Should engineers fix climate change?

By | September 25, 2008, 10:11am PDT

Summary: Two weeks ago, I wrote that 1,500 ships could fight climate change. Many readers sent me interesting comments. And of those, who wants to remain anonymous, sent me his thoughts about climate change. This started a conversation between the two of us and you’ll see the result of our exchange below. Essentially, this person — let’s call him Joe — is asking if we should we build ‘environmental machines’ to fix climate change or leave it to nature. Obviously, this would require that governments significantly reduce or eliminate most industrial sources of pollution within 30 years. Even if I don’t totally agree with Joe’s views, they’re worth reading. Please tell us what you think…

Two weeks ago, I wrote that 1,500 ships could fight climate change. Many readers sent me interesting comments. And one of those, who wants to remain anonymous, sent me his thoughts about climate change. This started a conversation between the two of us and you’ll see the result of our exchange below. Essentially, this person — let’s call him Joe — is asking if we should we build ‘environmental machines’ to fix climate change or leave it to nature. Obviously, this would require that governments significantly reduce or eliminate most industrial sources of pollution within 30 years. Even if I don’t totally agree with Joe’s views, they’re worth reading. Please tell us what you think…

Joe starts by saying that “Greenland and Antarctica (the two largest bodies of ice in the world) are visibly contracting in size as climate change causes them to melt and sea levels to rise. Most corporations have accepted that climate change is caused by mankind and have introduced new consumer products that are slightly less damaging to the environment. Many governments appear to have finally accepted that climate change exists after years of denial but still seem to avoid leading their populations towards a less polluting style of living.”

Greenland ice sheet in 2006

You can see above a graphic showing “the height of the Greenland ice sheet in 2006 (left) and during the last interglacial period about 130,000 years ago, when the Arctic was 5 to 8°F (3 to 5°C) warmer in the summer.” (Credit: Bette Otto-Bliesner, National Center for Atmospheric Research, link to a larger version) You’ll find more details by reading Greenland’s Ice Melt Grew by 250 Percent, Satellites Show (John Roach, for National Geographic News, September 20, 2006)

Let’s return to Joe’s arguments. “Many governments appear to have finally accepted that climate change exists and is caused by human activities after years of denial [For an example, read President Bush Rejects Climate Change Report (Cat Lazaroff, Environment News Service, June 5, 2002).] Having world leaders agree that there is a problem and that ‘we’ have caused it might lead people to believe that plans were afoot to solve the causes of the problem.”

Now, Joe speaks about politicians in the Western world. “Is our democratic style of government ideally positioned to tackle environmental issues that are likely to cause unpopular changes and probably not count towards any re-election votes? An established London Mayor is believed to have lost his job because he wanted to impose a significant car tax to discourage drivers and it is likely that other career politicians may become reluctant to do the right thing for fear of loosing their popularity and job. If confident politicians do decide their countries are going to ‘clean-up’ their annual mega-tonnage of pollution, they could buy cleaner power stations to replace their older coal-fired plants but it would happen at a time when less developed countries are in race to power their countries with cheaper, higher polluting technologies. And then there is the cost of actions that do not provide a material return on investment, all of these negative factors mean that governments can become reluctant to significantly invest in a cleaner planet.”

Then Joe mentions that some numbers picked from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) website. “Estimates from the IPCC who represent government climate change experts from around the world estimate that carbon dioxide pollution will have doubled from pre-industrial levels to 550 parts per million by around 2040 which is when 6 billion capitalist consumers will ask if more should have been done while the atmosphere was cleaner. When planetary air becomes as dirty as Japanese car congestion or Chinese smog clouds people are going to have to start wearing masks and adjusting to a shorter life expectancy.”

But who is Joe and is he credible? Here is own answer. “I am a engineer that is engaged in developing a mark one wave powered device that generates electricity in quite a cost-efficient manner, on my drawing board is a mark four variant that does away with electrical output and instead uses its energy to create a freezing action in seawater. Although there is mountain of research and development work to undertake it should be theoretically possible to deploy a quantity of equipment that will seek to re-create lost polar ice. Using environmental machines means that there is a danger of dependency especially if governments fail to limit the causes of pollution. The problem is that if sea ice is artificially created and the causes of climate change continue then if the machines were to cease working the ice would melt at an accelerated speed which could be quite hazardous.”

Of course, millions of articles about climate change have been published. Here is a short selection of must-read recent papers.

Sources: An exchange between a reader and myself, September 24, 2008; and various websites

You’ll find related stories by following the links below.

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Disclosure

Roland Piquepaille

http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?page_id=566

Biography

Roland Piquepaille

Roland Piquepaille passed away in early January 2009. He lived in Paris, France, and spent most of his career in software, mainly for high performance computing and visualization companies, working for example for Cray Research and Silicon Graphics. He left the corporate world in 2001 after 33 years immersed into it. In 2002, he started a blog about technology trends and how they will affect our lives.

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RE: Should engineers fix climate change?
meimeili 23rd Sep
Wah! Yamada cried. T_T Thanks a lot for this! happy replica watches best
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Democracy and the Long View
Yagotta B. Kidding 25th Sep 2008
They are, of course, famously incompatible.

That said, there is an argument in favor of self-interested First World countries moving as rapidly as possible towards a lower carbon footprint. On the one hand, they're the ones with the most to lose from rising sea levels simply because they have so much invested in coastal areas.

Another point, though, is a simple competitive move for our grandchildren. There will never be more fossil fuel in the world than there is now, and the demand is rising. Moving away from fossil-carbon based economies as other countries move to them is going to be a significant competitive advantage in approximately the same timeframe required for power plant construction (which is on the order of twenty years regardless of plant type.)

In fact, since many renewable power types tend to be smaller and more distributed, they can be deployed with less lead time than major fossil or nuclear plants can, which both improves their ROI and increases their flexibility in changing conditions.

All of this is part of the reason why I consider anthropogenic global warming to be a somewhat moot point. At best it's useful for persuading people to adopt otherwise sound policies, but sound policy choices point in the same direction regardless of AGW.
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Wah! Yamada cried. T_T Thanks a lot for this! happy replica watches best
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There was a recent talk given at UCSD that said efforts to slow global warming would be useless. He suggested a sudden decrease in the human population. War would be too slow, so some kind of economic upheaval would be necessary.

He was talking about "carbon credits"
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STUPID = Believing in global warming.
Artic sea has a volcano
Ice melts ice grows back,
YOU! shove this crap down our throats as if it is a FACT an dit is NOT, but to you it is real.
PLEASE do the world a favor (and this is to all the STUPID out ther) stop beathing - your carbon footprint is to large, STOP EXISTING, so we may go on with our live and NOT BE RULED BY STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
That is the only reason for the debate isple control
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...politics. It's that simple. Come up here to Wisconsin this January if you believe in "global warming." You will change your mind quickly! The last two winters have both been the coldest on record in about 20 years in this region. I'm sorry, but the data are *not* showing G.W. to be true. Furthermore, the American Society of Physicists recently revoked its earlier position of support for Global Warming. (They are not currently denying it, but are retracting official position on its verity...essentially, saying the jury is out.)

Given other data, such as melting of ice caps on Mars at the same rate as our own...a new discovery. Yeah...there are no inhabitants producing greenhouse emissions on Mars. It's highly more likely that solar flares cause normal cyclical temperature fluctuations, than that there is man-caused "global warming."

Sorry Greenpeace. Sorry Harry Fuller. Sorry Roland.
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Plants convert CO2 into O2
fr0thy2 26th Sep 2008
So why can't we just repopulate the planet with forests and greenery, instead of covering everywhere with concrete?

Inside a forest is 10 degrees cooler than the surrounding areas in high summer.
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Also
rparker009 26th Sep 2008
Look at the person started the GW stuff. Al Gore. He either is one of the owners or is on the board of every company that finds the so called proof of GW. And funny how now they call is climit change since we are starting to cool off. and that as the northen ices packs are melting.. the southern ones are growing.
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very true
dmennie 26th Sep 2008
Yes, there is global warming. There is also global cooling, droughts, heat waves, dust storms, and other unpredictable atmospheric events that regularly remind us of how inconsquential our contributions to the Earth's weather really are.

Advocates and believers in climate change (attributed to man) are now hot to "correct" a problem that (a) they cannot comprehend and (b) they cannot influence no matter what politically-correct posturing is involved, and (c) is most likely due to factors not yet well documented or accounted for. We must get over the idea that a few decades of satellite photos plus two hundred years of spotty temperature data means much of anything on a planet that is BILLIONS of years old.
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Joe's "mark 4 variant" sounds really bogus
hummingfrog 25th Sep 2008
If Joe is claiming that his mark 4 machine will use wave power to produce ice and counteract global warming, then he is talking nonsense.

This is physically impossible, for exactly the same reason it is impossible to have an air conditioner in the middle of your living room with no vent to the outside (i.e, it violates the second law of thermodynamics). There is no such thing as a machine that use power to produce coldness; there are only machines that use power to move heat from one place to another, producing local cooling, but also generating waste heat (check out the back of your refrigerator some time). Joe's machine could certainly produce ice, but it would also have to produce waste heat -- more than sufficient to melt that ice! -- which would have to be dumped somewhere. Unless he could radiate the waste heat out into space somehow (which doesn't seem likely), the net effect would be null. I think you are talking to a crank!
violates no principles of thermodynamics. Just like you can generate energy from wind, you can generate energy from waves.

Now, that is not to say that his device is practical, but, it is possible and violates no laws of thermodynamics.
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Clean miss, Donnie
Yagotta B. Kidding 25th Sep 2008
Now, that is not to say that his device is practical, but, it is possible and violates no laws of thermodynamics.

DB, the issue isn't the First Law (energy) but the Second (entropy). All the energy in the world won't lower the temperature of a closed system, which was the point of the original comment.

If a device creates ice from sea water, it will either create hot water or hot air to go along with it and in fact, once the ice melts the combination will always be hotter than it was to begin with.
cover, you ABSORB 90% of the energy in the sun. So, if we melt the solar ice caps, this is somewhat irreversible since the energy of the sun is absorbed instead of being reflected back out into outerspace. But, in any case, the rising average temperature of the earth will mean that putting the ice back is NOT the ultimate solution - only a temporary help.
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Entropy is not heat
cd2_z 26th Sep 2008
If the energy were put to use to feed an endothermic chemical reaction (like the cold packs [urea + water] that EMTs keep in the ambulances), then you could theoretically cool things without having to dump excess heat anywhere. The problem then becomes one of logistics: either pumping the heat energy to a convenient place to run your reaction or finding a chemical reaction to use near/at the energy pump (in the sea) on such a large scale which would not cause other environmental problems.
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Lets just add a nickel to the gas tax and give it to whoever comes up with a machine that can take co2 out of the air, split off the carbon atoms and return the oxygen to the air for less than a nickel a gallon for all the carbon a gallon of gas causes to be released.

With 100,000,000 people driving 10k miles per year at 20 mpg, that's 50 billion gallons per year. .05 per gallon gives you 2.5 billion per year building up until we get this thing invented.

Or just keep things simple and allocate a billion to whoever comes up with it first. Either way, problem solved within a decade and without pouring **** in the ocean.
Its called a Tree and other GREEN plants. Like what was in the rainforest that have been cut down for drugs and for raining corn for alt fuels
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I could do it right now.
Dr_Zinj 26th Sep 2008
Give me the funds to purchase or rent a supertanker for a year (and operate it)
I need enough iron oxide (rust), to fill the entire hold with it in finely powedered form.
Construct a sprayer and a feeder for it to spread it a far as possible on the surface behind the ship.
Head for international waters in the south equatorial pacific.
Commence operations.

Several things will happen.
1. There will be a massive phytoplanton bloom that will consume massive amounts of carbon.
2. There will be a massive bloom in animals that feed on phytoplanton in the area - may be enough to make a decent fishery.
3. As the phytoplanton die off, they will carry their collected carbon to the bottom of the ocean.
why is it a bad thing that ice is melting in Greenland? There is more ice on Greenland now than at the end of the last interglacial period. Looking at the graphic, it's easily seen that not only is there more land covered by ice, but the ice that is there is significantly thicker than it was last time around. So even if the ice melts to what it was at the end of the last interglacial, what's the problem? Sure there's going to be some increase in sea level, but is hurrying up the next Ice Age the right answer?

And for those who say we aren't at the end of an interglacial period, you need to go back and look at historical trends. On average, the glacial cycle repeats at roughly 100k years with 90k (+/-3k) of those years being glacial and the remaining ~10k being interglacial. The current interglacial period has lasted roughly 12k years, so we're slightly overdue for our return to glaciation but within normal variation.
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YOu lost credibility with me with
rpwillia0@... 26th Sep 2008
?Greenland and Antarctica (the two largest bodies of ice in the world) are visibly contracting in size as climate change causes them to melt and sea levels to rise. ...corporations have accepted that climate change is caused by mankind ... Many governments ... have finally accepted that climate change exists ...?

I understand the Antartic ice sheet is actually growing. Corporations are going green because it sells. Governments are knuckling in to political pressure.

I am definitely not convinced about any argument that is shouted at me and does not invite reasoned discussion. When I see that it is always that they know the argument is false. I totally agree with conservation and alternative energy sources as "money saved + cheap energy = money in my pocket." If Al Gore could figure that out he would be truly fabulously wealthy instead of just being able to siphon off a few million from the fringe. GW is a UN plot to take our money.
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RE: Should engineers fix climate change?
jjbiener@... 26th Sep 2008
I am curious. Has anyone here seen evidence to support man-made global warming (climate change) that doesn't depend on computer models?

I am familiar with computer models and the math that underlies them, and I know they are highly subjective. All we are ever told is the results of the models and never the assumptions that go into creating them. Without that we have no way of knowing their accuracy or validity. We are expected to accept the word of scientists who have a financial and professional stake in the outcome. I don't find this particularly convincing.

Our understanding of the environment is cursory at best. Computers models for hurricanes cannot predict with any accuracy more than 24-36 hours in advance. A hurricane is far simpler to model than the environment as a whole.

Given that, we are supposed to accept that the models used by enviromentalists are accurate enough to predict weather conditions 50-100 years in the future. Weather is a chaotic system affected by millions of factors both internal and external to our planet.

Should engineers fix climate change? The questions should be, "Shout engineers TRY to fix climate change?" My answer is, "Not until they demonstrate a better understanding of it than they have now." My fear is that any attempt we make to meddle in the environment on a global scale will have disastrous unanticipated side effects.

There is a strong temptation, especially among the political classes, to "do something" in the face of any potential problem. More often than not, this has led to problems worse than the problems that were supposed to be solved.

I support continued study of the environment, but NO, DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT! That is a nightmare we could all do without.
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Perhaps we are not to blame...
mmfiore@... 26th Sep 2008
The most obvious reason for Global Warming is that the sun itself is increasing its output. Please see this article on Space.com.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sun_output_030320.html

It has never been proven that man has been the major contributor to global warming.
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Re: Perhaps...
jjbiener@... 26th Sep 2008
If we account for the effect the sun has on global temps and consider humans only produce 4-6% of all greenhouse gases, I think we get a good picture of how small our impact on the planet really is.

The article you linked shows a graph which demonstrates the strong correlation between the sun's output and global temps. There is no such correlation between CO2 output and temps.

The obvious conclusion is the Climate Change is a political issue, not a scientific one.
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RE: Should engineers fix climate change?
shadfurman 26th Sep 2008
"Most corporations have accepted that climate change is caused by mankind", what reference is cited for that? none... just because corporations produce products in accordance with popular "green" trends does not mean they (the corporations) have accepted mankind can in anyways significantly effect our climate. It simply means that a company is taking advantage of a trend in a capitalist economy to make money. (duh!)

Not only that, but in a country where politicians (and politicians pretending to be scientists *cough*algore*cough*) can't "control" things like the economy and job markets, we're wanting to control the ENVIRONMENT?! Please people! Just take a look at the complicated interactions in the RIDICULOUS number of variables that have to be accounted for! You can't just add ice to the ocean and fix global warming, aside from the fact that while some evidence indicates so in THEORY, there is NOTHING that directly likes the changes accuring in our environment to ANYTHING we've done.

Yes, we should care about our environment. Yes, we should recycle reduce and reuse. Yes, we should research better alternatives to energy production than patrolium (even if its just because we've been using it for over a hundred years and it's dirty old technology its time we try and put in the past) Let's be thrify, and caring and pick up trash, and find better ways to get rid of our trash and lets quit MAKING so much trash, and lets walk to work or store sometimes, lets do all of these wonderful things.


BUT QUIT WITH THE FAKE G.D. SCARE TACTICS! THE EPA IS A 40 YEAR OLD GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION STARTED BY A CORRUPT REPUBLICAN (WHO WAS MORE SOCIALIST THAN MOST MODERN DEMOCRATS) THAT EMPLOYS MORE PEOPLE THAN MICROSOFT ONLY HALF OF WHICH ARE SCIENTISTS. IT DOESN'T FUNCTION ANYMORE!
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Why is everyone sooo negative on climate change? I like tha current climate. Let NATURE take its course and thare wont be anymore problems! Altho it would be fun controlling the climate. (but i think the government already does that? ) and has anyone ever thot about the hole in tha n-zone? sure its mainly New Zealands fault, but hey, we juss ignored that and it went away.. I say just enjoy the warmer weather, quicker suntans and semi-submerged islands while you can!
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First, invest in a spell checker
riredale 27th Sep 2008
I am an engineer and agree with the general premise that the earth is gradually warming. That said, I do NOT subscribe to the argument that this is caused by human habitation. These days, however, the issue has become politicized and is very much a religion to some. And, of course, you can't argue logic about religion.

I think there is little value to developing an ice-making machine powered by wave energy, though I'm sure it would be welcomed by thousands of TransPac sailors. Can't make a good margarita at sea without ice.

Finally, I don't hold myself up to be some sort of model grammarian, but please, people, if you have something to say then make sure the words are spelled correctly. I think most folks will give less credibility to comments full of errors.
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RE: Should engineers fix climate change?
hoffmann367@... 28th Sep 2008
If engineers and "experts" had of shot Al Gore instead of giving him a Nobel Prize they would have done a lot more for the environment seeing as he alone uses more energy and water than a small township.

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