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Images: Microsoft's shoddy Windows Genuine Advantage Installation Process

By | June 8, 2006, 9:31am PDT

After clicking on the “Details” link on the previous screen (in hopes of getting more information to help me decide whether to consent to the update or not), I get quite a spartan (as details go) pop-up. It has even less information about the update that I’m contemplating than the previous summary screens. But, it also has another link (whoopee! yeah!) for more information. Is this user experience really what Microsoft considers to be an adequate consent process? How many users will follow this circuitous route to figure out what this is about (never mind the fact that the first WGA-related download and installation was issued to me under false pretenses and I was never offered the opportunity to consent or refuse that). I go ahead and click on the “More information” link.

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Credit: David Berlind

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See also:

  • With WGA, is Microsoft forcing Windows users to install and test pre-release software?
  • Does Microsoft’s new WGA disclosure fall short?
  • MS anti-piracy tools phone home
  • Ed Bott: Microsoft presses the Stupid button

    • More from “Between the Lines”

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    I do....
    maggietoo9 19th Jul 2008
    I do, that's why I use XP SP2 with a few carefully selected downloaded and saved hotfixes. I wouldn't dream of letting Microsoft "update" anything on my PC. When XPSP2 doesn't work for me anymore, I'm going to Linux (its already prettier than Vista).

    That is, if Microsoft hasn't ruined the web and computing for ALL of us by then - that's the track they are on; doing away with freeware and setting themselves up for a cut off the top of EVERY application and webpage - with YOU paying the increased costs to all the vendors.

    The cornerstone of this project is the little matter of NOTHING running on OR communicating with VISTA unless it has a Microsoft "cert" ($$$), which will affect EVERY operating system, and EVERY webpage, regardless of which OS you have. The technology is already slumbering in every vista-ready PC, waiting for MSs CEOs to decide enough chumps are running vista to make it too big to ignore and too late for most people to turn back. When that happens - just watch and see! Every person running Vista is unknowingly selling us all down the river, themselves included. People have their heads in the sand.

    SP3 is a desperate effort to get some of vista's (and WindowsLIVE) onto XP when they realized that people were not going to switch to Vista.

    WindowsLIVE and Windows Mail are the biggest boondoggles yet. That's like giving Microsoft the keys to everything you own.

    It would be really different if Microsoft CEOs were honest, but they are not - you know that. You are the enemy and all they want is to pick ours and everyone else's pockets - ANY WAY THEY CAN!! They are thugs.
    View in thread
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    Is WGA "Spyware" or not?
    nerdnick 9th Jun 2006
    Most SW programs don't ask you whether or not you can install them or not, let alone offer any "fuzzy ilogic" regarding (as WGA does) any "implied consent" or "What if I don't?" click on "agree/install/continue"? MSFT is in a very "Grey" area here in my view. Most ID10T users were totally confused by the process, as I have experienced numerous times in the past, when I used to work the "HELP(less)Desk" for a major cable internet provider. I agree with you totally Dave on this issue. "K.I.S.S.!"
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    Of course it's spyware.
    pkrdk 12th Jun 2006
    Naturally most programs don't ask wherher you want to install themor not. You buy the package or actively download from the net, and run 'install'. Spyware install behind your back, it is impossible to uninstall, it connects to unknown servers or domains, it sends unknown information, and uses it for unknown purposes. WGA does all of the latter - it's spyware.

    I'm off MIcrosoft and have been for several years, but unfortunately the management wants their software at work. I get more and more convinced I made the right descicion. A MS free PC experience is quite easy to obtain, and you don't miss them.
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    WGA is malware
    lugh@... 6th Aug 2006
    from the article we can see that nowhere does Microsoft mention directly that the MGA tool was being installed, or a way to avoid the installation, or install other software portions without the inclusion of the WGA- last I checked when Sony did this it was called malware and they got royally sued, what is the difference here?

    there are currently valid keys for MS WinXP that are being treated as invalid keys by the WGA and no answer from Microsoft as to how they plan to rectify the situation aside from making users pay *again* for a 'valid' copy of XP, which may or may not then pass the WGA test

    smell something rotten? I do..
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    WGA = SPYWARE
    Ole Man 9th Jun 2006
    WGA IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF SPYWARE....IT CONNECTS TO UNKNOWN COMPUTERS AND TRANSMITS (AND RECEIVES) UNKNOWN INFORMATION. IT IS WAAAA....YY BEYOND MY TRUST IN MICROSOFT.
    OLE MAN
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    I understand, but it is funny
    jdawgnoonan 9th Jun 2006
    I understand, but it is funny that the company that monopolized
    partially based on strategically allowing piracy now does this. I
    absolutely despise Microsoft and am glad that I no longer use their
    systems. In fact Vista will be the first version of Windows that I will
    not purchase any copies of.
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    Error in article
    Free_Thinker 11th Jun 2006
    I'm not trying to defend Microsoft here, but on Page 7 of your article you say they are being "sneaky" because they don't specify that the update includes WGA. However, if you click the Details link on that page, it clearly states that the update includes WGA, which will give you the early option not to install it. I'm a bit surprised that you missed this given your apparent persistence on Page 11.
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    but....
    tomato1 12th Jun 2006
    if you do a fresh install of an older version on xp without sp1 with a valid key, then you try to do windows update it will make you install 4 updates first and wga is one of them. If you do not install wga then you will not be able to install any other updates until you install WGA.
    Now that is clearly not giving you a choice to install or not. Plus, if I have a valid key to install and XP installs then why should I download another key checker when I purchased XP in the first place. If you are concerned that you do not have a valid windows copy then go download WGA and find out. If you trust the Key you got when you bought the Windows OS then don't.
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    The devil is behind the details (button)
    dberlind 12th Jun 2006
    Yes. I have since seen the screen shot. That said, the reason I didn't look into the details was because the three bullet points on the front screen seemed reasonable to me (making no mention to anything remotely close to a validation tool). Detail data (as in drill-down data in a report) generally offers the nitty gritty points that can be rolled up into the bullet points or summary report. Based on the bullet points, I had absolutely no expection that WGA was coming when I hit OK. It wasn't until the next screen that I was like "What the ????" As the other reader points out too, this was an update to Windows Update (as I learned in a phone call today). It can't be declined or Windows Update will actually stop working.

    db
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    Which is a GOOD thing!
    maggietoo9 19th Jul 2008
    No one should allow Microsoft to update anything on their computer.
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    Repeat after me. JPEG - Photos, GIF/PNG - Screenshots
    grug 11th Jun 2006
    It's not that hard.

    You'd think ZDNet would know better and wouldn't upload JPEGs of Windows screenshots, making them full of artifacts and 3 times the size.

    It's a minor nitpick but it's not hard to get right.
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    Could be your browser
    dragontiger 12th Jun 2006
    Actually, that's Internet Explorer "helpfully" scaling down the screenshot to fit on your screen. If you look at the full-size images, there's little to no artifacting.
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    There may be little, but there is never no artifacts in JPG.
    CobraA1 12th Jun 2006
    They may be so small they are difficult to see, but due to the lossy nature of JPEG compression, there are always artifacts.

    And some of those images are forcibly resized via the HTML (image #7, for example), which all browsers will resize and make look horrible. BUT - this is something totally different from the JPEG artifacts.
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    Not completely true..
    Patrick Jones 22nd Jun 2006
    JPG compression can be lossless. It just depends on how you save the file. Granted, it almost defeats the purpose of JPG but I don't want my original photos to be lossy.
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    suggestion
    ChazzMatt 4th Aug 2006
    Go into IE internet options and UNcheck the "automatically resize images" box.

    That's one of the first things I do on a new computer, as well as UNcheck "resuse winddows for launching shortcuts" and CHECK, CHECK, CHECK "empty temporary internet folders on browser close" (so much malware tries to hide there)

    but I hate IE trying to resize pics -- I want to see how the website intended. so many people don't realize IE is doing that.
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    the first WGA update is to use the Windows Update website
    Avatar28 11th Jun 2006
    Remember a few months ago when Microsoft started requiring you to do WGA validation to download most of the stuff on their site and to do the Windows update website? That first WGA tool you installed is the one for the Windows Update site. Without installing that you would be unable to use the Windows update site (which is the nature of the update they're wanting you to do) and you would only be able get the critical updates via the automatic updates process. The SECOND one you installed is the actual WGA notifier that was just released. I'm pretty sure the two are seperate and that the latter will still install even if the first one isn't present.

    Incidentally, when the EULA comes up if you decline it, the update won't install and it will give you the option not to ask you about that update again.
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    Information collected during validation in FAQ?
    drake2 11th Jun 2006
    The FAQ document at http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx?displaylang=en has a question titled "Information collected during validation."

    They claim in the answer none of the information is a unique identifier, but I dont see how they can claim boot time each day, the ip address, a bios version, a bios md5 sum, and the hard drive serial number is not uniquely identifiable information?
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    Critical Security Updates
    christexan@... 12th Jun 2006
    Part of the reason you were able to download many updates prior to WGA installation on the older system, is that MSFT in the realization of legal liability, backed off the "no critical updates" stance, so you will receive critical security updates for anything currently installed. However anything with new features or functionality, you will be forced through the WGA program to do. This is a change from the early WGA procedures, MSFT realized how open to legal action they would make themselves from the entire internet using population as hackers of older vulnerabilities eventually flooded the internet through unpatched MSFT holes.
    Same kind of thing as a voluntary automotive recall, they won't recall a car because a few sunroofs are sticking due to design flaws (until enough bad PR hits anyhow), but if it's the brake system failing due to design flaws, the automakers tend to bite the bullet (not always though), knowing it's cheaper than the liability once the flaw is recognized.
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    ... and if it thinks you're a pirate ...
    Mister Bleau 13th Jun 2006
    after installing the update, I got a message saying I had a pirated version of Windows. I suspect I might have pirated it myself by installing my desktop XP Pro from my laptop disc after a crash, but no way to prove it, of course. So now I have a very obnoxious nagware balloon popping up every few minutes telling me I have a pirated version of Windows. Microsoft is judge and jury, and I'm the perp. But wait, it gets better! I clicked on the baloon, was taken to the WGA Web page, where Microsoft offered to make me whole again for $150. If I would give them my credit card number, they would e-mail me a key that would upgrade and legitimize my "counterfeit copy" "as soon as your payment is processed." If I didn't pay up, MS would never again allow me to receive patches to fix all the holes they left in their OS to the delight of mailicious hackers. Seeing no easy way to fight this (and not really sure of the legal status of my installation) I figured it was easiest to pay up. Well, they basically took my money and ran. The withdrawal had already cleared my bank by 8 am today, and there is still no e-mail from MS -- not a key, not so much as a thank you, Mr. Pirate. Nor does MS provide an e-mail contact to lodge a query or complaint about this matter. Lesson learned: Microsoft is a lot better at stealing our money than most of us could ever be at stealing their software.
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    Chargeback
    buran 27th Jun 2006
    If you haven't received a key (and it's not in your spam folders, etc)., and calling them to complain (try their general tech support line), hack the notifications away and call your bank to get a chargeback processed. A merchant who never delivers the promised good/service gets the money yanked from their merchant account and a chargeback fee levied, and you get your money returned.

    Failing to deliver what's promised is fraud.
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    Access of Evil?
    IMRAN@... 13th Jun 2006
    You'd think Microsoft would have learnt from the disaster of
    SONY's similar spyware. Why do they have to access info on the
    valid use of their product through such evil-sounding
    mechanisms?

    I understand their need for controlling piracy, and it amazes me
    how double-standarded (I am the Decider who decideded that
    that that is a valided word) our society is.

    Not that you'd EVER expect me to say anything good about
    Microsoft or to actually defend it but.... We complain when
    companies actually try to protect THEIR property from being
    stolen, but want companies to make their products so secure
    that our data is not stolen. We complain that companies are
    trying to prevent fraudulent installations of their products. Yet,
    we leave them no choice but to use back door ways because of
    "outcries" if the companies just came out and said "We will not
    permit any more use of pirated copies."

    I DETEST companies that require a CD to be installed to run their
    software, and I also dislike products that ONLY let me install on
    ONE machine instead of at least two personal machines. (e.g.
    someone using a 12" PowerBook may want to have a product
    installed on the PowerBook but want to work on a larger screen/
    keyboard on an iMac at home.) But a one-time (preferably two
    machine) registeration that ensures only those 2 machines can
    use that particular copy of the software is an acceptable and fair
    tool that all companies should be able to use without negative
    public opinion.

    What do you think? Let me know on my blog at http://
    imran.com/media/blog/ . Thanks.

    Imran
    IMRAN.TV
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    verclsid?
    geegee_z 13th Jun 2006
    This has got to be related to the verclsid.exe file that periodically hogs my cpu cycles. I tried deleting the file (even though MS claims it's for something else), but Windows insists on downloading updates that puts this file back on my pc. Anyone know how to "switch off this feature or not use it" as the EULA claims can be done?
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    How to Block verslcid.exe
    eeya 30th Jun 2006
    It is very simple, install Zone Alarm and have it block the program. End of problem. You can also have it block M$ WGA as well. I'll pay for Windows when M$ gives me a secure and fuctional product with no strings attached to my wallett.

    Would you buy a car that crashes for no reason, or that anyone can take and drive away even if your still at the wheel.

    NO!

    Well M$, if you want any of my money then you have to earn it.

    There are people in the world that are far more intelegent than those that work for M$. No matter what kind of sceme that M$ comes up with to steal my money, the more likly sombody will break it. And for that I thank all the Hackers in the world.!!!

    Bye Bye Billy I'm glad to see you go.....

    Just not quick enough!
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    Microsoft Genuine Advantage
    jlhausmann 13th Jun 2006
    This is definitely spyware, how else could you describe it?
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    "Genuine Advantage" .. What advantage?
    deedeedubya 13th Jun 2006
    I'm just wondering, who gets the advantage here? How does this "Genuine Advantage" help the end user? I'm thinking it doesn't. If you didn't know what you were doing, wouldn't you blindly install it?

    I call ********.

    Okay, so if everyone in the world really pays for the licenses, will that lower the cost of the OS per license down to something reasonable? No, sorry, that would be too much to ask.

    I'm sorry, but there's no way I'd ever be upset if someone let me know they didn't pay for the Windows they have on their computer. I don't consider "stealing" Windows really stealing. Everyone else subsidizes the theft.

    I'm with the other guy (that actually paid up), they are quite good at stealing for themselves.
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    I got censored.
    deedeedubya 13th Jun 2006
    See where the stars are? I said the equivilent of "bull-poo". I can't believe it censored that.

    Yes, I call bull-poo. Or something. Blech.
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    re:"Genuine Advantage" .. What advantage?
    dewey56 29th Jun 2006
    Very simple, really.
    THEIR ADVANTAGE, YOUR DIS-ADVANTAGE!
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    "Genuine Advantage" is another word for
    MacGeek2121 3rd Aug 2006
    "Bend me over"
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    I now hate MS more
    dshealey_z 14th Jun 2006
    I have my system on "notify" before updates, and that damned Genuine Advantage one will not let you just ignore it. It keeps beating you about the head and shoulders until you finally give up and let it install. I have legal Windows XP, and know it. I was determined not to let MS install a 0.9Mb file on my already pretty full Hard Drive, but they gave me no other choice except to put up with the incessant badgering. I let it install, and a couple days later deleted it, only to start the crap all over again.

    I may finally be driven to check out a MAC next time a new computer is in work, even though some of my software does not work on MAC.
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    Did you try putting it on ignore?
    buran 27th Jun 2006
    My Mac has an ignored-updates list, and I've never used the feature on my Windows system, but I know it has it (there were screenshots in one of these stories showing a "reset ignored updates" link). You shouldn't ever be bothered about that update again until you reset the ignore list.
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    I've yet to see any software I WANT
    labarker 29th Jun 2006
    (never mind need) that isn't available for Mac. As for computer
    games, you can keep them. A computer isn't a toy.
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    Turning off Updates
    maggietoo9 19th Jul 2008
    You can go into Services and turn off updates. I have XP SP2 (SP3 is spyware/controlware/snoop&poopInMyPC-ware) with SELECTED HOTFIXES that I downloaded and saved. Letting M$ "update" your PC is foolish, IMO. Don't you know they regard their customers as "the enemy"? and treat us accordingly. I will use XP SP2 until things change so much that it doesn't work for me anymore. At that time I will go to Linux. Linux is really about ready now - in a couple of years it will be even better - already looks better than Vista. As long as M$ CEOs are stopped from their current dirty monopolizing tricks and don't succeed in ruining Linux and the web for everyone. A pox on Ballmer and the lot of them. I despise them - they are so greedy at the expense of harming EVERYyone else - that yes, they are evil. There is no more accurate word for the Microsoft mindset.
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    Who Really Cares?
    John Zern 14th Jun 2006
    The average user? I asked more then a few people here at work. No one seemed to care...
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    froggie in the water
    PassingThru 14th Jun 2006
    Excuse me, but why do people run "office surveys" and then tell us what the dudes in their office think? Speaking about not caring, I don't care how dense the people "at work" are. Yet repeatedly, we hear over and over again that people don't care about this or that security or spyware risk. Yes, you are on to a hot description of the proverbial frog in the boiling water. Thank you. Enough already. Explain it adequately and they may start to "care."

    [Folktales explained: If you raise the temperature slowly enough a frog in a pot of water won't jump out and will boil to death. -- Someone actually ran an experiment on this and found that frogs will jump out before the water starts to boil, so Microsoft better watch the temperature very closely.]
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    re: WGA = spyware
    Loggies 28th Jun 2006
    Well how about building a WGA alert into every anti-spyware app on the market. I can just imagine that it could be somewhat of an embarrassment if WGA and spyware becomes sort of an industry-wide synonym.

    Then the firewall vendors can build some WGA specific filters into their firewall and the hackers can devise a "cloak" ID that every privacy-conscious user can load in the background.

    It just might turn WGA spyware into totally wasted effort and provide a good bit of ammo to poke fun at MS with.
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    Dream on....
    maggietoo9 19th Jul 2008
    The vendors are bowing to Microsoft - the spyware concept works for them too, they like it.

    The last update for ZoneAlarm had a slew of Microsoft items pre-approved - that I never approved - and gave you all these dire warnings if you tried to set them to "notify me" - so I went back to the prior version, then to Comodo Firewall. Microsoft is the main spyware vendor that I want protection AGAINST!

    Adaware some years back, removed an advertiser from its checklist, allowing the adware to stay on our machines without telling us it was there.

    If you think the software vendors of "protection" cannot be strong-armed by Microsoft - think again. And if you think Microsoft won't try to strong-arm them - I've got a bridge I want to sell you.

    Microsoft has even strong-armed banks into blocking statement downloads to older versions of MSMoney so MS can try to make you buy it AGAIN in their newest version. How do I know? The CEO of my bank admitted it to me - said MS threatened to not let them download to Vista version if they didn't block downloads to an older version.

    Microsoft is nothing if not evil - their CEOs behave like thugs.
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    Sheesh!
    HerbieHightower 29th Jun 2006
    So stop using MS Windows already. Man, you guys never stop the whining. That's what's so nice about choice. Don't like it? Dont use it. Very simple concept.
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    Sheesh to You Too
    Ole Man 3rd Aug 2006
    Well sheesh to you too. If you don't like reading the beefs about Microsoft spyware, DON'T READ IT.
    We, the weary of Microsoft's BS, bought and paid for our software, and we have the right to ***** about it all we want, anywhere we want, anyhow we want, and use it all we want.
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    Held for Ransom
    DoctorBrent 29th Jun 2006
    Cool, so Microsoft has just announced to the whole world that they have installed a backdoor on all of our operating systems that we purchased with our own money so that they can go and shut us all out of our own computers anytime they want to?

    And nobody sees a problem with this?
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    I do....
    maggietoo9 19th Jul 2008
    I do, that's why I use XP SP2 with a few carefully selected downloaded and saved hotfixes. I wouldn't dream of letting Microsoft "update" anything on my PC. When XPSP2 doesn't work for me anymore, I'm going to Linux (its already prettier than Vista).

    That is, if Microsoft hasn't ruined the web and computing for ALL of us by then - that's the track they are on; doing away with freeware and setting themselves up for a cut off the top of EVERY application and webpage - with YOU paying the increased costs to all the vendors.

    The cornerstone of this project is the little matter of NOTHING running on OR communicating with VISTA unless it has a Microsoft "cert" ($$$), which will affect EVERY operating system, and EVERY webpage, regardless of which OS you have. The technology is already slumbering in every vista-ready PC, waiting for MSs CEOs to decide enough chumps are running vista to make it too big to ignore and too late for most people to turn back. When that happens - just watch and see! Every person running Vista is unknowingly selling us all down the river, themselves included. People have their heads in the sand.

    SP3 is a desperate effort to get some of vista's (and WindowsLIVE) onto XP when they realized that people were not going to switch to Vista.

    WindowsLIVE and Windows Mail are the biggest boondoggles yet. That's like giving Microsoft the keys to everything you own.

    It would be really different if Microsoft CEOs were honest, but they are not - you know that. You are the enemy and all they want is to pick ours and everyone else's pockets - ANY WAY THEY CAN!! They are thugs.
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    I'm a FireFox user; My WGA offering came through automatic updates
    GreatInca 29th Jun 2006
    It came by itself on all 3 computers. No other updates were with it. Because of the 'kill switch', i'm not downloading any more updates at all and will turn to Emule P2P for my updates to DirectX and such. WGA-Only updates ARE widespreadly pirated, but MS may learn off of stardock and start checking WGA at install-time instead of download-time.
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    The Problem isn't XP
    Thexyone 29th Jun 2006
    The problem isn't WGA/XP and locking that, Microsoft should just
    give it up and get on with VISTA maybe.

    Or maybe Gate's should be helping us poor people by giving the OS
    away for free.
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    Windows XP is just a product
    Cardhu 3rd Sep 2006
    Microsoft is the source.

    Not just Bill Gates. The entire Microsoft corporate culture.

    They want to help you, all right. By squeezing you for every penny they can.
    0 Votes
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    Had Enough
    david1524 29th Jun 2006
    I have two PCs , one running Win XP Home & Linux, the other XP Pro. Have used PCs since 1985 - days of the IBM PC XT. Am waiting for delivery of a Powermac G4 bought through eBay, and will see how the Apple experience compares to the Microsoft experience.
    Yes, I am tired of submitting to cross-examination from MS employees when reinstalling the OS for the nth time after hardware updates and irrecoverable OS crashes. Tired of the whole MS hassle. WAG is the end, really.
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    10 Years of Comparison
    Cardhu 4th Sep 2006
    In our home with 3 Apple systems and 5 Windows systems.

    The Windows systems: Frequent crashes, lockups, corrupted FATs, and steadily degrading performance. Full system re-images every 3-4 years are normal system maintenance. More often when some application installation goes wrong.

    The Apple systems: Not a single problem in 10 years. None. Zero. Just constant reliable operation.

    Especially remarkable for how easily dual-platform software installs on the Macs versus Windows systems.
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    Had Enough
    david1524 29th Jun 2006
    Just found out that you cannot install Windows Internet Explorer & Beta 3 unless you install WGA and your installation has been approved.
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    WGA came too early
    rastaub 29th Jun 2006
    If you have a problem with it, you have to pay ($150 I read in one post).
    Will you spend for VISTA in 2007? Half a year later?
    You don't pay now and wait for VISTA? You'll be annoyed for half a year.
    You have half a year to change. Consider it!
    For me, I have one task I cannot yet replace with *NIX or MAC. Calendar, addresses (Lotus organizer) and sync to Nokia phone. When I'll find a solution to this ... bye bye MS
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    verclsid
    bogar 1st Jul 2006
    i installed the zone alarm, but verclsid is still blocking my desktop. what can i do else?
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    Verclsid.exe
    tealcat 3rd Aug 2006
    When all this foo-fa-rah started ove WGA, I knew that I would have a problem with one of my machines. I used XP Pro that was licensed to one of my other comps. I went looking for a solution that would allow me to still be able to use that machine, and be abled to do the updates.

    The name of the file is: 905474. I used it, and have had not problems updating, and do not get the "notification" balloon. I don't have a url for the file, but it should be easily found.
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    905474 is the new WGA DL
    JB722 5th Sep 2006
    KB 905474 is the DL for WGA, "Windows Genuine Advantage" notification! So, ok, you have machine #2 "cleared" to eliminate the MS notification window. But how about machine #1? Is it now up-date-able? No annoying messages from MS? Inquiring minds wish to know.
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    Microsoft WGA
    mchrist@... 2nd Jul 2006
    I uninstalled WGA as per Microsoft's instructions, but MS Update wants to reinstall it before letting me access any other updates. I navigated to change my options or settings for MS Update. At the bottom of the page is a paragraph that discusses opting out of the update program. It indicates that I can continue to get the Windows updates, but I can't figure out where or how. And I will no longer be able to get updates for the other MS software for which I have paid good money and have received licenses. How can they legally deprive me of updates to legal software that I have purchased? Its just amazing...

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    ie8 fix

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    ie8 fix