Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Tough love: Linux needs more haters

By | July 18, 2008, 2:13am PDT

Summary: [The opinions expressed here are mine alone, and not those of Google, Inc. my current employer.] I’ve been spending far too much time reading a blog recently. Normally I dislike reading blogs, or as my friend from the IT News site “the Register” Andrew Orlowski calls them; “Wikki W**kers”. They are usually rather vacuous and the [...]

[The opinions expressed here are mine alone, and not those of Google, Inc. my current employer.]

I’ve been spending far too much time reading a blog recently. Normally I dislike reading blogs, or as my friend from the IT News site “the Register” Andrew Orlowski calls them; “Wikki W**kers”. They are usually rather vacuous and the pressure to write something, anything, to attract attention means there is very little worth reading. Note to potentially irate readers who level the same accusation at me, this is a column, not a blog (that’s my story and I’m sticking to it). Mainly because I don’t write often enough to qualify as a blogger.

However, the LinuxHaters blog is rather different:

Yes, it’s definitely a blog in that it’s published far too often to be worth reading every day, but it has a wonderful sense of humor and an acerbic eye for detail. It’s based on the idea from an old book, now available for free online, “the UNIX Haters Handbook“:

As you might imagine, “the UNIX Haters Handbook” is a list of reasons to dislike UNIX.  Concomitantly, the LinuxHaters blog does the same for Linux.

Reading the LinuxHaters blog is a wonderful way to waste an afternoon. The premise behind it is that Linux is so awful that the blogger must rant about a particular problem they have had with the operating system, and describe it in great detail at least once per day. Every reply is labeled a “flame”, and the people responding don’t seem to know (or maybe they just don’t care) that the whole blog itself is a way to goad fanatical Linux supporters into attacking the author. Usually they complain that the author just “doesn’t get it” as to why Linux really does work well in this particular case. I must confess I enjoy reading the replies sometimes more than the blog posts themselves. Even my office-mate here at Google who really should know better couldn’t help himself from responding in the comments to a particularly accurate and sharp post on the inadequacies of the Linux Standard Base project.

The reasons that these screeds of hate work so well is that the author really knows what they’re talking about. He or she is extremely knowledgeable and able to go into the details of every problem, sometimes as far as analyzing the underlying code and pointing out the problems (thank goodness for Free Software). They’re right of course. Some of their complaints are amazingly well written, detailed, and are undoubtedly correct in pointing out flaws in a Linux distribution.

However, I would venture to say that the reason the author spends so much time writing about their frustrations with these systems is that underneath all the invective, they really love both UNIX and Linux.

As Elie Wiesel said, “the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference”. LinuxHater really doesn’t hate Linux, despite the name. No one takes that much time to point out flaws in a product that they completely loathe and despise. The complaints are really cries of frustration with a system that just doesn’t quite do what is desired (albeit well disguised). A friend pointed out to me that the best way to parse LinuxHaters blog is to treat it as a series of bug reports. A perl script could probably parse out the useful information from them and log them as technical bug reports to the projects LinuxHater is writing about. Deep down, I believe LinuxHater really loves Linux, and wants it to succeed.

This week, LinuxHater is spending all his or her efforts complaining about KDE, the “K-Desktop Environment”, one of the two most popular desktop environments running on the Linux kernel. This is like shooting fish in a barrel for such an accomplished bug-reporter as LinuxHater. Of course it’s brought out all the staunch KDE defenders, who try and refute all the points LinuxHater is making, but they’re missing the point. LinuxHater is giving feedback on the usability of KDE. Technically, KDE, like most Linux software, is excellent. The usability is what needs work. I personally use the other popular Linux desktop environment, Gnome. I can’t wait for LinuxHater to get his or her teeth stuck into criticizing Gnome; it will help make my desktop nicer and easier to use in the long run.

A specialty of LinuxHaters complaints is in the interfaces between different applications on Linux. One of the strengths of Free Software development is that it is parallelizable. Different teams can attack different problems simultaneously to move the complete system along much faster than a traditional integrated proprietary system. I can benefit from the advances made in Microsoft file format compatibility from the authors of OpenOffice whilst the coders and users of OpenOffice can benefit from the advances in Microsoft networking compatibility made by the Samba Team. Usually we’re not even working in the same company, let alone waiting for the same management team to set our priorities. However, this can also be a great weakness when it comes time to glue all these disparate applications together into a coherent system. Unless proper care is taken the wonderful OpenOffice Microsoft file format compatibility means nothing if OpenOffice can’t transparently use the Samba code to load those files from Windows servers. It’s lack of attention to this kind of integration detail that sometimes lets Linux down.

What shows that Linux can be amazingly easy to use is the recent announcement by Garmin that their Nuvi GPS navigations units run Gnome on top of Linux. I recently bought one, without even knowing it was Linux based and found the user interface intuitive and elegant. This is Free Software at its best, rock solid reliability and ease-of-use to rival Apple. It can be done.

I’m hoping LinuxHater will soon turn his or her attention to usability and integration issues with the software I help to write, Samba. We need this kind of detailed analysis of our flaws in order to keep making the software better. The Samba Team also have a thick skin, so he or she can have as much fun making complaints as they like.

I can’t help being reminded of the Mindcraft benchmark in 1999. Sponsored by Microsoft it was supposedly an independent test of the relative speed of Linux vs. Windows NT servers. Unsurprisingly for a Microsoft sponsored benchmark, Windows came out best. After initially being annoyed at the results, Linus Torvalds eventually realized that Linux’s failure in the rather contrived benchmark conditions should be treated as a bug report, however unusual the submission mechanism, and he and the kernel hackers promptly fixed it. I consider the LinuxHater blog in the same positive way, plus it’s a really fun read. What more could you ask of bug reports ?

In the long run, we all need to become LinuxHaters in order to give our favorite software the tough love it needs to become as popular as I think it deserves to be.

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RE: Tough love: Linux needs more haters
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
Awesome information, I might thank to creator becaus i've discovered a large number of interesting info. I am going to subscribe football shop to this blog. Best needs happy
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Good article, Jeremy
Chad_z 18th Jul 2008
I'm currently setting up our company network on Linux and will likely be bumping into some of those Samba issues. Complicated by having a mixed OS environment on the client side.

Yeah, that's going to be fun.

Nice that Google has taken an interest in Samba, that'll raise the barn in a hurry.
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Perfect Case in point
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
I need to set up a POC server to run the Resin Java Server in conjunction with the *AMP stack. The goal is to sell the idea to Management as a viable alternative to Windows. I am doing this on my own to promote Linux here at work. A friend recommended Ubuntu after having problems with Centos and I have heard good things about it so I snagged a Ubuntu Desktop VM from the Ubuntu site a few minutes ago.

http://isv-image.ubuntu.com/vmware/

I set it up and went to add the packages that I needed and Synaptic gave me a bunch of 404's saying that it could not find the packages I needed. All I was trying to do was set up Apache, Mysql and PHP. And I couldn't so it using the system defaults.


The first person that tells me that I should have gotten the server version gets a gold star. Why? Because I want a gui. That is what *I* want. I am not a sys admin and I don't like doing everything via the CL. Is that too much to ask?
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OK - here it is
Freebird54 18th Jul 2008
You should have gotten the Server version happy

Of course, then you have the large task of

apt-get ubuntu-desktop


which will install the entire GUI system for you....

or kubuntu-desktop I suppose, if you prefer KDE.
Having done it both ways (normal install, then *AMP - and server then GUI) I recommend the server version for most people!

Do I still get the gold star?
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No gold star for you
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
Because I did not know that. I don't know Ubuntu or apt. I am not from the Debian camp. I know Yum and Up2Date. The fact that I have to know several package managers to update a single OS is pretty pathetic.

Actually all I care about is if it works. Call it silly but it is a "productivity" thing. I am a developer so I focus on code. I could care less what OS it runs on as long as it works.
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Not a single OS
seanferd 18th Jul 2008
Common mistake. There are many OS distributions based on the Linux kernel, not one single unified OS. Some do share more things in common than others, granted.

I realize that this doesn't help you now, but it may in the future, provided you are still interested in other GNU/Linux implementations.

I would suggest a light reading of the basic help, FAQ, or man pages before doing an installation for any Unix or Windows server.

Good luck with your *AMP.
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Unbeleavible
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
I am trying to bring linux into my workplace. To further the cause of OSS and I get insulted.

I have been using Linux for years. I have a new job... total win shop. No nix Sys admin to lean on. I write code. I have more than enough to keep me busy to 10 life times.

I just want Linux to work out of the box. I don't need to do any light reading. I need Linux to WORK out of the box. PERIOD.


I have been using XP for years. It just works.

I don?t love it but, it just works. I have been able to run every piece of software that I have ever needed to run in order to do what I need to do for the last 5 years. It just works.

I will repeat this one more time: It just works.

That is all I care about. The fact that it works and that I can get my work done. In fact 99% of all people that use computers use them for one thing: To get their **** done. PERIOD

Linux is not free. In terms of total cost of ownership Linux is WAY more expensive than XP.

It does not run QuickBooks, or TurboTax or any of my video game or Office or Photoshop, or DreamWeaver with out having to spend hours to get it to run under Wine (if they run at all) therefore it is not free. It does not connect to my BlackBerry therefore it is not free. I bill at $95-$150 an hour. If I spend more than 2 hours trying to get any of my software that runs on Windows with out a hitch to run on Linux then Linux is not free.

Repeat after me: Linux is not free.

Windows Server 2003 Standard costs ~$800. If I have one bout of dependency hell that lasts more than a day and guess what: Windows Server 2003 is cheaper than. No really. Linux is not free.

Seriously, how many production web/app servers at ISP?s do you think use package managers to set up their servers? None that I would do business with, or entrust them with my apps, that is for sure.

I am a coder. If my code does not work out of the box, the first time them I hear about it. Big time. My hold my OS's to the same standards that I and my customers hold myself. I hold OS's to the same standard, out of the box, first time.
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I'm sorry, I lost the track there.
DannyO_0x98 18th Jul 2008
You want to set up a server using Linux in a Win only
environment and you don't want to step up into an
administrator role because either it invalidates the
experiment that the Linux server administers itself or it
may involve learning things you don't care about? It
sounds like you've set yourself up to fail.

Since I did evangelize Linux to a small business a few
years back (file serving, database/web app servers, one
desktop for a owner who hated computers but had to have
one [she liked SuSE and preferred it to Windows when she
had to switch after the company was bought out]), I took it
as obvious that I'd be the first and only one to get
questions and if I dodged the homework that that might
entail, my project would die instantly.

Servers are more complicated than clients and take more
attention and administration to get the setup right. It's my
observation that this is true for both Windows and *nix. If
what you really wanted is a httpd service is what you were
really going for, get a Mac, apache is installed and
configured out of the box and is activated via a check box
in the sharing preferences.

As to setting up new services on a Linux server, yes, you
would use a package manager or compile from source and
edit the config files, or pay someone to do it. If you pay
someone, they're going use the package manager or
compile from source. Besides being a security
commandment that the administrator only installs the
services to be run, Linux is a very versatile performer in
the server room and off the shelf systems make no
assumptions about what services you will be running.

I understand, we all have lines at which something
becomes too much bother. Refusing to care about when
apt-get is the call seems to be your line and you are
entitled to pack it in when you want. It really doesn't
matter: if the goal was to show that Linux could be
introduced, others have already shown it. If the goal was to
show that Linux is turnkey for web services, sorry, it isn't
and I wish I could set straight the folks who misinformed
you. If the goal was more ambitious and promised your
company a more interesting benefit then you better get
the help of someone who is willing to work through the
admin problems, because non-trivial things are not
executed trivially, a lesson I would have thought a coder
would have learned long ago. Good luck.
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Um, no insult intended.
seanferd 9th Aug 2008
And I don't do OS as religion, so I didn't mean to sound as if I were pontificating. I don't remember saying anything about the TCO of Linux for a given use, and if you want to run Windows programs, I would suggest using Windows to do that. If software that runs on Linux doesn't provide the functionality you need, or no one likes to use a program other than one with a big brand name, don't use a Linux or any other OS.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that no one ever had to look up anything for information on how to do something under Windows.

Something to consider if you want a LAMP server to work out of the box: get a box with LAMP in it. If you wanted to have IIS work out of the box, would you buy Vista?

Seriously, I am not trying to be snide here, but I don't buy your argument, and I don't understand why you didn't go with a Windows Server in the first place, considering you want to run apps written for Windows, and you appear to have a high comfort level with MS software. Use what works for you and your shop.
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Re: Not a single OS
Vinny_z Updated - 9th Dec 2008
Yeah, read the man pages...then go ahead and tuna fish. The man pages are as useless as the O/S. More so.
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Here's the command, Einstein
Chad_z 18th Jul 2008
Go to Applications > Accessories > Terminal

Type:

sudo tasksel install lamp-server

Followed by your admin password.

If you get 404's check your network proxy configuration. Some Windows shops block access to .deb repositories.

I ran that on a stock 8.04 Hardy desktop and it installed as fast the internet connection would carry the download.

After that you'll have to configure Apache, but that's an Apache issue, not Ubuntu.

Took me all of five minutes of research to find that process. It's not Ubuntu's fault if your proxy of firewall blocks access to the download repositories.
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Here is the command for XAMPP Douche bag
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
Click.
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No...
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10532-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=49864&messageID=934900&start=-9833


Sorry. 1/2 of them were 404. Happened on two boxs on two networks. Same packages same time.
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A gold star!
elderlybloke 8th Aug 2008
Gold star 1st class to you.
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I just did exactly that this am
Chad_z 18th Jul 2008
I put a LAMP stack on a desktop installation. Opened up a terminal and entered one command. It took 20 minutes, but only because the internet connection was slow. I had to enter the MySQL master password and that was it. Everything else worked out of the box. Apache2, PHP 5 and MySQL 5 on a Ubuntu 8.04 standard desktop. Even set up var/www as a web root.

Not only did it install, it was fast. Those pages pop. Even running fairly large queries the CPU usage barely moves.

Sure that wasn't a proxy or firewall issue? Because all the components were right where they were supposed to be.

OSS is the way computing was meant to be.
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Not a fire wall issue
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
~1/2 the apps where there for downlaod. The rest were 404.
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The new Linux Mantra: It Just Works
Duke E. Love 18th Jul 2008
Yeah right....That will be the day.
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Actually...That is the mantra
robertandrade@... 19th Jul 2008
Well I have to say that I run a Linux server for files, web, firewall and guess what...It works right out of the box. I have set up Linux as a DHCP and a Domain server...Guess what. It work. Oh and I also use multi-os's within this domain and a few flavors of Linux...No Issues.

As far as coding I have to ask what language you code in and what platform you code in and for?

Repeat after me....Linux is free!!!!!!!!!!!!

Every version of Linux I use I have not paid for...ever so I am not sure just what cost except time and if that is a concern for you then stick with what you know but at least come out and say it.
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WTF?
Duke E. Love 19th Jul 2008
As far as coding I have to ask what language you code in and what platform you code in and for?

Why? What does that matter? Do you need a bar in order to measure how you or I rank (or is it a matter your self worth)? Seriously, all you are looking to do with a question like that is see how you and I stand. Only an insecure person would ask a question like that.

I work on LAMP, and Win.

Java, PHP, CF, ASP 3, T-SQL, CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSL, X(HTML). Picking up on Groovie and Python cuz all the cool kids are doing it.

Time is money. If I cant get it work it is not free. Period.
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Is this "ye" in disguise? (nt)
n0neXn0ne 20th Jul 2008
devil
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Disturbing
Duke E. Love 21st Jul 2008
I don't know what is most disturbing. The fact someone posts here so often that you can pick out the nuances of their post or that you have spend so much time here reading their posts.

If so quit posting/Responding and go *learn something*. ZDnet teaches you NOTHING. Most of it is watered down sensationalist IT CRAP meant to pander to you lizard brain. Go read Info World or developer.com
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Just a thought...
PinkFloydYoshi 9th Dec 2008
I know this is going to sound a bit of an easy question so forgive me, but did you sync the repos before installing stuff? ("apt-get update")

Another distro does the whole 404 messages when I haven't synced the repos in a day or two, stuck it in cron so I didn't have to do it manually every time I wanted to download and install something.

I'm a Linux sysadmin so I've had a fair bit of experience with Linux in the enterprise. I can't recommend a full blown desktop environment for a server. The reason the server version is better is because there is hardly anything running from the get go. Yeah, all it gives you is a command prompt but from there, just "apt-get install openbox gdm" and it'll go fetch everything you need to run a small, slim desktop environment and not have the desktop environment itself using up half your (probably really expensive server's) resources (Have you seen the prices HP are charging for their FBDIMM RAM for their DL*** servers!?). You can also do "apt-get install ubuntu-desktop" but that'll turn Ubuntu Server in to the Ubuntu Desktop CD including all the bloat.

I used to use the JeOS (Just Enough Operating System) builds of Ubuntu as I run an ESX server farm where resources per server are more valuble than anything else (apart from budget of course) but have since switched to Arch Linux because it uses even less resources and it's even easier to look after (Not to mention set up, when almost everything is in a single file). Again, drops you in to a command prompt after install but getting a GUI up and running is as easy as "pacman -S openbox xorg gdm hwd" and just a few minor commands to get it working. Once you've got it going once without any specific servers (Apache, VMware Tools, CUC) on VMware Infrastructure it's just a simple case of turning it in to a template and you can deploy new servers in seconds. On physical hardware, just ghost the server. Not as convenient as VMware but nowhere near licensing costs for VMware Infrastructure! All that, or you could just whip up a script that installs the GUI's innards for you. Doing it the first time is the adventure, after that, you can choose how to make it easier in the future (scripting, imaging, etc)

All this said, there are things that Windows just does better. Active Directory and the whole Group Policy system is just spot on. The only problem is licensing costs and making sure you're properly licensed, which also costs in consultancy.

I spent a week a short while ago building up a tiny distribution which booted straight in to Firefox and connected to our Citrix XenDesktop servers directly over the network without any user interaction in the slightest. Saved us replacing 380 workstations for a little while longer(and possibly thousands in refreshing everything in one go)! Linux is an amazing tool, it's just understanding how it all goes together, and then forming it in to your needs and desires. I tried for 16 months to get Linux in to our enterprise, and now I've succeeded. Doesn't mean I haven't hit my fair share of pet hates though. Samba (client) has given me issues in the past, but probably due to the strange things I was trying to do with it.

Good luck!

As per the article, It's accurate. You don't spend hours, days, months, years pouring over something you can't stand (I lasted 5 months before I finally had enough at my first employment, never again). The only way you're going to get things to change (Hopefully for the better) is to complain (even if it is to the disgrace of others). I love (constructive) criticism, I use it to improve on things I do. Without it I'd still be doing some of the horrific things I used to do way back when I was at college.
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Spot on. Always a pleasure to read (nt)
BanjoPaterson 18th Jul 2008
....
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Jeremy, how *ironic* you would post this HERE.....
xuniL_z Updated - 20th Jul 2008
the land of the Windows haters. Several of the apple and linux bloggers here write MS hate pieces regularly. This is nothing *new* only new to Linux. Come as a shock?? You've been oblivious to the slashdot, zdnet et al Windows haters...i surely hope not, it's been going on for ages.


But this brings up a *wonderful* point that I've always suspected. The aforementioned bloggers and the posters that show up here daily to post nothing but windows hate...They actually LOVE Windows and are crying out.


The huge difference is most of these people haven't a clue what they are talking about and post mostly lies and not knowledgable information. How might that change your theory? Perhaps we end up with Jealousy in this case. And that does include you as I've seen you take your shots at Windows....Wait, you are knowledgable, therefore you secretly Love Windows!! There it is....probably why you reverse engineered Windows code for your project.


*edit 7/20/2008 11:54 Sorry Banjo....this was intended to be posted to the story. My apologies
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No worries.
BanjoPaterson 20th Jul 2008
...
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You made the connection for me, thanks. There was something odd about that blog and you nailed it. Part of what masked the difference between TLHB and many other rant-based blogs was the foul language. It seemed like all the other potty-mouthed opinion-based blogs founded on ignorance. But this one is based on knowledge like you said. I did formulate a working theory though. I think we're seeing some of the results of Microsoft's Linux Lab.
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Trust me mate
Kaiwai Updated - 18th Jul 2008
You made the connection for me, thanks. There was something odd about that blog and you nailed it. Part of what masked the difference between TLHB and many other rant-based blogs was the foul language. It seemed like all the other potty-mouthed opinion-based blogs founded on ignorance. But this one is based on knowledge like you said. I did formulate a working theory though. I think we're seeing some of the results of Microsoft's Linux Lab.

If you want to meet some of the biggest haters of Linux, look no further than ex-Linux users themselves. Not the ones who used it for 3 months and left - oh no, I'm talking about people like me who used it for over 13 years and have given up.

Look around, who are the ones who advocate Linux on this forum - they aren't the old timers. Anyone recognise the honey moon period of an OS switch?
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Can you name any?
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 18th Jul 2008
I am not flaming, I am honestly curious. I only have 11 years of Linux under my belt full time (and yes, circa 1998, at times it was tough), was Solaris before that. I would honestly like to know who after 13 years dumps Linux and where did they go? I can see a case for OS-X simply that they are tired of being geeky, or even given up computers entirely. (I am probably getting close to that myself, there is too much fun to have in the real world).

Anyway, honestly, not a flame, I would like to learn more about this.

TripleII
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Easy
Kaiwai Updated - 18th Jul 2008
I used to hang out in comp.os.linux.advoacy for several years. It has pretty much died down into nothing; contacted some friends of there who used to be fierce Linux advocates - Linux or death type people. Well, its interesting how time can changes ones perception on things.
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This happens, may not mean all.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 18th Jul 2008
Just Linux used to be the place for newbie help. Over time, it is still somewhat active, but nowhere near it's heydey. Now it Linux Questions many moved to. I think this happens a lot. I can certainly see why a newsgroup has tapered off. With RR and many other ISPs now not even providing newsgroup service, ...

Anyway, thanks for the info.

TripleII
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Not only that, but . . .
JLHenry 20th Jul 2008
AS the Linux community itself gets older, the fires of youthful advocacy die down, too.

The older I get, the more likely I am to talk about a problem rather than march in the streets because I am upset about it.
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to be honest. I never thought the "freedom of software" as a mantra and call to arms was even anything more than a bit crazy, let alone noble. The level of hatred in that realm seemed far too intense for the realities.


I guess I just see too many real injustices in the world that are affecting people in much more horrible ways that can't have enough advocates and a people who care.


So when i read about the latest death threat to someone that cracked OSX, I can only wonder where the world is headed.


Thankfully we have true caring professionals building systems that help people with no emotional attachment to one system because that is ignorant when the end product calls for the best tools for each job.


Nothing said here was aimed personally at you.
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Marching to victory
elderlybloke 8th Aug 2008
If I could still march I would be out there shouting away.
Must go now , time for more pills
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TripleII.....are you serious?
xuniL_z 20th Jul 2008
You don't think there are ex Unix/linux folks at Microsoft right now? Or Apple or Adobe or Google?

Yeah, Google uses linux but that's really irrelevant and just their choice of system and syntax.....the small stuff.


You just seemed to find it almost unbelievable that someone would ever decide to move on from Linux, maybe seeing it going in a direction they don't want to be a part of anymore.

I can't believe you'd feel that but i'm guessing you'd never wonder why a long time adobe coder or a Microsoft veteran would move on.


Anyone who thinks they can be assured they walk the high road based on their *own* thoughts and observations are quite honestly fools. There is corruption in every human heart, to some degree, on earth.

There is corruption in every organization, every company, every government in the world w/o exception.


Those who start claiming the high ground based on human criteria of their making are surely allowing the truth to be hidden from them.
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Never, not one, ever. Working for 18 years now.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 20th Jul 2008
I know of nobody who has ever used Linux, or Unix that has gone back to Windows as their primary OS. Many use it in parallel. I am not being facetious, or sarcastic. I am talking about those who know unix (basically any telecom engineer, which I work with hundreds, so that may be the reason).

I am not talking about those who try a live CD for 20 minutes, say it sucks and go back to WIndows.

I CAN certainly see and have, over the years, many colleagues who move to Windows shops, and certainly, many who move to Windows, that's economics, but that doesn't mean they don't still miss/use *nix.

Anyway, of the 30+ family and friends who I have converted, none have gone back to Windows. Likely, they simply don't care, it just works. Absolutely NONE of my colleagues who use my laptop image at work go back to Windows.

Keep in mind, I and all my colleagues don't work in a Windows world.

TripleII
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Well I've been using Linux for just over 7 years
tracy anne Updated - 18th Jul 2008
Am I still in that honeymoon period?

I use Linux exclusively for personal use (I don't have a single Windows OS on any machine), and Windows, Mac and Linux for business use, mostly Windows, which I've used for 15 years, if you count Windows 3.x, before that I used MSDOS, CP/M and a variety of Mainframe systems but primarily WANG and DEC RSTS/E.

Now which OS do I prefer, well that's Linux. Why, well the good points outweigh the bad points, unlike Windows where the Bad points definitely outweigh the good points, and by a wide margin. As for the Mac, well I use it from time to time, it's not anywhere near as intuitive as the Apple Marketers would have you believe.

Why do I use windows at all, because I currently work for a company that develops Windows based software. Most of my days are punctuated by frustrations that are the direct result of the underlying system assumptions, frustrations I never face when doing software development on Linux. It's really that simple.

I would recommend Linux to anyone (and in fact all of the people I've set up with Linux are happily doing all the things they want), the problems can be, and almost always are, worked around, either by giving it some good thought beforehand and buying appropriate hardware, or there will invariably be a fix somewhere. Yes those problems should not exist, and those who are in a position to fix them should be working like maniacs to fix them, but in most cases they are not show stoppers, unless you have some very specific and out of the ordinary requirements.

In my experience Windows which comes pre installed works well, to a point, then the gotchas start to get you. So in the long run it's take your pick face the gotchas up front an ddeal with them with Linux, or face the gotchas as they start to reveal themselves down the line with Windows. I'll take the up front gotchas, I have more control over how I deal with them.
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Please be more specific.
xuniL_z 20th Jul 2008
I worked with Unix for 10 years, both in systems administration and programming and also sys admin on Novell netware. I've loaded linux, played with Linux and the sites now use oo.org on some desktops until office 2007 is rolled out.


I've now been exposed to the Windows environment for several years (although I didn't realize Windows had anything to do with post, but get a Linux post, linux users and you are sure to hear about how much better the people that use linux and the OS itself is...)


But I find a few of your comments to either show how this site is very hypocritical and in another case my experience doesn't match yours.


I would recommend Linux to anyone (and in fact all of the people I've set up with Linux are happily doing all the things they want), the problems can be, and almost always are, worked around, either by giving it some good thought beforehand and buying appropriate hardware, or there will invariably be a fix somewhere. Yes those problems should not exist, and those who are in a position to fix them should be working like maniacs to fix them, but in most cases they are not show stoppers, unless you have some very specific and out of the ordinary requirements.




You could replace Linux with Vista in this paragraph and it would still be valid, although Vista is further ahead in the "fixing" category. But with that said, have you noticed the bashing Vista has taken here and elsewhere from the Linux camp (for one) when their OS of choice is in no better and realistically in a worse position.

Is it marketshare and MS is required to rollout perfection I wonder. As you know, any other time marketshare is a "myth".





Now what are the "gotchas" you are talking about...the things that Windows does down the road that it doesn't do up front or in the first month let's say ??


My sites enjoyed a solid environment, compared to anything available at the time with NT 4.0 server and 3.5 clients. Not perfect but a good all around Network OS and client pair.


They made the move from nt4 directly to server 2k3. Very solid, 99.99% uptime in my several years. I only see more and more oppotunities to further enhance system administration esp. using AD/GP. A snap to setup and gain granular control over the entire network, WSUS (free) does a magnificent job at handling patch updating, and what is left is a plethora of tools and opportunities that are seemingly endless. Couple that with the low cost of administration (I work for hospitals with admin nowadays on a variety of projects but the HIS depts are run by IT generalist by and large. A relatively very small payroll cost compared to other systems) and the fact it's a pay once proposition then not another dime for as long as you want to stay at a certain server level. A 5 year period is almost always cheaper with Windows as other sites pile up either huge payroll costs or annual consultant and programming outsourcing costs that usually make the windows deal look sweet. Cost is not a factor. Linux is far from cost free, and sometimes that means lost business when a project goes south.
Wiuth windows you get economy of scale and no worries about the thousands of people that own the system you are running (could be 100s of thousands) via copyright. One copyright is often the best road to insure any projects/applications you use don't get dropped or forked

What are the gotchas?
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Opposite experience
daboochmeister 21st Jul 2008
I don't have any axe to grind, but our experience has been much the opposite. Running ~150 blades, 2/3 Linux, 1/3 Window Server 2003 ... with 3 different primary purposes/images for the Linux servers, and only 1 purpose/image for the Windows servers ... and the Windows servers require approximately TWICE the total effort to administer as the Linux servers, in spite of there being half as many. (Not handwaving, we track labor hours closely). That's 4x/server.

Possibly it's because we run several large-scale COTS product suites on Windows (e.g. ESRI ArcGIS Server), compared to a more speciific/dedicated software suite on your servers? I'm just guessing.
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Hard to say
xuniL_z 21st Jul 2008
These days my friend, a very wise man told me tha the differences in servers, both stability and ease of use/administration is moot.

And if you read the objective press....like some said journalist tend to be Mac folks so no wonder it gets good reviews, right?


I would ask you to detail the "extra effort to administer". It could be your apps. If they are designed to run on Windows, and they don't run well, the only explanation is they are not well written. I've used windows long enough to know reputable code, written to Microsoft spec, runs flawlessly.


We run a full suite healthcare system on around 30 servers. It's huge. It's fully integrated with modules for every imaginable need in a hospital and all modules talk to each other. No interface maintenance....great economies of scale. It's a load is all I can say...i can't compare it to yours. It's not one Module per server either, they are al hosting multiple modules and others running thousands of background jobs. But they are dedicated otherwise. The 20 other servers are doing everything from Sharepoint/Sql server to dictation.


I think Active Directory and group policy make the client (and server) admin a cakewalk and I'm not talking about one big OU here. And actually I forgot the PACS system handling all of the imaging for radiology...there are around 70 servers and 1500 clients.


A person that was an operator is handling all of the user maintenance for example...at a grade 4 salary. You can't beat it overall, in my opinion.


are you running windows standard or advanced server?
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RE;Trust me (You)
n0neXn0ne Updated - 18th Jul 2008
"...people like me who used it for over 13 years and have given up."



I don't know about ya'll, but I smell a rat.
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unbelievable.
xuniL_z 21st Jul 2008
I'm sure to you, it would be impossible that anyone could grow tired of the things you advocate. Why, how dare he! It must be a hoax.


How do you keep from tripping over that ego of yours?


After 13 years of the dozens, if not more, of Linux based systems going nowhere, and 21 years total and not even getting .01 of the desktop market, why wouldn't someone want to move on in life? get over yourself.
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Sorry to disappoint you...
Solid Water 18th Jul 2008
I consider myself an old timer - 8 consequent years...

I came to Linux from FreeBSD becauase of a bigger set of applications. I HATED Linux a lot - since 1995 when I started using FreeBSD. Slackware was a mess, kernel was changing every day left and right, but most of all those freaking symbolic links from anywhere to everywhere and unstable drivers! wink

Let me tell you, Linux now is different. I am a happy camper at home with Gentoo on a 5 year old machine (2.8 HT) - pretty snappy. I am usnig OO, Kino, Gnucash, FF, TB, calibre. About the last - I got a gift from my sons - PRS-505 and my wife got the same e-reader half a year ago. happy

At work I set a "bootleg" server that is running Gentoo with a *AMP* stack plus Bugzilla, Twiki Subversion, Samba...

Recently I setup a Ubuntu 8.04 desktop machine (since this is fastest way to install Linux that I know) for the project I am working on - my laptop is dying under the load of svchost.exe, wmi.exe, rtvscan.exe, dscan.exe, pgp-encrypted HDD and other .exe that are controlling my Windows Professional laptop...

I am an avionics embedded software engineer and all I care is efficiency. Yes, I am lucky that my customer uses GNU toolchain. I built cross-compiler for the target (both on Win and Lin machines) and voila! Building project on a 2.4 GHz Linux machine ~1.5 minutes, on a Core Duo 2.0 GHz Windows laptop ~4 minutes. When one/many of the above mentioned Windows software products is/are in control it takes up to 10 minutes to make a build.

Once again, I am really sorry for you to give up... sad
I've found that the vast majority of people who are still in the novelty phase of linux find the UNIX haters handbook to be offensive.

On the contrary, those who find the book funny and insightful tend to have a pretty decent knowledge of UNIX and, despite it's shortcomings, still love UNIX.

I have a copy stashed away - not mint condition - but complete with barf bag. happy
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It's all true
sorpigal 21st Jul 2008
You can't help but laugh at the UHH because it's all true and there is humor in pointing out the true-but-ridiculous things in life.

Sadly, even today it still remains true. Fundamentally Unix is broken in so many tragic ways. My perspective is that our only hope is breaking the back of the Windows stranglehold, then coding a fresh open OS that actually works well. In a non-monopolized market built around Free software operating systems the uptake ought to be pretty rapid.

Perhaps the HURD will be the magical after-monopoly perfect OS, but I doubt it will be ready in time.
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a bit odd that
RogerDaryl 20th Jul 2008
I personally don't use Linux much (our servers at work run it, and I'm still learning the basics of bash) I've done windows based dev for the last 15 years.

But I have a very good mate who has been using *nix systems for nearly 30 years. His current favourite is Ubuntu, but he also really likes SUSE, and was very involved with Slackware, and when he's bored he plays with HP-UX.

He prefers all of them over any Windows flavour you care to name.
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Re: Trust me mate
Vinny_z 9th Dec 2008
Spot on, pal!
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Spot on
sorpigal 21st Jul 2008
To truly hate something you must first love it. Once I figured this out a lot of things made more sense.

You can talk about Linux sucking, or anything sucking, all you like but you are talking out of your ass. First you have to get involved, get your hands dirty and learn what's good about it and what's not so good. Then you can hate it, if you like.

I'm primarily a Perl hacker. A lot of people say bad things about Perl as a language and the same thing applies: you have the people who are just talking trash and the people who learned perl, used perl, liked perl, then hated perl.
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Proof: zdnet shows you can.....
xuniL_z 22nd Jul 2008
never use a MS product, such as Vista and still hate it and give it horrible reviews even though most who really bag it, have never touched it.
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Of course it can be done
frgough 18th Jul 2008
If it's worth the effort. In other words, if there is money involved.
Until money is involved then it will never be worth the effort
because 90% of your work always goes into fixing the last 10% of
your problems.
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And of course there is money involved
Michael Kelly 18th Jul 2008
Garmin isn't giving those GPS devices out for free after all.

And your statement about your final problems being the most time consuming couldn't be more true for the Linux desktop, because they've been on the cusp for 4 or 5 years now, and they can't seem to get it all together to go that last mile. The pieces are all there, and as technology creates more pieces Linux has done a decent job in keeping up with those pieces, however they can't seem to get a final polished package that brings it all together.
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RE: Tough love: Linux needs more haters
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
Awesome information, I might thank to creator becaus i've discovered a large number of interesting info. I am going to subscribe football shop to this blog. Best needs happy

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