people are trying to equate it to Internet Protocol addresses.
This is a continuing and frustrating part of zdnet's authorship and fact-checking - not at least once per article identifying what such things mean, especially when there is another meaning to it for the less experienced public at large. Wth all the IP4/6 discussions it's not surprising people might be a little blind in one eye.
@tom@... Very good point. But these are not authors or editors or journalists. They are little kids that jots notes on a 'blog' and expect to be paid. The days of good journalism and writing are over. Sad, but true.
@NoAxToGrind
I'm not a big fan of Google. However, I have yet to see any credible evidence that they've violated copyright. Florian Mueller is not a reliable source of information at all. I haven't read this latest article, but the things by him I have read reflect zero understanding of copyright and patent laws (or perhaps are directed toward people with zero understanding).

Software patents, on the other hand, are such a mess that every piece of software of any significance appears to violate several patents, except that most software patents would be completely invalid if properly reviewed. I haven't seen anything to suggest that Android violates patents any more than every other modern operating system.
@NoAxToGrind
Taking someone's IP is "doing evil".
Is it?
I don?t know about evil but the things I hear about the use of patents seems to me very similar with what I see in gangster movies. MS vs Barnes & Noble. Lodsys business model.
The judge has already granted Google's request for a "Daubert" hearing to determine if this document should be tossed. See link below.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110607223038471
@Plain Logic ... The "Daubert" hearing only applies to amount of damages, not guilt. One way or another Oracle will still get its pound of flesh.

The issue here is that code was copied from a GPL license for Java and used for a Apache license for Android. There really isn't any question that it happened - and that is the Gotcha that Oracle has to on Google. This is where copyright law comes into play.

If Java had a Apache license or if Android had a GPL license Oracle would not have had a case to bring against Google.
0 Votes
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Harmony?
snoop0x7b 8th Jun
@kyron.gustafson@... Harmony is licensed under the Apache license. Google claims that they copied some code out of Harmony.
0 Votes
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RE: Harmony
kyron.gustafson@... 9th Jun
@snoop0x7b... Yeah, Oracle has issued a subpoena to ASF for all documents related to Harmony. I know Android uses code from Harmony, but I don't think ASF directly copied code from Java.

Oracle has stated that it will never grant a license to Project Harmony. Oracle has refused to allow Harmony to be tested and certified as compliant with the official Java standard.

Bottom Line: Oracle wants moble devices to use Java Mobile Edition (Java ME) and not Harmony (or Android which uses a subset of Harmony).
0 Votes
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No, That's Not Correct
CFWhitman 13th Jun
@kyron.gustafson@...
The Daubert can still be about the evidence for amount of damages even when the question of whether any damages will be applied hasn't been settled yet. The Daubert is about determining what supposed evidence is proper for the jury to evaluate and what is irrelevant.

As far as I've seen, there was no code copied into the Java-like part of Android that was released as part of a GPL product and also copyrightable.

This doesn't mean that it's impossible for Google to have done something illegal here, but I haven't seen evidence of any such action so far.
0 Votes
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Q
Hasam1991 8th Jun
Is that a picture of honeycomb tablet?? how is that cool or why would you want to use that??
@Hasam1991
Its a picture of the "configuration mode" screen. You add widgets to your screens here. And yes, honeycomb is cool and people want to use it.
@willyampz
Not so far.
  • Flagged
0 Votes
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