ie8 fix
madison

The company people want Microsoft to be

By | May 23, 2008, 8:53am PDT

Summary: The recent announcements regarding Microsoft’s plans to include native support for ODF and PDF as part of Office 2007 SP2 was certainly unexpected. They had just managed to get OXML ratified by ISO, a move that was clearly aimed to counter a format that had benefited from its decision to submit itself to standardization groups [...]

The recent announcements regarding Microsoft’s plans to include native support for ODF and PDF as part of Office 2007 SP2 was certainly unexpected. They had just managed to get OXML ratified by ISO, a move that was clearly aimed to counter a format that had benefited from its decision to submit itself to standardization groups early. Wouldn’t the standardization of OXML make inclusion of ODF unnecessary?

Clearly, that wasn’t deemed the case, and though I think skepticism is warranted, the move is a hopeful one. There is no pro-ODF blog anywhere on the planet that doesn’t express hope that they can take Microsoft at face value on this.

A Microsoft that fearlessly suports ODF and PDF in its products is the kind of company most people, consumers and regulators alike, want Microsoft to be. To my mind, if Microsoft is serious about this, it is a sign that someone, somewhere higher up the management heirarchy realizes that Microsoft is a platform company, and platforms must be trustworthy enablers of technology intercommunication.

Of course, being a trustworthy enabler doesn’t necessarily mandate that Microsoft must be the prime mover behind support for alternative formats and protocols in its products. I think it’s enough that they make it easy to create format plugins that support ODF and PDF (which they do). Microsoft DOES make its own formats, and I think its fair that they give most of their attention to their own formats. OpenOffice certainly does that.

On the other hand, Office 2007 is a quite competitive product in its own right. I got the chance to do a healthy bit of presentation creation using OpenOffice during my trip through Africa, and though I found it to be a useful product, I vastly preferred Office 2007. My sister, hardly a computer enthusiast and perfectly willing to reject a software product irrespective of the the fact its maker happens to pay my paycheck, loves Office 2007…and I have plenty of people not related to me that think the new ribbon interface is great.

Besides, by opting not to support the format themselves, they just leave the door open for someone else’s code to be used in its place. ODF plugins do exist. By creating their own format converters and including them as part of Office 2007, they make life a lot easier for most users, but they also better ensure that they control the code chain. A recipe for mischief? Perhaps…but then again, if they ARE serious about being open (which they should be), it doesn’t have to be that way.

On that note, if Microsoft is really interested in thinking more like a platform company circa 2008 (versus a platform company circa 1995, where robust extensibility APIs might have been considered sufficient), I wonder if they’d be willing to consider other areas of “openness:”

1. Live Messenger: Back when Microsoft was an IM upstart, Microsoft sang the song of “open IM,” and started a rather noisy hacking war with AIM - then the dominant IM client - where Microsoft developers enabled access to AIM users for a few days, only to be blocked a bit later when AIM developers closed the connection down. Windows Messenger was SIP-compatible, and sites abound describing how to use the old Windows Messenger 5.1 product as a SIP client.

Today, Windows Messenger is no longer maintained, replaced by Live Messenger (a closed IM system) and Office Communicator (SIP-based, but tailored for use with Live Communication Server). I’d love to see Microsoft jump on an open-SIP bandwagon. That would seem an effective counter to the growing XMPP/Jabber IM universe.

More to the point, an ubiquitous IM client that guaranteed interoperability with all SIP-compatible servers would light the IM world on fire…in a good way. GoogleTalk regularly receives free functionality on account of the fact that it interoperates for free with the Jabber universe. Imagine what could occur with the vastly more popular Live Messenger.

2. XBOX: XBOX is fun. I have one (albeit one I received through a programming contest), use it as the front-end for my TV (I watch TV through Media Center, which turns my PC into a streaming server for live TV), and would play a lot more games on it if I hadn’t become so damn busy.

Then again, I am keenly aware that XBOX is not a normal Microsoft product. For a platform company that supports a large ecosystem of third-party products through its APIs and operating systems, XBOX stands out for the degree to which it is locked down like Fort Knox. In that regard, it strikes me as more like an iPhone than a typical Microsoft product.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if it was easy for third parties to make custom, non-game applications targeted at the one Microsoft platform that is directly attached to the TV set? Further, wouldn’t it be wonderful if that platform was the XBOX?

Granted, Microsoft makes a bit of cash from XBOX Live, and that relies on networking capability not being a free service (which likely explains why XNA didn’t include networking support out of the gate). On the other hand, there has to be an advantage to having millions of third party developers in the world all trying to find interesting ways to enhance the value of your TV-attached platform. It’s a recipe that worked for desktop Windows.

Perhaps the PMs responsible for these projects think these are steps too far. Then again, I had always thought that Microsoft would not include ODF as a natively supported format in Office 2007.

Personally, I think that a more open Microsoft, one that shows consistency in its approach across product lines and does so for a long enough time to be statistically relevant, builds trust. Once they have trust, its a lot easier for Microsoft to include ANYTHING they want into their products, because the assumption will be that alternatives are ALWAYS available and choosable.

That’s the way a platform company is supposed to operate. It’s not the strategy of an Apple, but Microsoft isn’t Apple…nor should it try to be, except in the realm of good UI that it subsequently makes available to licensees of its platforms.

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More from “A Developer's View”

John Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup.

Disclosure

John Carroll

http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1412

Biography

John Carroll

John Carroll has programmed in a wide variety of computing domains, including servers, client PCs, mobile phones and even mainframes. His current specialties are C#, .NET, Java, WIN32/COM and C++, and he has applied those skills in everything from distributed web-based systems to embedded devices. In his spare time, he enjoys the world of digital video, and served as director of photography and editor on a feature-length film produced in Limerick, Ireland, as well as a low-budget production filmed in Los Angeles that used Panavision digital cameras (the same ones used by George Lucas in the later Star Wars episodes).

John worked in Microsoft's Mediaroom division from May, 2005 to May, 2008. He is co-founder of ForgetMeNot Software, a creator of unified messaging software targeted at telecommunications providers, where he currently works as Director of Technology.

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SpikeyMike 29th May 2008
He's an astute student of history.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/

-Mike
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what kind of compagny people want MS to be
Quebec-french 23rd May 2008
Well not very different that the one we have right now .... except

no more fud ( if they have something again opensource just go to court and be done with it if linux died thell go to BSD but if linux have nothing of MS in it they shut the f..k up)

if they really support odf and pdf (which im really not sure)they sould support it straight foward , complete, total no string attach .

that i believe people would like also ....

fix vista ( its crap )
extend XP for a very long time ( people will prefer pirate xp versus vista )

offer office for other platform ok if linux it not feasible go with bsd , MAC,SUN .

SOme people will use office on any platform .($$$)
stop the fud if you have a problem fix it . if its linux go to court and fix it if you have to win ... win but if you loose then....stfp.
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No one cares about *nix desktops
No_Ax_to_Grind 23rd May 2008
Sorry but there is no sense in supporting a desktop with 0.67% of the market.
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You truly are clueless, and it's funny.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 23rd May 2008
3-10% of the world's desktops (depends on how many computers are out there, that ranges from 650M to 1B, and which source you use that ISN"T netcraft).

Is 52,000,000 enough users who "care about the desktop they use" in one fell swoop enough?

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/04/deploying-kde-to-52-million-young.html
By the end of next year (2009) those numbers will have swelled to 53,000 labs serving some 52,000,000 students.

Brazil, you know, JUST a piddly little country, Linux is the education platform. Office and MS need not apply. Scarier for you, 52,000,000 kids learning and cutting their teeth on OpenOffice, KOffice, Abiword and Google Docs.

Keep pushing the FUD, your job depends on it.

TripleII
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What?
mdemuth 23rd May 2008
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10

I don't think it is Netcraft. And why not netcraft? Do you get to ignore research you don't like?

I'll assume your adding in Apple, which is BS. Apple is *nix for those that hate or can't deal with *nix. Or simply don't care what is underneath, which puts them squarely in the 'No one cares about *nix desktops' camp.
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Netcraft
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 23rd May 2008
Is the only major reporting group (North American based, doesn't publish it's methodology, etc) that reports Linux at under 1%. Something people keep forgetting is US != World. Let's put it this way, Ubuntu has solid stats that there are 18 million Ubuntu desktops. Now either there are 2B machines out there (low end 650M high end 1B) or Netcraft is wrong.

At the VERY worst, 1B (Gated number) and NOBODY runs any desktop except Ubuntu, Linux has 1.8% of desktop marketshare.

Now, add in all the pre-installed Linux in Asia, Europe, and on and on, yeah, 0.67% marketshare.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

That is a more accurate site because it actually draw overseas surfers to a North American site.

TripleII

P.S. My official guess as to world desktop Linux penetration is just under 6%.
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What?
theo_durcan 23rd May 2008
...Apple is *nix for those that hate or can't deal with *nix...

What strange twist of logic. I will make it simpler for you:

Apple (macOSX) is unix.

Learn to live with the truth.

PF
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It is tempting, but I won't.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 23rd May 2008
I could go back and dig up hundreds of your proclamations regarding the death of ODF, how it is useless, soon to be relegated to the dump heap of /dev/null, but it isn't worth it. Others will.

Dude, at some point, some way, you have to simply say, "I was wrong" and put some fresh thought into your discussions.

Pray For Sure going to eat iTunes
Zune going to destroy iPod
The complete decimation of Open Source at the hands of CSO
MS going to destroy Open Source with patents
ODF is dead, OOXML to rule the world
Novel's lawsuit against SCO non starter.
IBM will lose billions on the contract dispute.
Linux never to be pre-installed.

Do you see a trend?

TripleII
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Rupert has made other "predictions"
DonRupertBitByte 23rd May 2008
He thought that Adobe would get Dimitry Skylarov jailed in the USA over DMCA violations...
He thought that Microsoft could block Google from hiring Kai Fu Lee...
He proclaimed "The SCO Group" had a case...
He thought that Europe would have enforceable software patents when US corporations tried to turn up the heat (including Microsoft)...

Rupert is almost as bad as Rob Enderle. The difference? Rupert doesn't have an actual reputation on the line that can be publicly traced, and Enderle does. Enderle is not universally respected in the technology community, although he somehow manages to convince some people he's some kind of expert technology analyst.
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He tried to impress people that he had co-authored Powerpoint books (and therefore was worthy of being credible). But when asked, he refused to give the titles of those books.

Sad.
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Problem with using a pseudonym
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
If he had revealed the titles of his books, he would have blown his cover. Since he has elected not to post under his own name, we have no way of independently verifying any personal information he may want to provide, and as a practical matter, I don't think he should provide any.

His posts should be considered on their own merits, not on the unknown merits of their author.
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One little problem ...
Yagotta B. Kidding 23rd May 2008
His posts should be considered on their own merits, not on the unknown merits of their author.

Most of his posts are founded on appeals to his own authority.
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Yagotta: That is a problem
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
NAG does tend to appeal to his own authority, which is foolish for the reasons I stated. As it stands, the truth or falsehood of what he says would be the same if he was a janitor, as it would if he were a tech consultant.
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I don't consider that a problem.
odubtaig 24th May 2008
He changes his claimed basis for authority so often it's markedly easy to write him off as a fraud without even having to refer to anything he's claimed. All I have to do is bring up his inability to tell Dan Rachiver and Eben Moglen apart and he goes all quiet.

OK, maybe it's a problem for him, but oddly enough I have no problem with that.
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...
Linux User 147560 23rd May 2008
Please... don't hold back! This is better than watching a soap opera! devil
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Some people do...
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
...and there are an increasing number of good quality X clients available for a variety of purposes (I use several on a regular basis). My family PC has run Linux for years and I'm hardly the only one (you may want to heckle Adrian Kingsley-Hughes for a while... he keeps on saying good things about Ubuntu). Commercial developers may decide that it's not currently profitable to support Linux or other UNIX-type systems, but that can no longer stop development; it just clears the way for non-commercial developers to take the lead.

Nobody means zero, not a small minority.
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Once an idiot always one
X41 24th May 2008
Just like a leopard, Idiots cannot change their spots.
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Oppositional Defiant Disorder
SpikeyMike 29th May 2008
ODD is not a laughing matter. You should get yourself checked - we're starting to worry about you.

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_oppositional_defiant_disorder

-Mike
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Competing with itself
Anton Philidor 23rd May 2008
Microsoft had otriginally planned a more flexible XBoX. Then articles appeared describing how to turn the device into a Linux computer.

More significantly, the companies had a number of partners and plans which relied on certain devices doing certain things. A difficulty for a company like Microsoft which wants to provide a wide range of products is maintaining a plan on the connection among efforts.

Perhaps XBoX is as it is as a result of careful decisions, and that process should be encouraged. A company with segments competing directly in the market will eventually lose focus.


At the same time, the company has to respond to conditions in its markets. And that includes developer attitudes.

Microsoft can include ODF in Office because it won its standards battle. Now that Office cannot be denied access to bids on the basis of an open format designation, the compwetition has returned to the products themselves.

Microsoft can now allow for the possibility that Office will be purchased and documents saved in ODF format. If that is the conviction of customers or developers. That's an unlikely conviction, so the use of Office features will not be undermined. The company is not competing significantly with itself.

In actuality, ODF in Office is a gesture, one with PR benefits and no business costs. Perhaps the company learned from the treatment of open source by IBM and Red Hat.

Any strategic choice Microsoft makes can be evaluated fairly and without implied criticism on the basis of what's added to the bottom line. Such strategies need not affect products offered and the design of those products only. Changing attitudes toward the company can be a goal, so long as the financial benefit is not exceeded by losses from decreased sales.
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The reason MS locked it up so tight in the face of people trying to leverage it as a general purpose computer is that they heavily subsidized it to sell future games.

If folks could get their hands on this ultra-cheap, yet very powerful computer, Microsoft would lose a fortune not selling the games.

.
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total astroturf
stevey_d 25th May 2008
1. Vista is a disaster as far as the man in the street is concerned.
2. Office 2007 sales are about the same as OpenOffice takeup.
3. The XBox360 is in last position even though the project is $5bn in the red.
4. Windows CE is pretty much out of the marketplace. The PDA world collapsed in favour of the mobile, and margins are too tight for Windows in most of the mobile world.

To constantly paint current events as success after success removes all your credibility Anton.

OOXML hasn't "won", it's a disaster from start to finish. Microsoft corrupted ISO, and took out the ISO by pressing hard for OOXML. No-one will ever take ISO or anyone connected with it seriously again.

Office 2007 can't generate OOXML compatible documents, there is no other reference implementation, and the documents aren't finished. In what way is this a standard? It's like have a M4 bolt that no-one has made one of yet, and the drawings aren't finished for. Total madness.

It seems to me that Microsoft saw OpenOffice get ISO approval, and thought "we've got to do that with our format", and cooked up OOXML (awful technically on practically every level).
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Funny how Sony doesn't have a problem...
SpikeyMike 29th May 2008
"Then articles appeared describing how to turn the device into a Linux computer."

Odd - Sony's PS3 has a function to load a different OS. Wonder why they're not scared?

-Mike
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Generally agree
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
I'm not sure about "platform company" and I think MS should sell the XBox division (it's not profitable and has little to do with the rest of MS), but the important thing is for MS to put an end to the compatibility control efforts and power games (as effective as they may have been in the past) and concentrate on creating and selling great software. What I'll call "corporate protectionism" is forcing MS to devote a lot of time, money, and attention to legal and political issues (including PR), not to mention misguided merger and acquisition efforts, that really should be spent on research and development (with a substantial return to the stockholders).

The additional benefit would be that over time (and it would take time), most of the existing antagonism toward MS would disappear. MS is never going to please everyone, but it could stand to have many fewer enemies. As noted in the past, if your basic thesis is correct, the protectionist efforts that drive most of the antagonism are unnecessary anyway.
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I think XBOX is important
John Carroll 23rd May 2008
I think MS should sell the XBox division (it's not profitable and has little to do with the rest of MS)

Well, it's profitable now, even if it took heaps of billions to get there. More to the point, Microsoft can't be a serious player in the TV space if they don't have TV-attached devices. The XBOX serves as an important beachhead, and allows them to funnel content in other areas onto the TV.

That doesn't mean I want them to keep it as closed as they have, or that XBOX should be allowed to chart paths at right-angles to the wider Microsoft ecosystem.

As noted in the past, if your basic thesis is correct, the protectionist efforts that drive most of the antagonism are unnecessary anyway.

In fact, protectionism does more than stoke anti-Microsoft fervor. I think it weakens Microsoft as a company as surely as protectionism weakens companies in market economies. Microsoft engaged in some funny business in its battle with Netscape back in the 90s, but it is a FACT that they also did some surprisingly good engineering work. IE 4.0 was head and shoulders above Netscape from a quality and feature standpoint.

Microsoft should want to keep itself open to competition. They have the money and influence to stay ahead of competitors, and don't NEED protectionism to weaken the competitive vigor of its employees.
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XBox criticism is often misplaced.
odubtaig 23rd May 2008
As much as I hate MS in a lot of ways I'm still a fan of the hardware a lot of the time and the XBox was actually a really good console. It was, however, launched way too late and lost an advantage because most games were limited by the more popular, but less powerful, PS2 so outside of Halo, it never really got to show off.

The 360, despite early production issues, has been much better handled and although the PS3 is ending up in a lot of homes purely because of the Blu-Ray playback it's still going to be a tough contest between the two. Much more like ye olde days of Nintendo vs Sega.

It's awesome what MS can pull off in a competitive environment.
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I'll note...
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
...that I've never either praised or criticized the XBox itself for the simple reason that I have never used it. I *have* criticized MS' efforts to prevent modification as a waste of time and energy and as an invasion of the property rights of its customers, but that's a different matter entirely.
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Consoles are always sold at a loss with the profit made through games licensing, sometimes taking as much as 10% of every game sold. It's been that way since the days of the Master System and NES and, yes, even the first PS3s were sold at a substantial loss. Just look at the $1,000+ prices of Blu-Ray players at the time of launch.

As it is, MS play by the rules of the console game because it's the only way to make money in the console game. Not only that, but if they wanted to get publishers to put out games for the XBox they had to play by industry rules, which included anti-reverse engineering mechanisms and hardwired copy prevention.

But still, they had to get consoles sold, they had to make the platform attractive enough for paranoid DRM-loving publishers to have games worth playing on the system and they had to protect its reputation by controlling what games could get published (the console manufacturer is always the last word on quality control, even if it sucks the game must not crash) while also recouping the investment. Every XBox converted to a web-server or whathaveyou literally cost MS money.

So really, given that they were playing by the exact same rules as all other console makers, largely because it's the only way to play and survive, singling MS out for criticism on this point while ignoring Sony, Nintendo and, yes, even Sega is just unfair. Even Sony's inclusion of Yellow Dog Linux for the PS3 doesn't really count as it doesn't provide full hardware support which means hardware 3D acceleration is unavailable because Sony just won't provide the drivers.
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That's their problem...
John L. Ries 24th May 2008
...and does not trump the property rights of those who actually buy them. It shouldn't be up to the vendor to dictate what customers can and cannot do with the merchandise after it is sold, business models notwithstanding. MS should have the privilege of voiding the warranties on modified units and barring them from their game network, but otherwise, what XBox owners do with their property is none of MS' business.
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it had a lousy selection of games. that's why I got rid of mine. A web browser and media center might have allowed it to stay. It was certainly powerful enough for that, but it was decided not to give that facility.
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It was released at a terrible time when the PS2 had already taken the market for that generation, killed the Dreamcast and given the GameCube a good kicking, not only because it was good, but also because the GameCube had a stupid disc format which limited cross-platformability by not having enough disc space and the Dreamcast was just plain unpleasant to develop for (technical superiority means nothing if it can't be leveraged).

The PS2 already had a huge market share, tons of games and several years of tweaks to iron out any issues. By the time the XBox came out, most people already had one console (not many will buy two) and given the huge installed base for the PS2, the unlikelihood of many of these people changing or buying a second console and the high likelihood that with thousands of games out there already people would buy a PS2 even if it was their first console most game publishers just didn't see the point.

Now, if it had been launched within a few months or even a year of the PS2 when neither had any serious amount of games it might have had a chance, but so many years in with the PS2 so well established it was pretty much stuffed from the get.

The 360, on the other hand, has been superbly timed and even with all the hardware issues (dealt with very professionally) it may well be the dominant console this round... especially if GTA4 sales are any measure.
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360 not so good.
SpikeyMike 29th May 2008
My brother is an avid console gamer. He went through 4 XBox 360's with the Red Ring of Death before quitting and going to the PS3.

The XBox was a quality box. The 360 is less so.

Your mileage may vary.

http://www.advancetool.com/

-Mike
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Three little letters
Hemlock Stones 23rd May 2008
May I suggest that Microsoft take a look at how IBM transformed itself from FUD master (probably the originator of FUD as we know and love it today), and government anti-competition target to the active, competitive, successful company it is today. No, they're not perfect. But over the years they have earned my respect. As much as I dislike the way they do business now, I am open to the possibility that Microsoft can also earn my respect.
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Some is simply practical.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 23rd May 2008
They have lost ~15% of the market. Can they get it back if they offer good support for ODF, time will tell.

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=47922&messageID=893946&start=-9899

Additionally, India, China (UOF support to be added too), that have gone ODF, not might, but have gone non OOXML, it's a market they can't afford not to compete in. MS is smart, they tried to keep the world's formats closed, it didn't pan out. Do they like it, no, but will they now compete with the rules that are now in play, absolutely.

TripleII
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There will never be a consensus
bcarpent1228@... 23rd May 2008
Windows or Apple is good for 97% of the people - they just want to plug it in, take a picture, send it to mom. If they have a problem, they ask their brother\sister\kids\ etc. If they have a bit more money an Apple is even better.

For developers and techies - there never will be a consensus - and there never should be.

I would like to see Microsoft, Google, IBM, SUSE, etc. provide support for open source;

1) Web site hosting - free of Ads and restrictions;
2) pay developers for open source programs (1-5$ per download???) for any system, not just their system;
3) Freely provide certification support (the current certified for windows is too expensive);
4) Free development products
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Consistency is the key
coffeeshark 23rd May 2008
If MS can be consistent across their product lines, even if not completely open, we'll know what to expect from them with new products.

As it is, it seems to vary between products, and that's why no one is sure what MS means when they say "open" or promise future abilities.
Example:

I'm not a real Open Source fan, but their blathering about patent infringements, but then not specifying specifically which patents are being infringed is pure FUD.

I used to like Microsoft as a company, but the last few years they have lost all my respect. Who would want to do business with a company like this?

.
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Could someone define open-source, FUD, etc.
bcarpent1228@... 23rd May 2008
Could someone define open-source, FUD, etc.for me. I get the impression that open-source only applies to Linux developers that release source code;

what about Code-project, MS Express editions - are those open-source (you have to pay for VStudio, MS certification, so it may be open, but expensive)

what about source that has binary DLLs included

I don't know what FUD is, or it's implications

Thanking You, in advance
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Answers
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
The Open Source Definition (maintained by the Open Source Initiative) can be found at http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd.

The Free Software Foundation (founded by Richard Stallman, creator of the GPL and founder of the GNU Project) maintains a free software definition at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.

Both definitions are platform independent (there's a lot of open source software than runs under Windows). The FSF represents the more radical wing of the free software movement and regards open source (aka free software) as a moral imperative; OSI represents the more pragmatic wing, which promotes open source as a better way to develop software.

FUD stands for "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt", a propaganda technique used to discredit competitors by implying that they and their products will quickly disappear and that their customers will be "stuck". The term was originally applied to IBM sales tactics, and subsequently to similar techniques employed by MS and others. The term is often misused.
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Thank You to ""Answers""
bcarpent1228@... Updated - 23rd May 2008
Good reply - i read both documents. As a long term IBM\Windows developer i have always been annoyed at the restrictions and costs we incur developing products which benefited IBM or Microsoft.

I would like Microsoft to openly and transparently support the (above OSD, FSF) declarations (as per Balmer's developers, developers, developers statement) and stop treating developers as an exploitable resource.

The above also applies to Apple, SUSE, Google, ...
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GameStop just dumped them - said they didn't sell.

We need MS to be a company that creates products we want - not force their ideas (such as DRM-laden junk) upon us.

Some day they will learn.

.
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Sounds like GameStop
Boot_Agnostic 26th May 2008
had the wrong idea from the get go, selling Zunes or iPods that don't play games at a game retailer didn't make much sense. Now the PSP, that makes sense.
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... is in chapter 7 bankruptcy: liquidation.


Oh, let's also prosecute Ballmer, Gates and Bach for
perpetrating massive consumer fraud.
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Doing good, John
John L. Ries 23rd May 2008
Only one troll on each side thus far. Given some of the recent flame wars accompanying articles on MS, this is definitely an accomplishment.
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Previous response was rather flippant
John L. Ries 24th May 2008
If you have evidence of criminal activity on the part of senior MS executives, you have the duty to turn it over to the appropriate authorities; otherwise, I think it better to let justice take its course and not to wish imprisonment on people. Some people really should go to jail, I hope that Gates, Ballmer, et al are not among them.

Likewise, I think a reformed MS would be much more beneficial to the public than a defunct one.
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MS will be reformed...
Jeremy W 24th May 2008
by the market soundly rejecting its mediocrity for what
it is: mediocre junk.

Until then, one can only hope that its continued sloppy
products suffer an early death. (Did you hear about
Live Book Search? Soon it will be like Spot, PlaysForSure
and the soon to be dead but unlamented Zune: Dead
Book Search.)

When an organization produces as much shoddy junk
as MSFT and squanders as much money on marketing,
it is clear that the top management has no clue on
resource allocation. MSFT spent $billions to produce
the Vista miasma and then spent $hundreds of millions
to promote it. Still, it is widely viewed to be a
resounding failure, a smelly elephant no one wishes to
acknowledge.

Perhaps if MSFT mgmt understood that shoveling
$billions into marketing will not fix its product
development efforts, things might get better.
However, I strongly doubt anything will change until
Steve, Kevin and Robbie are shown the door. (Oh, you
can leave the door open for the Dead Search people as
well.)

We'll all be better off when MSFT is struggling like
General Motors and on death's doorstep.
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either you are ignorant
code_Warrior 25th May 2008
or you need mental help.
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Or...
SpikeyMike 29th May 2008
He's an astute student of history.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/

-Mike

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