ie8 fix

Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Steve Jobs blasts teacher unions and textbook industry

By | February 18, 2007, 8:56am PST

Summary: In a rare public statement about a subject other than iPods or Macs, Steve Jobs said that "unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," and that technology in the classroom isn't going to improve public schools until principals can fire bad teachers. He also talked about a textbook-free education system, using free [...]

In a rare public statement about a subject other than iPods or Macs, Steve Jobs said that "unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," and that technology in the classroom isn't going to improve public schools until principals can fire bad teachers. He also talked about a textbook-free education system, using free online information like Wikipedia (but with more oversight) and freeing up money for investing in better technology for schools.

According the AP story, Jobs was sharing the stage with Michael Dell in Austin at a forum on technology in the classroom. Dell was less inflammatory in his remarks, speaking of the need for a more competitive market for principals.

It's not clear whether Steve Jobs will continue to speak out on issues like education, but he is showing his colors. He runs Apple with an iron fist and apparently thinks that schools should be run the same way. He's right that the ideal would be to only have great teachers, but blaming the bad teacher syndrome totally on the unions isn't going to solve the problem. Paying teachers a better wage to attract more talent (they don't get those nice back-dated stock options) and keeping the good teachers from seeking other employment because they can't afford to teach would be a good start. That's not to say that the teacher unions can't improve on performance standards for their members to eliminate poor performers from the teacher pool.

Update: Don Dodge says the problem is not money.

Schools already get more than 50% of the local budgets in most cities and towns. Health care is the same deal. We spend more per capita on health care than any country in the world. The problems with education and health care are not lack of funding. The problem is lack of incentive.

Robert Scoble and Giovanni Rodriquez chime in. More on Techmeme.

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Please Try Teaching
sthender 28th Mar 2008
As usual, people who have never taught are posting ignorant thoughts. True, required days of teaching are around 180. 7 hours? That's 7 hours of student contact, it doesn't include the two extra hours when the kids go home working on lesson plans, calling parents, looking for resources for creative lessons. The extra hours at home correcting papers as well. Then there is summer. Michigan just changed their social studies curriculum. Guess what I will be working on this summer. I will be creating my own text books based on resources I can find to meet the grade the level content expectations.
Now let's move into the real world instead of the television. Have you taught kindergarden? Do you even comprehend the responsibilites of teaching 5 year olds to read? Now lets throw in some other interesting factors like 3 kids being ADHD, 2 special ed., 7 coming from divorced families, 3 coming from homes where mom and dad are abusive to one another and only know how to deal with conflict through violence, 4 from families where mom and dad can't read and the only communications they receive is from the television. Oh yes, let's toss in the mandates that are required by schools to achieve. The ones that say Student A who has been read 100 times before starting school is to achieve as much as Student B who has been read to 10,000 times before starting school. I work for a rural school system. We don't have a curriculum director. We the teachers are curriculum directors. We don't have a counselor. We are the counselor and sometimes the parents. I love teaching and I am proud of what I do. But please, save the overpaid chat for the professional sports figures.
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Union Problems
p0figster 18th Feb 2007
This is just another case where unions do more to harm the industry than help. The fact of the matter is, every teacher in the world is a teacher because they WANT to teach - the pay isn't and won't be high enough to attract the "brightest" talent. The unions push for higher wages - which reduce overall employment levels. They protect horrible teachers via tenure agreements. What Jobs is saying is very true. Teachers that are tenured but are bad teachers should be fired. They consume tax payer dollars and compromise the education and future of upcoming generations. Teachers can get lazy when they know they can't be fired. Additionally, since privatization is out as an option for public schools - we should switch to a voucher system to improve the education system without having to pay any extra money. It's been proven time and time again that when government agencies are privatized they perform with a much higher level of efficiency. However, it must be recognized that without public education, illiteracy would rise and the nations poorest would be bound to their poverty for lack of an opportunity to better themselves. Thus, the voucher system allows for an imitation of privatization without compromising equal opportunity for education.
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But isn't peer review the only way
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
to determine the "bad" teachers? How can this determination lie directly on the principal who may just be a "bad" principal? That form of dictatorship is likely to harm young people from wanting to teach to begin with, since they may have an alternative style a given priciple might find a "bad" teaching. I guess that's an issue itself, determining what is bad, what is alternative to traditional and what is just a rift between teacher and principal no matter the competence of the teacher.

Steve Jobs, as the story states, is in no real position to carry any weight on this matter. He runs a shop that outsources practically everything they do with a team of programmers and engineers on staff to enhance or extend what they've purchased. Is that the kind of model that fits well in a school? Teach kids how to find those to do the work for you and you just concentrate on marketing it, using commercials with lies and attack ads if necessary? I'd think Steve Jobs might want to consider his own "children" before speaking out against the teacher union. I'm sure it's just another play for public attention by the megalomaniac Jobs. Just more theater that is surely aimed at some futher purpose to gain marketshare for the Mac. He has demonstrated he has no conscience, so who is supposed to believe this beyond the small legion of Jobs loyalists and zealots.
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Let the parents choose
mtgarden 19th Feb 2007
In the end, the parents are responsible to determine the quality, not a school board or group of "educated people." I want to choose how my children are taught and with what they are taught. I find Will Smith's choice intriguing. He has chosen to hire personal tutors to teach his children Plato's Republic - in FIRST grade.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would make most school boards happy. More educated children who can recognize a self-perpetuating monoploy when they see one....

While I am probably harder on public education than I should be, I do notice several things. First, money doesn't solve the issue. Every election we choose to throw more money at the problem and every year we are told that we are being stingy. We need to throw more money becuase teachers are underfunded and schools can't afford to educate. Whatever.

Second, I fail to see how schools can educate unwilling children. If the parents refuse to care, why will the children?

My solution? Fairly straightforward (and a bit idealistic). Get rid of mandatory education. Only those who want to go should have education. Don't turn anyone away, but don't require it either. (Once a upon a time education was a priviledge and an honor to be achieved. Only the rich could go. I say, let them go if they want the priviledge, just don't shove the "honor" down their throats.) What about those who won't go to school? Make them work. They can have a choice after 4th or 5th grade. School or work. Make school tough enough so that it isn't the easy ride.

Some day in the near future, poorly educated parents will force their children to go to school because these parents have learned the value of education.

And for pity's sake, don't look down on blue collar workers. Any job that puts food on the table and shelters a family is an honorable profession. THis insistance that everyone must be good looking and wealthy disillusions children. If they can't easily get it all, why try to get anything?

Just my humble opinion.
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Which one are you behind again?
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Letting parents choose, or the governent choose or just who? At first you sounded like it should be the parents choice and you gave a rich person as an example of something outside of public school. Then you later moved on to say parents ARE the problem. And further on you mention forcing them to choose between work or school at the age of 10 or 11?
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Education in perspective
Patanjali 4th Mar 2007
Education is a thorny field.

Clearly, there does need to be a mechanism for evaluating teachers, but one not subject to whims of one person or some remote HR. Perhaps needed is a periodic evalution by a committee of:
- Principal
- Elected parent representative (must be a parent of a child at the school
- Elected teaching staff member
- Schools board representative (from whatever organisation actually pays the salary).
I think this would minimise the influence of any one person.

I know there is a lot of union bashing, but it all came about because many companies would generally get away with murder if they could (its amazing what megalamania strikes when lots of money is to be had). Just look at the death rate for South American indian harvesting rubber in the early days. Long hours in factories in the Industrial Revolution. The list goes on up up until today. However, some unions, because of their unique placement in some industries, have gained enormous power, while other workers, such as shop assistants, get poor protection because they are are typically working for small businesses, that are usually given a fairly free reign to treat people how they want by governments (under the mistaken belief that those businesses would suffer if they had to fulfil the same employer obligations as larger ones).
I think unions are like technology, they lift the bottom line, but should not (and cannot really) define the heights to which people should be able to reach.

As for principals, while they may be managers I think they are often given free reign in some areas that would be better centrally managed. I recently did some work for the Education Department in an Australian state. Some bright spark a couple of decades ago allowed schools to select whatever computers they wanted and mange them in whatever way they wanted. Well, in the present time, the havoc is being wreaked, with fractioned services and over half of the computers being unmanaged (that is, they must have someone actually physically install stuff on them rather than push it out to the desktop). That is a real problem given the need to maintain child protection standards across 1.4 million users (one in 5000 people on the planet, one in 20 in Australia, and one in five in the state).

Technology in schools should be managed as an enterprise, but allowing schools to decide some of their own business rules, but not in the technology layer (equipment and network). Also, the Education Department would save an enormous amount if it built its own computers. They would only need a few configurations tailored to their own circumstances, and therfore avoid the continual model churn of manufacturers trying to attract new customers. As a former tech manager at a computer manufacturer, I know how little it costs to make a computer. Only a few spare parts lines (and the associated reduction in permutions of drivers) would provide substantial savings and reduced repair turnaround times (board test jockeying is simpler). Also, they could design (or buy) their own OS build, fully tailored to their technology and their teaching environment, and not to the generalised marketplace of companies battling over the hearts and minds of children who they want to be their future customers.
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Interesting article
mlindl 18th Feb 2007
The anti-Jobs bias is there but imagine, he has actually said to one of his strategic
markets that they need to do better.

I disagree that Jobs runs Apple with an iron fist. I do believe he has a low
tolerance for people not doing their best. The results are clear.

If schools were managed well, they would do better. The problem for one of my
teaching friends is that they don't look at substance, they look at form. They
aren't interested in how great teachers teach and how bad teachers can improve,
they are mostly just expert at political harrassment. Very demoralizing.

I actually think similarly to Apple: they don't hire Macheads and I am now starting
to think people who really want to be teachers make potentially bad teachers.

If I could wave a magic wand, a teacher would have to have 15 years experience in
business before they could be a teacher and being a teacher would have to be a
more compelling job so we could get the top thinkers into teaching not the folks
that enjoy thinking for the sake of thinking.
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I'm sorry but following your logic
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
We have the worst doctors, engineers, programmers, business managers etc. etc. working in those professions, or at least those that really wanted to be doctors and engineers and programmers and business managers.

I think your logic makes some small degree of sense at one level, but ignores too many other facts and reality itself.


I disagree that Jobs runs Apple with an iron fist. I do believe he has a low
tolerance for people not doing their best. The results are clear.


Ok, please name one innovation that originated inside the hallowed walls of Apple that has proved itself to be something that has changed the world for the better. I can't think of any of hand. Each and every thing they do or sell is aimed at making a high margin profit and nothing more.

There was no "desktop for everyone" thinking at Apple. Ever. You have to wonder what would have happened if the PC and Microsoft had not come along. By all indications of reality, we'd be 20 years behind the curve and only the privileged would have computers in their homes.
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Sorry, I don't follow YOUR logic.
lilsim89 18th Feb 2007
Hmmm. 'If Microsoft hadn't come along, we would be 20(twenty, two decades, a quarter century behind) years behind the curve.'

You must be right. All of the major innovations like, eek, the mouse, was invented by Microsoft. Oh, no, it wasn't.

But wait! Microsoft had really looked above and beyond when creating Windows as a 'network aware' OS. Sorry, no on that one, too.

Maybe there was that GUI thing, right? No, that was Apple. Gosh, what was it that set Microsoft apart?

Oh, SECURITY!!

wink
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While I don't follow his Logic Either
sebastianlewis 18th Feb 2007
The GUI and the Mouse came from Xerox PARC.

Sebastian
When we talk about the GUI as an experience we know today, we are talking of a
commerially viable system; and for this Apple has to be given credit!

It's like when we talk of Cinema as we know it today, we refer to the Lumi?re Bros.
and not the cave dwellers of Altamira.

And FYI, if you really want the facts, the GUI and Mouse (as seems to be the
popular myth among wannabe tech know-alls) DID NOT 'come from' XEROX.
The mouse as well as the precursors to GUI were first designed at Stanford
Research Institute. XEROX created the first Graphics-based Interface for their
Research Computer (Alto) and later Apple used the concept and introduced the
first [commercial] GUI for the 'Personal Computer'/ the 'Desktop', when they
introduced their first Macintosh, the Lisa.
But I realize Apple is the one that popularized it. Xerox PARC was still where they got it from though.

Sebastian
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Why does that go to Apple?
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
When we talk about the GUI as an experience we know today, we are talking of a
commerially viable system; and for this Apple has to be given credit!



Why? I think it goes to Microsoft that brought to over 90% of the offices and homes around the industrialized world. It's not Apple's technology to own. Apple is currently running on nothing but government sponsored research. Money that came from the last 3 generations of taxpayers. I pay a *nix/Apple tax everything I get paid. You call that innovation? At least MS writes the vast majority of it's own code.


Apple has really done nothing for the propogation of computer access around the world. They have a black box product that ties machine and OS (i'm very confident in saying any company could build a decent machine working on one consistent piece of hardware, but I'm afraid it's too much lock in. most people want to be able to use the hardware of their choice and this is why Linux will over take Apple as second to MS in marketshare.)
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ok, be smug about it.
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
but "innovation" is not always the coolest technical component. History is littered with process changes and distribution techniques that are just as important as, say, the PARC gui that Apple "borrowed" and now Apple zealots like to claim as an Apple invention. (that mouse would be another like this one.)
Zealots like to brag about feats of technology but they don't get you anywhere without the skills to make them useful. Microsoft has dominated taking existing technologies (just like the Mac which is comprised of PARC, BSD, NEXTSTEP(a decision that killed BeOS) and various other technologies, none of which were invented by Apple ) and their own innovations and making an OS for the masses. Take Mac's cheap machine...1200...it's lacking in essentials to the degree it defeats the purpose of OS X. Can't bring in video in highest res, can't have a bigger screen, other video restrictions etc. For 1200, you can have a 17" super hi res monitor and Vista ultimate running on a 2GB machine. There's no contest.

MS strength is in building developer friendly environment that provides the best dev. platform on the market and tons of free tools and an extremely large population of developers to build new technologies and apps on top of Windows. It's also very network ready and virtually plugs into a windows network with AD and GP. Apple has this?

To be fair, feel free to list any Apple innovations or what it's done for the average consumer.
One of the most outspoken people against MS ahs even said MS has innovated as much as any other large techno
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That's easy
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
For anyone that's not a windows zealot to see. Microsoft copies Apple at every turn.
When Bill Gates saw the first Mac, in 1982, He knew that it was worlds above MS DOS.
So Microsoft copied it (although very poorly). Microsoft was close to being on par
with Mac OS 1 in 1995 (win 95). Since then Microsoft has been known to copy ideas
(and often steal code) from all of it's "partners". Now that's truly an innovation. Steal
from everyone. Or how about the Microsoft tax? It's on everything you buy, rent, etc.
If the company uses Microsoft products, they charge the customer a higher price due
to the Microsoft tax they pay.
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Rick Rick Rick
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
So Microsoft stole the gui that Apple stole? Wow. You make no sense. Ever hear of business Rick? I think MS did do a deal with Apple once for rights to Office(which Mac users cling to, to this day) for sharing some of the gui that Apple didn't create and wasn't theirs for the giving really anyway. But so goes business deals, made by Apple and MS. Remember too that MS had no viable competition at the time of the anti-trust hearings so don't be going on about "stealing" code.


You are the typical apple zealot that loves to say MS "copies" Apple. Copies what? Apple ahs never coded anyting to copy! And what you are referring to anyway is superficial pieces of the OS. You and other zealots never talk about the MS code base and kernel and dev. platform, which is all MS has ever claimed to create...a dev. platform to innovate on top of. Vista takes the dev. platform to new levels that don't play in your "MS is copying apple" small world. these are serious real deal technologies.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2093762,00.asp



speaking of taxes, what about the Apple/*nix tax? The one that's been coming out of every American's paycheck since Darpa and the government sponsorship that has paid for the PARC, Berkeley, Stanfor and other reserach and technologies. It created tcp/ip, risc processor, modern day Unix and predecessors. All at the expense of taxpayers. there's your tax.....not the fabricated one you apply to a business the same way one coudl apply it to every busines. The Apple ipod tax. Yep, everytime you buy a music player you are paying an ipod tax. Yesiree. Come on Rick, get real and have a clue.
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It's so easy
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
To get the windows Zealots in a tizzy. Mention facts that disrupt their "We love
Microsoft" mantra and you get them all worked up. You also forgot about the
Microsoft tax, due to falsifying the books. You know where Microsoft has been
collecting corporate welfare for the last 20 or so years. OK they're not the only ones
doing it, just one of the biggest offenders.
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Easier
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Apple is headed by a crook. He's already admitted to falsifying stock option dates....what more proof does anyone need. It's illegal, end of story. He'd look good in an orange jumpsuit btw. It's be better than either the all black star trek outfit he used to wear for maczealotworld, or the current day jeans too tight for an elderly gentleman look.

Maybe you should pay more attention to the criminals in your cult and not worry so much about the outside world. You don't live in it anyway, zealot.
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Perhaps you should elaborate
sebastianlewis 18th Feb 2007
There was no "desktop for everyone" thinking at Apple. Ever. You have to wonder what would have happened if the PC and Microsoft had not come along. By all indications of reality, we'd be 20 years behind the curve and only the privileged would have computers in their homes.
If not for Microsoft, we would be 20 years ahead instead of behind, and if not for NeXT being bought by Apple, we'd be even further behind then we are now.

Microsoft is at least 7 years behind if you were to compare it to Mac OS X, but if you were to go even further back, you would find that Mac OS X is really just NeXTstep with Mac OS Interface Elements, which places Microsoft more then a decade behind.

Here's what's sad, while Vista has a need for powerful hardware, and it has a nice shiny UI, it's still a Pig Wrapped in Glitz. Nothing evolutionary about it.

Apple does not make new ideas from scratch, they take great ideas, they improve them, and they turn them into an actual Product. Microsoft takes great ideas, demoralizes them, throws their weight in FUD (ever hear of DR-DOS?) and eventually comes up with a nice idea, and throws it into their existing slop, place a pretty ribbon on it and dress it up with roses, and call it a day.

Apple makes products, Microsoft rehashes existing ones.

http://iowaconsumercase.org
It seems I can't access the site anymore (requires authentication) but I have the transcripts from December 1st and December 4th at least, and a few Internal Microsoft Documents.

Sebastian
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oh, another Apple zealot.
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
who delights in putting down MS's technology while grandstanding that of Apple. Ever notice Windows users don't go around bleating like an apple zealot about their loyalty to one man.

I was talking in terms of internet proliferation, PC ownership and the evolution of the world. You are just talking about the fact Apple has ripped off the technologes it needs to have a "cool" interface. Sorry, I sometimes forget what's really important. Making Steve Jobs rich....my bad....of course.
Actually Apple is so far behind Microsoft in networking and client networking tools and developer resources and .NET 3.0, i won't venture to say by how far...but it's a lot. MS has known all along that glitz and glimmer don't win the OS contest.

I guess the proof in technology superiority comes with applications, that is why people buy computers, not to just marvel at the gui on their machine. ( i do think some apple zealots do this however....they have no real use for the machine as it really doesn't have any industry standard productivity apps, those they license from MS as always, but they just like having a shiny new Mac to make them "feel good" when they surf the shopping sites. ).

you talk aobut Vista's needs. Why not start at the basic user since Apple wants to compare their 1200.00 anti-mac. Basic Vista will run on machines up to 5 years old. You are being misleading and talking aobut getting the best out of Vista Ultimate. Any machine less than up to 3 years old can run Ultimate. And most times a cheap RAM investment is all that is needed if anything. You can get Vista Ultimate machine brand new for the amount of the Mac-Lite 1200.00 model that doesn't evedn support hi-res video. And Apples argument? Well, you have to upgrade hardware but you don't with a Mac, so buy a Mac? Sure, overspend by a grand on a powerbook pro and that has saved you anything? And you still need to get Office for Mac and other Microsoft tools to actaully do anything.


what does apple have to match, in reality, office 2007 of Sharepoint 2007 or Server 2007 or Server 2003 or Biztalk server or Groove server/client or .NET 3.0 and the foundation classes that allow for next gen internet apps or commerce server or SQL Server 2005...I could go on. What's their answer to the xbox? Small percentage of users that are geeks?


truth be told, the stats show Macs appeal mostly to people 50+, so I guess they do need to make a machine that is what you get and not very configurable less Granny forget how to turn it on.
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What the heck are you blathering about?
YinToYourYang-22527499 18th Feb 2007
You don't make any sense.
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Of course not.
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
ok. the other poster was trying to explain how Windows technology is 10 years behind that of a Mac. I was trying to explain (even though that's obviously and utterly absurd) that my orginal point has been MS and the PC has revolutionized the world. It brought computing to the masses so that most everyone in the industrialized world could afford a PC. That, in turn, has had a huge impact on the internet explosion of information and commerce. I guess that's a pretty good accomplishment. br.
My original statemnet was that Apple, based on reality and the history to date, w/o the PC and MS in the picture, would have stalled the PC industry in respect to the number of people owning computers in teh world. Only the privileged would own one.

btw, even Mac entusiasts on non-biased sites are easily calling Vista better than Tiger just in the Apple zealots terms of what makes a computer. The gui, ease of use and the way it makes the user proud to be using such a nice looking product. Of course, under the hood, Windows still blows Apple so far out of the water with productivity and dev. tools and outright usefullness across business and home use (the real value of a computer) that is' not even funny. Jobs even said last fall that Leopard would leapfrog Vista, so what does that say about the current version of OS X vs. Vista? I will bet that Jobs gets so desperate that he goes beyond attack ads and starts dealing with Dell and others possibly. I don't think OS X is robust enough to run on multiple PCs however. Anyone can write an OS to a specific hardware spec they control, but making it work with hundreds of models and configurations is something only Windows and Linux has pulled off to date and only Windows with commercial success. The proof of MS software worth goes beyond the over 90% of market using their OS and productivity tools. You could also measure it by the small Apple marketshare that cries collectively whenever a new version of Office is held up getting to the Mac. Another way you could measure the worth is asking yourself this: how many Mac owners purchase Windows to run on their Mac vs. how many Windows users purchase OS X to run on their PC. That would be most and none, respectively.
thank you.
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So you're saying?
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
That vista is better than a 2+ year old product? That's makes about as much sense as
saying a 2007 Honda Accord is better than a 2005 Honda Accord. I believe that it
was Bill gates that proclaimed that vista was the most secure OS you could buy,
attacking both Mac OS X and Linux. Wait he also claimed that windows xp was the
most secure OS ever written and we all know how that turned out. Again you
windows Zealots amaze me. One question, do you supply your own lubricant? I don't
think you can afford the MS lube!
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no Rick.
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Vista is over 2 years old. It was rewritten starting around 2004 using the same specs. The betas have been out for almost 2 years. How many releases have there been on top of "tiger" Rick? Remember Apple zealots call each 130 dollar Apple service Pack an entirely new refresh of the OS with enhancements etc. to date. When was the last one Rick? That is the date we need to use. Vista was available Nov. 30 2006.


I'm glad to see an Apple zealot admit that Vista is better than what Apple currently fields. congrats, that was mighty big of you. Hey, did you hear about the new File System Apple innovated for Leper'd? Oh shoot, that's right, they are stealing that as well. shoot. Well someday Apple will write some of their own code, won't they?


In case you were wondering, Microsoft has written every one of their OSes since NT 3. Apple has never written an OS.
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No Zealot
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
Vista is over 2 years old. It was rewritten starting around 2004 using the same
specs. The betas have been out for almost 2 years. How many releases have there
been on top of "tiger" Rick? Remember Apple zealots call each 130 dollar Apple
service Pack an entirely new refresh of the OS with enhancements etc. to date.
When was the last one Rick? That is the date we need to use. Vista was available
Nov. 30 2006.


Really, I thought Microsoft has been working on vista for the last 5 years. I do
agree that the vista beta was available for sale in 2006.

I'm glad to see an Apple zealot admit that Vista is better than what Apple
currently fields. congrats, that was mighty big of you. Hey, did you hear about the
new File System Apple innovated for Leper'd? Oh shoot, that's right, they are
stealing that as well. shoot. Well someday Apple will write some of their own code,
won't they?


Maybe about the same time Microsoft starts writing their own code? You know
instead of copying others code. What's the new file system from Microsoft? Cairo?
WinFS? Umm no it's still NTFS, which was partially written by IBM. It has been well
documented that Microsoft steals code, think Stacker.

Nice rant, but facts don't agree with you. Keep up the good work, Microsoft may
get you, you're very own blog here on ZDNet.
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Apple Zealotry 101
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Ok Class, pay attention to what Rick did so skillfully and full of zeal in his previous post. He was answering to the question: "when will Apple write it's own code?".


Notice Ricks quite zealot skills kick in and dodge the question by saying, as soon as Microsoft starts writing their own code.

Bravo zealot, bravo. Perhaps Apple has a place for you on their all-star shill team..


But until then, by using what you thought was a clever reply you admitted that Apple does not write it's own code. I know, everyone knows that but zealots rarely say it. This is a banner day for you Rick. Oh, Microsoft writes it's own OS code. So see where that got ya?

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Learning from the master
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
No one will ever beat the windows Zealots (look in mirror). So don't worry I will
never achieve your level of Blind Zealotry. It's not that your teaching isn't good, it's
just that you're level of Zealotry is not achievable by normal people

MS bought MS DOS off of Seattle Computing, IBM rewrote it to work on the IBM
PC. NT was a bad copy of OS 2 (IBM) and was Partially written by IBM. Mac OS was
written by Apple, as was PRO DOS. They licensed the concept of the GUI, not the
underlying code. NeXt used BSD (which is free due to the license). When Apple
brought back Steve (purchased NeXt) he brought the code with him. Meanwhile
Microsoft was busy stealing code form their "partners", and "borrowed code" from
BSD (among other) while not adhering to the BSD or GPL license. IE was written by
Spyglass, WMP was a knock off of Quicktime, windows messenger was a clone of
AOL messenger, etc. the list goes on and on.
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Stupid ZDNet
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
The above response was to the Zealot master xuniL_z. He is a valuable asset of
Microsoft. A Zealot on par with WinZealot and George Ou.
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this just proves it even further.
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
you are such a Mac Zealot and so wound up you cna't even reply to the correct post. Your zealot blood is pulsing and your hands are sweaty and you jump hard w/o looking to bleat out all of your zealot class learned statements, for the 5th time in this post.


calm down and take a big deep breath.



I like how you generalize as well. messenger was a clone of this and this was a clone of that. Those are generalizations dude. you are grasping in desperation. If NT is lame ripoff of OS/2 and IBM controlled the PC market, then yoiu tell me how Microsoft ended up on all of the machines and not OS/2? Oh that's right, Ms forces the OEMs to use their software exclusively forever. Ya' know, I'd say that's the sign of a business master, not what you try to spew. You see Rick, we in the U.S. work in a capitalistic society. The idea of a company is to make good deals and create great partners. You don't see ANY of the OEMs shrinking away from MS, and that alone shoots down everything you've bleated from your Job's shill school notes.
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Comming from a Windows Zealot
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
who delights in putting down MS's technology while grandstanding that of
Apple. Ever notice Windows users don't go around bleating like an apple zealot
about their loyalty to one man.

Your your entire rant shows that you take delight in putting down Apple's
technology while grandstanding that of Microsoft. Ever notice how Mac users don't
go around bleating like an windows zealot about their loyalty to one company.

what does apple have to match, in reality, office 2007 of Sharepoint 2007 or
Server 2007 or Server 2003 or Biztalk server or Groove server/client or .NET 3.0
and the foundation classes that allow for next gen internet apps or commerce
server or SQL Server 2005...I could go on


None of which was developed internally at Microsoft. The things you listed were
either bought or stolen by Microsoft. Then buy leveraging their monopoly in
Operating Systems, Microsoft created a monopoly in Office suites. Why does
Microsoft need to have different servers for internet and intranet duties? Only one
reason, to charge more. The CALs (Client Access Licenses) are the killer aspect of
any windows server. Most competitors top out at roughly $1,000 for unlimited
CALs, Microsoft cost over $45,000 for 1,000 CALs. If not for their monopoly, they
(Microsoft) couldn't charge these prices. I could go on about the abuses that
Microsoft has inflicted on the end users. But you windows Zealots are so willing to
let Microsoft abuse you on a daily basis.
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really?
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
None of which was developed internally at Microsoft. The things you listed were
either bought or stolen by Microsoft.


I think you should provide some proof of the "stolen" accusations and give evidence that none of these products were developed with or at Microsoft.


I say this because, obviously, Apple has never created anyhing. their old OS, stolen from PARC and NEXTSTEP and others. Their current OS, stolen from PARC, NEXTSTEP and BSD. Apple has provided zero innovation while Microsoft has helped create an environment for the world. The internet explosion happened on Windows, and it continues to. Apple? Well, some Mac zealots in between running windows, will run the Apple browser (that Apple ripped off), or crying because Microsoft is somehow holding up office 2007 from getting to the Mac.

Mac owners that run Windows - Most, Windows users that run OS X- none. I think that provides some light to the matter.
And .NET 3.0 and the foundation classes of Vista are something beyond Apple altogether.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2093762,00.asp



Better hurry zealot and try to stop the bleeding. Vista put a hole through OS X.
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Lies of a windows zealot
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
I say this because, obviously, Apple has never created anything. their old OS,
stolen from PARC and NEXTSTEP and others


Too bad history says different. First Apple licensed the concept of the GUI (and
mouse) from Xerox PARC. Microsoft copied what Apple licensed. Steve Jobs was
the head of NeXt computers (where NeXtstep came from). I'm willing to bet there
is some code copied from BSD in windows. IE was stolen from spyglass (MS never
paid the royalties for it's use). The only reason many Mac users use windows, is
it's forced on them by the pointy headed bosses. Most windows users are not
capable of running anything but windows. In fact I'd bet that 60% + think AOL is
the OS. So put them in front of any other computer and they'd be lost. Maybe
that's part of why windows has the most viruses, too many stupid users. Well
besides the poor design of windows. welding middleware to the core of any OS is
a bad design. Then you have Active X, the worst technical decision of all times.

.NET 3.0 and the foundation classes of Vista are something beyond Apple
altogether.


Sound like another attempt to force the Microsoft way, on the rest of the world.
Remember Microsoft knows better than the end users, what the end users want.
It's the Microsoft way or the highway. The Microsoft way it to "Leverage one
Monopoly to create another Monopoly".
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You called me a liar?
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Nothing you said is really different from what I said. And NextStep, no matter if Jobs was involved, was a combo of the Mach Kernel (Univerity project) and BSD. So looks like wherever Jobs goes, he looks around, picks the technologies he wants to use, steals them buys them, whatever, then brands them with his company's name. Way to go Steve.


However, what really blew me away was this bit of wisdom from you. Was this intended as a Mike Cox type of Apple blog? C'mon Rick.


Remember Microsoft knows better than the end users, what the end users want.
It's the Microsoft way or the highway.


Are you serious? You have to be joking. Lets see here

Proprietary system - Both Apple and Microsoft(MS writes it's own)

Hardware choices - MS let's you choose from 100s of hardware choices of all different shapes sizes and configurations. Apple- only the hardware that Steve Jobs says you can use with OSX.

Configurability - MS - very high. Apple - only the things Steve Jobs says you can configure.



man you are just trolling it hard today bud.
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It is painfully obvious that you are not a teacher and could not be a teacher. I've seen many ex-business people come in and think they can just hop into a classroom and teach what they know. It doesn't work that way. Just think of the boring teachers you have had in your life that would just drone on and on about their subject, putting you to sleep almost every day. Those are the ones who came from somewhere else and think they can just tell you what they know and you will be happy about it. The ones who do a good job are most often the ones who WANT to be teachers. Your idea that those people that want to be teachers are the worst is completely unfounded, un-researched, and idiotic.

I will agree, though, that teacher tenure is not really a good thing. There are many bad teachers out there that need a kick in the butt. I do agree that teachers can get lazy with tenure.

The money thing, though, is an absolute disgrace. Teachers don't make nearly enough money for what they do. How many of you think it is easy to manage 15 to 30 hormonal teenagers, in 4 groups for an hour and a half each, or 7 groups for 50 minutes each, all day long. On top of keeping them from killing each other, getting each other pregnant, or just destroying fragile young self esteems, try teaching them the important subjects that will shape their personalities and futures. Teachers don't make money for the world directly, but they allow you to make money for yourself and those around you. What would you do if you had never been taught anything?
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The unions fault?
Kyser Soze 22nd Feb 2007
Isn't the union supposed to represent labor? Aren't the working conditions the responsability of the unions? The system has become dependent on free labor, because the teachers provide it. Please don't use the childern as a excuse. They are not your kids, it's your job. Maybe if your union spent more time negoiating working conditions instead of pushing their social agenda and fighting eductional reform, teachers might get a better deal. But this is a free market economy and as long as education majors are a dime a dozen and don't actually have to know what they are teaching,just the delivery method, than it is a life choice. Deal with it and quit the "holier than thou cause I'm a teacher" act.
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Same old BS
Zoraster 18th Feb 2007
No one wants to place the blame where it belongs. Blame the Teachers, The Unions, The bureaucracy, etc.... But never do we hear the real problem. It is political suicide to place the blame where it belongs. Better to lose votes from a few teachers or Unions than to T-Off the real source. The real problem is in the home. 90% of what you learn is in the home. I deal with these homes on a daily basis and see that short of pulling the kids out of these homes and putting them in "Thought Camps" that it is truly near hopeless. Some may make it out of the dismal cultural malaise but not many. You could spend a million bucks per child and place Harvard Professors in each class room and it would make little or no difference. A household with no books, no interest in improving oneself, Drugs, Alcohol, Instability = social disaster.
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Too true.
Kyser Soze 22nd Feb 2007
No daddys in the home, single mothers or grandma or aunties raising the kids. No discipline at home and none allowed at school. Let's return corperal punishment to the schools, but require parents to leave work come to school and deliver it. Let's make school a privledge, not a right, and see how long it takes to straighten out. My old grandpa used to say everyone was good for something, even if it was as a bad example. Let a few people starve to death on the streets and people will again realize how thin the veneer of civilzation is and that life is a serious business. Sharpening the edge requires grinding off some metal.
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Jobs is right!
An_Axe_to_Grind 18th Feb 2007
The stock option jab was a low blow, zd can do better when it comes to journalist.
Wait, maybe you are a perfect example of what Jobs was ranting about.
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ZDNet has it out against Jobs
YinToYourYang-22527499 18th Feb 2007
They can't report the news, but have to inject vindictiveness regarding anything to do
with Jobs, Apple or Macs.

Is it to outrage readers and garner hits? Or are they invested in Microsoft so much to
be an unreliable source of unbiased information?
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...
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Are you blind?
xuniL_z 18th Feb 2007
It's to garner hits. Zdnet has been like a press hitman to Vista. Putting mere opinions by unknowns as headlines about Vista. They've headlined Vista "Problems" more than any single product since I've used this site, and they are usually purposely misleading in a national enquiresque way to get as many to read the story. I've noticed the Mac and Jobs hits as well, since I'm not a blind zealot.

but considering Jobs is under investigation for criminal activity, I can see where he'd get more attention.
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Re: since I'm not a blind zealot.
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
So you're a Zealot that can see? Interesting, if you could actually see there are plenty
of Pro MS articles on here. Vista has been 5 years in the making and is essentially a
service pack for xp. Abet a very expensive service pack. Microsoft dropped 3 of the 5
pillars of vista, so it's not by any means a revolutionary OS. I't just a very restrictive,
DRM/Spyware laden, Bloated OS. But you could see that, couldn't you? It has such
high specs, that to run it you're better off buying a new pc. Unlike Mac OS that runs
better with each upgrade on the same hardware. But you knew that too, didn't ya?
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Rick, make some sense.
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
service pack for XP


That's just crazy talk Ricky. You can do better than that. How about I say OS X is just a refresh of the PARC/NEXTSTEP/BSD systems. Wow. let's see. MS is a service pack of a current millenium product, OSX is a service pack from a 1970s system.

Ok, sounds about right I guess.
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I just love...
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
Getting the windows Zealots going. Seems I've hooked another one. You
compare an new core (OS X) as a service pack, while you consider a new GUI and
small code tweaks (vista) as a new OS? Can I get some of the drugs you're on?
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Apple zealotry 102
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
When you are on the verge of losing it and going into a major Apple zealot fit, turn that around and project it onto someone else, just like with the other lies

but you notice this one couldn't leave it at that, and tries to add another lie to the mix. (interesting. How do you call BSD a new core? It was the old core.)

Also you can tell when an Apple zealot is really losing it, they start claiming the majority of Windows users think AOL is the Operating System. You are out of touch, that's for sure. While you are sitting there admiring your idiot proof Mac, average users all around the world are building home networks with windows or linux, swapping out memory like it was a new keyboard and many other things. See, when you own a mac and you have to send it in for everything, less Steve Jobs comes to your house and beats the crap out of you and takes away your licensed hardware.
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It's all about the...
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
Advertising dollar. Guess who spends more at ZDNet? Microsoft! By the way
Paul Allen (formerly of Microsoft) is a part owner of Vulcan Ventures. Vulcan Ventures
owns ZDnet (unless they've recently sold ZDNet off). So there will always be a Pro MS
bias here.
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Do you know
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
Paul Allen well enough to make a statement about his integrity like that? If what you say is true, why aren't they running their website on Windows? Instead the use Linux. Do you suppose Paul Allen is mad about that?
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Jobs should shut-up!
mrmckeb@... 19th Feb 2007
He has never done anything good for education in the past (discounts on Apple products are a marketing ploy) so I say - "put your money where your mouth is!". Free iPods for all uni students?
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Gates does the same thing
Rick_K 19th Feb 2007
He has never done anything good for education in the past (discounts on Apple
products are a marketing ploy) so I say - "put your money where your mouth is!".


Like maybe giving windows to schools for a discount? Oh wait that's the "same"
thing. Well till you look below the surface. To get those discount you have to pay for
unusable licenses. Like buying windows licenses, for "Any Apple product with a G3 or
better processor". Those discounts don't look as good now, do they?
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What?
xuniL_z 19th Feb 2007
you just said MS forces schools to buy older macs and license Windows so they pay for it but it won't run on the hardware?
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Steve's Agenda
perryroyce@... 19th Feb 2007
>and that technology in the classroom isn't going to improve public schools until principals can fire bad teachers. He also talked about a textbook-free education system, using free online information like Wikipedia (but with more oversight) and freeing up money for investing in better technology for schools.

Not that hard to figure out what Steve in on about. Apple has lost the class room. He wants the schools to stop spending money on teachers and buy more Macs. Read the last sentence.
When the wifie and I were first married 38 years ago Apple was the only thing in the class room. Last year when she retired she had six PCs and one Apple. She used the Apple for a paper weight because it wouldn't run any of the stuff availible for teaching.
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Please Try Teaching
sthender 28th Mar 2008
As usual, people who have never taught are posting ignorant thoughts. True, required days of teaching are around 180. 7 hours? That's 7 hours of student contact, it doesn't include the two extra hours when the kids go home working on lesson plans, calling parents, looking for resources for creative lessons. The extra hours at home correcting papers as well. Then there is summer. Michigan just changed their social studies curriculum. Guess what I will be working on this summer. I will be creating my own text books based on resources I can find to meet the grade the level content expectations.
Now let's move into the real world instead of the television. Have you taught kindergarden? Do you even comprehend the responsibilites of teaching 5 year olds to read? Now lets throw in some other interesting factors like 3 kids being ADHD, 2 special ed., 7 coming from divorced families, 3 coming from homes where mom and dad are abusive to one another and only know how to deal with conflict through violence, 4 from families where mom and dad can't read and the only communications they receive is from the television. Oh yes, let's toss in the mandates that are required by schools to achieve. The ones that say Student A who has been read 100 times before starting school is to achieve as much as Student B who has been read to 10,000 times before starting school. I work for a rural school system. We don't have a curriculum director. We the teachers are curriculum directors. We don't have a counselor. We are the counselor and sometimes the parents. I love teaching and I am proud of what I do. But please, save the overpaid chat for the professional sports figures.

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