Senators cry 'child abuse' as they seek to dismantle the Net

By | February 23, 2009, 10:11am PST

Summary: Texas Republicans want to require ISPs and hotspot operators to retain user data for two years. The penalty? 10 years in prison.

Is the “Internet SAFETY Act” (otherwise known as S.436 and HR.1076 reallyabout stopping online child abuse? Or is it a way to give copyright holders what they have long been crying for: a legal requirement that ISPs retain user data forever?

At News.com, Declan McCullagh points out:

[The RIAA and MPAA] wrote in a 2005 letter to a committee of the European Parliament that “it is essential that service providers retain the relevant data for a reasonable period and that the data can be disclosed for appropriate purposes.”

The law, if passed as proposed, would require not only ISPs but all Wi-Fi access points (that means you) to keep records for two years. This is because the “limitless nature offers anonymity that has opened the door to criminals looking to harm innocent children,” said Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX). And the penalty is nothing to sneeze at:

Whoever, being an Internet content hosting provider or e-mail service provider, knowingly engages in any conduct the provider knows or has reason to believe facilitates access to, or the possession of, child pornography…shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

We already know the risk to kids is vastly overstated by forces that want to control the Net. But even though some kids are at risk, does that necessitate the dismantling of a core feature of the Internet?

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C., said the Internet Safety Act would “create new risk” for Internet users and expose them to “possible liability in civil suits and supboena fishing expeditions–it’s a terrible idea.”

And what’s this about hotspots?

Paul Levy, an attorney at the Ralph Nader-founded Public Citizen group who has litigated Internet anonymity cases, says: “I have a Wi-Fi network at home, and I would have no idea how to retain IP information. This has a chilling effect on speaking, the fact that your information remains around for such a long time,” Levy said.

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Disclosure

Richard Koman

http://government.zdnet.com/?page_id=3731

Biography

Richard Koman

Richard Koman is an attorney admitted to practice in California. As a technology writer since the mid-1980s, Richard Koman has documented the role of computing in the transformation of the graphic arts, the growth of the Web and the birth of the peer-to-peer phenomenon. He worked as a book and web editor for O'Reilly Media throughout the 1990s, editing several influential websites and numerous best-sellers. As a lawyer, as well as a tech writer, he brings a unique perspective to the blog's intersection of law, government and technology.
54
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

Pedosexuals have always been around
Lerianis 14th Mar 2009
And it's about time to just get used to the fact that they will be around and legalize pedosexuality. I mean, if they TRULY want to protect children from truly forced sexual encounters, knowing who was a pedosexual and who wasn't would go a long way towards that!

Personally, I LOVED sex with adults as a child, and I get angry when people say that I was 'forced' into it. When I have looked at the experiences of other people, I have to scoff 90% of the time and say "Excuse me, you were not forced, you acquiesced without saying that!"
0 Votes
+ -
wow that senator is so funny
Quebec-french 23rd Feb 2009
how much do you think that 2 years retention on data is gonna cost ..... tape back up and everything wow intelligence at a pure state wow
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
Linux User 147560 23rd Feb 2009
I call total BULLSHYTE! It's about implementing more Socio-Fascist control and monitoring over the people. It's not about "saving the children". They want to save the children? How about starting with the real source of the problem... the parents!
Want to stop a huge and growing segment of child porn? Ban children from owning cellphones. Hardly a week goes by now where some poor 14 year old gets arrested for sending a nude pic of herself to her boyfriend. In 2003, 7,677 children died in car accidents. Should children be banned from cars? Only if they were listening to pirated music. If we ever tried to legislate a perfect world we'd end up with Hell. The RIAA has made it clear that selling music is old hat. Their new business model is get everyone else to spy on us and then start raking in the money.
0 Votes
+ -
This bill is BOGUS...
techboy_z 23rd Feb 2009
For the record, I'm a conservative -- let's not assume that because the sponsors are Republicans, that all Republicans (or conservatives, not all of whom are Repubs) are behind this bill! I am NOT.

It is BOGUS -- what child pornographer is going to sit in a public coffee shop doing his thing? NONE. This is all about privacy and the government's feeling that it needs complete traceability of everything we do. That notion must END.
0 Votes
+ -
I agree
goordman 23rd Feb 2009
I, too, am a Republican, but could not stand behind this bill even a little. The government has already stepped in to our lives much too much. We need to be working on getting them back out of our lives.
0 Votes
+ -
I'm neither a conservative, nor a Republican
John L. Ries Updated - 23rd Feb 2009
I consider myself a middle-of-the-road independent, but I agree with both of you that this is a spectacularly bad idea. With that in mind, here is a character test for President Obama: would he be willing to veto this bill if it passes, even if doing so would offend major Democratic contributors (ie. the copyright lobby)?

Don't know about the rest of you, but if a politician is willing to stand up to lobbyists and pressure groups and do what he honestly believes to be in the public interest (when the political risks obviously outweigh the likely gains), I'm highly likely to vote for him, even if I think he's wrong.
0 Votes
+ -
It would help
Roger Ramjet 23rd Feb 2009
if there was a definitive definition of what child pr0n really is. Just being naked in a picture doesn't equal pr0n (nudist groups have fought for years over this). What about art? There is no better definition of child pr0n as "I know it when I see it".

I have been advocating my own "solution" to this - and here it is:

If some "act" is illegal - it is illegal to have a picture of it! If you are found with said picture, you are either a witness or a criminal.

Beating, raping, torturing, restraining, etc. are against the law, so having a picture (movie) proves that you are the criminal. Taking a picture of a pre-teen dancing around in the nude just doesn't meet that criteria.
0 Votes
+ -
I'll buy that
John L. Ries Updated - 23rd Feb 2009
I would consider adding, though... If it's illegal to do it in public, then it should be illegal to show it in public (to include commercial establishments open to the public and publicly accessible websites). But your proposal should be the minimum standard.

I'll even concede the nudity issue, if that's all it is, but lewd and lascivious conduct on a commercial stage (or on a movie theater screen) should be treated the same way as if it had been done in a public park.
0 Votes
+ -
Sauce for the goose!
c_hirst@... Updated - 24th Feb 2009
How about requiring that all politician's phone calls should be recorded and kept for two years - then released to the public!
If you're going to ban depiction of anything that's illegal, you might as well shut down Hollywood. The parts of the world that censor nudity tend to use violence as a sex-substitute.
0 Votes
+ -
How about this?
John L. Ries Updated - 24th Feb 2009
Simulated crimes have appeared in plays for almost as long as there has been drama, but commit a real crime on stage and you're likely to have trouble. So how about making the standard for public entertainments:

If it would be illegal to perform it out of doors in a public park, it should also be illegal to perform it on an indoor commercial stage, or exhibit it on screen in a commercial movie theater (or on the public Internet, or on television). Says me, all of those places are part of the public square, while private homes, and truly private clubs are not.

This would make a lot of people in the entertainment industry unhappy, but it would eliminate a good deal of hypocrisy, one way, or another.

As noted in a different post, I'm opposed to the retention requirement proposal. In general, businesses should keep records for their own benefit, and that of their customers, not specifically to aid the police.

0 Votes
+ -
This I LIKE !
Jkirk3279 25th Feb 2009
Perhaps ALL Congressmen should have their phones and computers
tapped, so that when they get caught with a hooker the full extent of
their hypocrisy will be obvious.
0 Votes
+ -
This is typical
Jkirk3279 Updated - 25th Feb 2009
Moral Grandstanding.

It's a typical trick to get votes if you feel your career in politics may be
shaky.


Rant and rave about X. X threatens our children because of Y and Z,
we must outlaw X.

Never mind that it would impose non-funded mandates on
businesses that are
themselves a bit shaky right now.


Never mind that it increases the size of Government.

Never mind that it's an issue for Americans to deal with privately, or
that Congress has LOTS
of critical work to to just to save our economy from the Second Great
Depression.

Of course, the author of the bill could be just an idiot with no
understanding of the
technical repercussions of his bill.

No matter the cost, we must OUTLAW X ! For the children !!

Yeah, that's the ticket.
0 Votes
+ -
Terrorism.....
saqib911@... 23rd Feb 2009
If the child porn trick wont work then it will move to recipes for WMD's being available on the net. If that wont work, then it will be some poor country being branded something similar to an "axis of evil". And even if that wont work, there will be a dossier that a certain terrorist group has the capability to use the net to launch ICBM's.

Just like the Patriot Act (your gran Ma can be arrested and detained indefinately for using her microwave under this act!!) which encroaches on peoples privacy in the name of National security, this is going to be another move to misguide the (already misled) american people and the whole world about their safety hence the reason why it should be legalised and spread the world over.

When someone starts to invade your privacy saying that they are helping you....there is no help there, only Malice.
0 Votes
+ -
?? Due Process ??
madrucke@... 23rd Feb 2009


or has reason to believe facilitates access to, or the possession of, child pornography...
[\quote]

Is there anything net-centric that can not be construed as to be an "enabler" to a persistent and determined child pornographer?

Even a secured home Wi-Fi is a potential target.

***AND*** Please note the langauge doesn't say anything about **PROVING** Faciltation or Possesion!!!

I think the NYT Cartoon showing Congress as Chimpanzees was dead on!

Mike SR.

0 Votes
+ -
So yesterday
Bill4 23rd Feb 2009
Due process. The first, second, fourth, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments are all so dated. In the current world climate these just give aid and comfort to our government's enemies and need to be repealed.

No, humorless ones, I don't mean any of it.
0 Votes
+ -
haha
midenginedrift 24th Feb 2009
thanks for clarifying happy
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
twaynesdomain 23rd Feb 2009
1. Not bipartisan; only one part involved.
2. Contrived, really reaching in order to include more than is necessary to record keep
3. Forcing the ignorant/newbie to break the law without even realizing it.
4. Typical crap from our gummint critters only out for themselves and any infamy they can create for themselves. They don't really care about the kids; they are a convenient "collateral" impact for these idiots.

Complete trash and scary because the PTB have no idea what they are doing.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
ZenaPrincess 23rd Feb 2009
They are always using 'children' to abuse the American people. It's all about the money, taxes. They ought to be jailed for violating the constitution and abuse of human rights. Let's burn them at the stake. And jail and fine THEM if they allow their underage children to use the internet without parental supervision.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
ZenaPrincess 23rd Feb 2009
Look! The truth comes out! The Republican party is the NANNY STATERS!!!!
0 Votes
+ -
Translation:
Jkirk3279 25th Feb 2009
I grew up in an evangelical church, more or less.

So I understand how the Christian Right thinks.

Let me translate.


There are two separate view of Religion and Sin.

The Left sees Religion as private. The Right does not.


The Left tends to see Sin as being between a person and his or her God.

The whole "Condemn Not lest you be Condemned: Judge Not lest you be Judged"
quote fits quite well here.


The Right sees Sin as an insult to God, an affront. They act as if they have a mandate
to stamp out Sin, shame the sinner, and humiliate them. All to save their soul, of
course.


At least, they do when it's someone they don't know.

If it's Rushie, and he's found guilty of paying someone for illegal oxycontin, well, they
gloss over that.

Despite Rushie's having beaten the drum against junkies for years... when HE
becomes a junkie, they are willing to overlook that.

If it's one of their own, and he has an affair or hires a prostitute, they gloss over that.
All they have to hear is a fake apology and a conversion story, and they're good.

But if it's someone on the Left, why, Hell hath no Fury by comparison.


So when you hear the Right using Righteous Indignation as a tool: when you hear
them prating about how Playboy destroys lives and enslaves women: when they play
the "protect the children" card, realize they're trying to stamp out Sin.

I hope, and pray, that we can educate Americans to realize when a politician is playing
them by appealing to their religious beliefs.

But I don't know how to do it. I really don't.

How do you teach skepticism? Respect for logic?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
hawkwind58@... 23rd Feb 2009
"I'm from the gummint and I'm here to help" HAH
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
deowll 23rd Feb 2009
Why do I have the feeling this is being pushed by some porn surfing pervert that got elected to office and wants to look good to the ignorant while being a total bleep?

The younger generation by and large isn't that ignorant. Most of them use the web all the time. This isn't the instant brownie points it might once have been.
Tell them not to support this, or other bills of similar ilk.

Tell them why it's a bad idea.

Legislators only bring bills to the table that someone has proposed to them, and convinced them it's in their best interests (personally, financially, professionally, politically, or maybe medically) to present to Congress.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
kevmark58@... 24th Feb 2009
I wrote both Senator Stabenow and Levin as well as
Representative Kildee to not vote on these.

0 Votes
+ -
Is it 1984 again?
sandshark75 24th Feb 2009
How can the topic of the utter abuse of privacy infringement keep getting re-hashed and re-labeled by our government? When will they realize that free people will never tolerate the totalitarian invasion and pilfering of basic privacy? Children - like all of us - are at risk from any number of tragic events. We cannot control the possibility of such things occurring by creating even larger tragedies. This mandatory tracking of all internet data usage en-mass would be a devastating infringement on freedom of information, and therefore freedom of speech. I can't believe this is even up for discussion.
0 Votes
+ -
You better believe it!
midenginedrift 24th Feb 2009

When will they realize that free people will never tolerate the totalitarian invasion and pilfering of basic privacy?



Don't you realize that the aim is to get us to tolerate this?? It keeps being brought back up because some people want this. Some number of people in powerful places want to pull the wool over our eyes so they can do whatever their hearts please.

The general population is under constant attack psychologically, intellectually, and spiritually.

It's government vs the people.
0 Votes
+ -
It will pass
dcdavy 24th Feb 2009
It will pass for the same reason as prohibition did in the past. Once you say "kids are in danger" (or anything else, like -democracy-), only a fool will not raise a hand for it. Because if you don't support it, you are automatically suspected criminal. You could have seen it after 9/11/2001. Anybody who raised concern about the reasons for going after Iraq was labeled an non patriotic. Of course one will see the outcome after a couple of years and will start wondering, how come people voted for this ? But it is always too late to fix the mistakes of the past, yet we're getting into new ones over and over again. Like drinking age limit being 21. Totally utterly stupid thing. Does it limit teenagers from getting overdosed ? No way, alcohol now serves to teens as a benchmark of coolness. There's countries out there where drinking limit is 15 y/o and everybody's OK.
One could go on and on through the list of things banned because some time in the past someone got hurt and someone else built political capital on it.
0 Votes
+ -
Get a Warrent
thekeefers@... 24th Feb 2009
I thought we had a process for this. In fact I am reasonably certain that if you asked most providers today to give you a list of all the persons going to a certain IP address that they would be willing to give the log entries to you.

If they want the logs then get a warrent and mask what they are not specifically searching for.

Better yet have them work with a black list organization and then use that to log them seperately and send to a central location. Let's be real and put a oversight group on this so they just don't take everything...
0 Votes
+ -
Cornyn is a Dinosaur
lewisbutler@... 24th Feb 2009
And ought to be extinct.. his rationale is to force expensive record keeping on the ISPs in order to prosecute the few bad apples out there, all in the name of "family values". Where were his family values when he voted against the Economic Recovery Act?

On the other hand, think of all the fun we could have with investigating members of Congress; maybe this isn't such a bad idea, after all...
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
dmhunter@... 24th Feb 2009
I have a wireless access point that I have locked down as tighly as I can. If the government want me to keep logs, then they need to provide the software and storage medium to retain these logs. Because I sure as hell will not pay for either of them!
0 Votes
+ -
I too have...
rmazzeo 24th Feb 2009
...a secured WAP for my family use. First of all, if someone figures out how to steal my bandwidth, aren't THEY the criminal? Secondly, I agree that the government will have to pay all my costs for any record-keeping, including my time. As a consultant, they would be expected to pay my regular fee as their independent contractor...& I'm not cheap...
0 Votes
+ -
Sure, some of us try to secure our WAP in some form. I imagine yours are more secure than mine just because I am new to this stuff. Still, what of all the old WAPs that have been sold for years to the average home owner? I have parked my car in neighborhoods and turned my personal laptop to find several unsecured wireless access points. I doubt all those home owners would even have a clue about this legislation until it was directly applied to them--as in they failed to have the requisite logs. So, if the law doesn't offer some form of "loop hole" for your home networking, then it is going to run into a lot of unprepared ordinary citizens. Just think of all the issues going on with the conversion to digital TV (I do have a DTV converter). And the DTV conversion has been highly publicized. So, are we looking at coupons for boxes to connect to our home networks to record that two years of internet activity? Without looking at the actual bill, I can only hope that this is kept to businesses for enforcement purposes. Either way, we will pay the bill for any such legislation. Whether it comes in taxes, higher ISP rates, or both--which is most likely.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
wfd1 24th Feb 2009
Uh, Huh. Yeah. Those senators and Congress folk would just love to get their filthy paws on your and my computers.
0 Votes
+ -
Obtuse ignorance...
i8thecat 24th Feb 2009
The internet is a global world that really doesn't have borders.

Putting an end to child porn is going to take the same steps as putting an end to drug traffic, pollution, global warming, etc....

A global effort with the entire world working together to regulate, catch, and punish the offenders.

A country that offers a safe haven to those that offend, needs to be taken over by a responsible country. Both the supply and the demand have to be attacked equally. The entire world has to be on the same page and dedicate the resources to stopping it.

Until all countries are on the same page, it will continue to be a problem.

Logging IPs for a sliding 2 year window is not going to do squat. Who has the manpower to go through that much raw data?

Linux User 147560 hit the nail on the head... Problem stems from parents... But more than that, our global society... What if the parents died and left an orphaned child. Society needs to do a better job at protecting all children. I suggest harsher penalties for those who prey on children as a start.

Basically we have to do better as a planet...

Senators without a clue no longer belong in office... I think the maximum age for any politician should be 60. Once they hit that age they are way too old to understand the current world.
0 Votes
+ -
Oh Please...
rmazzeo 24th Feb 2009
...we all can see how well we've done eliminating, or even minimizing, drugs or pollution (global warming is yet another myth designed to get our money to line politicians pockets). What Utopia are you moving to? Face it, we live in a modern version of the last days of the corrupt Roman Empire - as the Russians once said, we will destroy ourselves from within. We're doing it now. The only hope we have as individuals is to protect our own & assist those closest to us. If EVERYONE did that, we might have a chance...
0 Votes
+ -
age has nothing to do with it
josephmartins 25th Feb 2009
60? Sounds arbitrary to me. I know folks of all ages who haven't a clue about current affairs. This has nothing to do with age and everything to do with personal agendas.

Historically, politicians have always wanted the world to conform to their ideals rather than the other way around. We haven't had a government for the people, by the people in more than 100 years.

0 Votes
+ -
The people get the government they deserve...
mikifinaz1@... 24th Feb 2009
And the average American has been domesticated to be stupid and lead around by the nose.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
Kirinis 24th Feb 2009
I think someone is trying very hard to raise awareness, but to expect the ISP's or home owners who use Wi-Fi to keep a record is rediculous. Most of us who use Wi-fi can secure it, but the providers... come on, they would have to possibly change their equipment, storage of course would eat up any profits... so we the people are going to have to pay that much more. If the government was giving it free I can see that then, because then they are responsible for how it is getting used, but they dont. Stop trying to use child abuse as an excuse to police the net, we have organizations and departments for that... if you want to be noted for something well done try talking and listening to the people, do something about said problems and if child abusers or porn is the issue execute them rather than support them in prison system...
thats my humble opinion
0 Votes
+ -
Libraries next?
FiOS-Dave 24th Feb 2009
is this going to lead to the government wanting records of all library withdrawals and video surveillance of those entering art galleries as well?

This certainly looks like a way to stifle progress and creativity!

Maybe they should spend more time investigating what goes on with the Pages...

0 Votes
+ -
Homeland Security...
Jkirk3279 25th Feb 2009
Already tried that.

They sent in some agents to various libraries back during the Bush
Administration, demanding to see lists of what people were reading, etc.

They even threatened to arrest people in the library.

Well, they can't. Homeland Security can't arrest anybody. They would have
to call the local cops for that, and convince them.

The librarians bravely stood up to those morons, and kicked them out.

And as proof that Homeland Security was over the line, the librarians weren't
charged with anything.

BTW, America's librarians have huddled up since then and formed a
Nationwide policy on this: nobody can compel such records without a court
order.
0 Votes
+ -
Library Records
c_hirst@... 25th Feb 2009
The last time I wrote a Circulation System, the database only contained the current position of the book. When it was returned, only generalized statistical information was held and there was no way (or need) to know where it had been.
0 Votes
+ -
get ready for world war 3
walkerjian@... 24th Feb 2009
first to file patents, IP theft via abuse of anti-terrorist laws, MPAA and RIAA abusing child protection laws to pursue subpoena fishing for fun and profit. Mafiya activities actively protected by law enforcement agencies seeded with trans-generational stooges, troops deployed worldwide to engage in inventory clearing and ethnic cleansing (inside the US)...
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
lkochis@... 24th Feb 2009
Sen. John Corny-n-%&(*%^ has always had the best interests of his major contributors at heart. Now it's his turn to pay back the RIAA. But what do you expect from a Texas Bushie. Look at John's past record, Patriot Act, Guantanamo, a general record of destroying civil rights while waving the flag and thumping the Bible. God help us if he gets his way. I live in Texas and have had to live with his actions first hand. Protest, write your congressmen and hope there exists enough sane people in congress to kill this Orwellian fiasco.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
Tinman57 24th Feb 2009
Since when was the internet created for kids? Just like TV, kids using the internet should be monitored by the parents.
Out in the world kids can be abused without parental supervision (keeping a close eye out).
There will always be a way to circumvent any technology created, so why even waste our tax dollars. Not to mention this is only going to drive up the cost of internetting, we will be the ones paying for the storage of information.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
bobc4012@... 24th Feb 2009
Koman needs to extract his head from his left-wing liberal butt. If anyone takes the time to read the proposed legislation, it has nothing to do with RIAA and the like. It is aimed at targeting "kiddie porn". I know one can always make the case it could be twisted to serve other purposes (like the "Fairness Doctrine"). What Koman should have done is included the S.436 bill text. It is not that lengthy. The HR.1076 bill was introduced in the 109th and 110th Congress and was "DOA". Liberals just love their "kiddie porn" - its like poking the conservatives in the eye with a sharp stick.
0 Votes
+ -
I read it...
Jkirk3279 25th Feb 2009
You're mistaken.


By requiring an unfunded mandate for ISP's to keep records for two years, the bill
offers a giant boon to the RIAA.


You see, their campaign to sue the parents of twelve year olds who downloaded
music hasn't been going as well as they may have hoped.

For one thing, it's bad public relations to sue single moms.

But the RIAA is like a pack of wolves: they eat what they kill, or they don't eat at
all.

If they had access to that retained data, they could greatly expand their blackmail
operations, looking for victims less likely to excite public sympathy.

College frat boys, for example. Nobody cares if they get sued. Get the idea?



The theory behind the bill is that retaining all this data would make it possible to
track any person's internet use.

The practice? Anybody can get a new, disposable internet address from yahoo
or google or hotmail.

With no billing data, there's no reason for anyone to use their real name.

So an actual internet predator would probably create a new identity every week as
insulation against investigation.

So what's the next step, if this bill passes? Probably an attempt to destroy the
anonymity of the Internet somehow.

Now THAT would be difficult. The only thing physically identifiable about a
computer is its' MAC address.

But if all ISPs' were forced to collect MAC address info at sign-on, it could be
possible.

Until someone quickly comes up with a MAC address spoofer.... I suspect that's
already available.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Senators cry
Atari800 25th Feb 2009
Oh, child abuse my &$$. The only child abuse involved is not properly parenting the kid. Start paying attention to what they are doing on the net and spank if necessary! (There are more ways to spank than hitting the kid. Sheeesh!)
0 Votes
+ -
Fascist America
cmatrix 25th Feb 2009
Welcome to fascist America. The two docs below will help you understand why they are doing this. They want to control the Net to control access to information to keep you in the dark about what's really going on. Only you can stop them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=OjifSez3OpGsrQL6s93SCg&q=the+money+masters&hl=en

See also:

http://www.snakesinsuits.com/
0 Votes
+ -
If the USA was really fascist...
John L. Ries 26th Feb 2009
...such issues wouldn't even be discussed. Instead the "maximum leader for national liberation" would simply issue a decree (or maybe have his rubber-stamp parliament do it for him by unanimous consent) and anyone who objected would be punished in such manner as he saw fit.

Facsism is about imposing national unity by force (no dissent allowed). In a fascist system such as those established by Mussolini and Hitler, public policy decisions are made by leaders without public discussion, not by representative assemblies.

0 Votes
+ -
On the road to fascism
cmatrix 27th Feb 2009
If the USA was on the road to fascist dictatorship it would implement the strategies and policies that all fascist governments before have used. As the article below shows, the USA is very much doing all these things:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

All they need now is an ultra charismatic messianic leader to pound the final nails...Oh $#%&!
0 Votes
+ -
Pedosexuals have always been around
Lerianis 14th Mar 2009
And it's about time to just get used to the fact that they will be around and legalize pedosexuality. I mean, if they TRULY want to protect children from truly forced sexual encounters, knowing who was a pedosexual and who wasn't would go a long way towards that!

Personally, I LOVED sex with adults as a child, and I get angry when people say that I was 'forced' into it. When I have looked at the experiences of other people, I have to scoff 90% of the time and say "Excuse me, you were not forced, you acquiesced without saying that!"

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix