Sun to IBM: We're willing to talk again; Big Blue not interested
Summary: Updated: Sun Microsystems would reportedly be willing to resume takeover talks with IBM if Big Blue says it'll commit to closing the deal. Bloomberg reports the news based on two people familiar with the matter (Techmeme).
Updated: Sun Microsystems would reportedly be willing to resume takeover talks with IBM if Big Blue says it'll commit to closing the deal.
Bloomberg reports the news based on two people familiar with the matter (Techmeme). The two companies currently aren't talking and each one is waiting for the other to make a move. Meanwhile, CNBC reports that IBM isn't interested at any price.
That puts Sun in quite a bind.
Here's why Sun is so willing to talk to IBM again....
Fairly obvious why Sun would want to talk eh? But it's not all about the stock chart. There's another little problem: Sun doesn't have any other interested parties. Meanwhile, rivals are preparing campaigns to poach customers. See Dell's latest move---perfectly timed at the exact moment Sun announced its server refresh.
Update: Wall Street doesn't appear to be buying into Sun's prospects. In early trading, Sun spiked, but then quickly retreated. It's one thing if Sun wants to talk. It's quite another thing if IBM wants to talk.
More:
- As Sun's world turns (worse): The latest
- Report: Sun and IBM clashed over executive pay
- The IBM-Sun saga: Can McNealy let go? Should he?
- Sun following the IBM deal collapse: Customer confusion en route
- IBM’s potential purchase of Sun: Here’s why it makes sense
- And here’s why it doesn’t.
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Talkback
I hope IBM know what they're doing
on the yummy pieces, they still risk throwing
Java into years of uncertainty and customer
defection. And that'll hurt part of IBMs
business as well.
I bet this is a game Microsoft are watching
closely. Their .NET platform could be one of
the biggest beneficiaries of Java chaos. And
with that Windows servers.
I think it safe to say at this point that
JavaFX is a lame duck. Late to the game, smart
phone market shifted b/c of iPhone and now an
uncertain future.
Any takers for OpenOffice? Anyone want to pay
good money for guaranteed years of expenses?
It's open source so you it will be good
business. (not)
Microsoft could give a shit
I'm not so sure ...
Java IP is of no use to Microsoft
headache.
But a toothless (marred by uncertainty)
competitor isn't much of a competitor. It would
cause even greater defection to .NET and other
technologies.
For enterprises .NET will be the obvious
choice. And .NET can still take a lot of market
share before being considered a monopoly.
Laughable ...
Java ranked #1 in language popularity at the Tiobe index:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
... well ahead of VB and C#, which are at 5 and 7, respectively.
Dice.com job searches for Java: 8153 matches
Dice.com job searches for C#: 3804 matches
Dice.com job searches for VB: 1834 matches
= 5638 total
You get similar numbers when doing job posting searchs on Java, C#, and VB at Indeed.com, Monster.com, and Craigs List.
.Net has support from Microsoft and Novell (Mono). Java has support from IBM, Oracle, Google, SAP, HP, and yes, Sun.
And Java remains at the top, in spite of the Sun albatross hanging around it's neck.
So now that I've slapped you in the face with reality, backed up by actual facts, and proven your ignorance beyond a shadow of a doubt, care to add anything useful to the discussion?
Not so fast
q=java+or+j2ee,+.net+or+C%23&l=
See, when pinning the platform+language against
platform+language, C#/.NET comes out on top.
But that was not the point, as that's history.
The point is that uncertainty about Suns future
(they can no longer go it alone) will reflect
badly on the prospects of Java, and
<i>especially</i> nascent Java technology with
little to no backup from the rest of the
industry. Case in point: JavaFX.
Java (the language) is already severely lagging
behind the competition in development, both the
more agile like Ruby, PHP, Python and the
primary enterprise competitor, C#. The JCP has
grinded to a halt. Even though virtually
everybody else has seen the light with
closures, Java is stubbornly sticking to
elaborate and low-productive misconceived
"simpleness". Java is now considered a low-
productivity stack in many enterprises,
prompting them to flirt with agile alternatives
and .NET.
JavaFX is going <b>nowhere</b>. Understandably
nobody want to tie their future to a johnny-
come-lately tech with many components still
MIA, marred by technical glitches, next to no
industry support, severely lagging on OS X and
no future on the iPhone. And now with a
questionable future. Which Sun buyer would
continue JavaFX? IBM? Ha! they are only in it
for the servers and the consulting. Oracle? Ha!
They would only be in it for upselling.
Some decent points, but ...
Yes, JavaFX, while having some interesting ideas and qualities, is most certainly DOA.
But Ruby, PHP, and Python? All great languages that I'm quite fond of, but just how many (good) paying jobs are there out there for those languages? Just look it up. As the principle bread winner supporting my wife and two daughters, I prefer to priortize on technologies that have good market demand.
Closures seeing the light? Far from it. While I think closures, as well as the functional programming paradigm, have a great future, and are very interesting, they're far from being in large usage, or demand. At this point in time, Closures/FP are darlings in blogs and message forums, but I see very little use of it in paid programming jobs, or even free open source stuff. And people in the Java camp are very much split on whether or not to add closures - some are adamantly for it, and some are adamantly against it. Then look at C# - which has delegates and lambdas - both nice features. But again, I don't see tons of FP in real C# production code. And Anders Hejlsberg himself said that continually adding features has a cost in language size and complexity (even though he's all for adding features).
The point is, latest fashions don't always translate into practical, real-world usage. And regular, every day level programmers are only now truely grasping the Object Oriented paradigm, and you expect them to fully grasp, and fully properly utilize the functional paradigm? At this point in time, we're far from that.
"Java is stubbornly sticking to
elaborate and low-productive misconceived
"simpleness"."
But remember the common complaints about C++ complexity, due to miriad features? Java's strength comes from narrowing down what's supported, and thus making it more understandable for a larger amount of programmers, and more importantly, more maintainable and extensible over time - something that is of the utmost importance in enterprise computing.
Anyway, more cutting edge, "agile" features can be had from JVM supported languages like Groovy, Scala, Clojure, Jython, Rhino (Javascript), and JRuby.
I find that quite attractive. The big enterprise production code can rely on the stable, and more "simple" (feature-wise) Java language, but programmers are free to add more cutting edge, agile stuff with the other JVM supported languages - and integrate easily with the legacy Java stuff - because they all compile to the same byte codes and use the same Java libraries.
And as far as Sun's troubles go - ultimately, it's not relevant to the health of the Java language. Java is fully supported by IBM, Oracle, Google, SAP, and Red Hat, all of whom have major business investment in Java, and will always move it forward. Add to that the miriad open source projects based on Java, and the fact that it's GPL'd, and you have a formula for "no worries", in terms of the future of the language and platform.
I just wish Sun would hurry up and die, or get sold off, so that everyone can stop needlessly worrying, and fanboys of other languages/platforms can have one less reason to bag on Java.
One problem, free software needs sponsors
If Sun dies ...
Sun's death may be Java's gain.
If anything this could be what allows Java to succeed in becoming the next C/C++. There are far too many projects out there for it to just up and die and you certainly aren't going to see everyone start porting to .Net when you have so much money invested in non Windows platforms. If anything IBM will probably end up having a stake in Java but hopefully won't stifle it. With a company out of the way the community of developers may just be able to get what they want most out of the platform.
I don't know why you keep talking about JavaFX. Its dead just like Silverlight, AIR/Flex and all the other ridiculous RIA technologies. They are all just concrete implementations of buzz.
And as for Open Office...no one needs to pick it up...its open. I could see IBM picking it up however and merging it into their Symphony platform if not replacing it. I'd say Gnome would adopt is to compete with KDE but I'm sure Icaza will stop any thoughts of that.
Good points
programming language has to be tied to a
company to succeed but thats simply not the
case. C/C++ anyone?</i>"
But then I think of PHP. And shudder. It's an
abomination.
"<i>There are far too many projects out there
for it to just up and die and you certainly
aren't going to see everyone start porting to
.Net when you have so much money invested in
non Windows platforms.</i>"
I would not expect a single project to be
ported to .NET because of a temporal
uncertainty with Javas future. But the reality
is that most shops have both Java and .NET. And
with one of the platforms lagging behind (or
even unjustly <i>perceived</i> so) in
productivity - or developer appeal - could very
well push <i>new</i> projects more in the .NET
direction. Certainly there no doubts about the
.NET platform viability anymore.
"<i>If anything IBM will probably end up having
a stake in Java but hopefully won't stifle
it.</i>"
I agree that Java is much too big to simply
die. Too many heavyweights (IBM, Oracle, SAP)
have too much investment for that to happen.
However, that does not preclude an intermittent
uncertainty or even chaos if IBM acts too
bullish about this. Already the JCP have been
practically at a standstill for years. More of
the same and you'll see more developers and
more gurus leave for alternatives. Risk adverse
customers may develop a preference for .NET
during that period. Also keep in mind that Java
(the language) and the JDKs are also the
foundations on which other frameworks are
built. Already Microsoft is harvesting goodwill
and productivity gains from their LINQ
technology, which really does cut down and
simplify code dramatically (both DB code,
loops, XML handling, set/hashtable juggling
etc).
"<i>And as for Open Office...no one needs to
pick it up...its open. I could see IBM picking
it up however and merging it into their
Symphony platform if not replacing it. I'd say
Gnome would adopt is to compete with KDE but
I'm sure Icaza will stop any thoughts of
that.</i>"
It is only semi-open. Sun has failed to build a
community. The project is still driven by a
large team of Sun engineers. It is an
enormously expensive undertaking. Except for
perhaps IBM I just don't see who would be
interested in footing the bill for OO. It is
certainly out of Gnomes league. And with no
sponsor and no community, how will it progress?
It is still lagging the 800lbs gorilla, and a
small outfit would have a hard time just
keeping up with bugfixing.
.net has been losing ground to java for years
With tail between his legs, Ballmer will go to Sun to buy an expensive java license for windoze!
That would provide funds for Java development in the future.
Wishful thinking
Writing M$ and Windoze only reveals your age.
Sun already pressured $$$ from Microsoft. And
spend them unwisely. McNealy bought StarOffice
in a futile attempt at killing the MS Office
cash cow. It ends up killing his own company
and damaging open source reputation with it. Oh
the irony.
RE: Sun to IBM: We're willing to talk again; Big Blue not interested
I think McNealy shot Sun in the head ...
By acquiring Sun, IBM picks up considerable Intellectual Property but little else - except a shinking customer base for which they don't have to fight HP.
If HP doesn't want Sun, there is nobody left but Novell - and IBM could end up swallowing Novell & Sun together almost as easily as picking them off one-by-one.
Sun needs to be part of a large, service-oriented, organization to survive as an entity and only HP & IBM fit the bill.
Sun and Novell together represent a wealth of Intellectual Property but the value of that IP has been shrinking for years. Put that with IBMs considerable IP assets though and the picture changes considerably.
Microsoft could also benefit from the collective IP assets of Sun and Novell but why would they want to be in the hardware business?
Microsoft
collective IP assets of Sun and Novell but why
would they want to be in the hardware business?
</i>
And have multiple anti-trust headaches
(Java+.NET, StarOffice+OpenOffice+MSOffice) to
boot?
No, Microsoft will would love to see Suns IP
wither slowly into non-existence. They have
everything to gain from uncertainty about the
future of Java and OpenOffice. They can still
stave of antitrust concerns by pointing to the
competition, although it will slowly loose its
teeth.
Perhaps the story around OpenOffice is the most
important one. OpenOffice development is
<b>not</b> a community effort. Indeed Sun has
managed to repel potential contributors.
OpenOffice is a costly endeavor and if IBM
doesn't pick up the bill it could go very
wrong.
And being the poster child for open source
development a lot of organizations would have
to revisit the prudence of the open source
model if OO ends up on the community graveyard.
Microsoft has both much to gain from that:
Teaching defectors a lession without themselves
having a hand in it, future FUD about open
source and still a "skin" competition to stave
off antitrust concerns.
Split up Sun
IBM should acquire Sun in ALL STOCK deal
1. IBM acquires Sun in an ALL STOCK deal; diluting IBM common stock in the process, but conserving cash during the recession.
2. IBM pays a premium (but only in stock) that would value Sun at above $10 a share (the reverse stock split price). This saves face for Sun shareholders.
3. IBM commits to buying back enough stock in the open market to reverse the dilution over a period of 36 months. This saves the value of IBM stock, while conserving cash at the depths of the recession.
The result is that IBM obtains Sun's cash without initially outlaying any cash of its own. All of the cash is conserved for operating the companies during the recession.
There are increased dividend expenses, but the dividend expenses are reduced as the IBM stock is gradually bought back in the open market and retired.
From an operations standpoint IBM should create 4 new divisions:
1. Sun Server division -- combine IBM and Sun Unix servers on proprietary (Power & SPARC) chips
2. Solaris division -- combine AIX and Solaris under Solaris brand and market as industry standard Unix;
retain OpenSolaris as the open source version. Migrate AIX users to Solaris and encourage HP-UX users to move to Solaris. Encourage long run merger of Solaris and Linux, but don't rush it.
3. JavaSoft division - promote Java and OpenOffice.org software on all systems from cell phones to super computers.
4. AMP division - market MySQL data base as part of AMP (Apache, MySQL & PHP) stack on all operating systems Windows, Linux and Solaris (creating WAMP, LAMP and SAMP stacks) as entry level server applications. Promote Java based GlassFish/Websphere/LifeRay for premium high volume, more complex applications.
MySQL should be the data base of choice for web facing applications; IBM DB2 should be the data base of choice for all other server data base applications.
IBM should retain the IBM brand for servers based on Intel/AMD chips and offer a variety of operating systems (Windows, Red Hat Linux, Suse Linux, Ubuntu Linux, Solaris) running either natively or under virtualization software.
Jim Callahan
Orlando, FL
RE: Sun to IBM: We're willing to talk again; Big Blue not interested
McNealy/Joy clearly rank in the league of Perot/Watson (Ross Perot was once top saleman at IBM, fulfilling his first year quote in 2 weeks), Hewlett/Packard, Jobs/Wozniak, and Gates/Ballmer. All legends of our time and certainly of the computer revolution. However, unlike everyone else, McNealy/Joy started Public Domain style software sharing long before everyone else, while everyone else kept charging very large amounts of money for everything. If Sun withdrew all of its inventions from the Public Domain and began charging for everything, the Open Source effort would possibly completely collapse.
When McNealy is at Sun, it stays together and continues innovating. When Jobs is at Apple, the company innovates and stock rises. When Gates reduced hands-on at Microsoft, stock slid. He embodies the soul of Sun who is able to attract the top talent and perpetuate its existence.
Well Said!