ie8 fix

A new method to study origin of life

By | September 3, 2008, 9:11am PDT

U.S. researchers at Penn State University have developed a new computational method to understand how life began on Earth about four billion years ago. According to the scientists, their method ‘has the potential to trace the evolutionary histories of proteins all the way back to either cells or viruses, thus settling the debate once and for all over which of these life forms came first.’ The method, which is based on the study of an ancient group of proteins called retroelements, produces a tree-like diagram, called a phylogenetic tree. One of the team leaders said that ‘it is within our grasp to determine whether viruses evolved from cells or vice-versa.’ Fascinating! But read more…

The baobab tree of life

You can see above an example of such a phylogenetic tree — for the baobab. “The baobab tree represents one of the most ancient species of life on the planet. In our paper, we investigate ancient and highly divergent proteins, called retroelements, whose evolutionary histories hold keys to uncovering the origins of life. Our research demonstrates that phylogenetic profiles generated using the Gestalt Domain Detection Algorithm-Basic Local Alignment Tool (GDDA-BLAST) provide an independent method for estimating the evolutionary histories of retroelements.” (Credit: Randen Patterson and Damian van Rossum, Penn State) Here is a link to a larger version of this picture (3,386 x 3,543 pixels, 6.80 MB).

This method has been developed at the Eberly College of Science of Penn State by Randen Patterson, an assistant professor of biology, with the help of Damian van Rossum, another assistant professor, and several other researchers.

Now, let’s look at the basis of this new computational method. “The team is focusing on an ancient group of proteins, called retroelements, which comprise approximately 50 percent of the human genome by weight and are a crucial component in a number of diseases, including AIDS. “Retroelements are an ancient and highly diverse class of proteins; therefore, they provide a rigorous benchmark for us to test our approach. We are happy with the results we derived, even though our method is in an early stage,” said Patterson. The team plans to make the algorithms that they used in their method available to others as open-source software that is freely available on the Web.”

For more information, please read the full Penn State news release. But for more details in plain English, you should read “Way to reveal the genesis of all life devised,” an article by Roger Highfield, Science Editor for The Telegraph, UK (September 2, 2008). “Many experts believe that the first kinds of life depended on RNA, a more flexible kind of genetic material than the DNA that today carries genes for most life on Earth. Now an American team proposes that a study be carried out of proteins that viruses and other parasites use to pirate DNA, and convert it into RNA, to reveal details of the kind of RNA genetic machinery that must have been present in the first life, which is estimated to have emerged about four billion years ago. The team at The Pennsylvania State University, Penn State, focuses on proteins such as the enzyme reverse transcriptase, which is used by the Aids virus (written in RNA) to alter the DNA or genetic material of an infected cell to produce more virus particles.”

This research work has been published online before print on September 2, 2008 by the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences as an open access article under the title “Phylogenetic profiles reveal evolutionary relationships within the ‘twilight zone’ of sequence similarity.” Here are two links to the abstract and to the full paper (PDF format, 6 pages, 475 KB).

For your convenience, here is an excerpt from the introduction of this highly technical article. “Here, we show that phylogenetic profiles generated with the Gestalt Domain Detection Algorithm–Basic Local Alignment Tool (GDDA-BLAST) are capable of deriving, ab initio, phylogenetic relationships for highly divergent proteins in a quantifiable and robust manner. Notably, the results from our computational case study of the highly divergent family of retroelements accord with previous estimates of their evolutionary relationships.”

When will we know if this new method is successful? Time will tell.

Sources: Penn State University Live News, September 2, 2008; and various websites

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Roland Piquepaille

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Roland Piquepaille

Roland Piquepaille passed away in early January 2009. He lived in Paris, France, and spent most of his career in software, mainly for high performance computing and visualization companies, working for example for Cray Research and Silicon Graphics. He left the corporate world in 2001 after 33 years immersed into it. In 2002, he started a blog about technology trends and how they will affect our lives.

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PROVE???? SCARED????
garylduncan@... 17th Sep 2008
Jim,

You accuse those who hold similar views to those who gave us the major disciplines of science as though we are not scientific because of our faith in God. Truth is, that we all live by faith. Your faith is in evolution, ours is in God. Einstein believed in God, so why do you presuppose that God is not a viable option for the beginning of life? Isn't science supposed to be unbiased, but rather go where the facts lead?

With all the most recent scientific discoveries of the complexity of life, and the REALITY that such complexity could never happen by chance and random processes, I believe it is your camp that is scared and looking for something that might prop up the evolutionary faith that is in crisis. Can a computer model determine what happened 4 billion years ago? Maybe, however, a computer will only give out perfect results if it has been perfectly programmed. Think about that for a moment. I used to work as a programmer. Think about Microsoft and all those constant stream of updates. Do you really think that computers will tell us where we came from and finally PROVE your case once and for all?

If so, I'm really sorry for your gullibility. But the fact will remain, we will all continue to live by our chosen faith.

As for your reference to the Bible, you show that you haven't done your research before you made your comments. You don't understand how translation works, and you don't know the facts about how many manuscripts (over 5000) and non-biblical sources of antiquity that all establish the biblical confidence as far as being what the original authors wrote. If you believe that the Bible is not accurate or been translated reliably, why don't you research it and prove it? That would be easier than trying to prove the origin of life 4 billion years ago, wouldn't it?
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Baloney, Malarkey, Horsecrap.
MC1171611 3rd Sep 2008
First, they need to prove that life has an origin other than that described in ancient literature by eyewitnesses. There is no evidence for an evolutionary process of life whatsoever. Evolutionists point to speciation as we see it today (i.e. finches, dog varieties, etc.) and extrapolate that to say that everything has a common ancestor. Just because there are Doberman Pincers and Schnauzers doesn't mean we evolved from a slime that came from a rock umpteen billion years ago.

And like a computer can figure it out without evidence and hard proof to go on. These people are wasting taxpayers' money on worthless nonsense.
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2/10
rpmyers1 3rd Sep 2008
Could be better, skip "evolutionists"
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I don't see it as a waste of taxpayers money...
Jim Blaine - Bellingham WA. 3rd Sep 2008
I see it as a way to finally answer so many questions that religion cannot, no matter how hard to twist it. The fact that we might soon be able to establish the origins of life and then PROVE how it happened scares your doesn't it?

It scares you because your entire belief system is wrapped up in a compilation of stories that have been translated and translated yet again and again. And you have invested so much emotion into believing that the mere thought of it all being refuted terrifies you... because then what?

Interesting times we live in I say. And the sooner we can prove our origin and validate evolution the sooner we can move on to the next phase of living.
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Um, yeah. Nope.
MC1171611 3rd Sep 2008
I don't know what you're talking about. Evolution hasn't provided a single thing. In fact, almost every single branch of scientific study was pioneered by men who believed in the Biblical account of Creation. THAT is something that has contributed to science, not Evolution.

You can try to use that pseudo-science to "prove" something all day long, but evolution rests solely on the belief of it's believers, not on evidence of any sort. Period.
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Never studied much science huh?
brendan@... 4th Sep 2008
Evolution was indeed developed by someone raised to believe the Biblical story of creation. But as far as contribution goes, what evolution provided was the science of biology and genetics, which require evolution to understand in a non-piecemeal way.
The proof of evolution isn't the theory, it's what the theory predicts as far as how the development of life played itself out. And despite huge gaps in the fossile record, every bit of information available is 100% supportive of Evolution
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"huge gaps," "fossile record"
MC1171611 4th Sep 2008
There aren't just "gaps" in the fossil record: it is nothing BUT a gigantic gap! Evolution can't explain the Cambrian explosion, fossil graveyards, coal seams, pressurized oil deposits, lack of transitional fossils (Archeopteryx is a BIRD), or how in the world a half-dino half-bird survived for millions of years while his yet-flightless wings were transitioning from weakened limbs. Evolution is nothing but an enormous gap and lack of evidence.
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So you think we are lucky enough to have
James Quinn 5th Sep 2008
every kind of animal and plant fossilized? Man you are an
optimist. I for one would think that transitional animals
might the the hardest to come by for by their very nature
they are in flux and would be considered not very likely to
last over the long term leaving less bodies to fossilize. Nor
has everything been discovered yet I don't know when we
can say that every single corner of the globe has been
explored.

The very fact that we found a small feathered lizard with
wing like arms is a triumph of the theories of evolution for
it makes little sense. Nor do feathers on Raptors even less
when you think about it. However I think a small lizard
with feathers and wing like arms could have had an edge
with competing for food. Winged insects might have
posed a problem for other small dino's and lizards but the
bird like one could leap into the air and perhaps be faster
and gain more height using it's strange wing like arms to
catch a dragon fly on the wing. Giving it an edge and a
food source that others could not tap into at that time. But
hey I'm no scientist..:P

Pagan jim
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So......still no proof
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
If there are no fossil record of any of the "dreamed-up" animals that evolutionist love to illustrate, where did they get the drawings? Oh, I forgot, they used their imaginations.

hey I'm no scientist.

You like to imagine non-existent creatures just like evolution "scientists", so you're as much of a scientist as they are.

It's sad that you poke fun at someone who believes in an "imaginary God", yet praise those who believe in imaginary creatures that there is far less evidence for than there is for God.

And please, no long diatribe trying to change the subject, just state the "Theory of Evolution". If it is truly "scientific, there should be a theory that you could recite.
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I was using the fossil record about the Dino with wings
that looks very much like a cross bettween a bird and a
lizard. Where did you come up with made up creatures?
The fossil is one of the best preserved examples of a
complete creature on record.

Based on science and our accumulated knowledge of bio
mechanics we can put together how these creatures
moved. So we can theorize why such a creature existed
and how it might have had an advantage over other similar
sized creatures in it's world.

If you wish to prove God to me I'm all ears and failing eyes
failing not because of anything I did to them mind you but
because they as they stand are an imperfect design. A
design that is hard to explain if I was created by a perfect
being but easy to explain by evolution. Evolution does not
create perfection often except for maybe a shark..heh heh
heh. However it does make stuff that works like the
human eye flawed as it is it does it's job good enough for
now. If I were a perfect being creating a body type I'd be
very ashamed at Man 1.0 and be rushing to push out Man
2.0 as soon as possible. Being diabetic i'm very close to
the many failing and odd parts of the human body. These
failings and or flaws and odd pieces parts can be
explained by random chaos of evolution but are much
harder to explain by creation.

I think I already gave it an attempt that whole evolution
thing below.

Pagan jim
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Dreamed-up animals
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
Your evolutionists have a whole bunch of drawings that there is no fossil record of, hence made-up animals. I didn't get them anywhere, you evolutionists made them up not me.

And, no, it was a poor attempt to state a simple theory that you believe in. I have asked you for this one simple thing many times here, and you keep dodging it and cannot answer.
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Or that I excepted any that did not have some sort of
evidence? You assume much my friend.

I think I did a fairly good job of explaining my views and
why I have them below. In a previous post.

Evolution is a theory based on science

Creation is a theory based on ideal, belief, fantasy etc..

Pagan jim
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Simple
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
You believe the evolution nonsense. Books about evolution are loaded with creatures that don't exist and that there is no fossil record for. Seems logical then that you accept these "made-up" creatures as real.

And no, you did a lousy job of stating a non-existent theory. You didn't even try a rough wording of it.
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do make huge leaps into the world of make believe as it is
so I guess it's understandable.

As I've already stated time and again here I base much of
my decisions based on what I have observed in the world
around me. People and animals who are born with strange
mutations. Organs that are flawed even when perfectly
normal or organs that have no purpose. I am without my
toncels, gal bladder, and ependix and have never suffered
any for their loss. Extra limbs and digets the list goes on
and on and on and over my short 45 years it happens
often enough it would seem. So no books have not made
up a great deal of my opinion on the subject however my
casual observations have. Am I happy that the vast
majority of the true scientific world agrees with me...SURE!
Who does not like backup!?! But it's not been anything I
depend on to make a point I trust my own faulty eyes and
the mind that evolution gave me to work it out on my own.

Pagan jim
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You make a very good point
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
You have observed many "mutations" and deformities and such, yet not one of these traits have resulted in new species. Have you ever noticed that all observed mutations have never successfully continued? Two-headed animals have never mated and produced other two-headed animals

The very fact that no observed mutations have started a new branch in your tree should give you a clue that evolution is absurd.

I left some meat out on the porch one day. When I returned I noticed that the meat had apparently turned into flies. That used to be an accepted scientific fact. But when you apply true science, it quickly become apparent that meat does not turn into flies.

If only true science would be applied to evolution, it too is quickly discovered to be nonsense.
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And you miss the point...:P
James Quinn 5th Sep 2008
Success is its own reward. There is no need to create
another species at this moment in history. The successful
adaptions get the bread the failures do not. In evolution
you have a combo effect formerly successful species are
failing due to changes. They are dying out. Newer
adaptions that are more likely to survive get to breed and
pass on their traits to newer generations. It's not a single
path but a failing of other speicies that might have kept
the new ones down and a success of new one's to over
take and eventually replace the old. We are not failing
right now.....

Now back a few hundred years ago you might have passed
your meat observations off a science but even then I think
a true scientist would have done a better job of
observation than leaving the meat alone for extended
periods of time. He/she might have closely observed flies
visiting the meat and larve showing up after the fly visits
and eventually turning from larve into flies. But hey that's
just me I guess. You do believe in fairies after all:)

Pagan jim
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Oh, wait....
laura.b Updated - 8th Sep 2008
You're actually SERIOUS???

Wow, I didn't realize people as misinformed as you still existed outside of those whackjobs at answersingenesis. Are you really Ken Hamm? Or just someone who thinks that its prudent to trust your pastor on the notion of science? Either way it's sad.

Tell you what, let's focus on one point at a time. My personal fave: transitional fossils. You claim there aren't any. There are THOUSANDS. Here's a great list of some of the more common and popular ones (compiled by wikipedia, but you can check the references yourself if you like):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossils


Eat that creationist rhetoric that you have been spilling.
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Clueless
Mike Hunt 9th Sep 2008
You reference wikipedia as a science authority. How pathetic!

This is rich: (from their site)
According to modern evolutionary theory, all populations of organisms are in transition.

So, if you start with the conclusion that evilution is true, then anything that you see will be in that light. If you are so empty inside that you refuse to accept the possibility of creation, you will never see any truth.

Is "Piltdown Man" one of your "transitional" stages?
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Um, yeah. Yeah.
olePigeon 4th Sep 2008
"I don't know what you're talking about."

First reasonable thing you've stated.

"Evolution hasn't provided a single thing."

Genomics and genetics. Understanding how bacteria and
viruses change and evolve to become resistant to
vaccines and treatments so we can develop new vaccines
and treatments.

Here's a recent example of how understanding evolution
could also be partly responsible for a discovery for a
vaccine to HIV. The Delta-32 gene mutation was first
discovered by scientists researching HIV and how it works,
but the development of the mutation was traced back to
the 14th and 15th century during the bubonic plague
outbreak. This was an important discovery because many
records were kept on who contracted the disease, who
survived, and who the living decedents are that currently
carry this potentially very important gene mutation.

"...Biblical account of Creation. THAT is something that
has contributed to science, not Evolution."


Religion and should be mutually exclusive. Ones personal
beliefs have no baring on the scientific method, unless the
person testing manipulates the data.

Christian Scientists (as in the organization) have made zero
meaningful contributions to general science.

"You can try to use that pseudo-science to "prove"
something all day long, but evolution rests solely on the
belief of it's believers, not on evidence of any sort.
Period."


There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that
supports evolution by natural selection. The above
example I gave about the Delta-32 gene is just one
obvious example. Suppose the bubonic plague had a 100%
infection rate of Europe, Central Asia, and the Indian
subcontinent? The only people who would likely survive
would be the people with the Delta-32 mutation. Since
only people with the Delta-32 mutation would be alive to propagate, future generations would be immune to the
bubonic plague. A gene beneficial to survival will be
passed on to future generations, evolving a species.

Evolution by natural selection.

Even so, that is only one example of countless examples
aside from fossil evidence, controlled experiments, and
even relatively recent examples such as the one above.

I can pretty much guarantee that you're an Intelligent
Design proponent. So I might as will kill two birds with
one stone.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-
bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
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Hardly
Mike Hunt 4th Sep 2008
If this "Theory of Evolution" is so scientific, then please state it for us. What's that? There really is no theory? Wow! More like several almost theories, combined into one messed up speculation, if that.

The other poster was correct, evolution, as it supposedly pertains to the origin of man, is nothing but a continuing line of hoaxes and pseudo-science. What hoax are we on now, the midget?

Did you notice that even after each hoax has been exposed, the "evolutionary time-line" didn't change? Neither did it change after the discovery that carbon-dating was highly inaccurate.
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"If this "Theory of Evolution" is so scientific, then please
state it for us. What's that? There really is no theory? Wow!
More like several almost theories, combined into one
messed up speculation, if that."


If you won't listen, you won't learn anything. I already
stated what the Theory of Evolution is. You keep putting
your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA LA" when the
evidence is provided, then turn around to circular
arguments bringing up crap that's already been addressed.

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is exactly as
the title says, the evolution of a species via natural
selection.

It's very simple, though I see you're having a hard time
grasping the concept, so I'll break it down to you in very,
very, simple terms. If you have an organism with two
genetic subgroup, A & B, that live in conditions X.
Organism A has no beneficial genetic traits that will allow it
to survive conditions X. B, on the other hand, has genetic
traits that will allow it to survive conditions X. A dies
off, B continues to live. B will now pass on its beneficial
genetic traits, thereby evolving the species as all future
generations will be protected from conditions X. If
conditions Y come around, all species within B that have
genetic traits that will allow them to survive (species C) will
pass on their genetic traits to future generations while
B dies off.

"The other poster was correct, evolution, as it supposedly
pertains to the origin of man, is nothing but a continuing
line of hoaxes and pseudo-science. What hoax are we on
now, the midget?"


... I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I suppose
ignorance knows no bounds. I'll bite and answer anyway.
Here's a quick lesson on science: it changes and (heh)
evolves. The most likely answer is weighed on evidence, it
doesn't always mean it's the correct answer, but most
likely
to be correct. That is why scientists very rarely
say things like "always" or "100% certain" or "is absolutely
correct," especially in paleontology, anthropology, and
evolutionary biology.

The scientific method requires testing and retesting,
reproduction of results, peer review, and even more
testing and reproduction. It is meticulous. Instead of
jumping to wiled accusations, you should try something
first: read. Assimilate the information.

The great thing about science is that you don't have
to agree with the results. It wouldn't be science if
everyone was a Yes Man, that's what Religion is for. A
requirement for a scientific theory is that it can be shown
to be wrong. If it is wrong, why was it wrong, and
what did we learn from it?

Science is rarely about setting a goal and then "Eureka!;"
it's more like "Oh, that was weird" with results completely
unrelated to the test (but no less important to discovery.)

"Did you notice that even after each hoax has been
exposed, the "evolutionary time-line" didn't change?"


What hoax?

"Neither did it change after the discovery that carbon-
dating was highly inaccurate."


Carbon dating is fairly accurate up to about 60,000 years.
The reason it's accurate to a degree is because carbon has
a half-life of roughly 5730 years. That doesn't change
until you start leaving the planet itself. Given the time
frame, variation of a few hundred years is reasonably
accurate. That's why they're called estimates.

Potassium Argon dating is used for ranges up to 200+
million years. The variation is larger, but again, given the
time frame, it is reasonably accurate.

Multiple samples and multiple tests give a mean result and
a reasonably accurate estimate of a date. Neither test is
100% accurate, but unless someone is able to travel
through time (unlikely), it's good enough.
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Comprehension problems?
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
I asked you for the actual wording of your so-called "Evolution Theory", you haven't produced it, you go on and on about your faith in evolution, but fail to produce any "Theory".

For example, one can state the theory of gravity. (Roughly) "Objects have an attraction for other objects that is directly proportional to their mass and inversely proportional to the distance between them". That is the "Theory of Gravity" stated in a form that everyone understands. It is able to be tested scientifically by anyone. It can be shown to be an actual force without any imaginary drawings.

Maybe you don't understand that scientific theories can be stated as such. You cannot state the "Theory of Evolution", but merely go on and on about what it's all about.

Since there is no working theory that can be stated, you have no basis in science.

Believe me, I "listened" to each and every bit of what you "said", no matter how painful, but what you said is babble about your "observations" instead of using your so-called science to show us this "Theory".

If your so-called theory was proven as you claim, then it would be called the "Law of evolution", as in "Newtons LAWS of motion". But still, there is no theory that you can state.

And YOU accuse ME of "not listening"
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Must you be so obtuse?
Jim Blaine - Bellingham WA. 5th Sep 2008
"The definition
Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.

The explanation
Biological evolution is not simply a matter of change over time. Lots of things change over time: trees lose their leaves, mountain ranges rise and erode, but they aren't examples of biological evolution because they don't involve descent through genetic inheritance.

The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.

Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we're all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales.
"

This is from a UC Berkley course, understanding evolution 101. If you need to understand and learn what evolution is then go here and get an education. It's very thorough and extremely informative for those with an open mind.
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Must you be so dense?
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
I asked, many times, for someone to simply state the "Theory of Evolution". I didn't ask for an explanation of evolution, nor for examples, nor for the belief system that allows one to reject creation.

Simply state this "theory" or simply admit that there is no "theory".

Is my question so brilliant that all of this so-called science can't state the obvious; THERE IS NO "THEORY" OF EVOLUTION.

Do you even know the definition of a scientific theory? If so please state the "Theory" of evolution.

Is obtuse your "word of the day"? I always thought that I was kinda acute myself.
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I provided what you requested and
Jim Blaine - Bellingham WA. 5th Sep 2008
yet you still fail to recognize the answer provided. So it becomes readily apparent that you are incapable of non-violent communication, let alone intellectual discourse.

You have been given what you asked for but again you are being obtuse. But that is quite fine as that is your inalienable right to exercise. But you may wish to also exercise your right to an education and move beyond a single source for your information. It does severely limit you, which of course could explain the derogatory and hostile responses you have made through out this particular blog.

One thing is for certain, you are not exercising good christian values. You may also consider going back to your book of faith and read up on the following:

John 6:37
John 13:14-15
Matthew 11:29
Matthew 18:4
Matthew 20:26-28
Micah 6:8
Proverbs 3:33-35
Psalms 34:2
Samuel 16:7

And finally
Ecclesiastes 7:9
Ephesians 4:26
Matthew 5:22
Romans 12:19
Proverbs 12:16
Proverbs 14:29
Proverbs 15:1
Proverbs 27:3
Proverbs 29:8
Psalms 37:8

So maybe you need to go back and relearn what it means to be christian and what christian values are. I am not one and yet I seem to exercise more christian values that yourself. And that should bring only shame upon you for failing in your faith. And be wary, yours if a vengeful diety.
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No, you did not
Mike Hunt 6th Sep 2008
You gave definitions, explanations and some other bull, but you did not provide the "Theory", because there isn't one.

Do you claim that the bold type that you provided was in some way the theory? Do you even know what a scientific theory is? For example, the "Theory of Gravity" states (roughly) "Objects have an attraction to other objects that is directly proportional to their mass and inversely proportional to the distance between them." (again that is roughly stated). It's reproducible, testable, verifiable and is narrowly defined, you can't provide what I asked for, because evolution is a jumbled mix of several "schools of thought", but it is not a scientific theory.

And how hilarious of you, an evolution believer, to try and give me a lesson in Christianity. FYI, being a Christian does not mean to be silent while someone is spewing anti-God nonsense. You should study those verses yourself, but of course you can't understand the Bible if you don't believe that God created the universe and man.

Let's look at some of your verses.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is Jesus speaking (the text is in red) and saying that he has been given the authority to forgive anyone that comes to him, no matter what their sin. It does not mean that you should welcome those who reject God. Those who believe in evolution, by definition, do not believe God, and therefore have rejected Jesus. After all, God created man in his own image, and obviously he wasn't a brainless one celled organism floating aimlessly in the ocean. Maybe you should seek Jesus and gain understanding.

John 13:14-15, 14 If I then, your Lord and master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one anothers feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Again, Jesus is speaking, and saying that we should all serve and help one another. In his example, washing others feet was part of a tradition of treating people kindly and showing your love for them. And, obviously I can't wash someone's feet if they are trying to kick me in the teeth.

Washing your feet, in another way, includes telling you that the word of God is the truth, and evolution is a lie. Man did not "evolve" from primordial slime, he was created by God, in his own image. God's word says that He has always been the same as He is now. No evolution there.

Matthew 11:29 (Don't skip 11:28) 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yolk is easy, and my burden is light.

Again we have Jesus speaking and calling to all to accept him and to be like him so that they can be saved. He says that he is meek, meaning: "strength under control". Meek does not mean to be a doormat for those who promote evil. Meek does not mean a weak slobbering fool, sorry that it didn't work that way for you. He says He is lowly in heart, meaning as loving and serving as is possible, not a feeble weakling as you appear to want it to mean.

Jesus became enraged and turned over the tables of the money changers that had set up in the temple. He didn't try to wash their feet or be nice to them.

I could go on, but I'm sure that if you don't get it by now, it will take more than I can muster to open your eyes. I will also call you out and say that I believe that you copied and pasted your verse citing from some anti-God website in a feeble attempt to belittle those that do believe in God. I doubt that you put this together yourself.

Are your beliefs in evolution so uncertain that an opposing viewpoint is all that it takes to shake them so hard that you freak-out?

So, now you've shown your ignorance in two subjects, way to go! I bet that you can't even read each verse that you cited, let alone understand what you read. But I'd still strongly suggest that you do read them, and the rest.
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Gravity
laura.b 8th Sep 2008
WRONG.

There is not one theory of gravity. There is Newton's theory, theory of relativity, quantum mechanics.....and dozens of others.

Try again, or just shut up as you just don't know what you're talking about.
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Uhhhh, no, it's right
Mike Hunt 9th Sep 2008
Fg = G [(mass1 x mass2) / r^2]

"Every object in the universe attracts every other object with a force directed along the line of centers for the two objects that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the separation between the two objects."

Whether correct or not is irrelevant to the fact that their is a scientific theory.

I have a theory too; the stuff that you are smoking is tainted with paraquat, you should throw it away and get some good stuff before your brain is completely gone.
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Please state
laura.b 8th Sep 2008
the theory of gravitation. Just one, single unified theory, just what you are claiming doesn't exist for evolution.

We'll wait. It doesn't exist, of course, so I fully expect you to come back arguing that gravity doesn't exist either. Please, please, please, please test it for yourself. I beg you. The taller the object the better.
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Here you go
Mike Hunt 9th Sep 2008
Fg = G [(mass1 x mass2) / r^2]

"Every object in the universe attracts every other object with a force directed along the line of centers for the two objects that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the separation between the two objects."

Now run along and STFU!
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Science Media on the Internet
aeriform 4th Sep 2008
Bacteria showing resistance to vaccines and treatments does not prove it is a part of evolution (macroscopic biological, or the creation of new species where the new species are no longer able to breed with the species they originated from). It simply shows that a form of selection is taking place. This form of selection could be a small part of evolution or it could exist separate from a non-existing evolution. The occurrence of natural selection does not immediately imply evolution exists in of itself.

I had never heard of Christian Scientists (the denomination/organization/...). I learn something new everyday, thanks. I don't think that group is what people commonly, if ever, refer to when talking about creationists, intelligent design proponents, ... at least with the scientists I talk with.

About the only thing that you wrote that is (almost) correct is "Religion and [the scientific method] should be mutually exclusive." They are exclusive in the sense that the scientific method seeks some truth never really knowing with absolute certainty that something is true, while religion assumes the certainty of truth of something is known. However they are linked if ones religion is the scientific method where one assumes that the closest way of being certain something is true is through its approximation using the scientific method.

Note that newscientist.com is not a very good location to obtain "facts" from, although it is useful in tracking some potentially new developments. But those developments don't seem to be peer reviewed, contain easily found errors or misdirection, support conjecture, and are biased towards the writer's personal beliefs rather than the current state of science. I don't doubt the scientists actually involved in the article you mentioned really believe in what they're saying, but that doesn't make it true.

Usually when a scientist with some rigour finds a single discrepancy, as in the new scientist link you provided, it usually means the scientist made an error (it happens all the time) or contamination occurred (it happens all the time). Honest peer review and reproducibility are necessary components of the scientific method to ensure results are as truthful as possible given the current state of science during the time and environment the experiments are conducted within.
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Ha! Very funny
James Quinn 5th Sep 2008
You make claims yet present no proof.

Show me the difference between scientists you believe in
and the pseudo examples. Give me some evidence beyond
empty claims will you?

Somehow I think this will boil down to this. Your claims
will not be backed up rather well Your scientists will be
revealed to be pseudo. The vast majority of respected
scientists in the field today do not agree with you or your
claims. And you haven't kept up with the real science used
today.

Pagan jim
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ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
laura.b 8th Sep 2008
PSEUDO-SCIENCE????



THE IDIOT CLAIMING THAT 99.99999% OF SANE BIOLOGISTS ARE JUST MAKING SH*T UP AND CLAIMS THE BIBLE IS ACCURATE IS GRIPING ABOUT PSEUDO-SCIENCE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Whoo. That was the best laugh I've had since I heard McCain's speech the other night. Keep it up, this is a riot.
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Ignorance is bliss, eh?
Mike Hunt 9th Sep 2008
99.99%????? You wish! There are at least 3 "schools of thought" as to how the evilution fantasy works, so there is no way that 99.99% agree on anything other than a fear of admitting the possibility of God and creation.

Some people use laughter as a defense mechanism to avoid pain. You seem to use it to avoid knowledge. To each his/her own I guess.
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And religions don't?
viztor 9th Sep 2008
.
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PROVE???? SCARED????
garylduncan@... 17th Sep 2008
Jim,

You accuse those who hold similar views to those who gave us the major disciplines of science as though we are not scientific because of our faith in God. Truth is, that we all live by faith. Your faith is in evolution, ours is in God. Einstein believed in God, so why do you presuppose that God is not a viable option for the beginning of life? Isn't science supposed to be unbiased, but rather go where the facts lead?

With all the most recent scientific discoveries of the complexity of life, and the REALITY that such complexity could never happen by chance and random processes, I believe it is your camp that is scared and looking for something that might prop up the evolutionary faith that is in crisis. Can a computer model determine what happened 4 billion years ago? Maybe, however, a computer will only give out perfect results if it has been perfectly programmed. Think about that for a moment. I used to work as a programmer. Think about Microsoft and all those constant stream of updates. Do you really think that computers will tell us where we came from and finally PROVE your case once and for all?

If so, I'm really sorry for your gullibility. But the fact will remain, we will all continue to live by our chosen faith.

As for your reference to the Bible, you show that you haven't done your research before you made your comments. You don't understand how translation works, and you don't know the facts about how many manuscripts (over 5000) and non-biblical sources of antiquity that all establish the biblical confidence as far as being what the original authors wrote. If you believe that the Bible is not accurate or been translated reliably, why don't you research it and prove it? That would be easier than trying to prove the origin of life 4 billion years ago, wouldn't it?
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sense what so ever. Who were the eyewitnesses you claimed?
If it's God whom some ancient text claimed was the one who
did the creating then he was logically the only eyewitness to
said. However since I do not have any reason to think that
there is indeed a God I don't take the text serious either.

Pagan jim
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"First, they need to prove that life has an origin
other than that described in ancient literature by
eyewitnesses."

They must have been non-living eyewitnesses.

Man created god in the image of what was mysterious
and unexplainable to Him. That's why the concept of
god has evolved through time.
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Wait wait wait
seanferd 12th Sep 2008
"life has an origin other than that described in ancient literature by eyewitnesses."

So, there were eyewitnesses sitting about, recording for posterity their personal accounts of the origin of life?
How does that work?

Would that be like, "Holy smokes, I'm being created! I'm alive! I'd better start taking notes."

By all means, follow your faith wholeheartedly, but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.

If you are going to comment on science, at least get a basic grip on it. Otherwise, all you have to offer is your own "Baloney, Malarkey, Horsecrap."
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"thus settling the debate once and for all over which of these life forms came first"

First, why don't they work on providing evidence as to how life came from non life, and maybe actually reproduce it in a lab! If they ever get that done THEN they can figure out who came first.

C@RL
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Exactly.
MC1171611 4th Sep 2008
Guessing where it descended from is pointless if they can't even prove it started! Abiogenesis is hilarious: they want to ignore the fact that we've NEVER observed living material arise from non-living material and insert the magical "billions and billions of years" mantra that somehow takes all their problems away.

Great point, my friend.
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Their starting point
Mike Hunt 4th Sep 2008
It isn't scientific, it is based on a refusal to accept the possibility of creation. If they only relied on real science, game over.
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God is a fairy tale not science.....
James Quinn 5th Sep 2008
Still I should give you a chance to go beyond a blank empty
statement. OK define "REAL" science for me. I suspect that
you would not recognize said if it bit you on the blank but
hey I'm up for a good laugh.

Pagan jim
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Real science?
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
The theory of gravity roughly states: Objects have an attraction to each other that is directly proportional to their mass and inversely proportional to the distance between them.

Gravity can be measured, observed and the theory can be verified with existing objects.

OK, your turn, state the "Theory of Evolution".
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proven is stops being said. Gravity is no longer a theory.

So Evolution is a theory based on science. Creationisim is a
theory based on belief in a poorly written story.

Pagan jim
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Like I thought, you can't state it
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
There is not now, nor has there ever been a theory that anyone can state. Just a mixture of some science, a lot of pseudo-science and a lot of imagination.

Sorry, but evolution is no more proven than the existence of God. It is not based on science, no matter how loudly of often it is proclaimed.
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OK lets examine this...
James Quinn 5th Sep 2008
God based on a book of poorly written stories (I've read
said and been told that I can't understand it because I don't
ahve the Holy Spirit in me) I understand the Koran
required that you know ancient arabic a language not fully
understood by many today. Seems every Holy Book has
it's out. But lets go on shall we. In these text are stories
that can not be verified and claims by witnesses that can
not be checked. You have to take their word for it.

The Theory of Evolution is not yet proven beyond a doubt
but it is based very much on science. Sometimes
imagination is used but even then it is not scientifically
excepted until it is proven and over these many years a lot
of imagination has been dis-proven, or proven using tests
scientific tests. For instance a small anole lizard who's life
span if very short but it does make a lot of babies was
taken to an island where the native plants had branches
that required a greater reach than the average lizard of
that type had. They knew what the reach of tha Anole was
when they left it on that island and after a appropriate time
passed for several generations to come and go they
returned to the island to find the average length of the
lizards limbs had increased to accomodate the need for a
larger reach. Dogs are a great test bed. We can bread
selective traits into or out of dogs to create whole new
breeds in a matter of a few generations. Size,
temperment, abilities, intelligence, you name it I would not
be shocked to see someone bread a talking dog someday.

Pagan jim
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Still playing dodge-ball?
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
I didn't ask for more "imagination", all I'd like to see is someone to state this "theory". If you can't, then just tell the truth, there isn't one. Here's a clue; the so-called "Theory of Evolution" is, at best, a loosely related collection of at least three schools of thought on exactly what evolution is.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm fascinated by the imagination, and love tall tales, but let's not interject science where none exists.
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You on the other hand have no answers to the many
questions that i struggle with like why would a god create
a being with extra pieces parts in them that have no
function If removed they don't hinder the operated person
in the least and I can attest to that in fact some require
removal for they can cause serious injury even death if not
removed. Why would a god create a person all person with
structualy flawed eyes? What is the REASON for such an
action? Why are people even today born with tails? HUH!?!
What about the extra limbs and digets?

I think this is just another case of the crazy faith cults
coming together with their latest talking point. Hey we
can't even come close to proving god and based on that
anything we say based on the existence of said fictional
being will be thrown out we have to attack evolution as a
fake science which it is not. Nothing is excepted in the
scientific community unless it is proven. End of story.
They are working daily on this theory and making headway
as I watch history and discovery channels.

The real problem for you and your ilk is that their is a real
chance that someday perhaps not soon that evolution will
cross from theory to fact. Yet your so called theory will
never be proven for there is no god to prove.

If you believe in a perfect being creating a creature in his
image then it's impossible to explain why we are the way
we are because it just does not make sense. Either this
being you believe in is not perfect or his work is sub par.
Either way it leaves a whole lot of questions assuming you
take that huge leap of faith in the first place that is.

Pagan jim
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Yep, dodgeball!
Mike Hunt 5th Sep 2008
I only asked one thing, you can't answer with anything real, so I take it that you don't even have a theory. That leaves fantasy my friend.

My beliefs are also based on observations, and there is no scientific proof for my belief. Why would I pretend that science applies to my belief?

Oh well, I'm getting bored playing dodgeball with you, especially when you can't return the ball when I throw it. It's like those that continue to pummel the younger kids with the ball even while they are laying on the ground crying, it is pointless.
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So fess up old man what do you have? How did you come
by your beliefs?

Oh and I'm like 45.

I don't think you've even come close to me with your ball
skills but perhaps that is my failing eyesight and never
damage due to my diabetes that I was born with...yet
another gift from your fairy?

You still can't explain why your god would design a faulty
eye to place in everyone of his creations now can you?
Evolution can explain why some of our organs have no use
today and why our eyes did not develop perfectly but have
flaws based on countless years of experimentation and
adaptions that came to a solution that works but only just
enough so that major changes are at this time in our
history not needed. But the fact remains that a speeding
dodge ball could hit you in the back of the head and the
vibration for such and impact could tear your retna right
away from the eye wall leaving you blind. A very poor
design indeed.



Pagan jim

Pagan jim

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