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Christopher Dawson

No way can Windows Phone compete with Android (or iOS, for that matter)

By | September 20, 2010, 12:18am PDT

Summary: Can Windows Phone really take on Apple and Google? Maybe RIM or HP, but not iOS or Android.

Windows phone will, no doubt, have cool integration with exchange, sharepoint, and office web apps. I’ve seen the demos. Really, it’s great stuff. but it’s too little, too late. Our friends over at ZDNet Asia suggest that “Microsoft [is] ‘more than capable’ of competing with iPhone, Androids”. I beg to differ.

The article quoted an analyst who was skeptical but really missed the point:

“All of the ingredients are present but Windows Phone 7’s success depends on whether Microsoft can bring these together in a stable, high performance package,” the analyst said.

Nonsense — It all depends on whether anyone gives a crap if their phone runs Windows and is super happy playing nice with a Microsoft ecosystem. Not many people know or care that iPhones run a stripped down version of the Mac OS and very few realze that they are running Linux when they buy android. It’s the phone, features, apps, and network all coming together that grabs users.

Now that iPhone and Android are finding serious success in the enterprise, largely forced by worker demand, Windows Phone may barely reach relevance. Windows might remain the dominant OS on the desktop in the enterprise and office 2010 may continue to rock out loud. Sharepoint might even give a great platform for collaboration. But if RIM has taught us anything with their struggles, it’s that the phone is now far more integral to everything we do, rather than just being a communication or messaging platform. It’s an anytime, anywhere extension of our digital lives, all of which happens on the Net, negating the need for one more corporate phone

Will XBox integration make it important? Maybe, but that’s generally a pretty limited demographic. iPhone reaches a vastly broader demographic than XBox Live. Android (though to a lesser extent than iOS) transcends demographics because of great features in the OS and awesome phones from the OEMs that have gotten behind Android.

Windows Phone will neither have the tight, seamless experience ensured by Apple’s similarly tight, seamless ecosystem, nor will it have the customizability and flexibility of Android. Sure, it will have the Windows brand behind it, but that doesn’t mean what it used to. People are far more wedded to their phones than their PCs, leaving Windows Phone out in the cold.

Perhaps more importantly, while Windows Phone could make some real inroads in the enterprise, where Sharepoint integration already looks quite compelling, especially for highly mobile workers, Redmond is trying to be everything to everyone. Xbox Live integration is not a selling point in the enterprise and serious gamers would rather be on a console rather than trying to rank up achievements on their phones. Besides, the games for iOS and Android are very good. Where does that leave Windows phone? A highly capable mobile OS with entrenched, passionate users of other equally (if not more) capable phones.

Go ahead, ask an iPhone user if they’d give up their iPhone for a Windows Phone. I dare you. Android users won’t be willing to give up their mobile OS or hardware either, although a surprisingly large number would jump ship to an iPhone if it didn’t live on AT&T’s network.

Seriously, Microsoft…if you want to do consumer, let’s have a new XBox (not just a thinner one with wannabe Wii accessories). If you want do do enterprise, keep cranking out the great desktop and server software (with Office 2010, Windows 7, Sharepoint 2010, Server 2008, and Exchange 2010, I can say that with a completely straight face). Mobile belongs to Apple and Google.

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Topics

Chris Dawson is a freelance writer and consultant with years of experience in educational technology and web-based systems. In 2011, he became the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., a virtual classroom and learning network SaaS provider.

Disclosure

Christopher Dawson

Christopher Dawson is the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., by day and a freelance writer and educational technology consultant by night. Well, most of his colleagues at WizIQ are based in India, so really he's working with them whenever he can stay awake. He has worked for his local school district as a teacher and technology director, for the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, and for Biogen, Inc. (now Biogen-IDEC, Inc.). He has also consulted with STATNet and Cytyc Corporation and retains close ties with X2 Development Corporation (now owned by Follett Software, the supplier of the student information system he administered for several years). Follett is paying him a monthly honorarium to act as a presenter for their "SIS Voices for Student Achievement" community (he produces occasional blog posts and hosts a monthly webinar on the use of student information systems to inform data-driven instruction and school-wide change. He regularly purchases and/or recommends Dell hardware. This is because Dell makes good hardware and has truly committed itself to education in innovative ways, particularly with their "Connected Classroom" initiative. It isn't because he has dealings with the company through his role at WizIQ (which he does) or because they have provided him with long-term loans of a variety of equipment for in-depth testing (which they have). Intel (reference designer for the Classmate PCs he has implemented in his local schools) has provided him with long-term loans of Classmate PCs for testing, as have Dell and Lenovo with their educational offerings. He may report on any of these companies as his experiences with them have direct bearing on educational technology; positive reports are not necessarily an endorsement and he receives no direct financial compensation from these companies or any others. Intel paid all expenses for his attendance at the 2009 Intel Classmate PC Ecosystem Summit which he attended as the sole representative of the technology press. He was invited to attend in 2010 but his wife would have killed him if he spent 3 days in Vegas geeking out and left her home alone with a new baby. Acer provided him with a 50% discount on an Aspire One netbook in early 2009 after he tested it for 30 days through their educational seed program. He liked the netbook at the time but it has since broken and sits unused in his office. Canonical sent him Ubuntu lanyards, t-shirts, and mousepads for his kids. He stole one of the lanyards and proudly hangs his keys from it and occasionally features his 8-year old wearing an oversized Ubuntu t-shirt on his Facebook profile. Gunnar Optiks sent him a pair of computer glasses to evaluate for a holiday gift guide. He is wearing them now as he types this because they never asked for them back and they rock out loud. Seriously - they work brilliantly and make it much easier to spend 20 hours a day staring at an LCD. If they ever asked for them back, he would fork over the $99 and buy a pair. Microsoft gave him 2 free copies of Office 2010 professional, a desktop clock, and a useless book on Office 2010 when he attended the launch of Office/Sharepoint 2010. He occasionally uses the SharePoint lanyard they gave him instead of the Ubuntu lanyard for his keys, but feels dirty afterwards. Adobe provided him with a pre-release version of the CS5 Master Collection for evaluation and ultimately provided a full, licensed copy for ongoing testing of educational applications of this admittedly expensive software. Like the Gunnars, if the license expires or they come out with CS6, he'd actually go out and buy it himself. Which is saying something, because he's actually pretty cheap. Any other companies wishing to send him cool things to evaluate, wear, or otherwise adorn his kids are more than welcome to; he promises to disclose it here if he keeps any of the stuff. Finally, because WizIQ is a virtual classroom and learning network provider, Chris, as VP of Marketing, frequently interacts with, seeks out deals with, and directly or indirectly competes with a whole lot of LMS, SIS, and other Education 2.0 companies. In general, he'll limit his reporting about these companies to news that does not impact his relationship with them or with WizIQ. If he reports on them, it's because what they are doing is newsworthy or worth the attention of his readers and not because he's trying to broker some deal, damage competition, or otherwise advance his position in his day job. LMS and SIS companies, along with other online learning communities, are a pretty important part of Ed Tech. If he stops reporting on them completely, there won't be a whole lot left. He'll be sure to call out any overt conflicts of interest if they are unavoidable. Finally, Follett Software Company pays him a little tiny honorarium every month to present on their SIS Voices webinars and to write the occasional blog or discussion thread for them. Since Follett recently bought X2 (maker of an awesome web-based SIS that Chris just happened to have used, served in advisory groups for, and frequently reported on), this is probably also worth disclosing.

Biography

Christopher Dawson

Christopher Dawson grew up in Seattle, back in the days of pre-antitrust Microsoft, coffeeshops owned by something other than Starbucks, and really loud, inarticulate music. He escaped to the right coast in the early 90's and received a degree in Information Systems from Johns Hopkins University. While there, he began a career in health and educational information systems, with a focus on clinical trials and related statistical programming and database modeling. This focus led him to several positions at Johns Hopkins, a couple-year stint in private industry, teaching high school math and technology, and 2 years as the technology director for his local school district. Most recently, he started his own consulting business and is now the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., a virtual classroom and learning network provider. He lives with his wife, five kids (yes, 5), 2 dogs, and a hateful cat in a small town in north-central Massachusetts. Although he is no longer teaching, his roles with WizIQ and ZDNet allow him to continue helping students and teachers add value to education with technology rather than merely adding to the bottom line.
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RE: No way can Windows Phone compete with Android (or iOS, for that matter)
jfreedle2@... 26th Sep 2010
If my only choices for a phone would be an iPhone or an Android based phone, then I would choose neither. I would rather get a basic phone that will provide my need for phone calls rather than downgrade to either of those poor substitutes for a smartphone.
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Microsoft needs the world to stand still
gjafg Updated - 20th Sep 2010
If the world stood still for 4 years, to let Microsoft catch up, then Windows Phone 7 would have a chance. Microsoft would have time to fix its missing features (lack of copy-&-paste is just the tip of the iceberg).

But that won't happen. Microsoft is stuck entering a market with a phone riddled with missing features, against two entrenched and highly successful competitors... Android and iPhone.

It is almost 4 years since iPhone was released. Microsoft is 4 years and 4 generations behind. Why did it take Microsoft so long to respond?

Windows Phone 7 is going to fail upon contact with the market. Nobody bought Zune. Nobody will buy a Zune phone.

The 'Windows' brand name is poison, associated with dinosaurs, the previous era, and a graveyard of mobile failures (RIP Plays4Sure, Zune, Zune HD, Sidekick, Windows Mobile, Kin).
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That grape is sour!!!
LBiege Updated - 20th Sep 2010
Yeah of course, what else would you guys say anyway?

"iPhone and Android are finding serious success in the enterprise,"

So serious they have NOT even been able to integrate with your office documents that WP7 is capable of from day 1. Talking about generation 4 vs generation 1.

And missing features? You mean the fragmentation hell of Android or death grip of iPhone? No thanks, keep them to your own.

The mass denial is getting to hysteria level.
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Windows Phone 7 reminds me of the Black Knight from the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

The over confident Black Knight challenges King Arthur, who cuts off each of the knight's four limbs, one by one. The limbless Knight continues to challenge Arthur to a fight.

Windows Phone 7 lost its first limb when Microsoft said there will be no backwards compatibility to older Windows Mobile phones, because Microsoft said it didn't have time to implement it.

WP7's second limb was lost when Microsoft announced it will not be "feature complete", missing basic features like copy-&-paste, app multitasking, and wireless tethering.

WP7's third limb was severed when Steve Ballmer decided he could not risk Microsoft's tablet strategy to Windows Phone 7, and decided to use the full desktop Windows 7 on its tablets instead. Windows Phone 7 was shunned in tablets.

WP7's fourth limb was severed when Microsoft said Windows Phone 7 would not run on Verizon or Sprint, or any other CMDA network.

So the hapless, limbless Windows Phone 7 is now squirming and writhing on the ground, still challenging the others to a fight.
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And having used a windows seven phone I can state you are living in dreamland.

Let me be clear, I HATE MS. and its products, why? Cause its sneaky it bullies other companies around, it destroyed: Lotus, Word Perfect, Borland, Netscape, and may others, it destroyed innovation. If it had done so by innovating itself, it wouldn't matter, but it did so by making it difficult to use the competition products, and that's dirty and with out class. So when I can, I go out of my way to avoid MS. products period.

Them there is the issue of bloat, most users that know equate MS to bloat.

But to dismiss win 7 mobile on my feelings would be foolish. It has the following going for it:

- it's slick
- it's fast
- it has animations and transitions all over the place and fast! (Silverlight)
- it hast full support for exchange out of the gate
- it has full support for communicator and livemeeting out of the gate
- it has full sharepoint support
- it has hundreds of millions of developers that don't need training.

Three only Ugly thing it has, are the tiles.

How stable it maybe, or how well multitasking will work under load remains to be seen, and wul it work like a phone and not behave like an iphone 4g?

Take my words, MS. has a product that will eat away at Apple's IOs4 products easily, and will hinder Android's meteoric rise and make it drop like a rock, and I am an Android fan.

Apple has too much to contend with, it most likely disappear like it once did in the past. Google has to develop a lot to survive, easier developing products, something that computers with Silverlight and no Flash is a paid product not free which is Android's main advantage, and a gamit if products that will support current corporate products.

It's a the horse race now, with one ruining out of steam.
@Market Analyst
What a load of crap you pu there:
1. Multitasking - it is there and it just does what iPhone 4 does for you - http://mobilitydigest.com/wp7-multitasking-it-depends-who-you-ask/
2. c&p - smartsense is there and Microsoft promised that the next update will have full c&p and it will be released within first quarter.
3. CDMA phones will be there during first quarter of 2011 for sure. Whole world except few carriers go with GSM, not CDMA. If you look their prime carriers here in US and Europe are GSM, so why would they risk by addressing limited set of Carriers (no matter of how big they are) by losing overall GSM.

Why would some of the apps that I bought for Mac OSX will not run on my iphone, what is the reason. A lot of us know iOS is just striped down version of OSX. Why my Linux Apps developed for LinMo will not run on Android (they both are Linux based)? WinMo and Windows Phone 7 are totally different except the underlying Windows CE, so you will not see the apps developed for WinMo will not run on Windows Phone. Correct your view and think about progression.

Who knows Microsoft may release a slate with Windows Phone7. They neither denied it or accepted it. Everything is hearsay or unofficial or some clueless carrier' CSR talk or bigoted media pundits. What a jerk you are!
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I say nothing, I just bought...
Solid Water 20th Sep 2010
@LBiege
a family plan with 5 Evo's...

After all my family played with Android phones in Verizon and then in Sprint stores.

Verizon is great but Sprint 5 smartphones plan is $100/month cheaper. If Sprint does not work good then I will go to Verizon for the family plan and get a couple of Droid Xs and a Galaxy-S

No offence here - everybody is using the phone that s/he like. happy
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Generations
kwabinalars 20th Sep 2010
@LBiege - WP7 is NOT a first generation platform. It's a 7th. Windows phones have been around for years. Lot's of people I know have them and like the system a lot. But the name explains it simply so why would you say 1st generation?
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Well, LBiege
John Zern 20th Sep 2010
If anyone would have first hand knowledge of "happless" that would be Market Analyst.

As it was stated here, he seems really frieghtened of WindowsPhone 7 for some reason.

He's probally at home thowing chairs around screaming "Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft!"
happy
@LBiege you talk about 'fragmentation hell', but doesn't Windows Phone follow the same model, of multiple devices and one OS? In any case, this 'hell' you speak of allows me to buy one app, and run it on my phone and my Android tablet. Seems pretty nice to me.

Being reasonable rather than having a knee jerk reaction to the article and comments: WP7 really looks compelling. But apps are where it's at, and Android has just reached a point where it is a viable alternative to iOS - most of the official apps are there now and iOS games are all being ported. WP7 sure has a lot of catching up to do - just looking pretty and having Office and Exchange integration out of the box is not enough (FWIW, iOS and Android both have this, of sorts, already).
I would love to hear why Windows phone 7 will fail. But all the article seems to mention are reasons that will be given by a teenager at best. I believe the only reason it can fail is if it doesn't move fast enough, but to be honest it seems the best in terms of features and user interface...and I don't see that changing by the time WP7 launches.
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It will fail ....
BrentRBrian 20th Sep 2010
@nishsingh

McAfee Mobile, Ad-Aware Mobile, SpyBot Mobile ... I doubt the CPU could handle a PHONE CALL with all that crap running.
@BrentRBrian

Funny you should say that considering the numerous malware targeting the iPhone...
@Cylon Centurion 0005 Funny you should say that considering the numerous malware targeting the iPhone...

You mean the TWO... well actually ONE form of malware? Let's see there was the rickroll thing then the ikee worm which was a modified version of the rickroll code - which ONLY affected jailbroken iphones that has SSH enabled AND still had the default password. Oh yes, the PDF exploit that the jailbreakme.com website used to jailbreak iPhones - which Apple AND the Dev Team both fixed for non jailbroken and jailbroken iPhones respectively. So those are you "numerous" malware targeting the iPhone? Really? Come back when you have something relevant.
@BrentRBrian
Like the trojans that exist in Android market. Also it is easy to take away iPhone and has been proven. Good luck.
@Rama.NET Where are these trojans in the Android Market? The wallpaper app thing from a couple months ago? Is this what you speak of. It's just a case of reading a headline and not seeing the page 26 retraction. These apps were poorly coded but later proven not to be spyware/malware ... but while places like zdnet, cnet and other sites blasted us with the original headline the retraction was lost in the shuffle.

No malware/spyware here .... *ding* try again.
@nishsingh
All the article said is that WP7 is "too little, too late" which is total bullshi*.
@athynz

There are quite a few pieces of malware out for the phone. One was just announced today:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/fake-iphone-jail-breaking-tool-packed-with-malware/7381

A simple Google search reveals a few more hits :

LINK

It's out there. It can happen, so my point is still perfectly valid.
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"One was just announced today"
jasonp@... 21st Sep 2010
Actually, what was announced today was "a rumored jail-breaking utility for iPhone 4". Nothing concrete, no actual exploit, no trojen...just a rumor. Wow.
@Market Analyst :

haha...

You are following WP7 from day one and never leave a chance to criticize it.

Is this insecuirty or are you sick? Either way it is not good for you.
@Market Analyst,

"The 'Windows' brand name is poison, associated with dinosaurs, the previous era, and a graveyard of mobile failures (RIP Plays4Sure, Zune, Zune HD, Sidekick, Windows Mobile, Kin). "

I'll agree with you that Windows Mobile has been a failure. However, they have had alot of success with other products (Windows 7,Office, Exchange, SQL Server, Sharepoint). I think saying that the brand name is poison is a bit overreaching.
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Not to Market Analyst
John Zern 20th Sep 2010
He's paid to say that, nothing more.
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@bmonsterman
I associate oil and museums with dinosaurs.
Oh, and Flintstones.
@JZ

no one is paid to post anything here but the bloggers. It's silly to think a company would pay to troll bait. I don't think he's paid to say it anymore than the crazy S LD says in pro-MS statements.

That said, what everyone is forgetting is they are using 7's brand success to help with the mobile market. Is Windows Mobile largely associated with slow, inconsistent phones? Sure is. However Windows 7 is associated with a fast, clean OS with an awesome new interface. At least that's how most people see it, especially after any time with it. Therefore it's entirely reasonable to think that Windows Phone 7 will continue that success. It has an interface that is absolutely nothing like its competition. Google clearly has ripped several UI features straight off iOS. Microsoft it building a brand new interface. Will it work? That's is yet to be seen.

All that said I just bought a Droid 2 so I'll be following WP7 but won't make a decision on purchase until at least July 2012.
@Market Analyst While I do agree that WP7 won't do as well as everyone seems to think - or do well at all IMHO - this part of your post seems to be a stretch:

The 'Windows' brand name is poison, associated with dinosaurs, the previous era, and a graveyard of mobile failures (RIP Plays4Sure, Zune, Zune HD, Sidekick, Windows Mobile, Kin).

That's not entirely accurate as Microsoft has had great success with Windows 7, Office 2010, and Exchange to name a few. They are great in the Desktop/ laptop area but not so much in the mobile/ smartphone area.
@athynz Yeah, some of these so-called tech guys get a little whacko. I had WinMo phone for that last 7 years. I loved what they could do but didn't like how they did it. I now have an EVO 4G and it is by far the best phone/device I have ever had. But I won't just categorically write MS off. I believe WinPhone 7 will be huge. The integration of so many useful tools with a great media player and gaming experience will make it largely successful. We shall soon see how this all plays out.

Tp
@athynz The products that you cite as a success are well established brands, with a very deep market penetration. The failures that Market Analyst cites are all 'new' products in 'new' product areas for Micros~1. Yes there have been enterprise successes (Sharepoint springs to mind) and the XBox franchise has done well in the console market, the console market is a niche thought. By and large new products from Micros~1 haven't faired particularly well in the market place and with recent performances (cf the Kin) I cannot see Windows phone being a runaway success either. Sure, the fanboi's that feature regularly here may by one and tell how much better it is than iPhone or Android, but that;s fanboyism for you!
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Win 7 will be enterprise-class phones
trickytom3 20th Sep 2010
@Market Analyst

Face it, iPhones and Android phones simply aren't able to connect to Microsoft software the way a Win7 phone will be able to. That puts them at a severe disadvantage.

The business-world runs on Microsoft, not Apple.
completely rule in the enterprise. Because they integrate so well with Office.
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to follow their plans. That's how PCs got into the work place, user brought them in, not IT. I'm not going to carry two phones, Win7 is to late to matter.
@trickytom3
@trickytom3 : Right!! And in a capitalist-world when you own the business-world you own all the world ...

So, it is reasonnable to predict a real success to Windows 7 phones...
@trickytom3
Face it, Microsoft will ensure that iPhones and Android phones simply aren't able to connect to Microsoft software the way a Win7 phone will be able to. That puts them at a severe disadvantage.

FTFY. Is a new round of anti-trust litigation necessary? MS is now out from under the judicial oversight, I believe.
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Nice set of blinders you have there!
cornpie 20th Sep 2010
@Market Analyst The mobile phone market (despite your handle you don't seem to know much about that) is a very different place than the PC/Laptop market. Most people have little to no brand/os/carrier loyalty and are much more willing to switch any of those three things than they would be with their desktop or laptop. This willingness to switch quickly is what has really been hurting Microsoft over the last two years. They were too slow and got passed by. People switched to something else; be it iPhone, Android, or whatever.

But how quickly everyone forgets that Android didn't really take off in the market until the release of the original Motorola Droid only 10 months ago. Sure there were android phones before that, but the Droid is the obvious dividing line between geek toy and mass market. People (including me) dumped Windows Mobile for Android as soon as our carrier contracts came up for renewal. Microsoft missed my business then because at that particular time Windows Mobile had fallen way behind. Looking at iPhone, it also exploded onto the market in a very short time. This idea of iPhone and Android being "entrenched" is ridiculous.

By May of 2012 when my contract expires again, it will be a different world. Once again I will be looking at what seems to me to be the best option at that time. Who was first to market will be completely irrelevant in my decision making process.

As to features like cut and paste, buyer's have shown themselves to not care about things like that. Sure, some do care. but how long did we hear the iPhone detractors complaining about the same thing - while iPhone sales sky rocketed.
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Microsoft's MO is to slap together some piece of crap (hardware or software) and expect people to buy it because they made it. Think of the original Zune, xBox, Kin, Win CE, Win Mobile, Bob (a favorite), Vista, Windows Media Player, IE, the list goes on and on.
@cornpie
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How would you know that, GoPower?
John Zern 20th Sep 2010
Some of the Android phones I've seen look to be slapped together POS's themselves

Zune, xBox, Win CE, Win Mobile, Vista, Windows Media Player, IE, are fine. If you want to claim otherwise, it's your fantasy, don't let us stop you. wink
@Market Analyst

I bought a Zune.

I still have and love my first-gen Zune. Hope it lasts forever.

And the Zune marketplace is brilliant!

I think this phone will do to the mobile world what the xBox did to the video game world. The xBox was very late to the video game world, but is now outselling Sony Playstations and helped kill Sega.
And the Zune marketplace is brilliant!

Gee, if it's so 'brilliant', how come it's not sold in Europe?

Hmm?

Not to mention...

http://www.zunethoughts.com/news/show/23506/no-joining-the-social-for-you-non-american-zune-lovers.html

So much for "brilliance"

lol...
@Market Analyst
Zune is a better player than iPod. Even cnet agreed in a review. All Microsoft needs to topple Apple in the phone department is to be available on a carrier other than AT&T.
@Market Analyst

Oh please make sure you both store these idiotic rants and reflect upon them in a year.

There's so many people waiting for a modern phone that MS doesn't have to worry. It also has the killer app that is the sleeper of this century - OneNote.

But keep touching those crappy looking icons guys, your phones are already so last century
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@Market Analyst
We all know that you are a troll. This "too little too late" arguement is total Bullshi*.
I think its funny that the author insinuates that XBox Live integration is not important but just last year they were talking up how games from Apple's AppStore made it that much more unique and Android could not compete.

Its akin to saying....Oh the iPhone is great for nothing but apps but then turning around and saying the iPhone is great for everything but apps. Well Android has proved a damd good competitor and I feel confident that WP7 will too!
While the majority of bloggers seem to be inclined to favorably view WP7's chances of success, a few have offered dissenting opinions - near all of them with suprisingly angry overtones - as if they are afraid that MS is going to come to their home and steal their Star Trek action figures. That attitude is unfortunate, since competition fosters improvement which benefits everyone. It is also patently ridiculous in the face of MS's successes in entering the market later than others. Since Dawson himself mentioned the XBox (and seems angry(?!) about it...) it should be pointed out that MS came late to the gaming party....as they did to the desktop OS party, as they did to the spreadsheet party, as they did to the browser party...and they are leading in each area. IOW, don't be so quick to write off MS in the mobile market. The market for smartphones is growing rapidly, and there's room for more than two players. It's tiresome to read bloggers (Mostly Apple fanbois) who seem to have an i-axe to grind. I wish Apple, Google, MS, Symbian, and even WebOS success in the mobile market. The more the merrier!
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how do you define success?
sportmac 20th Sep 2010
@garysvb@... throwing obscene amounts of money into something to keep it out there? losing vast fortunes to "compete"? you point out that ms comes late...

ballmer: we may not be the first or the best but we just keep coming and coming and coming...

translation: we'll pump money into it until you die.

ms is spending half a billion dollars in advertising to launch wp7. their internet services have lost tons of money (hundreds of million every single year) for over a decade (msn, hotmail, search... bing lost 700 million dollars in one quarter alone). xbox lost over TEN BILLION DOLLARS before it's first modest profitable quarter.
zune? money losing hole.

is success having the ability to introduce a product or service and then never ever have to worry about that pesky profit or loss thing?

it's their money and they can do what they want with it (at least as long as the cash cows come home) but it sure as hail ain't fair competition and it sure as hail ain't free market at work.

wp7 will be here forever simply because it will either sell or ms will throw an incredible amount of money at it to keep it alive.

had the justice department broken this company up there would be no xbox, no msn, no zune, no bing and probably no wp7. no way any of them could have survived without the cash cow twins.

success? competition? nuts.
@sportmac
Yeah, Microsoft is definitely just out to lose money. That's what shareholders love!
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What would you have them do?
DontBeEvil 20th Sep 2010
@sportmac
Shut down their online business and phone business and OS business and distribute all their money to the shareholders. Ofcourse, thats a great plan, the shareholders (unfortunately I am one of them) will be very happy but the problem is that I will expect that same amount of obscene dividend next and the following year, etc.

If MS have already shutdown their businesses how are they going to sustain giving me the money?

My point being, rather than doing the above, stay in the business and there is a chance that they will make money in the long run.
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the point is
sportmac 20th Sep 2010
@ DontBeEvil Yugo could have been a success had it billions and billions and billions of dollars to lose.
As I said, if they want to lose that money, it's theirs to lose. My point is don't call it a success and don't call it competition. If and when it makes up the billions and billions and billions (I sound like Carl Sagan) then it will be a success.
Whatever it is, it's certainly not business as usual. No other company can buy their way into a market like Mircosoft. They lost the search war, they're just willing to spend (here I go again) billions more on it (according to Ballmer up to 10 billion). That is not the market talking and it's not fair competition. It's money, it's the Yankees and Red Sox buying pennants but on steroids (oh the irony!).
BTW, you know what 10 billion will get you? How about your very own International Space Station? Like I said, it's obscene.
@sportmac - you raise some good points. Irrelevant, in this context, but meaningful if you want to talk about something other than market share, like tuna salad or carpet tape. Bottom line is that dominate the market in many areas and, yes, this pisses many people off. Cries of "No innovation!" are well intentioned, but reflect a poor understanding of the very valid "late mover advantage" that many companies follow. It's a market driven economy (Congress' efforts notwithstanding) and people vote with their money. Perhaps one day, MS will be subject to a divesture a la Ma Bell, and you can feel better about how "unfair" it is that they've been so successful (by almost any measurable standards, btw). I'm guessing you carry an iPhone, and enjoy criticizing MS's marketing strategies...when it becomes illegal for companies to spend their legally earned money to market their legal products, please let us know...and tell Steve Jobs too, plz.
@ garysvb oh dear. you do so seem to (intentionally?) miss the point, no? people vote with their money? why then, msn, hotmail, zune, ms search, xbox all lost. it's not the people's money that allows them to exist today. it's the money from the cash cows. this is not rocket science. they have lost countless billions of dollars. there is no discussion, no dispute, they have lost countless of billions of dollars. and they exist today because of the cash cows.
did i say it was illegal? do read my post again, ok pumpkin?
it is not the fair market talking and it is not fair competition. a normal business introduces new models or services and if they don't move they disappear. this is true with bicycles and cars and damn near anything else out there in the business world. not with microsoft.
they are buying their way into the market. no if's no and's no but's. don't call it success because it's not. you can't lose that kind of money and call it successful.
now you can play with words all you want but that won't change anything.
what i use doesn't matter. i believe in fair competition and the free market. ms does not.
@sportmac
Funny how all the statistics you listed above are entirely madeup. This make your credibility dropped down to zero.
@sportmac

Again, you seem terribly upset that MS can put "billions and billions" into products/merchandising, etc. If you are able to convince most of the world to stop using MS products, they'll wither and die. Until then, it's their prerogative to spend their $ as they see fit. If the shareholders are dissatisfied, then they can sell their shares and/or get the board to get a new CEO. While you are trying to get MS to stop spending their money, get the phone numbers of the CEOs for the entire listing of Fortune 500 companies and whine to them as well. Until then, let the market do what it does best. Their are more choices for consumers out there than ever before. BTW, I'm assuming you don't use MS Excel or shop at Walmart either. Forget about Starbucks.
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my dear boy
sportmac 21st Sep 2010
@ garysvb why do you want to put words in my mouth? it simply won't do.
i'll try to make this simple. ms is buying their way into the market. do they have that right? why yes, yes they do.
you keep saying i don't believe they do when i've never said any such thing.
what i'm saying are 3 simple things.
1. anything that loses billions of dollars cannot be considered a "success" by any measure. not until the day they turn the corner and recoup that money and head into the black.
2. this is not the free market at work. microsoft may gain market share but only because of the cash cow twins. it's simple, without the cash cow twins xbox would not exist, zune would not exist, ms search would not exist. do you disagree? the market spoke and ms lost. no matter though because they have that money and used it to keep them afloat. this is fact. what do you disagree with about this?
3. this is not fair competition. no, it's not wrong for them to pump billions into money losing adventures if that's what they want to do. but it's not playing on the same level as any other known business. name one other company that could do this. one will do nicely. do not call it competition. it's not. it's buying their way into markets. do they have that right? why yes, as i've said all along. but that doesn't change the facts.
now, does that help or would you like to try to put words in my mouth again? if you reply, dear boy, stick to the 3 points i've repeatedly made.
If my only choices for a phone would be an iPhone or an Android based phone, then I would choose neither. I would rather get a basic phone that will provide my need for phone calls rather than downgrade to either of those poor substitutes for a smartphone.

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