John Edwards, NAFTA and protectionism

Summary: Though I was about as likely to vote for Daffy Duck as vote for John Edwards, his recent comments regarding the need for restrictions on foreign trade just sealed the deal. John Edwards and economic common sense simply cannot be mentioned in the same sentence.

Though I was about as likely to vote for Daffy Duck as vote for John Edwards, his recent comments regarding the need for restrictions on foreign trade just sealed the deal. John Edwards and economic common sense simply cannot be mentioned in the same sentence.

But, this blog wasn't written to trash John Edwards, so much as to consider the growing push for economic protection that supports such pronouncements. In 1992, shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, such talk would have been heresy. Freedom means something, and it doesn't include blocking consumer's ability to buy from whom they want. It particularly doesn't mean starving developing nation citizens on account of misplaced rich nation fear of job losses (if you look at American history, that is a truly ridiculous fear).

Riddle me this: Lopez Obrador, the candidate narrowly defeated by Felipe Calderon in Mexico's recent presidential elections, argued repeatedly that Mexico needed to renegotiate NAFTA. In his opinion, NAFTA had resulted in a loss of jobs to the United States. He wanted to put in place more labor-friendly restrictions of a sort that would sound very familiar to John Edwards.

Wait a second....job losses to the United States? Didn't John Edwards say we were losing jobs to Mexico? They can't both be right.

Politicians' ability to say the same thing on both sides of the border has little to do with whether or not NAFTA "works," and everything to do with the fact that every economic rule adjustment, however small, involves pain to someone. The net result of NAFTA has been a quadrupling of cross-border trade, or in other words, the creation of business which prior to NAFTA simply did not exist. That matters a lot more than whose "favor" the balance of trade currently leans (currently it leans towards Mexico, but in the past, it has leanded towards the United States).

NAFTA resulted in MORE business for both nations, a sum that dwarfed narrow calculations of a "balance of trade." People who benefited from the old protectionist structures, however, can face jobs losses, and that hurts. This creates opportunities for populist presidential candidates to lure people to their side irrespective of the economic data (which most people don't pay much attention to, anyway).

If Switzerland were to change its store opening hours to be more in line with the United States, that would harm the prospects of online grocers who benefit from stores that close at 6PM. Online grocers, therefore, could be expected to lobby against the rule changes, and political candidates might woo them by attacking "evil capitalists" who are trying to make people slave away long after 6pm (which has nothing to do with the decision to extend store hours, but is typical of the way a politician tends to spin an issue).

America is the richest nation in the world, bar none. Granted, from a size of the economy standpoint, China, a nation with 1.3 billion citizens to our 300 million, will eventually surpass us, but from a per capita standpoint, we will remain the richest for a VERY long time (3% average yearly growth rates on a 12 trillion economy yields LOTS of growth). If you distilled John Edwards claims to the essentials, he is saying that Americans are too weak to compete on a global stage. That would bother a lot more red-blooded Americans if current geopolitical events weren't making so many Americans nervous about their place in the world.

America CAN compete. We've had the most open trade borders of any nation in the world for most of our history, and that has merely served to enhance American competitiveness by making the companies who survive global competition truly competitive (and not just competitive in a local market due to state subsidy).

Truly competitive companies are capable of the kinds of innovation that makes America great, and have a market as big as the planet to which they can sell. Companies that are only competitive because politicians creates sinecures removed from the full rigors of international competition are usually confined to the local market, aren't sources of tremendous innovation, and don't generate the jobs that would make Americans feel safe. Safety comes from things like universal health care, or funds to help retrain workers affected by globalization. If only Mr. Edwards would confine himself to what really makes America safe safe rather than peddling fantasies that are likely to make us even less safe in future.

John Edwards and others like him (a group that includes "constitutionalist" Ron Paul, who I'd like to remind that in the much ballyhooed constitutionally-oriented small government of yore, trade barriers were practically non-existent, and foreign workers could come to this country, sans-passport, to live and work as long as they wanted...now THAT'S freedom) do America a disservice by selling bad policy pronouncements that appeal to America's baser instincts in their quest to become president of the United States.

Topic: IT Employment

John Carroll

About John Carroll

John Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup.

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  • Flag waiver.

    I do agree with some of your points and I'm not to impressed with Edwards myself. The Nation?s international deficit in goods and services increased to $60.0 billion in May from $58.7 billion (revised) in April, as imports increased more than exports.

    I don't have a problem with fair trade. The trouble is that it is not fair at this time in history. Why? Because America is the only consumer base. Carlos and the people in his Village in Mexico can't afford to buy Michigan apples @ $1.29lb. Imports are much higher than export. American made products are much too expensive for consumers across much of the World.

    Things will change after time. China is the biggest Car buyer in the World right now. Are they buying Ford or GM?

    So who is reaping the harvest of NAFTA and CAFTA? Well.. as American consumers we have more stuff to.. consume. Large American Companies make money investing in companies across the Globe who make products cheaper and ship the products to the American consumer.

    However, the working class American Joe or Sally can take advantage of this Global market. Research and learn to invest in growing economies. This is free enterprise and not philanthropy. We demand it to be fair but it is money and power. People are good at heart but never forget there is GREED!

    Health care is a great idea. But it would be our worst day in history if we gave social health care control to the Health care insurance companies!

    America is in bad shape and it's time we woke up and spoke up.
    xstep
    • Funny that you should mention agriculture

      [i]Because America is the only consumer base. Carlos and the people in his Village in Mexico can't afford to buy Michigan apples @ $1.29lb.[/i]

      Actually, the extreme competitiveness of the American farm industry is a real problem for Mexico. and Lopez Obrador was thinking of all the farming jobs lost in Mexico when he considered tailoring NAFTA to suit his needs. From an agrictultural standpoint, our exports to Mexico vastly exceeds imports. We are the most competitive farming nation in the world...

      ...which begs the question, why do we try to protect it?

      [i]Things will change after time. China is the biggest Car buyer in the World right now. Are they buying Ford or GM?[/i]

      Yes, and lots of Japanese and South Korean cars, too. Our auto industry malaise has more to do with problems at American car companies, not a fundamental inability for rich nations to compete.

      [i]So who is reaping the harvest of NAFTA and CAFTA? Well.. as American consumers we have more stuff to.. consume. Large American Companies make money investing in companies across the Globe who make products cheaper and ship the products to the American consumer[/i]

      If you think of market economies as a huge supply chain, making our products cheaper by lowering the cost of inputs that can be more efficiently produced overseas helps American companies. American computer manufacturers are some of the biggest in the world....guess where most of their parts are made? THink of a world where computers HAD to be built exclusively in america. Would you, as a technology professional (assuming that is what you are) have a job?

      There are lots of knock-on effects from artificially heightened input prices. We have a huge computer industry that is fertile ground for tech admins and software developers because computers are cheap due to a global supply chain for computer products.

      [i]Health care is a great idea. But it would be our worst day in history if we gave social health care control to the Health care insurance companies![/i]

      I see no reason why we can't have an expanded public health system that competes with private industry. That's what we do in university education, and American university education is the best in the world.

      Granted, there is a difference, as we want to guarantee that everyone has health care. However, you don't have to BAN private competition to have a public sector. IN fact, doing so creates our primary school system (private schools aren't banned, but you get none of your public school tax money if you choose to go to one, whereas I think they should get some of it (though not all)).

      [i]America is in bad shape and it's time we woke up and spoke up.[/i]

      America has issues, but it isn't because of "unfair" foreign competition. It is an inability to fix fundamental structural problems, such as our messed-up primary school system and spiraling problems of health care costs. We also have a system that encourages housing bubbles due to tax policies that encourage mortgage indebtedness.
      John Carroll
      • Spiraling

        John,

        As problems, you mention spiraling health care costs, a wretched primary school system, and tax-policies that encourage indebtedness.

        And yet, you call for an expanded public health care system. How would an expanded public health care system a) keep costs down, b)not involve byzantine tax-laws, c) not fall victim to the same pressures that our primary school system is subject to: supply/demand problems that come with a "free" good; stale bureaucracy; gross inefficeincy; and an utter inability to innovate.

        Just curious. That endorsement seems an odd lapse.
        pkstephens
        • The same way...

          ...public universities manage to avoid stale bureaucracy and gross inefficiency (at least partially)...by forcing them to compete with private universities by allowing SOME money to go to private schools.

          We have a pretty large state-funded university system in the United States. MOST people go to a state-funded school, and pay really low rates to do so. Some public money, however, does go to private schools, in the form of grants for needy students, or even in the form of loan guarantees (which is a form of subsidy, though might not be viewed as such by those faced with paying back loans).

          I see value in a public sector, but what we need to ensure is that people a) have a choice of where they go to the hospital, and b) can use some money at private institutions if they so choose. That forces a degree of competition into the public sector even if public doctors cost a lot less than private ones.

          Our public school system suffers from lack of competition. Students have to go to the school in their area, and don't really have to compete with private schools at all (they get all their money irrespective of whether a student goes to a private school). We still need public schools because they ensure universal education. I see no reason, however, to give them an exclusive lock on local students, or to give them all education-related tax money even though some students in their area opt to go to a private school.

          It's a hybrid model that we use in our university system.

          Anyway, that's a blitzkrieg version of what I think.
          John Carroll
      • Utopia is a good Place

        "We are the most competitive farming nation in the world..."

        Of course let us ignore all those farm subsidies in their millions of dollars that we give to agriculture. Woohooo we are the most competitive.
        goxk@...
        • We give far less in subsidies

          ...than Europe. We still have some of the best farmland in the world, and besides, Mexico has a HUGE advantage in terms of labor cost. We still swamped Mexican grocery stores with our farm products.

          American farming doesn't need subsidization to compete, which is why it is so odd that we do so.
          John Carroll
          • If that is so

            why do we still refuse to agree to our commitments to remove subsidies which by the way violate WTO rules and distort world trade. Unless you haven't been paying attention or are blatantly ignoring the facts. WTO meetings have been failing due to 3 world countries walking away when no concessions have been forthcoming. Utopia is great. Where is more Kool-aid.
            goxk@...
          • We never committed

            ...which is part of the problem, though we did offer a large cut (a halving, if I recall) in our subsidies (to which Europe didn't agree).

            Past agreements left farm products off the table, mostly because farmers have strong lobbies in most developed nations (Europe is really bad, Japan is practically strangled by them).

            You are right, though...the third world isn't being very sensible about trade (at least with respect to the Doha round of trade talks), opting instead to demand open western markets while allowing them to keep their markets closed in areas that matter to the west. Basic brinkmanship, and we don't have a president with the moral authority to bring them back from that brink.

            But what does this have to do with American farm products competitiveness?
            John Carroll
          • It is good to be

            patriotic but not ignore facts for the sake of it. You have got it all wrong. Go read about WTO (from alternative sources not MSM. I cannot even start to write about it because you have your facts upside down. You have some truth about Europe and Japan. But those all subsidize like we do in order to be competitive.

            3 world countries walked out because they have opened their economies without reciprocation from the west. Why would they walk out if there was no WTO violations.
            goxk@...
          • I'm pretty knowledgeable

            ...about the WTO, etc. And you are simply wrong about the need for subsidies in the US. We already have the lowest subsidies of any western nation, and those products were STILL able to swamp Mexico. Japan and Europe have more cause for concern, though one has to wonder if the amount of money they ladle on an infinitessimal fraction of their economy (agriculture) is really worth it. Political power leads to funny policies.

            You are right, though, that the 3rd world felt badly done by the last round, because the west maintained high barriers to agricultural products...which just so happens to be an important area for the third world. THat does not mean, however, that the 3rd world should opt to protect its manufacturing sectors, or for that matter, opt out of intellectual property protections.

            So, to be more fair, BOTH sides needed to compromise, and BOTH sides have done an insufficient amount of that. In the last few meetings, though, there has been some movement, at least from America, on the issue of farm subsidies, and 3rd world blocks continued to insist that they were a "special case" that required more protection. Proper diplomacy seemed to take a back seat to grandstanding to viewers at home, IMHO.

            I reject that wholeheartedly, as "special cases" merely perpetuate special case status. You don't become a manufacturing powerhouse by protecting your industry...period. The third world already has cost advantages, and they can build their technology side using revenue from the areas of their economy that ARE competitive right now.
            John Carroll
          • Just saying it doesn't make it so

            Let me start by saying that current so called "fair trade" has rigged rules. Go here for a simple overview
            http://www.maketradefair.com/en/index.php?file=issues_dumping.htm
            The DOHA rounds started as early as 2001 with the negotiations seeking to reduce trade barriers and make trade fairer for developing countries. Not developing countries reducing trade barriers. See as simple analysis here
            http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0416-06.htm

            Here are some more links that prove your analysis to be flawed

            http://www.cato.org/downsizing/agriculture/
            http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/pas/pas.html (trade policy analysis)
            http://www.fff.org/comment/com0404p.asp
            http://in.rediff.com/money/2004/sep/20wto.htm
            http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/2003/sept_18_03.htm

            I think that is enough reading for you
            goxk@...
          • You should read some of those links...

            ...the most curious link you gave me was from Cato, a group that has LONG advocated against farm subsidies. In fact, from that page you linked:

            [i]Cato is on the right track with its proposals to downsize the USDA. Many of the department?s programs originated in the Great Depression and are completely out of date and no longer needed, if they ever were. Downsizing the USDA would help move American agriculture into the 21st century."

            - John R. Norton, Deputy Secretary of Agriculture, 1985-1986[/i]

            I know we spend stupid money on farm subsidies, but don't confuse size with effectiveness. America spends a lot of that money on paying people NOT to farm, which would serve to reduce supply more than anything else (though that surely isn't the only way such money is spent).

            But I'm confused. I am advocating the complete removal of American farm subsidies. You seem to agree with me. What in the hell are we arguing about...whether or not America truly NEEDS those farm subsidies to remain competitive?

            I think you exaggerate the lack of competitiveness of American farming. America has the fertile land AND capital to farm on a massive scale, which is a different kind of farming, but one that minimizes labor cost differences considerably. Would some farmers be harmed by a removing of barriers to entry to the American market and/or removal of subsidies? Most assuredly. There are always losers in every change of economic rules.

            I, however, think America exaggerates the risks of removing subsidies. You agree that America should remove farm subsidies, yet paradoxically argue that the resulting harm to America will be HUGE.

            Besides being right (IMO), I think my argument is an easier pill to swallow, and though I can't say I've read through all the links you provided (which is why I try not provide stacks of links when arguing with someone...that's called "arguing through other people," which really isn't conducive to debate in talkbacks), I've seen nothing in them thus far that disagrees with my analysis.

            Yes, there is harm to third world nations from American subsidies, and that is made abundantly clear in ALL the articles you list. I just don't think that subsidy reductions would be quite the economic catastrophe for the United States that you think it would be.
            John Carroll
          • More reason to read your own links

            From [url=http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0416-06.htm]this link[/url] (which I reached through one of your links):

            ---------------------

            Ironically, Europe's farm subsidies are doomed anyway, because the EU is adding 10 new members and it cannot afford to extend its current lavish farm subsidies to the millions of Polish and Romanian farmers. [b]U.S. farmers have far more to gain in export sales than they have to fear from import competition in America[/b].
            John Carroll
          • Sorry, I meant this link...

            ...copied the wrong link from the list of tabs I have open:

            http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/2003/sept_18_03.htm
            John Carroll
          • Supports my stance on legalizing mexican labor

            http://www.freetrade.org/node/44

            Different issue, but thanks for the link.
            John Carroll
          • John John John

            You wrote
            "We are the most competitive farming nation in the world..."

            I called that bluff since nowhere did you mention how much agriculture is subsidized in the west. Had you said, we are the most competitive farming nation in the west. That would have been different since subsidies are rampant in the west but you claimed the whole world. I just called you on that one because if we are the most competitive why do we subsidize?

            You have further claimed that I - "I, however, think America exaggerates the risks of removing subsidies. You agree that America should remove farm subsidies, yet paradoxically argue that the resulting harm to America will be HUGE."

            You John made lots of assumptions about what I said. The above being one of them. All the rest of your comments are premised on my stand being the one that I have just highlighted above. Thus pretty much supporting my argument.

            Now going back to the original "We are the most competitive farming nation in the world..." All I can say is that I don't believe that we are, but would easily find out if the subsidies were removed :)
            goxk@...
          • goxk, goxk, goxk

            ...which sounds like the noise a group of aliens with mandibles for mouths might make.

            [i]I called that bluff since nowhere did you mention how much agriculture is subsidized in the west. Had you said, we are the most competitive farming nation in the west. That would have been different since subsidies are rampant in the west but you claimed the whole world. I just called you on that one because if we are the most competitive why do we subsidize?[/i]

            Bluff? How does noting that the west should STOP subsidizing agriculture downplay the amount? Noting that the west spends lots of money on agriculture is like noting the sky is blue. You seem to think that that is money well spent, making western agricultural markets "competitive." I don't think it is so rational...

            ...and for that matter, some of the links you gave me state as much, as I noted in some of the responses. America does not NEED to subsidize, and has more to gain from exported agricultural product than it would lose from new agricultural imports.

            [i]You John made lots of assumptions about what I said. The above being one of them. All the rest of your comments are premised on my stand being the one that I have just highlighted above.[/i]

            Okay, why give me a stack of arguments that discusses the harm our subsidies causes to developing nations if you don't want to get rid of farm subsidies? Is your stance that farm subsidies do harm to the third world, but you could care less?

            You seem to be doing a lot of dancing.

            [i]All I can say is that I don't believe that we are, but would easily find out if the subsidies were removed[/i]

            I do, and so do a lot of economists, as noted by some of the links you gave me (like I said, it's always wise to read the posts that you use in a rebuttal).
            John Carroll
          • Now John

            I have been enjoying this John but such a comment as
            "You seem to be doing a lot of dancing." Get me serious.

            You have written that you wrote "the west should STOP subsidizing agriculture" but in essence what you wrote was "America CAN compete. .... by making the companies who survive global competition truly competitive (and not just competitive in a local market due to state subsidy)" And that John is not the same as stopping subsidies.

            But the sake of not arguing on that point let say I concede that you wrote "the west should STOP subsidizing agriculture" on the original post or on the thread that I was commenting on. How does that then prove that "We are the most competitive farming nation in the world..." And in case I was not clear I am still pointing out how can we be the most competitive nation in the world while still subsidizing?

            "Okay, why give me a stack of arguments that discusses the harm our subsidies causes to developing nations if you don't want to get rid of farm subsidies?" Again if the purpose of this was lost to you I will spell it out; we refused to end subsidies and compete with 3rd world countries. That kinds of puts a dint to "most competitive nation" if we can't even compete with poor 3rd world countries.

            "Is your stance that farm subsidies do harm to the third world, but you could care less?"

            On the contrary my stance could be said to support the 3rd world. But again you assume that I said or implied the above. I have simply pointed out that we helped kill the DOHA rounds after you called 3rd world countries irresponsible for walking away from DOHA. That which could in fact be attributed to you, you attribute to me.
            goxk@...
          • Now gokx

            [i]But the sake of not arguing on that point let say I concede that you wrote "the west should STOP subsidizing agriculture" on the original post or on the thread that I was commenting on.[/i]

            You got to love debating geeks.

            [i]How does that then prove that "We are the most competitive farming nation in the world..." And in case I was not clear I am still pointing out how can we be the most competitive nation in the world while still subsidizing?[/i]

            So, essentially, you are arguing that it merely isn't PROVEN tha the United States is the most competitive farming nation in the world so long as we continue to subsidize farmers (in spite of the fact that some of the links YOU posted state that America is extremely competitive and doesn't need subsidies).

            Fair enough. If Lance Armstrong doped his way to Tour de France success, then he isn't REALLY the best bicyclist in the world. On the other hand, to even play in that league, he's a pretty damn good bicyclist.

            Or, he might really have been the best bicyclist in the world, and he didn't need doping in the first place. Attaching rocket engines to Mario Andrettis Formula 1 racer might make him go even faster, but it doesn't mean he needed them to win races.

            But, this is a semantic battle.

            [i]Again if the purpose of this was lost to you I will spell it out; we refused to end subsidies and compete with 3rd world countries. That kinds of puts a dint to "most competitive nation" if we can't even compete with poor 3rd world countries.[/i]

            Not quite true. America made some very strong offers later in the process, and there was evidence they were starting to bring the Europeans down from their perch. By that time, however, the developing world had discovered that "saying no to the man" (a.k.a. the west) played well to the people back home. People were showing up late to meetings, and it was pretty clear that there was not much room for compromise.

            Diplomacy is a two way street. The west can be accused of "poisoning the well early," but that doesn't justify later inflexibility on the part of the developing world. At the end of the day, the developing world has more to lose than the developed world, as the developed world already has access to the most lucrative and high-spending markets in the world...their own. The developing world NEEDS access to those markets if they are to shrink the time to developed-market status the way South Korea and Taiwan did, and China is trying to do.

            Yes, that puts more pressure on developing world diplomats, which isn't "fair," but that's a reality. The developing world had more to gain from the Doha round than the developed world (which isn't to say that the developing world had nothing to gain, just that the gains aren't as dramatic as they would be for the developing world).

            [i]On the contrary my stance could be said to support the 3rd world. But again you assume that I said or implied the above. I have simply pointed out that we helped kill the DOHA rounds after you called 3rd world countries irresponsible for walking away from DOHA. That which could in fact be attributed to you, you attribute to me.[/i]

            This is why your stance is so confusing. You claim to support the developing world. I can assume, then, that you want the west to lower farm subsidies. Yet, you argue that the agricultural strength of one of the biggest countries in the developed world is "not proven" and "at risk" from subsidy reduction, even though experts YOU sent my way in the form of links say otherwise.

            How does that make sense? Do you know something they don't? Why not shout from the rooftops "AMERICA'S FARMING ECONOMY DOES NOT NEED PROTECTION" when that is a lot more likely to get you what you want (a reduction in American farm subsidies) than arguing that America's farm industry NEED subsidies to stay competitive, even though your own experts say otherwise.
            John Carroll
          • Finally

            "So, essentially, you are arguing that it merely isn't PROVEN tha the United States is the most competitive farming nation in the world so long as we continue to subsidize farmers"

            Bingo

            To the rest of your post, I offer your own concession and analysis unless of course we decide that the links we in error

            "Okay, why give me a stack of arguments that discusses the harm our subsidies causes to developing nations if you don't want to get rid of farm subsidies?"

            As for agriculture in the west. Read all my posts. I never once claimed that the west is not competitive or "at risk" as you put it. I will just take Armstrong's analogy that you provided. If you are doped, you are doped. The whys and the wherefores don't matter. You are doped and the rules have been violated. He may well be the best. Do we know? No (watch that dope). As to why he did it, we may speculate till kingdom come. He may continue to claim to be the best but damn that dope sure casts a huge shadow.

            As for "experts"; don't get me started. If you believe the experts good luck to you. As for me, what they say is a suggestion. I have to verify their assertions, claims etc and that by the way includes my Doctor.
            goxk@...