Give 'em the cash, forget fuel efficiency

By | November 14, 2008, 3:27pm PST

The chorus of disagreement in Washington over a measly 25-billion dollars is something to behold. For the record that’s less than 4% of the money that’s been earmarked by the federal government to save the banks, insurance companies, the mortgage mills and other big-spenders on Wall Street and their Washington lobbying arms.

Today we hear the sitting president say he wants the Detroit automakers to get the cash, but with no fuel efficiency requirements. Too onerous perhaps?

This bailout for Detroit is an issue heating tempers across the political spectrum. One moderately conservative opinionator writes about the biggest danger to the American economy and its future gorwth: “It’s C.E.O.’s. It’s politically powerful crony capitalists who use their influence to create a stagnant corporate welfare state.”

Outside my local post office today there were three young men from a right-wing group getting petition signatures to stop “The Multi-Trillion Dolloar Bailout.” Meanwhile the United Auto Workers union is coming out big-time for the bail-out. The union is even verbally defending the Big Three auto makers from harsh words being spoken and written. The UAW refers to the cash as a “bridge loan.” Perhaps. The above conservative opinionator has already called it a bridge to nowhere.

There is no final written version of the Detroit bail-out yet. And, if the current president prevails it may have no requirement for any tougher fuel efficiency standards to be met by future auto models out of Detroit. And if the overall economy continues to shrink and consumption to drop, gasoline prices may go down even further and we can just forget this whole fuel efficiency fad, right? Nobody in this discussion has yet said the words “global warming.” But I would like to refer each Congressperson and any White House occupant to the U.N. report on the atmosphere. Give ‘em the cash, if you please…but please don’t forget about fuel efficiency.

A poll on GreenTech Pastures showed little support for just giving Detroit the cash because they’re such fine folks. Some say, to hell with ‘em, use the money for alternative energy. Another large fraction says any bail-out needs series restrictions. So here’s your chance to vote, if you missed it earlier:

Poll

The Detroit auto-makers

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Harry Fuller

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Biography

Harry Fuller

Harry Fuller is a media veteran, having spent decades in TV news in the San Francisco Bay Area. As GeneralManager of KPIX-TV (CBS) he founded one of the nation's first TV station websites in early 1995. He was News Direcor at TechTV when it was founded in 1998. In 2001 he moved to London to become Executive Producer for CNBC Europe. Four years later he returned to San Francisco as Executive Editor for CNET's news.com.

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RE: Give 'em cash with Restrictions
JeffreyNV 27th Nov 2008
Present circumstances present the perfect opportunity to force the big three to "do no evil", (or at least less evil), when it comes to reducing environmental pollution, global warming and U.S. reliance on foreign oil. Meaning, the government should at long last do the sensible thing and force a two year transition to production that requires not less than 51% of all vehicle production being dominated by (i) hybrid vehicles, (ii) natural gas fueled vehicles, (iii) battery fueled vehicles, (iv) compressed air vehicles, (v) fuel cell vehicles, and (vi) other non-fossil fuel alternatives such as bio-fuels.

Similarly, the balance of domestic car production should mandate not less than 35 mpg city, with SUV and Diesel heavy truck production also requiring percentage improvements in city MPG. The technology is there, its just under-utilized.

In terms of transition, well conceived deployments of Federal Tax credits would represent an excellent "bottoms up" stimulus approach to get the economy moving again. By example, GM's "VOLT" is not much a value at $40K offering price. However, with a $20K Federal tax credit, the government would achieve stimulus necessary to kick start bank lending, (thus easing the credit crunch), while ramping up sales of domestically constructed vehicles which maintains and creates new jobs. If added tax benefits were provided for buying domestic in other areas, the economy would undoubtedly improve over the near term.
0 Votes
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Forgot an option.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 14th Nov 2008
Do nothing till they file chapter 11, then work to save them. Just watching CNN. $1500/car to pay for healthcare, workers are making $20-$30 MORE than the same workers at Japanese plants in the southeast, and fully 1/2 of the proposed $25B is "earmarked" for 2007 benefit obligations.

Totally out of control. That means the UAW (and coming from Canada, include the CAW). The fact that they have ever made money in the past saddled with that kind of load amazes me.

To all the workers, you have a choice, revolt, tell the unions to work FOR you, accept reality that you are fighting for your livelihood and FORCE the union management to make serious, real concessions. If the bailout goes through without serious concessions and radical culling of benefits, it buys them 12 months until the next obligation.

Why have the unions themselves offered nothing, absolutely nothing of substance by way of helping the companies that employ their members.

You may not like it, but if you work for the big-3, it's reality and you have to choose between having a job or not.

TripleII
0 Votes
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Agree 100%
MGP2 Updated - 15th Nov 2008
The first place that some money should come from is the $40 (and more) and hour union members, with their grossly over generous fringe benefits and retirement benefits. If they're so concerned about their jobs, let them give up something. They can start with pay cuts, followed by paying a higher percentage (that's if they even pay anything now) toward their medical and retirement.
0 Votes
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america's work force
mngmikes 15th Nov 2008
what you forget to realize... needing to put in account that america's work force is bar none the best in the world. you pay for what you get.
you can get away paying some schlub in china, tawain, mexico, or some 3rd world country because they are illiterate and lack the knowledge that we do.
another reason for higher prices in the us are the measures we take in keeping everything a little more "green" for the planet than any other industrialized country in the world.
did you notice the smog in china during the olympics? and those were good days.
ask yourself this before you criticize a person working for 40 dollars a hour would you want to move to a country that has a terrible environment (non drinkable water, polluted air) and want to do manual labor for 15 dollars a day??
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That's almost racist....
Feldwebel Wolfenstool 16th Nov 2008
...Amerikan Jingo.
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almost racist??
mngmikes 16th Nov 2008
how is it almost racist? it's a proven fact... if i was giving my opinion and going off complete speculation then yes it could be racist.
it's facts alone that have been proven time and time again.
0 Votes
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Yes and that's why
Linux User 147560 16th Nov 2008
some of the best automotive engineers and manufactures are Japanese and German. And that some of the best Engineers in the world are from Scotland. Sorry but Americans are actually lazy and expect more than their worth for their labors. And that is a fact that is seen everyday.

Many of the jobs these people are making $40.00+ an hour for, a trained monkey could do. How hard is it to lift a panel, press a button, lift another piece run a compressed air drill repeat? devil
0 Votes
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for Feldwebel Wolfenstool
mngmikes 16th Nov 2008
now for Feldwebel Wolfenstool this message would be considered racist... full of opinions and stereotypes. what i said is proven facts...

linux user answer me one question... how come when the united states starts to have a recession the rest of the world follows and that when the united states is in an economic boom the rest of the world feels the affect.
0 Votes
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..doesn't make them illiterate. Our only Mexican auto imports are from - the Big 3. We don't import Chinese cars yet thankfully, yet that will soon change. And don't underestimate their quality control, it's improving tremendously. Some of China's new auto factories use state of the art European assemblies. How long did it take Hyundai auto to go from garbage to global competitor? A decade? Belittle them at your own peril. Everyone laughed at Japanese made 'crap' in the 60s. Still laughing?
0 Votes
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speaking english??
mngmikes 18th Nov 2008
did i say anything about speaking english had anything to do with being illiterate?
japanese made stuff is still crap... you never see any hyundai or kia (yes i know kia is korean but they are still part of hyundai)in any top cars to own. the only thing they are good for is cheap parts, stiff rides, with decent gas mileage.
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Get your facts straight
ESoyke 19th Nov 2008
Hyundai is also Korean. So you're saying Toyota, Honda and Nissan are low quality then? Can we have you state that for the record?
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Fact?
jahcriado 17th Nov 2008
I really enjoyed how you gave links to back up all of your stated facts, i really enjoyed the research... Oh, wait, there are no links.
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are you serious?
mngmikes 18th Nov 2008
if you knew anything about economics and growth or even noticed the world's economy fluctuates with the u.s.. it would be simple to know and understand the u.s. workforce is the best in the world.
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Chapter 11 necessity
JimSatterfieldW 17th Nov 2008
For a large corporation to file Chapter 11 they have to borrow money during reorganization from companies that specialize in this kind of credit. With today's credit squeeze these companies don't have the funds to loan. Therefore the Big 3 can't file Chapter 11, it would immediately go into Chapter 7 liquidation proceedings along with the massive job losses and ripple effects for the rest of our economy.
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And unlike GM they don't have 400,000+ retired workers to pay benefits to. It's an all around f'd up situation. They need to get rid of the UAW to survive.
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Was it not Lee Iacoca that said
GuidingLight Updated - 14th Nov 2008
something along the lines of "I have plenty of jobs for 10 dollars an hour, but no jobs for 20 dollars an hour"?

I agree, the UAW is what allowed foreign automakers to get a good foothold with the American public, as why produce a quailty automobile when a worker can not be fired, but will still be given a raise, for doing the absolute bare minimun?
0 Votes
+ -
The rustbelt is a closed union shop.
osreinstall 15th Nov 2008
This is what really gave the unions the power to begin with and then their own form of corruption with the mob. Nobody can work unless they join the union. To me that is a restraint of trade. I am not saying to abolish them, only that workers can choose to join or not.

The problem is that these guys are way overpaid and the rest of the country cannot afford their products with their normal pay scale. I say use the money to invest in the next generation of cars with secured loans. Let the big 3 crash and let someone else pick over the carcass to make cars.
0 Votes
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what the government needs to do is put a stop to this so called free trade! ever since clinton put into place this so called free trade, U.S. based companies have not been able to compete with overseas competitors! it may be better for the "world economy" but what about ours? it's put us in a recession. what is next? the only good thing that may come out of this is the speed up of alternative fueled vehicles
0 Votes
+ -
Oh absolutely!
SamYeager 15th Nov 2008
Of course you won't mind when other countries take exactly the same view and don't import (without really high tariffs) goods from the US will you? wink
0 Votes
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it's already happening
mngmikes Updated - 15th Nov 2008
the problem with that is they are already doing it... exports from the us are on the avg being tariffed 15-1 from what the us is taxing the other countries goods... they call it free trade but in all seriousness there is nothing free about it.
That is exactly the reason everything that used to made in the u.s. is going over seas.
see what happens our economy fails and and the rest of the worlds crumbles...
0 Votes
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The last 168 BILLION DOLLAR round of stimulus checks did NADA for our economy. We must not as a nation forget the role the high cost of our dependence on foreign fuel played in the demise of businesses from the largest to the smallest. The exorbitant cost of gas the past year has done serious damage to our economy and society. Jobs and homes have been lost at a record rate. The increased cost of production and shipping of every consumer good imaginable have been passed on to the consumer.What OPEC has in store for our future is not pretty. We need to take lessons from our mistakes.WE also need to get out from under the grip our dependence on fore gin oil has on us. Why not take some of these billions and invest in America becoming energy independent. Driving an electric car would cost the equivalent of 60 cents a gallon. The electricity could be generated by solar or wind power. Green technology would create millions of badly needed new jobs. What America needs is a green revolution. It is time for us to move forward with alternative energy. I just read Jeff Wilson's new book The Manhattan Project of 2009. I highly recommend this book to anyone who is concerned about the downward spiral of our economy and it's effect on our society and would like to see our country become energy independent! www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com
0 Votes
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Jeff Wilson is a fool
0 Votes
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Green rev, yes...
jahcriado 17th Nov 2008
but we're not there yet. Solar & wind energy still are not efficient enough yet to be able to replace fossil fuels. Nor are they a 24/7 energy tech. The only "green" energy tech that is really viable is Nuclear which has a lot of public distrust over instances that happened over 3 decades ago. Implement clean coal & NG now while we work on real green power for the future.
0 Votes
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Bankruptcy is your friend
riredale 15th Nov 2008
Seriously. One of the great strengths of capitalism is that inefficient operations can FAIL. Chapter 11 means the stuff that doesn't work gets weeded out, resulting in a stronger entity going forward.

One of my biggest fears of the new administration is the likelihood of a major shift towards socialism. The inefficiencies are going to be astounding--imagine most private businesses run like the DMV or the post office. Yikes!
0 Votes
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One thing you're forgetting...
MGP2 Updated - 15th Nov 2008
One of my biggest fears of the new administration is the likelihood of a major shift towards socialism. The inefficiencies are going to be astounding--imagine most private businesses run like the DMV or the post office. Yikes!

The current "conservative" administration has grown the federal government by about 15%. And they've "conserved" the half-trillion dollar surplus they were handed in January of 2001 by turning it into a 10 trillion dollar debt to foreign nations. And FEMA could only HOPE to be run as badly as the DMV. It would be a 10,000% improvement. Yet, instead of complaining about any of that, you're whining and cutting the guy off at the knees before he's even taken office.
0 Votes
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Cutting the guy off at the knees
Dameadows 15th Nov 2008
He does not need any help! Doing a good job of it all by himself!
0 Votes
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...but you're standing by with the axe just in case there should be any doubt, right?
0 Votes
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Defending Socialism with Socialism
Poptech 15th Nov 2008
I fail to see how showing the current socialist decisions by the current administration is a defense of the socialism that is to come under Obama that he outright talks about.

Yes Bush has governed like a fiscal socialist but please explain how redistribution of wealth, taxing more, further expanding government and bailing out more companies is not more socialism?
0 Votes
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Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is if GM goes Chapter 11? Willing to hope your warranty lasts? That parts will always be available? I doubt the parts question would be a serious concern for a long time, but these sort of questions would go through the mind of someone weighing a purchase decision. It's not like flying a bankrupt airline- once you touchdown in the other city your relationship with them is over.
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Your poll has no option for: 'No Bailout, Reduce Inflation'. Instead you have only socialist options like invest in alternative technology, what? Where is that money going to come from? The government is broke they have no money to invest anywhere.

We need less government, not more. GM is failing because they suck and do not make cars people want to buy. Somehow Toyota and Honda manage to produce market competitive products, too bad for GM they lose. The best thing about this is it will break the UAW and hopefully all worthless unions which cripple businesses for their socialist mandate.

People who support socialist solutions are failures in real life.
0 Votes
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RE: Give 'em the cash, forget fuel efficiency
mngmikes Updated - 16th Nov 2008
hi
0 Votes
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GM is the number one car maker...
wmlundine 17th Nov 2008
...in China (according to the last Chris Mathews show). So...one condition for welfare is spend-down. In other words they need to account for assets and agree to a spending plan before they qualify.
0 Votes
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What happened to the free market?
richard233 17th Nov 2008
Seriously. All of this taking public money to
support private companies is, well, not capitalism.

I guess it really depends what way we are going to
travel. If we end up with socialized healthcare,
with people from other countries shipping their
poor here to be treated for "free", then perhaps
the big 3 will get a rebalancing since much of
their expenses come from supporting the health
costs of past and current employees.

I really don't know why certain financial orgs
were not allowed to fail. I do know that the
people at the top of these orgs are still living
quite large and spending money like water.

I'd rather not see the big 3 fail, but I really
don't want it to be a welfare thing either. I
always felt that unions should basically be
buying the stocks of the companies they worked
for. Ownership is the best way to reduce abuses.
If you are in it for the long term, you are less
likely to strangle the goose.

The big 3 want loans?
OK, 1st prove you are serious.
Drop ALL bonuses for ALL execs first.
What, they "need" their bonuses or they will
quit? Well, where exactly are they going to
go? If nothing else, the next company knows
they are not team players.

Next, let the unions come up with some real cost
savings based on a realistic market.

There will be no point in giving a loan to the
big 3 if they are just going to have thier hands
out again a few years down the line. Giving out
loans to people who won't be able to pay is how
we got into this mess in the first place.
0 Votes
+ -
Cut your nose off to spite your face
sboverie 17th Nov 2008
It seems the consensus is to let the american auto makers go under. Real estate and financial bubbles have popped, the reverberations are still travelling around the globe. The US does not have many components to the economy left to keep all of us afloat.

The US automakers and the unions have made bad decisions. Letting them fail without trying is the same as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

This is not capitalism vs socialism, there is no pure form of either that works well. This is about conscious self interest, the Big 3 won't be the only thing that goes down the tubes.

Even the Klingons knew better than to fight in a burning barn.
0 Votes
+ -
None of the Above!
buddha26 17th Nov 2008
Where is the poll option for folks that are NOT socialist at heart?

No bailouts. No new regulations. Period.

If you want socialism, move to Europe.

The reference to the IPCC is comically tragic.
0 Votes
+ -
Give it to Aptera...
Q'sDad 17th Nov 2008
...and the other dozens of AMERICAN startups that are developing truly fuel efficient cars. These small companies are pointed in the right direction. The big three has ignored the path that must be taken to stop our money going to oil countries. The top three alone (Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Iran) can not be considered to have our best interest at heart.

Sadly, sub-$2 gas has made Americans forget about this problem. (Short attention span.)
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Give 'em cash with Restrictions
JeffreyNV 27th Nov 2008
Present circumstances present the perfect opportunity to force the big three to "do no evil", (or at least less evil), when it comes to reducing environmental pollution, global warming and U.S. reliance on foreign oil. Meaning, the government should at long last do the sensible thing and force a two year transition to production that requires not less than 51% of all vehicle production being dominated by (i) hybrid vehicles, (ii) natural gas fueled vehicles, (iii) battery fueled vehicles, (iv) compressed air vehicles, (v) fuel cell vehicles, and (vi) other non-fossil fuel alternatives such as bio-fuels.

Similarly, the balance of domestic car production should mandate not less than 35 mpg city, with SUV and Diesel heavy truck production also requiring percentage improvements in city MPG. The technology is there, its just under-utilized.

In terms of transition, well conceived deployments of Federal Tax credits would represent an excellent "bottoms up" stimulus approach to get the economy moving again. By example, GM's "VOLT" is not much a value at $40K offering price. However, with a $20K Federal tax credit, the government would achieve stimulus necessary to kick start bank lending, (thus easing the credit crunch), while ramping up sales of domestically constructed vehicles which maintains and creates new jobs. If added tax benefits were provided for buying domestic in other areas, the economy would undoubtedly improve over the near term.

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