If cell phones existed back in the Founding Fathers' time, they would have been included in the Second Amendment

By | August 15, 2011, 5:00am PDT

Summary: Our personal communications technologies are as integral to our modern life as a sidearm was in Washington’s day.

If you think there’s a lot of juice in the Mac vs. Windows debates, the iOS vs. Android debates, the Linux vs. anything else debates, or even the Gmail vs. Hotmail debate (I stumbled onto that one inadvertently some time back), you’re right.

But the amount of energy expended in those arguments doesn’t hold a candle to the debates amongst Constitutional scholars over the interpretation of the Second Amendment.

Many scholars believe the intent of the Second Amendment is to provide citizens with the right to protect themselves against an unjust government, citing The Crown of the time as justification. An entirely different scholarly faction, recognizing that there wasn’t much of a standing American army back in colonial times, contends that the Second Amendment existed so that citizens would always have weapons when called on to protect the State.

Still others claim that the Second Amendment, although part of the Bill of Rights, didn’t grant a right to bear arms so much as it protected an already existing right to not be disarmed by the State.

This interpretation goes all the way back to the 1689 English Bill of Rights, passed after the Glorious Revolution tossed out the House of Stuart and brought in William from the Dutch House of Orange-Nassau. Before the Glorious Revolution, many English Protestants had been stripped of many of their rights, and many scholars argue that the British Bill of Rights merely returned those rights to the Protestant population.

Without a doubt, the British Bill of Rights influenced the drafting of the Second Amendment, as did the ongoing disagreements between the Federalists and the anti-Federalists.

Federalists like James Madison believed that the U.S. Government would be able to build a standing army, while anti-Federalists wanted some protection against the central government growing too large and influential. An armed populace would exist to both provide Federal defense and also a constant reminder that if the government got too uppity, at a worst-case, the citizenry would have the option of taking matters into their own hands.

Back then, Americans were of hardier and, presumably, more trustworthy stock. It was generally believed that the average American could safely be trusted to own and handle guns. Of course, back then, Americans couldn’t go to Piggly-Wiggly, Publix, ShopRite, or Safeway for their food. They had to grow it themselves or hunt it down and cook it up. Guns were essentially the shopping carts of the time.

This history lesson is relevant because, in the context of our current times, it’s important to realize that the Second Amendment was as much about not conferring to the State the right to disarm citizens as it was about conferring to citizens to the right bear arms.

Today’s world

This, then, brings us to today’s world, where we’re facing the question of whether a government entity has to right to disable citizens’ use of mobile phones or social networks.

Follow closely and you’ll see that there actually is a link between the question of whether or not the State has the right to disarm citizens of their weapons and whether or not the State has to right to disarm citizens of their communications technology.

I contend, in fact, that the link is so tight that the issues are actually one and the same.

Let’s first look at why some governments are concerned about personal communications technology like mobile phones, social networks, and the like. The potential for these technologies to disrupt the normal course of law and order is extreme.

Of course, not all government rule is just, and as we saw back in the days of our own founding fathers, there are times that human rights have been so violated by a sovereign regime that revolution becomes one of the only viable options for a populace.

We’ve seen technology used as a means of civil disruption quite a lot recently. We’ve seen Twitter messages come out of Iran a few years ago during the Iranian election. We’ve seen the social networking activity that resulted in the Mubarak regime in Egypt eventually shutting down the entire nation’s access to the Internet. We’ve also seen the actions of WikiLeaks, Anonymous, and LulzSec.

Just this month, we watched the flash-mob protests in the United Kingdom and — most recently — the protest last week in the Bay Area that convinced BART to shut down mobile service inside their right-of-way.

Not all of these protests were legal or even advisable. Riots are generally never legal activities and they rarely result in any good for the participants or their causes.

While the Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, it doesn’t necessarily provide a get-out-of-jail-free pass when an entire mob shows up armed and angry.

This is the subtlety that marks a democracy.

You can carry pitchforks and raise torches, as long as you do so peacefully. And you can carry weapons to defend our lands against intruders. But you’re expected to know when, as a citizen, your own use of force is appropriate and necessary — and when it’s illegal.

Back in the days of the American Revolution, the accoutrements of daily living were different than they are today. Few of us ride horses or hunt for our own food. Today, we carry mobile phones and use Facebook. We don’t brandish flintlocks, we text on our iPhones.

But just as a weapon was an integral part of an 18th century American’s necessary and appropriate garb, a mobile phone and social network access is an integral part of the 21st century citizen’s ready-to-wear.

Clearly, I’m not saying that AK47s and iPhones are the same things — but in times of unrest, they can both be used as tools of protest. In today’s world, disabling citizens’ access to mobile communications is just as much an act of “disarming” as was the taking of guns from the early American settlers.

We all know how difficult it is to amend the Constitution. That difficulty was part of the founders’ design spec. And so it’s highly unlikely that “the right to bear Facebook” will ever find its way into a Twenty-eighth Amendment.

That said, personal communications technology and the Internet are finding their way into protecting and empowering citizens. These technologies also being used to cause harm, to steal, and to disrupt the civil peace. They’re used by “good guys” and “bad guys” and those just in it for the LOLZ.

In many ways, our personal communications technologies are as integral to our modern life as a sidearm was in Washington and Jefferson’s day.

I have no doubt, therefore, that if personal communications technology existed back in the days of Adams and Franklin, such technologies would have been written into the Second Amendment.

Now that would have given Constitutional scholars even more to argue about!

See also:

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Dumbest thing I ever read
deepee912 18th Aug
You certainly have a right to carry a cell phone but the government is not obligated to provide or protect your cell service.
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I think you missed the mark.
Bruizer 15th Aug
Not even close on the target.

At the time, they had letters and other means of communications and we don't find:

"The right to write letters."

What we have is the right to peaceful assembly:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." 800 pages.

Your line of thought would have created another unreadable mess. The "framers" knew what they were doing and specifically left out the mindset you proposed.
that too many Americans today have: That the constitution grants rights. It does not. It restrains government. The Founding Father considered rights as inalienable. In other words, they exist independently of any government. The role of the Constitution is to grant the government certain limited powers and to make sure it is restrained in all the areas that men in power would seek to take it. Unfortunately, instead of loving liberty, too many Americans today love subsidy and so they have whored their rights for a handout. Nearly everything the Federal government does today is outside of its constitutional authority. I think the Founding Fathers would be much more horrified by Social Security, Medicare, and National Health Care than they would about whether or not Cell Phones were explicitly mentioned.
@baggins_z
Most hypocritical document ever written, peppered with words like "liberty" and "all men were created equal".

Yet, human beings were bought and sold like cattle and the authors of these documents, "the founding fathers" were themselves slave owners...
@baggins_z Right! Contrary to the non-lawyer author's theory, the Framers of the Constitution and those who got the Bill of Rights added to it did not regard them as granting or creating rights, but as guaranteeing enumerated and unenumerated unalienable rights with which, in the then-familiar language of the Declaration of Independence, individuals were "endowed by their Creator," and which pre-existed the Constitution under "the laws of nature and of nature's God." How could the federal government "grant" a fundamental and unalienable right against itself that it could not take back?" Thus, furthermore, the argument that the Tenth Amendment is "merely declaratory" overlooks the fact that so were the others, starting with the First Amendment. The Ninth Amendment explicitly carries forward and recognizes the existence of "unenumerated" fundamental, Constitutional, i.e. Constitutionally guaranteed--not granted--individual rights. You can find references to this generally accepted view by the Framers and Founders, including both the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists, in the Federalist Papers and other contemporary writings.

Liberal Harvard Law Professor of Constitutional Law wrote during the debate over the Second Amendment at the time of the Heller case that, having originally been of a different opinion, his research convinced him that the Framers intended and the Founders ratified an individual right to keep and bear arms guaranteed thereby.
The right to use a cell phone or a computer, or a car, is not within any stretch of Second, but fall rather clearly within the protection of the First, Ninth, and Tenth, Amendments.
Now just as freedom of speech does not include the freedom to falsely shout "fire!" in a crowded theater, it does reach a right to use, but not a guarantee that you be provided with, a cell phone for quintessential First Amendment political purposes, but no more, and arguably les, right to incite riot, or violate the privacy rights of BART customers over a fight not with them but with BART, than you have with your unaided voice or a snail mail letter, etc.
We don't need or want to rewrite the Constitution and Bill of Rights to cover every new technology. The Texas Constitution is awash in amendments and our courts usually say our state bill of rights does nothing but cover the same ground as the federal bill of rights, though the authors consciously used different and broader words. Wrong. It was intended to offer broader guarantees.

Now organizing a flash mob and riot, or some "rapper" effectively shutting down the police emergency line as a publicity stunt, were never intended to be, and are not, protected by the Constitution or its Bill of Rights.
2A gives the right to firearms to a well regulated militia to protect the free state. Activist judges have ruled differently.The founders did not forsee that 30,000 Americans would be killed by gun use yearly.
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@bobbryant
It only recognizes and guarantees them. If they're really rights, then we have them, no matter where we live, whether the law recognizes them or not.
@bobbryant

It *acknowledges* the right of the *people* to keep and bear arms. The citizens of the US are the militia. First phrase is for explanation, not a limitation.

Even liberal scholars admit that the language mean individual rights. That is why they prefer an amendment to invalidate the second.

The document (which Obama has complained about) is more a list of negative rights, meaning that it sets limits on what the government can and can't do. In this light, the government does not have the right to confiscate firearms nor the right to prevent the people from acquiring them.
@Bruizer

Not quite true. Communications as they existed were explicitly covered. This was pre-post office. Letter writers were fringe. The twitter of the time were the federalist columns in the newspaper and Patrick Henry's pamphlets.
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Exactly right!
adornoe@... 15th Aug
The framers did not need to think of different ways of communication before deciding on freedom of speech. There were different ways of expressing oneself centuries ago, and the framers were quite informed about all of them.

So, even if cell-phone technology was available back then, the all-encompassing wording for "freedom of expression" or "freedom of speech" would have been enough to cover even the latest or newest technology which one could use to transmit their speech or expression. Freedom of the press was included, and the press was a method for broadcasting that speech or expression.

So, the blogger might have a minor point in today's world, but, the way the constitution and our bill of rights were worded, the framers chose their words carefully. The constitution is still as relevant today as it was during the founding father's time.
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Freedom of Expression
John L. Ries Updated - 15th Aug
@adornoe@...
...isn't mentioned in the constitution. A right to it was imputed by 20th century judicial decisions, some of which I think are wrong (are you surprised?). I don't think a reasonable case can be made that the US founding fathers recognized anything of the sort.

And even if one does recognize freedom of expression as a right, it doesn't follow that one has the right to sell entertainment generally considered to be obscene (you can express yourself in private with a few well chosen friends, as some Victorians did).

Reply to the reply:

I'm shocked to see you claim that the Constitutionis the framework from which all other "rights" would be worked out (hardly a conservative position). See my response to Common+Sense (way down below) for my ideas about rights. Suffice it to say, rights are not derived from laws or constitutions, rather, just laws and constitutions guarantee the rights of the people (which is how I read the Declaration of Independence).

And it's usually liberals nowadays who think the courts have the authority to amend the constitution in line with their own ideas about justice.

Edit:

I probably overstated my position a bit. Really old fashioned conservatives like Sir Robert Filmer argued for the divine right of kings and unconditional submission to authority, but that certainly wasn't the position of the US founding fathers. If it had been, there wouldn't have been much justification for rebellion (a lawsuit against the Board of Trade for breach of contract would have been more appropriate).

And it is usually conservatives who argue that courts take too many liberties in how they interpret the Constitution (particularly the Bill of Rights and Article I).
rights.

That constitution set the stage for the further definitions, or amendments, which would become our rights. The constitution was merely the framework for the country, and from which all other "rights" would be worked out.

Although not in the constitution, it was an implied right, which would be codified during the constitutional conventions.
@Bruizer

Actually, there is a constitutional right to protection from unreasonable search and seizure. it is worded to include correspondence. So, it is actually covered in the Constitution. the problem today is that some Judges think that only applies to paper correspondence, and not to electronic correspondence. So, he's not as far off as he thinks.
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That would only apply to content
John L. Ries Updated - 15th Aug
@YetAnotherBob
Not the service itself. Mind you, I think there is a right to communicate electronically without interference from the authorities (restrictions only acceptable during emergencies or as punishment for a crime), but it's not explicitly codified in the US constitution, though it's probably implicit in the guarantee of free speech.
It is ironic that an article that discussed the second amendment is sponsored by a re-elect Obama ad.

Obama completely detests private firearms ownership by American citizens.
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And yet
mdemuth 15th Aug
@mjollnir
Firearm laws have been relaxed nation wide during the Obama administration. And his administration has yet to push any regulation of firearms.
Anything but your mindless bigotry to back that up?
@mdemuth

1) His snotty remarks on the campaign trail about clinging to guns and religion.
2) On record, as a state senator, that there was no right to self defense.
3) His appointment of two anti-gun Supreme court justices.

Bigotry? Epic fail. When the term bigotry is trotted out, you know the speaker/writer is just another commie who can't make a logical argument and falls back on the communist dialectic.
@mdemuth - But you have to admit that his actions have driven-up the cost of ammo to unprecedented levels...
Anyone who doesnt like Obama is a biggot, eh? Sounds like youre just as guilty of irresponsibly stereotyping as the people youre afraid of.

Love,
A Mulatto whos black came from slaves not slave traders
@mdemuth
Specify, please. Exactly which firearms laws have been "relaxed?"

Obama has yet to *successfully* push any substantial new infringements on the 2nd Amendment. In addition to mjollnir's noting of his SCOTUS appointments, we have his ongoing support for the UN Small Arms treaty which would trample the US Constitution. And the 800-pound gorilla in the room, the expanding cesspool of the so-called Operation Fast and Furious, which is coming into ever-sharper focus as a backdoor plot to justify eradicating Americans' rights under the pretext of the US being the cause of all the Mexican drug violence. As BATF top management, Eric Holder, and Obama himself scurry for cover like the proverbial cockroach when the lights come on, F&F begins to look more and more like it might become Obama's Watergate. May it be so, and may the outcome be the same.

And lest we overlook the actual content of the article, an interesting line of thought to say the least, Mr. Gewirtz.
@mdemuth

mmoran has an excellent point about the Small Arms treaty. We also need to be wary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. This also calls for the elimination of firearms ownership.
including the right to bear arms.

To Obama and progressives/liberals, the constitution is a wall which prevents their agenda from passing, therefore that wall is something that the democrats want to re-write or render ineffectual or label outdated,and therefore not applicable in today's world. They say so themselves, time and time again. Fortunately for the country, there are still people who believe in the constitution, and Obama and the democrats have been contained.
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@mjollnir
Are you aware that in the past the American Hunters and Shooters Association backed Obama because they see him as a strong supporter of the individuals right to bear arms?

Are you not at all aware that Obama on a number of occasions has said he believes the American Constitution doesn't only allow militias to bear arms but that private citizens are afforded those same rights by the constitution??

While he does believe in regulation a thinking person, especially gun owners will quickly realize that this is a good thing that will probably keep their firearms in their hands for many many more years to come.

Poorly regulated firearms ownership leads to numerous calamities. When numerous calamities are allowed to carry on for any time unabated, sooner or later, one of those calamities turns out to be a catastrophe and once there are a couple of catastrophes that come about, demands for draconian regulation, or even certain types of bans get called for and the trip down the long and winding road begins. Reasonable regulation does more to keep guns in the hands of the average citizen then to the wild west approach that inevitably leads to outright bans or severe restrictions.
@Cayble
Among the 2nd Amendment community at large, the American Hunters and Shooters Association is widely regarded as a "front" organization intended to bestow a mantle of 2A legitimacy on anti-2nd politicians like Obama. More plainly put, to pound smoke up the lower orifices of those who aren't paying attention.

Yes, I am quite aware of what Obama has *said* in the past. Including the way he disparaged, disrespected and dismissed millions of Americans with his elitist "bitterly clinging to guns and religion" crack. Actions still speak louder than words, although those particular words do indeed speak volumes.

"Reasonable regulation" is the flimsy smokescreen behind which incremental encroachment of the 2nd Amendment skulks. What's "reasonable?" Just one more gun law.

What part of "shall not be infringed" requires explanation?
@mmoran Damn, what regulation has infringed on the 2nd amendment? Even if he was a closet (what ever evil thing you seem to think he is) he wouldnt do anything on that front. First, he his a centrist closet republican, has no spine and will only gain a political sh*tstorm from doing so. Second, it would be unconstitutional and he was a constitutional law professor for ch**** sake. Third this whole bs conspiracy is stoked by ammo and gun manufacturers to keep the demand high.

Oh and poking fun at out less intellectually fortunate folks (ie: religious people) is always a good thing. A good christian should present the other cheek. But if your faith is shaky, that's not Obama's fault.
@Cayble

Imbibing the truth.
American Hunters and Shooters Association is *definitely* front group: http://content.eaglepub.com/?laKaZnjZ.btHI6oY-og1HCMFiHWsANMRl

When Obama says he supports the second amendment, he is a liar. His state senate voting record is proof. http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=16427

He appointed Sonia Sotomayor to the supreme court. She lied during her confirmation hearings when she said the firearm ownership was settled law according to Heller vs. DC. Then she turned around and voted against firearm ownership in McDonald v. Chicago.

He appointed Elena Kagan to the supreme court. Her writings were used in the crafting of the so-called Clinton Assault Weapon ban and has equated the NRA to the KKK. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Kaganassaultweapons.pdf

In a televised interview, famed writer Louis L'Amour explained how the "wild west" was a myth. The west was settled by Civil War vets, north and south. Nearly all were armed and competent. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/22/sunday/main4882500.shtml
To quote Robert A. Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society."
To quote John Lott: "More guns, less crime."

Nearly all the state and federal laws prohibiting firearm ownership are unconstitutional. There are already enough laws prohibiting improper use of firearms (or any other weapon.) Laws against assault, battery, murder, malicious wounding, negligent homicide, etc.
@DickCheney777

What regulation has infringed on the 2nd Amendment? Start with the nation's 40,000+ gun laws and work from there.

I don't regard Obama as "evil." I regard him as an ivory-tower elitist who sincerely believes that the average American is incapable of conducting his/her own life and affairs without the benevolent guidance (backed by the guns of government) of himself and his similarly-minded peers.

Closet centrist Republican? You and I have very different operative definitions of "Republican," evidently. Although given the minimal genuine differences between the left and right wings of the Republicratic Party, your description may have some validity at that.

And yes, he would. I've previously mentioned his support for the Constitution-overriding UN small arms treaty, and mjollnir's posts have detailed ample other objective evidence of Obama's anti-2nd position. It is, in fact, precisely and only the prospect of a political sh*tstorm that has deterred him from a direct frontal assault and forced him to try end-runs like the UN treaty.

It has been quite some time since the Constitution was paid more than lip service by Federal lawmakers. That's the beauty of the "living document" feint... appoint enough of your own sycophants to the SCOTUS and the Constitution means what we say it means.

Gun/ammo industry taking advantage of it? You bet they are. Just like the sellers of precious metals, "survival" food stocks, etc. Just because somebody's making money doesn't make it a bad idea. Deal with it.

And how, pray tell, is poking fun at "intellectually less fortunate folks" (the phrase itself is a telling marker of your own Obama-like elitism) a good thing? Turning the other cheek is highly overrated, except as a calculated maneuver designed to confuse your opponent.
You do realize that cellular communications in this country are controlled by a tight cabal of companies with remits from federal and state governments, right?

At its core, the gun is a fairly simple machine, I can make one on my hobby lathe in the garage. the smartphone is just the tip of the iceberg of a very complex infrastructure that has natural choke-points, something that governments are well aware of. It's also at the end of a very long and highly technical supply chain. Both of these aspects make today's communications systems highly susceptible to intervention and manipulation.

If you wanted to draw a parallel to personal arms, a closer analogy would have been ham radio, which was personally empowering without so many external dependencies.
@terry flores
At its core, a Word document is nothing but a document. A cell call little more than a really fast letter.
Modern firearms are as far removed from those of the Founding Fathers as SmartPhones are from ink, but they are still covered.
Why?

But Smart Phones have nothing to do with the Second. The rest of the Bill of Rights should cover them, however.
Geez louise. Ever hear of a little thing called the First Amendment? Back when "press" literally meant a printing press? But if you really think the Second should cover cellphones, there's this other little thing called Article V.
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"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press...."
Doesn't matter if you're talking on the phone, or texting, the government can't legally stop you, or your service. Your service can choose to shut you down, as long as they do so within the terms of your contract.

And the usual restrictions on abuse of that right still exist: no phoning in bomb threats, inciting riots or murders, no planning conspiracies to commit capital crimes, etc.

IF we were to treat firearm possession and carrying the same way we treat communication, anyone could carry almost anywhere, fully loaded, as long as they weren't unlawfully using them. No shooting people for the heck of it, or even for disagreeing with you. No shooting propane tanks or trucks, buildings, or family dog. No using a shotgun to cut down your neighbor's pot plants. No random shooting in the air to celebrate a wedding, birthday, or funeral.

Funny thing is, the number of people who would responsibly carry firearms is the same as the number of people who would and do responsibly carry cell phones. It's not the machinery or technology, it's the flesh and blood critter using them.
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Sounds good to me
John L. Ries Updated - 15th Aug
@Dr_Zinj
The proviso should be, however, that abuse of both kinds of devices should be punished severely.

And no, I don't think private citizens have the right to own cannons, rocket launchers, or nuclear weapons, or that they have the right to organize paramilitary units independent of state authority.

Reply to Dr. Zinj:

I think the line on the right to keep and bear arms is that some weapons are simply to dangerous to be allowed in private hands. A handheld aircraft killer could no more be tolerated than one that has to be transported by truck.

Reply to R.L. Hamil:

I generally agree, except that I think that the Branch Davidians were armed rebels (and were rightly treated accordingly), not martyrs for the right to keep and bear arms. I think that the feds over-reacted, but the Branch Davidians were clearly in the wrong.

And, of course, if people rise up in arms because they think the government has exceeded its authority, they may have a moral right to do so, but they should still expect the government to employ force to stop them.

Reply to Richard233:

For better or worse, government is the only public trustee we have that at least tries to represent the whole population. If we can't trust it to act in the public interest at least most of the time, then it needs to be reformed or replaced. Hence, I'm willing to accept governmental control of the armed forces a lot more than I'm willing to accept private warlords (who tend to turn into feudal ones over time). The recent history of countries like Lebanon tends to enforce this attitude.

I've long noted that just about everyone accepts the right to keep and bear arms to some extent, as well as the notion that there are some arms to dangerous to be allowed in private hands (the notion that a large faction opposes any private armaments is a straw man). The real argument is over where the line should be drawn (somewhere between rocks and A-bombs) and how it should be drawn. It appears that you too agree, as you don't think nukes should be in private hands either (but you *might* allow tanks under limited circumstances).
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Actually ...
Dr_Zinj 15th Aug
@John L. Ries
We do have the right to organize paramilitary units independent of state authority; it comes under the first amendment right to peaceful assembly.
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@John L. Ries

Cannons, rocket launchers, and nuclear weapons aren't included because they don't "generally" fall under the category of small arms. And the second amendment applies to small arms, not all arms, by the convention of their having to be born, i.e. carried.
@John L. Ries
A "paramilitary unit" that is merely a peaceful assembly (protected) isn't a problem. Problems arise when either:
* other crimes that are still crimes are committed - right of assembly does _not_ grant right of conspiracy

* the government so grossly exceeds its authority that armed disobedience is a lesser evil than allowing it to proceed unopposed

If either a private organization _or_ government breaks the contract egregiously, all bets are off.

The restraint needed is for neither side to trot out an imaginary double-zero license lightly, whether it was Reno's "justice" department entrapping people (even people with contemptible views) and shooting their family members and pets, or whether it's some armed group that switches to resistance mode when things aren't (yet) _nearly_ bad enough to justify such conduct. Note that the latter is largely hypothetical except for small, isolated, cultish, and dysfunctional groups...at least so long as things don't get really bad. If they do, a lot of heretofore obedient groups just might come out of the woodwork and say "enough". And that's what's _supposed_ to happen!
@John L. Ries
Actually, during the revolutionary and civil wars many of the cannons were provided to the militia by private owners.
The concept of being too dangerous for "private hands"
is, well, silly because it assumes that the public sector
is wiser is some way. We must never forget the
government consists of people that have been empowered
by the population to act but as individuals they are no
more special than the rest of us.

Weapons can be reasonably limited to those that are
responsible citizens, and it should be on a sliding scale
based on the damage those weapons could do. If you
have a ranch, have committed no crimes, and are near
the Mexican border which the Federal government has
failed to enforce to a level that would prevent drug
gangs from coming over, I say let them have a tank if
they want it. If the use of your weapons results in
damage occurring outside the bounds of your property
you would need to be held to account. Its why I can
accept the no personal nuke policy since there is no
way you could guarantee that radiation would not
escape those boundaries.
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Interesting thought
John L. Ries 15th Aug
And it's difficult to simultaneously argue in favor of private ownership of firearms and a state perogative to cut off private communications links, except for *maybe* as a military tactic to quell an armed insurrection (or as a *last* resort for putting down riots). I can't think of any good reasons to do it otherwise.

This isn't to say that communications networks are covered by the Second Amendment (they're clearly not), but they might just be covered by the Ninth.
@John L. Ries The government should NEVER have the authority to cut communications in any circumstance. We the people run the show . . . not them. If the Military needs to quell something, hopefully they've got bigger guns and smarter tactics than the insurgents.

It never fails that once we give up the right to something in this country we rarely, if ever, get it back. Look how the TSA killed private screening companies. Look how they want to branch out to search cars and trains now too. When will it stop?

Once government gets there hands onto something they never let go and just expand.

Give up something like the right to communicate to whoever, whenever . . . and you give up the right when it doesn't suit the governments needs. Sort of like the bully who takes your lunch money because there's nothing you can do about it.
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Even in war?
John L. Ries 15th Aug
@razorsyntax
In a civil war, I would expect the government to try to jam the telecommunications of the rebels (but they wouldn't be using cell phones).
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choosing words carefully
erik.soderquist 15th Aug
i very much appreciated and enjoyed reading this post.

i have only one issue with it. the Constitution of the Unites States of America, as written, does not grant individuals any rights at all, it recognizes these rights as pre-existing nature rights and asserts that no government has the authority to revoke these rights.

the Founding Fathers deliberately used this wording specifically because they did not want a future where a government out of control decided that since it granted these rights, it could revoke them.

i also believe that the wording was intentionally left the wording open enough to allow for progress in ways the Founding Fathers knew they could not imagine. they were, to some extent, historians themselves, and knew advances they already took for granted were unimaginable in previous centuries, and so worded the Constitution to be able to accommodate these advances. this is why the First amendment does not say things like "write letters of protest", or "spread leaflets detailing government wrongs", but rather says "... no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ..." All of these things are forms of speech, as are phone calls, text messages, tweets, etc. and so are covered by freedom of speech.

as such, revoking cell phone access in any form to quell a protest would be a direct violation of the right of free speech
@erik.soderquist Yeah, I agree. The Constitution is a wonderful thing. In just a few words, the Founders managed to set out all our guiding principles. That's why it annoys me that our Congress (both parties) can't seem to get anything done without years of bickering and thousands of pages.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have another Jefferson or Adams in Washington, DC.
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Message has been deleted.
Reality Bites Updated - 15th Aug
  • Flagged
founding fathers, precisely for the reason that most of what government wants to do is tyrannical, and the Founding Fathers understood this. I want my representative to represent my interests, not "get along" with people who oppose my interests.
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Baggins: Yes but...
John L. Ries Updated - 15th Aug
...things do seem to work better when politicians are focused on the public interest, instead of their own re-election prospects or the party line (and few Americans of any political persuasion are in favor of doing away with divided government). Somehow, I doubt you think hundred (much less thousand) page bills are in the public interest either (or even in your private interest, unless you're a lawyer or can afford to put one on retainer).
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@David Gewirtz

i'm afraid at this point, Jefferson and Adams would only go to D.C. at the head of a second revolutionary army... what we have now goes so severely against their principles they would not bother trying to be nice to the bureaucrats
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soderquist: I'll take that...
John L. Ries Updated - 15th Aug
... as an implicit call for the overthrow of the U.S. government (still illegal, last I checked; even for non-Communists). But even if your Second Revolutionary Army marches on Washington and arrests all of the evil politicians and bureaucrats you appear to regard as tyrants, you would still need to figure out what to do with all of your fellow citizens who made it all possible by voting (according to you) the wrong way.

Looks like I may find my way into a reeducation camp after all. I just hope I only have to listen to Conservative talk radio 4 hours a day, instead of 16.

Reply to the reply:

Calling for the overthrow of the government is not treason under US law, as that is defined in the U.S. Constitution as "making war on the United States, or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" (many state constitutions have similar definitions). Advocating the violent overthrow of the US government is, nevertheless a felony (as is seditious conspiracy), by act of Congress. A number of US Communist leaders were even jailed for it back in the 1950s, and should have been.

And the signers of the Declaration of Independence knew full well what the consequences of their actions would be if they lost the war. They did it anyway because they thought it was the right thing to do, under the circumstances. Remember also that almost none of them advocated independence before the war broke out, and none (as far as I know) advocated the overthrow of the British government (only release from its jurisdiction).

Finally, if history were written solely by the winners, the advocates of secession in 1861 would today be reviled as traitors, instead of lauded as heroes in one third of the United States. Which they really were will be decided by a much more competant (and impartial) judge than either you or me.
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a call to overthrow?
erik.soderquist Updated - 16th Aug
@John L. Ries

all things are relative

what we have now for government is far more invasive and heavy handed than what Adams and Jefferson sought to overthrow; however, we, as a whole, elected these people, so they are just as likely, if not more so, to turn their backs on use and tell us we deserve the mess we are in for not paying attention to our history

however: you are correct that it would be high treason to call for such an action. high treason was the primary charge leveled against the revolutionary leaders by the crown. had the revolutionaries lost, the leaders would have been executed as traitors to the crown. that is the nature of leading a revolution: if you win, you are glorious visionary leaders, if you lose, you are traitors. the winner writes the history books.

**reply to reply

treason or felony, gov't still won't like it, and will be quite harsh about expressing that dislike.

yes, they did know full well what they were doing, and did take the risks involved. there is some debate about terminology regarding "overthrow" and how it is applied to the American Revolutionary War. they "overthrew" the local government, controlled directly by the crown, and this was their goal. they had no interest in going back across the Atlantic and trying to claim the British crown (like you, as far as i know) for themselves. they just wanted to be left alone. does that count as an "overthrowing" of the current government? in the classical sense, not really, as they didn't destroy or take the British crown or empire. they just left it and created their own new government. at the same time, they did destroy the existing local government which was an extension of the Crown.

as to the 1861 secession attempt, did they really lose? technical victory or defeat, they made a lot of people think about the current state of things... i have always had the impression that it was more of a cease fire than a true loss, as the cause(s) is(are) still debated now, and from a purely technical standpoint it could (and sometimes is) argued that the secession advocates were well within their rights under the Constitution to call for secession. this is a debate i don't enter, as i lack the knowledge to enter it.

a lot of it comes down to semantics and meanings of specific words... and i really don't want to debate the meaning of the word "is"
Excellent points but today would contend that we're relating the wrong two issues. The right to your cell phone/communication equipment should be related to the right to free speech. Unfortunately there have been several rulings to equate speech with sending money to someone. I think that current technology has come to a point that better describes our speech than giving a dollar.

To be honest I don't think that money conveys any speech. Money is for commerce. You can buy something with it but you can't say anything with it. Our courts should be protecting our rights of access to the medium, remember the FCC and owning the airwaves. That's about speech. If I hand an individual a stack of money I'm buying something probably their ethics or their vote.
@clif@... You are wrong. Contributing to a political or any other group is also protected explicitely by Amendment 1 in the right of assembly. Tyrants love to make it illegal for individuals to pool their resources. It makes it much easier to pick off the enemy one by one.

It is not the act of contributing that is the problem. It is the ability to gain an advantage through state power that is wrong. This is the real problem. If corporations and other interest groups could not use the state to gain advantage over others, there would not be a question about political contributions.
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Right to bribe
John L. Ries Updated - 16th Aug
@ejpoleii
AFAIC, it should be assumed that any political contribution made by a for-profit corporation (directly or indirectly) is for the purpose of giving itself a commercial advantage.

If corporate executives or shareholders want to particpate in the political process, they should use their own money. Or if they want to petition, they can do it the old fashioned way (by submitting a written petition, instead of hiring lobbyists). But not allowing money spent on political activities (including lobbying) to be claimed as business expenses would do a lot to fight corruption.

BTW: Corruption in the US was actually at it's worst in the late 19th century when government regulation was far more limited than it is today.

Reply to Richard233:

One of the reasons why money is not speech is that money tends to be used as a political weapon (harder to use actual speech that way). Even so, it's only due to an unfortunate and (says me) wrong US Supreme Court precedent that corporations are considered to be people for the purposes of the 14th Amendment. Properly, they are creatures of the state and have only the privileges accorded to them by law. People have rights, corporations don't. Thus, I'm much more willing to have individuals spend their *own* money to try to elect the candidates they favor than to allow corporations and trade associations to do so.

Reply to Adornoe:

Interestingly enough, US law has prohibited direct contributions to federal political campaigns by both labor unions and corporations since the 1940s (and should). I think that law is in danger given recent precedent, but it still holds. My preference would be to bar both corporations and unions from funding political parties or PACs, but I don't know if that is possible given current Supreme Court precedent (money=speech). Indepedent expenditures and lobbying probably can't be touched, but I think it might be possible to bar unions from using dues revenue for political activities (but members could contribute money voluntarily for that purpose, if they wish), except in open shops (where workers have a choice as to whether or not to join). As stated earlier, I don't think money spent on political activity should be claimable as a business expense (ie. it should come out of after-tax profits, not operations); after all, individual expenditures on such things are not tax deductible either.

It would also be helpful if members of Congress and their staffs were barred from receiving campaign contributions at their offices and lobbyists were barred from delivering campaign contributions from third parties.

As a whole, the system would be a lot healthier if the vast majority of campaign financing came from individual contributions, most actual campaigning was done by volunteers, and lobbyists had no involvement. Whatever can be done to bring things closer to that goal works for me.
@ejpoleii All contributions are made with the intent of
supporting those that have a belief system that will best
support your own interests.

The ability to contribute carries the implicit threat that
you could give your money to the opponents. Lobbying
is done for two reasons by businesses. They either want
to make rules/laws that act in their interest or they want
to counter rules/laws being pushed by those who have
interests counter to their own.

If you really want to stop corruption you should just
need to require the politicians to publicly post any monies
received in real time. You get the check, you report it
then and there. That way it becomes a lot easier to see
that someone is getting something just before or after a
vote and it will help reveal people who appear to be
swayed by an influx of cash.
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Dumbest thing I ever read
deepee912 18th Aug
You certainly have a right to carry a cell phone but the government is not obligated to provide or protect your cell service.

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