$1.9m verdict is unconstitutional, Thomas-Rasset says

By | July 6, 2009, 9:33pm PDT

Summary: While an appeal is likely in the cards, the motion Jammie Thomas-Rasset’s lawyers filed today was a request for new trial (PDF) or for the judge to alter the jury’s “shocking” $1.9 million award. Thomas-Rasset’s lawyers argued that (1) the jury’s verdict of $80,000 per infringed work is unconstitutional because it violates Due Process; (2) [...]

While an appeal is likely in the cards, the motion Jammie Thomas-Rasset’s lawyers filed today was a request for new trial (PDF) or for the judge to alter the jury’s “shocking” $1.9 million award.

Thomas-Rasset’s lawyers argued that (1) the jury’s verdict of $80,000 per infringed work is unconstitutional because it violates Due Process; (2) that it is so unconscionable that the court may unilaterally knock the award down to a more reasonable number; (3) set aside this verdict and empanel yet another jury for trial #3.

The lawyers also said they planned to appeal on the issue of the admitted MediaSentry evidence and the lack of a certified copyright certificate.

Due Process

Regardless of the theory, the main issue is the size of the award. The Copyright Law provides for a broad range of statutory damages per infringed work. One question is whether a “work” is a song (iTunes download) or an album. Either way you cut it, the ratio of statutory damages to value of the infringed work is mind-boggling.

For 24 songs, available for $1.29 on iTunes, the jury assessed statutory damages of $80,000 per song — a ratio of 1:62,015. For 24 albums, available for no more than $15 at the store, the jury assessed statutory
damages of $80,000 per album — a ratio of 1:5,333.

“Grossly excessive” punitive awards are disallowed by the due process clause, the Supreme Court has ruled. The test for a due process violation is:

(1) the degree of reprehensibility of
the defendant’s misconduct; (2) the disparity between the actual or potential harm
suffered by the plaintiff and the punitive damages award; and (3) the difference between
the punitive damages awarded by the jury and the civil penalties authorized or imposed in
comparable cases.

While the Court refused to recognize absolute numbers, it strongly suggested that anything over three or four or at the most 9 times the actual damages would fail the test. It would appear the Thomas-Rasset awards easily qualify.

Thomas-Rasset’s lawyers largely skirt around the fact that the Court in Gore was dealing with jury awards. Here, the jury was applying a statutory scheme, which might require a finding that the law Congress passed is unconstitutional. But because the law provided for such extreme penalites, one could argue that there’s little difference between Congress’s numbers and ones a jury pulls out of a hat.

Remittitur

The defendant also asked the court to simply knock down the award to something reasonable under the federal common law remedy of remmittitur.

Remittitur is appropriate where the result on a verdict “is monstrous or shocking.” Here, where the punishment ratios are 1:62,015 measured in songs and 1:5,333 measured in albums, the verdict is both monstrous and shocking. Mrs. Thomas was a single mother who, at worst, downloaded and shared some music on KaZaA, music for which she had already lawfully purchased the CD’s, without any hint at all of a commercial motive. Her wrongdoing is a far cry from that which normally results in a $1.92 million verdict.

Evidence appeals
The defendant is also asking for a new trial on the basis that the court erred in admitting the MediaSentry evidence because it was illegally obtained.

Neither MediaSentry nor Plaintiffs have disclosed the location of MediaSentry’s activities in February 2005. Media reports in 2005 indicate that MediaSentry most likely conducted its activities from either New Jersey or Maryland. Both New Jersey and Maryland have private investigator and wiretap statutes that MediaSentry would have violated if it conducted its activities from these states.

The judge previously expressed outrage over the size of the original $222,000 verdit in Trial #1, so he may well welcome the opportunity to throw this one out, as well. Whether he would order a whole new trial is anybody’s guess. And at this point, the RIAA probably would welcome seeing this one swept under the rug.

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Richard Koman

http://government.zdnet.com/?page_id=3731

Biography

Richard Koman

Richard Koman is an attorney admitted to practice in California. As a technology writer since the mid-1980s, Richard Koman has documented the role of computing in the transformation of the graphic arts, the growth of the Web and the birth of the peer-to-peer phenomenon. He worked as a book and web editor for O'Reilly Media throughout the 1990s, editing several influential websites and numerous best-sellers. As a lawyer, as well as a tech writer, he brings a unique perspective to the blog's intersection of law, government and technology.
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Only Soultion is Political
Altotus 11th Jul 2009
You all must know this or else its time for a primer lesson in political science not civics for those who don't know the difference.
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Jammie Thomas-Rasset should just pay the fine because I have heard
that the RIAA is very close to gaining control of the U.S. Justice Dept.,
and they plan to raise the penalty for infringement of even one song to
the Gas Chamber.
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You may have point.
deowll 7th Jul 2009
Both the Obama administration and Congress for sale seem to be working for the RIAA and Crappy Wood.

This is exactly no change for at least the last 10 years.
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This idiot could have settled for around $5,000,
everytime she goes to court the price ends up going up.

I'd love to see her thrown in jail for perjury, too. This
isn't a freaking game, she's wasting the court's time and
taxpayer money with her and her lawyer's inane efforts in
court.
Then she'll learn that settling for an around $5,000 extortion fee is much wiser than trying to use the courts to defend against determined abusers.
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Or she should be shot!
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
If she would have just given the private, non-governmental organization the $5,000 they asked for based on absolutely nothing that would pass as evidence in a civil trial, then the RIAA wouldn't have had to spend all that money buying congressman. Why was she so selfish? Don't record executives deserve solid gold houses and rocket cars, too?

And yet people expect them to actually *prove* that the alleged violator is guilty, like it was some sort of trial in an American courtroom or something? That's not the new American way!
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They did prove it - TWICE.
Fark 7th Jul 2009
2 seperate juries found her guilty.

They have records from KaZaa linked to her IP.
They have ISP records showing the activity to her modem.
They have her account at KaZaa using her Std USER NAME for other web sites.

Oh, and when she got a letter saying she was screwed, her computer suddenly had an issue and the HDD had to wiped out.

Juries aren't stupid, they can follow the dots. She is guilty of the charge. Now the fine might be high - but that's the juries perogative.

Madoff got 150 year...
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Well, no
rkoman@... 7th Jul 2009
*Now the fine might be high - but that's the juries perogative.

*Madoff got 150 year...

Actually, the constitution does limit a jury's perogative. A jury can't fine someone whatever it wants; there needs to be some relationship to actual damages. Where the fine is thousands of times more than actual damages, it's likely unconstitutional.

Interesting you mention Madoff, who actually stole money, caused actual devastating losses to people and organizations, did so knowingly and with the intent to rip people off, and did all this in the billions of dollars. This you compare to someone who shares (probably unknowingly) 24 songs? Which sharing hasn't actually caused ANY damage whatsoever?
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Well, yes...
Fark Updated - 7th Jul 2009
The law sets out a guideline for damages. The Jury stayed within the guideline. The jury has the perogative to decide damages within the guideline set out by law. If you don't like, call Congress and ask them to rewrite it. If you think the legal system can be too harsh on some and too lack on others - great - join the party with the rest of us!

You keep harping on 24 sings - it was a lot more than 24 - 1700+ I think. And it stopped at 1700 because the caught her it could have kept going up. The RIAA only took the easiest 24 to prove to a jury.

As to the comparison to Madoff - his crime was much worse which is why he will die alone in jail surrounded by the worst scum on earth. Her cime was much less damaging which is why this is not a crimal trial - only civil. She'll not lose her life to jail. She'll not face murders and rapists on a constant basis - no 23 hours of solitary in super max. So yes - they are different crimes and they're punishments are completely different.

"Which sharing hasn't actually caused ANY damage whatsoever?" Really? If I steal from your company and your paycheck everyweek, you're not damaged? Or do you think those greedy record lables and artists shouldn't be protected from theft because they can afford it?

Wiped out financially is NOTHING compared to knowing you're dying in prison. She can settle the award for much less. She can file for bankrupcy. She can rebuild. Madoff is a dead man walking. In my opinion, justice prevails in the end.
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You may be wrong dude.
deowll 7th Jul 2009
This is a felony. If you don't understand what that means try putting it on your next resume.

However you want to look at it the punishment is Draconian for what she did.

That ought to get the law struck down on the face of it.

I might have given her five thousand tops.
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No, not really
rkoman@... 7th Jul 2009
*Which sharing hasn't actually caused ANY
damage whatsoever?" Really? If I steal from
your company and your paycheck everyweek,
you're not damaged? Or do you think those
greedy record lables and artists shouldn't be
protected from theft because they can afford
it?

A. She did not steal from the record company.
She shared some songs. There is no proof that
anyone but MediaSentry downloaded the songs, so
no proof that anyone actually got a song that
they would otherwise have paid for.

B. Even if someone did download songs, that
doesn't mean that they would have bought the
songs. For one thing, they're widely available
from many peers. For another thing, most people
download free music because it's free not
because they must have it and will buy it if
it's not free.

C. The argument that someone is losing money is
an argument about the aggregate. That in the
aggregate massive filesharing is hurting the
record companies. But it's wrong to punish one
person for the sins of the many. She was tried
for sharing 24 songs. The question of the
damage that caused must be limited to *her*
actions.

D. The law prescribes a penalty because
sometimes actual damages are inadequate. That's
the case here, you will agree. The issue is
what is a fair (meaning within due process
according to the Supreme Court) penalty. The
answer is 3-4 times, or perhaps 10 times.

E. Therefore putting the law together with the
Constitution and the fact that she is not a
counterfeiter, the proper penalty is the
minimum the law provides.
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Jammie Thomas
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
Actually, my whole argument would be easier if the first defendant hadn't been so stupid and careless.

But the point remains that the entire system is grossly weighted against the defendants. The facts are that the RIAA is NOT the government and should NOT have governmental authority, they do NOT have any government oversight over their activities, they are accusing people of copyright violations and extorting thousands of dollars from them using questionable tactics and shaky reasoning, they are claiming damages that are just ludicrously overstated, they are claiming damages when no evidence of a violation even exists, they have on multiple occasions accused innocent people of breaking the law, they have paid off both parties to the extent that even perfectly fair and reasonable use of media is being made illegal, they have paid off congress to the point where copyright will from now on be extended indefinitely (unless you think Disney won't get another Mickey Mouse extension in 20 years.), they've paid off congress so that it's becoming illegal to manufacture or sell hardware that doesn't enforce their draconian restrictions. Blind people want their books to be read out load? Fsck 'em!) They've paid off congress so that they can use the DMCA to prevent people from modifying their own hardware and devices as they see fit. They've used congress to enforce region-encoding in a patently obvious attempt to prevent people from watching whatever they can afford to purchase where they'd like to watch it. They've managed to get laes passed to allow the government to seize and search my computer equipment at the border just in case I might have something they haven't authorized installed. (Including not just copyrighted materials, but software that they feel might be used to aid copyright violations.) They've restricted trade and scientific advancement by making it illegal to use any of their materials without paying an exorbitant licensing fee and by making it illegal to study their software to learn more about it. They've attempted to deny people access to the internet for alleged copyright violations. They made use of spurious DMCA claims to prevent any and all use of what they feel is their intellectual property, fair use or not. (Hell, they don't even care if it actually IS their intellectual property.)

I could go on. To say you should just obey the law because it's the law is -- frankly -- stupid. The law is being written by a handful of major corporations to protect their obsolete business model from the inevitable march of technology. Bridle and harness makers would have loved to make laws that made it illegal to have a horseless carriage. Western Union would have loved to pass a law that made voice communications illegal. Fortunately, 100 years ago this country was run my saner men.
The facts are that the RIAA is NOT the government and should NOT have governmental authority

...a criminal case.

they are accusing people of copyright violations and extorting thousands of dollars from them using questionable tactics and shaky reasoning,

I disagree. I see anything questionable or shaky about what they are doing. What specifically is questionable or shaky about what they're doing?
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Simple
john.lemme@... Updated - 7th Jul 2009
Assuming that a dynamic IP address attached to a wireless router implies that the owner of the router was guilty of infringement is simply factually inaccurate.

Let's assume my car is stolen from my driveway at night, used in a drive-by shooting, and then replaced before I wake up. I'm certainly going to be questioned by the police, but the fact that it was my car can't be used as proof that I'm a murderer. There would have to be some sort of other evidence linking me to the actual shooting. If I have no history of gang activity, no gunpowder residue on my person, and no relationship with the victim I have a good chance of clearing my name.

Now in reality, if this ever happened the car owner is certainly going to be a prime suspect, and there's even a chance that the innocent car theft victim could be convicted of murder. But the government has to follow the law while investigating my case and gathering evidence. They have to prove my guilt to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. As a criminal matter they have to provide me with a free lawyer if I need one. They have to follow special rules if I'm a minor. They need to prove *I* was the shooter and not merely that the bullet came from my car. They even have to prove that the bullet actually DID come from my car, and my car didn't just happen to be driving by when the shooting took place. And finally, the prosecutor can choose not to press charges if, for instance, I was 85 years old and mostly blind and therefore very, very unlikely to be guilty.

They have rules to protect *us* from *them*.

Now contrast this with the RIAA lawsuits. They presume that the user of the IP address is guilty, period. They ask for thousands of dollars without proving anybody's guilt. The victims are not entitled to a (free) lawyer because it's a contract violation, not a criminal lawsuit. If the accused party is an 85-year old partially blind man who's neighbors have been using his router because he didn't know how to secure it, then he has basically no legal recourse. It would be exactly as if you were guilty for any crimes committed with your stolen car, even if you didn't know the car was stolen.

I'm not claiming that most of the RIAA's lawsuits were against innocent parties, but the government can't just accuse random people of breaking the law and then force the accused to pay thousands of dollars to prove they DIDN'T commit any crimes. It's no different than the government sending tickets to the owner of a car that runs a red light, regardless of who was driving it, and then sending 50% of the proceeds to private corporations who profit from the laws that make this travesty of justice possible.

Oh, snap.
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Not once but twice. Not only that the jurrors they conviced not only found that she had infringed but that she willfully infringed. And the fact that both gave such substantial awards indicates there was no doubt in their minds she had infringed. Otherwise they would have awarded the minimum of $750/infringement.

As to you car theft example the burden of proof for a murder is considerably higher than that of a petty crime. Even if both are held to the same "beyond a reasonable doubt" criteria.

If I were a juror on a murder case you can damn well bet I would want some very convincing evidence that the accused commited a crime. After all the punishment is much more severe. Contrast this to someone accused of possessing marijuana. I don't need nearly the certainty to convict as I would in a murder case. Even though both are criminal and require "beyond a reasonable doubt" to be met.

Let's assume your scenario where someone steals your car. Except instead of killing someone they take it for a joy ride and drop a bag of weed. You are pulled over for speeding and the officer sees it laying in the back seat. You're charged with possession and, being innocent, you take it to court. It's likely you're going to be convicted of possession even though no one can conclusively prove you ever knew about it.
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Theft is Theft....
Fark Updated - 7th Jul 2009
If you can't see that stealing is wrong and should be punished, then we can't have a rational arguement because we disagree on a fundamental level.

It doesn't matter what technology does evolve into or doesn't evolve into. Someone made a product they wish to sell for profit. No matter what technology exists, you cannot deny them thier right to livelyhood. You don't have the right, via technology, to stripe another of their rights.

Sorry - technology cannot replace morality. Stealing is wrong and should be punished. Convince the artists to give their art away for free, pay for it, or don't listen.
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Punished by whom?
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
1. It's not stealing, it's a copyright violation. If I build a house that looks exactly like yours you won't become homeless.

2. Punished by whom? The copyright owners? If I catch you stealing the radio from my car (REAL stealing!), do I have the legal right to punish you for it? Can I can beat you to death? Stick a gun in your ribs and make you give me $10,000? Chop off your hand? Do I have to right to mete out punishment just because you stole from ME?

3. Who decides that you're guilty? If I catch you the day after the theft with a radio that looks like mine can I presume you're guilty and proceed to beat, rob, or de-hand you? What if you happened to have the same radio? What if you found my radio on the ground and didn't know it was mine? Should you have no protection from my wrath?

4. What if I was very rich and paid millions of dollars in campaign contributions to pass a law saying that if I so much as thought you stole my radio I could hunt you down and take as much of your money as I wanted. Would it suddenly be OK because it's now legal?

It's not an issue of whether it's OK to break contract law. It's an issue of whether only one party gets to decide whether you broke the contract and whether that same party can arbitrarily decide to punish you as they see fit. If the RIAA's targets were ACTUALLY stealing something the RIAA would need to ACTUALLY prove they were guilty and the punishment would be for the act itself, not for some crazy made-up "damages".
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Right to Livelihood
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
Are you really claiming that advances in technology can't strip a person of their livelihood? If you look out your windows you'll see a long line of telephone operators, icemen, steam engineers, and buggy whip makers who'd like to disagree.
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u hope they make it 4 mill
jackfred 8th Jul 2009
you say that this lady is waisting the time of the court, well I think that the riaa and the mpaa is the ones that is waisting the time of the the courts.
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In many countries
s_souche 7th Jul 2009
constitution prevent damages to have a punitive
nature. Punition is left to the fine, and
damages can only repair damages caused by the
defendant.

In the US, damages have historically been the
mean to exert punishment. This case will
perhaps begin a change in mind in your
coountry, as people realise that, would she
have stolen physical CDs from a store, she
would have paid a few hundred $ at most.
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She should not be granted a third trial.
ye Updated - 7th Jul 2009
I can understand the request to reduce the liability award but to request a third trial is completely unreasonable. She's liable...period. Her lawyers are grasping at straws with everything except the unreasonable damages claim. She had many opportunities to put this behind her for $5K yet she rejected the settlement offers. Now it appears she's still unwilling to settle (the RIAA has stated that, despite the $1.9 million they've been awarded in damages, they're willing to settle). She has no one to blame but herself.
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The settlement matter
rkoman@... 7th Jul 2009
Listen everyone: The $5000 settlement was an extortion attempt. What does this sound like: 'She had many opportunities to put this behind her for $5K yet she rejected the settlement offers.' The sound of a victims legs being broken as the Mafioso explains, 'we told you what would happen if you didn't play ball!'

A settlement offer is not admissible. It is an appealable question as to whether the MediaSentry evidence was admissible or whether the industry properly showed proof of copyright registration.

What the jury decided is not relevant if they decided it based on inadmissible evidence.
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Interesting image...
Fark 7th Jul 2009
but wrong.

More like - the RIAA had all the evidence and legally had her dead to rights (as shown by 2 easy conviction and massive awards on both trials).

So to make an example, and settle it quick, they offered a low number. If she had paid, the RIAA would have their victory, she would be hurt for her theft, and civilization could continue. She thought, or was given bad council, "You can beat the rap," and has so far failed twice.

She should have taken the deal.
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The $5K is quite reasonable.
ye Updated - 7th Jul 2009
It cost the RIAA money to track her down, she was sharing almost 2,000 songs (something that often is lost in discussion), plus it includes a "penalty" to deter her from repeating the infringement. What would you think is reasonable and why?
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I agree
BElias73 8th Jul 2009
I think the fact is that she took a gamble hoping to pay less than the
$5K that was offered. She lost that gamble twice and the jury in both
trials actually sided with an industry that, ironically, is pretty much
hated by just about everyone. That tells me that, at the very least, the
evidence of her willingly committing this crime was firmly established.
As for the person that was making analogies before in terms of how
these things don't hurt companies, I think the analogy was logically
flawed. You're not copying a design and using it for yourself when
you are competing in the same market as the company that is trying
to profit from it. That is the essence of the argument. She had a
viable, affordable option available to her and instead chose to not pay
for that music. It is far different than copying a house design and
using it for yourself. You're still going to pay someone to build it (or
build it using your own hands and materials that you buy). However,
if you're actually "stealing" the house from the builder for yourself,
you're effectively reducing the income the builder could be realizing.
Until there is a fundamental understanding of this concept when using
analogies, the argument for/against will be flawed. Ultimately, if
everyone did what she was doing, neither the companies nor the
artists would be in business or making any money.
If she were smart, she would have just settled or sent a counter-offer
for $2500 or something like that and been done with it. The
fundamental problem she has (and many people like her) is that she
thinks that these songs that she stole aren't worth the small amount
that the company was charging because it isn't "physically" tangible.
That is why people steal software all the time. It is no different. It
hurts businesses and those that make a living in that industry from
legitimately producing those items.
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Well, listen to all the sheeple regurgitating the officially sanctioned party line!

If the defendant already OWNED the albums in question, then the mere presence of those works on the hard drive is indicative of nothing.
the fact that they are in a "shared" directory only means that Limewire did what Limewire always does. Most non-IT types have no clue about sharing directories or setting file permissions.

This whole RIAA campaign is indicative of an industry in it's death-throes. This is akin to buggy-whip manufacturers of a hundred years ago lobbying congress to mandate the equipping of all automobiles with a buggy-whip.

The business model is about to change, and the RIAA and friends will lose out on their ill-gotten gain. I say, "Good riddance".
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No, she did not.
ye 7th Jul 2009
If the defendant already OWNED the albums in question, then the mere presence of those works on the hard drive is indicative of nothing.
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How do you know?
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
I have rips of CDs that I've since lost or that my kids have destroyed. It happens. Should we save the receipts of every CD, DVD, and video game we buy just to make sure the RIAA can keep track? Perhaps everything we buy should be registered in an RIAA-administered database to make sure their business model can continue to work for them? If you press play and your fingerprints don't match, then no Bon Jovi for you, thief!
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Songs you rip don't have...
ye 7th Jul 2009
..."Bleeding Edge Ripping Crew" and "Uploaded by 0ff$3+" in the meta data.
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Ooh.
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
That would do it...
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Nice to know...
InAction Man 7th Jul 2009
you still haven't forgot the tags you used only a couple of years ago.
  • Flagged
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BINGO!!!
Fark 7th Jul 2009
Nail on the head!
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Soon they will be resting next to DRM.

RIP
  • Flagged
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$1.9Million dollars for 24 songs... ya that's reasonable. Why not take her first born, her left eye and her right leg while you're at it? The jury is acting like she committed some huge fraud like Bernie Madoff or something. It's 24 songs. Make the woman buy them if she wants to keep them, pay a few hundred in fines and be on her way. Its sh*t like this that affirms to me that our justice system is broken. God help anyone who has to go to trial for anything. People are to busy to sit around debating the fate of another person for days on end. They'd rather just go with the flow, agree with the majority and call it a day. It sucks
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She had over a 1000 on her machine (I think 1700ish). The 24 where just the easiest to prove in court, so that's the subset the RIAA targeted.

I think the rury hammered her because she stole music and then attempted to conceal the evidence via a HDD wipe. A pissed off Jury is a very bad thing for the guilty party. They obvioulsy didn't think it was an accident, or it was her kids, or it was just a one time thing. They dropped the hammer because they thought she willfully stole and then tried to conceal it.
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And RIAA pissed off a lot of people...
InAction Man 7th Jul 2009
and a pissed off lot of people is a very bad thing for the abuser. RIAA will die, just like DRM did.
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makes people unhappy - no doubt.

The rule of law say you can't steal music. The RIAA seems to the only group trying to enforce the law. The Taxpayer doesn't want to have an electronic police force enforcing these laws - so the RIAA stepped in to fill that gap and protect the artists' revenues.

I'm sure if you're a drug dealer, the cops would piss you off too.
If you're a car thief, LOJACK pisses you off.

If you want the RIAA to go away - stop stealing music and they won't be needed. If that means the record companies lower the price to the point where isn't easier to buy then steal - so be it. If there is some other legal means that protects the creator of the property - great.

If you think that just because everyone wants to break the law that the sheriff should just go away.... Really?

Think about the ramifications of 24/7 mob rule.
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Taxpayer?
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
Surely by "taxpayer" you mean "citizen of the United States, ultimate source of power and governmental authority, and beneficent of all the protections of the US Constitution?"

Right? Because I always thought that the people MAKE the law, we don't just get it dictated to us by Sony, Disney, and Universal Music Group.
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We, the people, elect people to make laws. Those people, should, make laws that benefit society and keep the people safe. If our elected officials side with Sony, Disney, and Universal then WE THE PEOPLE have to obey said laws or face punishment because we elected these representives.

If a leader rose to power by force without an election, then you're arguement is fine. We elected people to represent us - and they have for better or worse.

I didn't vote for the folks running my state or my nation - but I am still subject to their laws or I WILL face penalties if I break them.
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Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
Nobody has suggested we should break bad laws. I'm saying we shouldn't enforce bad laws. A law that allows damage claims of nearly $2,000,000 for making copies of 24 songs for no financial gain is ludicrous and should simply not be enforced.

The whole concept of punitive damages for willful infringement is a gift to the big media companies. Do they lose more money if I give my friend a copy of a CD on purpose? If not then it shouldn't be a law or, barring that, we as citizens should not enforce it nor endorse its enforcement.

The jury in this case was a collection of tools for the damages they awarded; not for finding her guilty.
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You have one major problem.
deowll 7th Jul 2009
The RIAA is on record as having broken the law numerous times and most likely did so in this case by doing what they did in the wrong state.

Are they or their agents going to jail for breaking the law?

The next issue is that nobody with a brain thinks anyone who hadn't been bought would have ever voted for the current law that is assuming they even read what they were voting on.

Congress doesn't seem to feel the need to read the laws it is voting on much any more.

Both the new health care law and the energy law are going to make a lot of people very rich, cost the nation about 3,000,000 jobs above what is created depending on how many jobs or outsourced to avoid cap and trade and of course we can expect to pay about 1,500 to 3,000 dollars more a year for the energy we use and the products we buy.

But who cares? The people we all love and trust are going to take care of themselves.
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If you're a car thief, LOJACK p*sses you off.
Hallowed are the Ori 7th Jul 2009
Nah. Lojacks are simple to remove.
You mean, RIAA members no longer have the songs in their possession because they were stolen?
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I dunno
Hallowed are the Ori 7th Jul 2009
I dunno anything about the inner workings of IP law. I just know that Lojacks are dead simple to remove... without unlocking them.
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His point
Third of Five 7th Jul 2009
I think the point he was trying to make was
that there's no absolute security and the big-
time criminals are most likely going to find a
way to circumvent even the most draconian laws.

Look at product activation in Windows--it was
meant more to prevent people from, for example,
taking their Office XP disc from work and
installing the program on their home machines,
rather than stop full-scale piracy, which was
(arguably) much more potential revenue left
unrealized.
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Party Favors
john.lemme@... 7th Jul 2009
A true story. My daughter was invited to her friend's 6th birthday party last week. The party favor was a CD containing the birthday girl's favorite songs. I'm pretty sure the girl's parents didn't clear the rights to the songs before burning the CD, and they're all under copyright.

Based on the Jammie Thomas verdict the parents are now on the hook for about $800,000 in punitive damages. And since they burned the CDs themselves and put their daughter's picture on each one, it was as willful as willful gets.

So should I threaten to turn them in to the authorities and use that threat to extort $200,000 out of them? Should I turn them in myself and hope for a very, very large reward from the RIAA? Should I post their name and address on the web so that the artists themselves can go after them with baseball bats and broken guitar necks? Should I just wrap a copy of the US Copyright Laws around a brick and throw it through their front window?

What's worse is they were playing the CD on their deck through outdoor speakers, and I know the neighbors could hear it. Unlicensed public performances are illegal, too.

This is a very serious issue, because I now know that I'm living near unabashed criminals. I don't want them to corrupt my daughter or to start inviting their criminal (and probably stoner hippie) friends to our peaceful suburban neighborhood.

Please help.
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Different Situation
BElias73 8th Jul 2009
I'm sure that the parents here would be found liable for damages as
well if it is true that the songs were all copyrighted and that they, in
fact, didn't pay for each song/album that they distributed, that they
knew about the violation, and had the means/options readily available
to do so. If they were smart, they would have just done that or got the
DRM-free versions of the song or just simply printed a list of the
favorite songs (honestly, who the heck carries portable CD players
with them anymore?), or simply shared what their favorite "list" was
electronically for others to buy themselves.
But the situation is very different from the case above. First, it may be
difficult for the RIAA to prove that it was the parents that put together
the CD and not the 6-year old girl herself which, by default, would
mean that she would not be liable or at a minimum was not willful in
her actions since she can not have an understanding of the law or an
understanding of the ramifications for breaking it.
Second, unlicensed public performances are not illegal. What is illegal
is trying to profit from it by charging those around you for hearing it.
Since it sounds like that didn't occur, I doubt that there would be any
violation there.
Lastly, it doesn't sound like anybody is even sure whether the parents
paid for the music or not. If they did and it is simply a matter of them
making too many copies (even DRM-enforced music allows you to
make a reasonable number of CDs in a particular playlist -- iTunes I
believe allows for 5 CDs with the same playlist on DRM-protected
music), they may not be subject to any punitive damages whatsoever
as it might be determined that they simply didn't know that they
needed to pay for each copy, or, furthermore, that the actual technical
capability to do so was not available as an option (i.e. iTunes for
example doesn't allow you to buy the same song a dozen times
without warning, and even if it did, there isn't a way to determine
exactly who got what specific track).
With those circumstances, it is doubtful that the RIAA would even
pursue that type of case. But when you're talking about someone that
not only was an adult, but knew about the DRM, had other cheap and
viable options available to them, and still downloaded (and
subsequently tried to erase evidence of) over 1700 songs, that is a
more compelling case.
So, fear not, I think you're fine...
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Only Soultion is Political
Altotus 11th Jul 2009
You all must know this or else its time for a primer lesson in political science not civics for those who don't know the difference.

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