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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
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Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!

By | August 7, 2008, 9:02am PDT

Summary: The complaint claims that Apple misleadingly classified workers as management employees in order to avoid having to pay them overtime.

I’m having a really hard time getting my head around this:

A LAWSUIT filed Monday in California seeks class action status alleging that Apple denied technical staffers required overtime pay and meal compensation in violation of state law.

…

Lead plaintiff David Walsh was employed by Apple as a network engineer from 1995 until 2007. His complaint says he was often required to work more than 40 hours per week, miss meals, and spend his evenings and even entire weekends on call without any overtime pay or meal compensation. He fielded technical support calls that often came after 11 pm.

This case is a real deal (I had my doubts - court filings here and here). The complaint claims that Apple misleadingly classified Walsh and other workers as management employees in order to avoid having to pay them overtime. The complaint claims that working conditions resembled indentured servitude.

Not sure if I buy that whole indentured servitude bit, sounds a little over the top to me. Also, the working conditions described don’t sound all that bad, or different to what other salaried tech employees receive, to me.

Thoughts?

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Topics

overtime, apple inc., class action, benefits, human resources, adrian kingsley-hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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Well, what you explain...
Predator106 1st Sep 2008
Is perfectly within his legal right. What she has done-and is doing-goes against the constitution, making a mockery of the legal system. I forget what to actually name off, it wasn't extremely serious, but it was disrespectful and often undermining an attendee, calling them stupid or ignorant, which is clearly going beyond the protective umbrella that freedom of speech grants.
View in thread
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You SUE for slavery?
laura.b 7th Aug 2008
Huh.

I did not know that. I would have thought criminal charges for such an act would be more appropriate.


I have a question, though. If he disliked the arrangement so much...why didn't he just quit? Some people will sue over anything.
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Exactly what I was thinking...
MGP2 7th Aug 2008
I have a question, though. If he disliked the arrangement so much...why didn't he just quit?

Things were so bad that he stayed there for 12 years? I can see someone claiming they stayed for months or a year till they could find a comparable position...but to stay 12 years and THEN claim conditions were horrible? I'd love to see him on Judge Judy. She'd send him packing, and probably in tears at that.
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Dude, I LOVE Judge Judy.
laura.b 7th Aug 2008
My husband hates her with a passion....but I get home before he does, and she's usually off by the time he gets in. happy

I would love to hear what she had to say to this guy. Even if every word is true, she'd have a colorful phrase or two for him for putting up with it for over a decade. I'm sure I'd agree with her, as he's clearly either lying (which I suspect), a moron, or a total doormat.

happy
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I can see your husband's point...
MGP2 7th Aug 2008
My husband hates her with a passion....

I USED to hate her. But that was cuz I'd only caught bits and pieces of her show. After watching her show more, I started to see how she'd get people to admit things they'd previously sworn werent' true. Now, I think she's Judge Genius.
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I hate Judge Judy
Predator106 10th Aug 2008
She's a *****, you could go in there with a valid reason, and are clearly in the right and she will end up criticizing you, not believing you, and enforcing very strict "court etiquette". The way she enforces her court, is ridiculous. When you enter the court room, she will be prejudice due to the fact that your hair is in an arrangement she dislikes, and be critiqued for it. Besides, Judge Judy isn't real, it's based on real court cases, there is no way a real arbiter would be able to act the way she does without having some serious repercussions.
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Really?
laura.b 11th Aug 2008
there is no way a real arbiter would be able to act the way she does without having some serious repercussions.


A previous judge in my hometown used to come into court, and put his pistol on the bench before he began court. He finally had to retire, because he couldn't lose an election.

What has she done that is so bad? Legit question: I don't get home until just before 6 anymore, so I haven't really watched the whole show in quite some time. Can't imagine that what she did was comparable with our gun-toter, but he was within his legal right to do so, so what is to punish?
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Well, what you explain...
Predator106 1st Sep 2008
Is perfectly within his legal right. What she has done-and is doing-goes against the constitution, making a mockery of the legal system. I forget what to actually name off, it wasn't extremely serious, but it was disrespectful and often undermining an attendee, calling them stupid or ignorant, which is clearly going beyond the protective umbrella that freedom of speech grants.
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
Chas4 7th Aug 2008
In California, if you do not supervise or manage other employees, then you are considered to be either an exempt or non-exempt employee based on the wage per hour which is currently in the neighborhood of $90/hr (I think). If you make more than that then you are not eligible for overtime. If you make less then you are.

No matter what, you are entitled to a break every so often (I'd have to check what the deal is currently) and you are entitled to a meal break (paid) if you work more than 8 hours.

So if Apple failed to abide by these rules, they can be sued. They are not the first company to be so sued, nor will they be the last.

The 'slavery' part is a bit over the top though.
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Apple is just another big corporation...
BillDem 7th Aug 2008
Calling somebody a "manager" to get around paying them overtime and then working them lots of extra hours is just one more way these big corporations stretch the laws to make more profit. It seems fraudulent to me, but tons of companies do it. Then again, that doesn't make it right.

If nothing else, I hope this guy hits Apple hard enough that other tech companies take notice and change their ways. More power to him.
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Really?
laura.b 7th Aug 2008
Would you have put up with it for 12 years?

You don't see that as even a little unreasonable? One year, sure. And if they broke the law, then they should be punished accordingly. But 12? Come on. IF it's true, then this guy is a serious masochist. But I think I'm calling his extreme exaggeration early on this one. I seriously doubt anyone would tolerate those conditions (as he described them) for over a decade only to sue now.
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Frog soup, anyone?
wolf_z 8th Aug 2008
Well, I can't say one way or the other if he's telling the truth.

But one plausible scenario is the overtime and such was piled on gradually over time.

You dump a frog in boiling water, it's going to jump out. You start with cold water and gently raise the heat and it's frog soup.

It's another variation of the slippery slope argument.

Oh, and a final point. Indentured servitude is not slavery. An indentured servant *agrees* to be bound to service for a fixed length of time, usually to pay off a debt. They typically had far more rights than slaves too.

A slave is trapped forever, with *NO* rights.

The closest modern equivalent to indentured servitude is military service. Once in, you can't get out. You have to serve your time, and they can put you in situations where your life is in jepardy, you have few rights, and you can be killed for (severe) disobedience.

But--and this is the important part--*you agreed*. You volunteered. And the term is limited, typically 2 years.

Of course if anybody but but the government tried this, they'd be executed for crimes against humanity... happy
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Even so
laura.b Updated - 8th Aug 2008
Even if they piled it on over time, this guy was employed as a "network engineer" and in, I believe it was, 2005, anyone in the tech business in California with the word "engineer" in their title was required to be salary. Salary employees don't get overtime. But, he had worked for them for 10 years at that time. If it only happened in the last 2 years, he has no leg to stand on. If it had been happening up to that point, who in their right mind would put up with it?

No matter how you look at it, it's pretty plainly ridiculous.

Even if it did gradually build, it's extremely difficult to imagine that it took 12 years until all of a sudden this guy realized he was a "slave."
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"Managers" versus "Professionals"
Rick_R 7th Aug 2008
I don't know about California STATE law but under FEDERAL law (Wages and Hours Act), there are four basic groups not subject to overtime laws. One is managers, but another is professionals. The Labor Department considers "professional" to be any type of job where a 4-year college degree is USUALLY required by employers. Electronic TECHNICIANS (I used to be one) do not come under "professional" but engineers normally would. (I don't know whether CODERS would be considered "professional", since many companies do not require a 4-year degree for such positions.)
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All corporations do this... obviously not all to the same extent though.
Been_Done_Before 7th Aug 2008
Leave the company if you dont like it. I never get why people sue, unless it breaks the law, you bring it to their attention and they dont correct it.

Part of the reason i refuse to be salary unless i get 8 weeks vacation.
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No comp time?
laura.b 7th Aug 2008
Most places I know of that don't usually do overtime comp extra vacation time when overtime is worked, at least in my industry.

I'm an accountant, and overtime is really common, especially during tax season. For that matter, we have mandatory 50 hour minimum weeks starting the first week of February (by April, we are usually working 60+). Instead of overtime, we comp the first 80 hours OT worked into an additional 2 weeks vacation on top of the 2 weeks we already get. Because our firm placed a limit on the vacation hours comped, they pay us an equivalent OT rate after we've reached our additional 80 hour limit (for example, if we make $50,000/year, then our OT rate would be (50,000/2,000)*1.5 : (salary/hours worked during the year)*OT rate of time-and-a-half).
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
smartnet 7th Aug 2008
When I get rid of these guys due to poor performance I do it with no notice, otherwise I am paying for yet another back injury. sounds like another whiner out for the cash grab.

Doug D
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
smartnet 7th Aug 2008
When I want to dismiss a poor performer or complainer I do it with no notice, otherwise I would have to pay for back yet another ficticious back injury.
Sounds like another whiner out for the cash grab.
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
Loverock Davidson 7th Aug 2008
And reasons like this make me happy I didn't get the job at Apple store on 5th ave. happy
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A reckon Apple is pretty happy too (nt)
A Grain of Salt 7th Aug 2008
nt
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
tiffdanyell77 7th Aug 2008
I feel like he has every right to sue. No matter how much the workers were getting paid, if they were required to work more than their 40 hrs. they should have got overtime pay peroid!!!! It does not matter if they stayed at the company and endured this mistreatment of their employees they deserve to be paid for their time. Apple trying to cover their mistakes by saying they were in management shows they knew they were wrong. It is slavery? No! It is a volation of their rights? Yes. They have every right to sue because they are indeed entitled to their overtime pay.
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12 years, man
laura.b 7th Aug 2008
That's how long he "suffered."

He should have quit 11 years and 11 months ago. Then if he wanted to sue, go ahead. Doesn't seem like he was so miserable, though, to hang on to it for over a decade, does it?
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2 months.
A Grain of Salt 7th Aug 2008
I had a job for 2 months where the boss wasn't paying me
my full entitlements for overtime and weekend penalty
rates. I approached him and asked if this was going to
change, he said no. I said good bye and left.

12 years. This guy is a moron. I hope he gets beaten and
hit with court costs for paramount stupidity. Or else he is
just out for a money grab, in which case I definitely hope
he goes down big time..

That said, Apple should be paying the appropriate rates by
law and anyone who is currently working there, who is not
being paid properly, should be complaining strongly.
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
maj4045 7th Aug 2008
Whoa . . . when and if any teachers get a load of this, there will be lawsuits galore. These are the very conditions under which they work every day. Of course, you could argue that summers off make up for it, but then who could afford not to have a second job in summer just to make ends meet.

Personally I think we need legislation to proclaim four-day work weeks, with paid three-week minimum vacations. What say??
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
THX 1138 9th Aug 2008
Don't you think that someone would notice that what they expect to earn does not match with their paycheque?? I know down to the dollar what I expect my gross income to be and an approximate idea of the net. 12 years without questioning is either downright stupid or complaining after the fact.
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RE: Apple sued for ... slavery?!?!!
Jim888 9th Aug 2008
A Major tech company just lost one like this. They owed backpay for the time they required out of hours support and a re-classification of employees from management to hourly.

Result... cut employees pay by 15% with the indicator of OT to make up the difference. Then cut OT out completely. What a deal for employees. That is a relatively large number of well paided IT folks that lost 15% in wages. They will not be buying Fords or PCs anytime soon... so who will be?

For the free marketeers out there, look at the economy. 2/3 is buying and selling to ourselves. If we allow companies to drive down labor comparing US costs to 3rd world countries we will be sinking our own ship.

Find another job? Sure - dead easy - McDonalds is hiring until we can no longer afford french fries. Adrian - when folks no longer buy new "kit" do you make enough blogging to continue your life style? I think not.

This one person may be silly to some - but it will happen to all of us if we do not wake up and smell the coffee (if we can afford it).

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