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Why MinWin speculation matters

By | June 4, 2008, 9:05am PDT

MinWin has re-emerged as a source of debate since Microsoft last week released a few more details regarding Windows 7. Previous discussion of the “MinWin” kernel by engineers related to the Windows 7 team would have led one to believe that MinWin was a fancy new kernel that would be released with Windows 7. Steven Sinofsky, a man well positioned to know what he is talking about, explained that we already have MinWin, as MinWin is little more than a stripped down version of the Vista kernel, one that is shared with Server 2008 and which will be improved in Windows 7 timeframes.

The status of MinWin in Microsoft’s desktop and server products, however, is not the key reason people are so interested in the existence of a stripped-down Windows kernel (though it certainly matters, as it might hint at new levels of modularity). Rather, the interest in MinWin rests more on a realization that more and more embedded devices will share our lives in the future, causing desktop and servers to shrink as a percentage of the daily computing pie (though just as a percentage; it’s not so much that we will use desktops and servers less, but that we will use a lot more embedded devices).

This means Microsoft’s strategy vis a vis the embedded space is rather important. Right now, most of that strategy seems oriented around Windows CE (the base OS for Windows Mobile), an OS that was based on Windows-proper at some point in the past, but is clearly not Windows.

Contrast this with the strategy followed by some of Microsoft competitors. Apple has managed to fit a stripped-down version of their desktop operating system into both the iPhone and the iPod touch. This means that the exact same skills associated with desktop OS development work applies to iPhone and (eventually) iPod work, which makes the APIs unique to Mac development more interesting than their desktop market share alone might merit.  The wisdom of a common codebase only becomes more apparent as the iPod “halo” effect reinforces Mac market share.

Linux might not be lighting the world on fire in the desktop space, but it has a strong showing in the server space (though Windows is ahead there), and even stronger presence in the embedded space. Finding Linux in everything from Television Set-Top Boxes to network routers is common, and those embedded chops are being brought to bear on the mobile phone market. Big companies like Google, through its Android initiative, back Linux as an embedded platform, and some analysts think 23% of the mobile phone space could be Linux-powered by 2013. I believe that is very possible, as Linux is a commanding force in embedded development.

Microsoft’s biggest competitors, in other words, have had strong success turning a single OS platform into something that spans device categories.  Many people wonder when Microsoft plans to do the same, and MinWin seems the best path by which to make that happen.

Would a MinWin-based embedded strategy supplant Windows CE?  I don’t think so, as Windows CE is suited to resource-constrained environments in ways MinWin might not be…at least in the near term.  Code compatibility that stretches from the desktop and server space to embedded consumer devices, however, would be a pretty powerful competitive differentiator…particularly given the market share of desktop and server Windows.  

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John Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup.

Disclosure

John Carroll

http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1412

Biography

John Carroll

John Carroll has programmed in a wide variety of computing domains, including servers, client PCs, mobile phones and even mainframes. His current specialties are C#, .NET, Java, WIN32/COM and C++, and he has applied those skills in everything from distributed web-based systems to embedded devices. In his spare time, he enjoys the world of digital video, and served as director of photography and editor on a feature-length film produced in Limerick, Ireland, as well as a low-budget production filmed in Los Angeles that used Panavision digital cameras (the same ones used by George Lucas in the later Star Wars episodes).

John worked in Microsoft's Mediaroom division from May, 2005 to May, 2008. He is co-founder of ForgetMeNot Software, a creator of unified messaging software targeted at telecommunications providers, where he currently works as Director of Technology.

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Windows 7 buys Microsoft time to fix their mobile strategy
kirkaiya@... 28th Jan 2009
I think that it's now apparent, after their recent financial filings and layoffs, that Microsoft made several miscalculations, and executed poorly on others over the past four to six years.

First - they failed to radically improve their mobile OS (and I've used WinMo since it was CE 2.11, on my old Cassiopeia in 1999, and use an HTC Touch Diamond running WM 6.1 now). In the two years since Jobs demo'd the iPhone, and in 20 months since it launched, they've only managed a minor, incremental improvement of a sluggish, finger-unfriendly OS. If the iPhone, Android/G1, and Palm's new Pre with WebOS haven't put the fear of god in Microsoft's mobile division, I don't know what will. WM7's ship date continues to be a year away...

Second - Microsoft underestimated the netbook market, which Asus almost single-handedly created. As these low-cost, low-powered notebooks took off - especially given the global recession - a LOT of people were exposed to Linux for the first time. With no "light-weight" desktop OS of their own, aside from XP (which they were trying valiantly to shove off the stage), they lost many millions of potential revenue. And Windows 7, WinMin or no WinMin, isn't going to fix that in the next 12 months.

Finally - the botched mess that was Vista was undoubtedly a boon for both Apple and Canonical, and exposed additional people to the other OSes.

So - obviously, Windows 7 can't come soon enough, although the beta (which I've been running since Jan 1st) is excellent. It will buy Microsoft time, and money via licensing, to "get it" that a purely "desktop play" (e.g., Windows and Office) is doomed to long-term decline. Their Azure cloud layer and new data centers seem to show that *somebody* at gets it. Now they need to build a new, radically, amazingly better mobile OS, and fast. They need to link that new OS via services to their cloud-services including a web-based Office suite, and to push the "live mesh" rapidly forward so that the whole (Win 7 + WinMo + Azure + Mesh as glue) is compelling greater than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, the layoffs will continue, and future quarters' earnings will be grim.
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Presumably...
John L. Ries 4th Jun 2008
...Windows CE will continue to exist as a separate product, but future versions would use the MinWin kernel. I would find it hard to believe that MS would maintain multiple Windows kernels if they didn't have to.
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UNIX-like is more shrinkable
cruggeld 4th Jun 2008
Both Linux and Mac OS X easily being shrink for embedded purpose and both are UNIX-like. I believe the problem is about Windows internal design that very bloated and slow.
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RE: Why MinWin speculation matters
chessmen 4th Jun 2008
I disagree that Minwin is only important from the perspective of the embedded devices market. People are getting bloat fatigue, and want something that is small and FAST! Putting out bad code and waiting for Intel to fix it with yet another processor/memory upgrade is getting old.
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A microkernel won't necessarily help that
John L. Ries 4th Jun 2008
And in practice, I think MS would be faced with an OEM revolt if they made a serious effort to improve the efficiency of Windows. Computer manufacturers rely on slower software with increased memory and disk space requirements to help them sell new hardware.
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Code base issues
nwoodson@... 4th Jun 2008
We all know that MS has been supporting mulitple kernels, but the question is why? It's pretty apparent that scalability isn't high on MS's list of priorities. If they want to win the hearts and minds of developers it would seem that a portable set of APIs would be the logical place to start.

As has been said, Unix-like OSes have that advantage, but many people seem to resent that. One common kernel to define the OS with a flexible set of APIs to fit the hardware constraints would make Windows almost usable, but then the bloatfarm would have less control over your hardware configurations...wouldn't be prudent.
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MinWin sounds like a science project.
Anton Philidor 4th Jun 2008
Proof of concept of some sort.

Why would MinWin necessarily be relevant to Microsoft's efforts to make the software on all devices interoperable with other Microsoft devices? And also with devices using other software?

Remember when the company was making an effort to assure that its software was as malleable by customers as other software? That problem was solved in WinCE. Why not development platform issues as well?
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Actually MinWin sounds like...
TtfnJohn 4th Jun 2008
A character from a James Bond satire movie.

If the problem was actually solved with WinCE why does MS seem to be so interested in MinWin?

ttfn

john
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Timing
Harry Bardal 4th Jun 2008
The 2 years that we should expect MinWin to take is simply
too long. Microsoft will pay a large price for tardiness in
this newly invigorated and newly competitive marketplace.

iPhone 2 is out next week along with the app store. In all likelihood, the API will come out of beta. It caters to a
mature OS that crosses 2 chipsets and interoperates
comfortably with 3 platforms. The advantages of integrated
hardware and software are clearly being realized.
Consumers realize that fake choice is a red herring. They
have to walk out of the store with just one phone anyway.
The new focus is "use" and not "shopping".

The PC contingent has spun this and tried to "feminize"
Apple gear. The truth is the reverse. The conceit and vanity
don't lie in the cultivation of the device itself, but in the
cultivation of the "company store" that presumes to meet
all your needs with a fake and arbitrary selection of
trinkets and bobbles.

If Microsoft's record is any indication, MinWin will be
shipped too early to work but too late to matter. It will be
implemented improperly, bound to a bargain bin full of
cheap Chinese toys, flooded with thousands of mediocre
apps, and sold by an army of carnival barkers.
0 Votes
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Having it both ways
Yagotta B. Kidding 4th Jun 2008
John, I'll refer you to your (many) earlier writings on how important it is to Microsoft developers that they be able to count on the whole ball of wax, including MSIE, MS Media Player, several versions of MS.NET, MSOffice, and other platform components, when they create applications for "Microsoft Windows."

Microsoft has a lot invested in that "when you have a Microsoft platform, you have everything you need" brand message. Change it and they're going to have a lot of end-users complaining about how their brand shiny new platform doesn't run their tried and true mission-critical spambot -- or whatever.

The applications developers won't be all that happy, either -- for exactly the reasons you've gone to such pains explaining to us over the years.
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"Mission critical spambot"
fr0thy2 4th Jun 2008
I have no doubt that their newer kernel/API will allow plenty of room for a rework of all spambot code as necessary.
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Desktop Windows...
John Carroll 4th Jun 2008
...can still require all the subcomponents. Doesn't mean a componentized system that fits in smaller devices isn't an ideal.

I'm not advocating a slimmer desktop Windows. I'm advocating slimmable desktop Windows, one that creates a true unified surface area, even if lower-profile variants are found in devices with varying resource characteristics.
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Yagotta does have a point, though
John L. Ries 5th Jun 2008
If one wants to develop apps that will run on any Windows, then maybe he shouldn't rely on such "essential components" as IE and WMP. Just maybe the applications as essential components strategy, which many of us have long suspected to have been motivated more by monopoly preservation than by a desire to be nice to developers and users, should be abandoned.

Mind you, there are things one would want to develop for desktop Windows that would make no sense in the embedded world, but I think it better to have libraries for HTML rendering or streaming media, rather than "mandatory" utilities that have to be installed even if they can't be used (think of WMP on a machine without a sound card).
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Fair point
John Carroll 6th Jun 2008
...though again, standard utilities goes beyond mere programming APIs. I think most would agree that it is useful to have base APIs for HTML rendering as part of a platform. The issue is whether we need the IE frame.

I would argue that, on the variant licensed for desktop usage, it is required, simply because it creates a consistent USABILITY baseline. That matters, as the universality of Windows is aided by the fact that anyone can sit down at a Windows system and expect that it has the IE web browser.
0 Votes
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I am surprised that Microsoft is capable of anything at all.
0 Votes
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Why did you leave Joey!?1
Spiritusindomit@... 6th Jun 2008
I can't believe you left full house, what are the olsen twins to do?!?! *cries*

Now, on topic, minwin is 25mb, that's close to embedded level, however, it's far more viable as a basis for a refined server platform, which they desperately need.
I think that it's now apparent, after their recent financial filings and layoffs, that Microsoft made several miscalculations, and executed poorly on others over the past four to six years.

First - they failed to radically improve their mobile OS (and I've used WinMo since it was CE 2.11, on my old Cassiopeia in 1999, and use an HTC Touch Diamond running WM 6.1 now). In the two years since Jobs demo'd the iPhone, and in 20 months since it launched, they've only managed a minor, incremental improvement of a sluggish, finger-unfriendly OS. If the iPhone, Android/G1, and Palm's new Pre with WebOS haven't put the fear of god in Microsoft's mobile division, I don't know what will. WM7's ship date continues to be a year away...

Second - Microsoft underestimated the netbook market, which Asus almost single-handedly created. As these low-cost, low-powered notebooks took off - especially given the global recession - a LOT of people were exposed to Linux for the first time. With no "light-weight" desktop OS of their own, aside from XP (which they were trying valiantly to shove off the stage), they lost many millions of potential revenue. And Windows 7, WinMin or no WinMin, isn't going to fix that in the next 12 months.

Finally - the botched mess that was Vista was undoubtedly a boon for both Apple and Canonical, and exposed additional people to the other OSes.

So - obviously, Windows 7 can't come soon enough, although the beta (which I've been running since Jan 1st) is excellent. It will buy Microsoft time, and money via licensing, to "get it" that a purely "desktop play" (e.g., Windows and Office) is doomed to long-term decline. Their Azure cloud layer and new data centers seem to show that *somebody* at gets it. Now they need to build a new, radically, amazingly better mobile OS, and fast. They need to link that new OS via services to their cloud-services including a web-based Office suite, and to push the "live mesh" rapidly forward so that the whole (Win 7 + WinMo + Azure + Mesh as glue) is compelling greater than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, the layoffs will continue, and future quarters' earnings will be grim.

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