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Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Does Google need Mozilla?

By | December 5, 2011, 6:19am PST

Summary: Does Google need to hand over millions of dollars to Mozilla in order to be Firefox’s default search engine?

Is Google’s search deal with Mozilla over? According to some reports, Mozilla has declined to comment, according to others, the deal is still on. But a more important question is this one - Does Google need Mozilla?

It’s clear that Mozilla needs Google. Back in 2010 a whopping 84% of Mozilla’s $123.2 million revenue came from Google. Without the Google deal, it’s hard to see how Mozilla could survive.

But does Google need Mozilla? More specifically, does Google need to hand over millions of dollars to Mozilla in order to be Firefox’s default search engine?

I don’t think so. Here are just a few reasons why:

When Firefox first came on the scene, its USP (Unique Selling Point) was that it was fast, lightweight and secure. However, over the years I’ve watched as the browser became bloated and encumbered with features that people don’t really want. I’ve seen memory leak issues go unresolved months, sometimes years (some people still claim the browser has serious memory leaks). And when it comes to security, well, you’re probably just as safe sticking to Internet Explorer (8 or 9) or going with Chrome.

It seems to me that Mozilla has steered Firefox into irrelevance.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
Sb1 6th Dec
@PB_z

Wow, I never knew this.

Firefox rules when it comes to __usable__ extensions. It is so much easier to lock down from a security standpoint. Easy to use TOR and I2P with it, well haven't used I2P since FF 3.6 but don't see why it'd be any different with FF 8+. TOR even rolls there own Firefox browser with TOR and HTTPS Everywhere built in. Also Firefox's bookmarks are really nice to work with. I have over 3,000 and everything runs fine on my Win7 x64 PC.
I also use Sandboxie for Firefox, I actually install a separate Firefox so I can have two different Firefox's running at the same time. Also created a separate Sandbox for the Aurora channel ones, rarely use but just curios what things they've changed. I tried installing Chrome to Sandboxie 9-12 months ago and it wouldn't let me. Yes I know Chrome has a sandbox within it, but if it was so great why do they need to update the security things all the time.

I have Chrome on my PC, but I'm hesitant to use it because of all the tracking that it does, after I do I run CCleaner right away. With Win7 x64, newer install, Chrome shows up with many, many processes, all separate so it's really hard to tell how much RAM it really uses. It also crashes a fair amount. However after reading your post I am only interested in SRWare Iron if I'm going to use a Chromium product.

If anyone wants to read up on the Memory issues and how their being addressed (yes they have problems, FF 4-7 were bad on this issue IMHO) I recommend reading this Mozilla Blog: https://blog.mozilla.com/nnethercote/
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Does Google Need Mozilla
Sam1jere Updated - 5th Dec
Let me admit I'd just die inside if the Firefox was to go the way of the dinosaurs and Netscape. This is one tremendous project.

What I'm unsure about is if Mozilla will survive sans Google. Is Bing and Microsoft really on the way up, or is this alliance just staving off inevitable death? It's hard to tell at present. One of the key things I see as a layman is a loyal community has kept Firefox going. Question is, for how long?

Over USD 100 million in lost revenue is a lot of moolah, especially seeing that Google seems the major contributor to Mozilla's coffers. I'm saddened while reading this by the day. I hope it doesn't make me turn fully to Google with it's frequent shockwave crashes and little or no choice (back to Internet Explorer dark ages).

A really sad read for this lay user of open source.
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If Opera has managed to survive thus far, I don't see Mozilla dissappearing entirely. But Chrome has certainly made Mozilla a less crticial piece of software than it used to be.
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@dsf3g People forget Opera has corporate deals with Ford, Nintendo and they do other work for revenue. Mozilla unfortunately tries to go the open source way and does not have that many revenue options. If Google drops its relationship with Mozilla I think you will see mass layoffs and reduced developement.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
Rabid Howler Monkey 5th Dec
Just remember that the Firefox browser market share is still approx. 20-25%, depending on where one gets their stats. This represents a TON of users to reach with one's search engine and serve ads to.
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Need? No. Want? Yes.
CFWhitman Updated - 5th Dec
Does Google need Mozilla? No, and they never really did. However, that doesn't mean that maintaining their relationship with Mozilla is a bad idea. Firefox may not be on the rise that it once was, but it is still a significant part of the browser landscape.

I use several browsers somewhat regularly (including Chromium, Arora, and Midori), but on up to date hardware, I still find myself using Firefox (8.0) the most. I've never been thrilled with Internet Explorer, and never really used it regularly (I went straight from Netscape to Mozilla 0.8.x; besides there's no IE for Linux). Chromium does some things better than Firefox (runs Youtube a little better on low spec hardware), but there are still things I like better about Firefox as well (doesn't use as many resources for additional tabs, searches on "/", still renders more sites properly).
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
cameigons Updated - 6th Dec
It's blatant that Google does not need Mozilla. But I really hope Firefox survives and without selling out to anyone.

Chrome is awesome in a number of things. But I prefer Firefox's philosophy. Security for example, it's very hard to be anonymous using Chrome, they're unwilling to hand to end users the ability to not be under the radar of devices that need your info to provide you with ads.
Example, you might have heard of Ghostery, Adrian. Well I may be wrong on this, but strangely I've been having a hard time blocking Google Adsense and even Twitter Button, among others with Ghostery on Chrome, while on Firefox everything still works as it always has.
Extensions such as "HTTPS Everywhere" have no counterpart on Chrome. "Noscript" doesn't work as well. Etc.

I hope the guys at Mozilla will come with some ingenious campaign to raise money, because we need them.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
j28n Updated - 5th Dec
@cameigons You are absolutely correct. When used with the correct add-ons, Firefox is the hands-down winner when it comes to security. I will not change. I am an admin for 3 websites, and my analytics data shows about 40% share for Firefox, 45% share for IE and 5% share for Chrome. My websites are more Business to Business oriented, so my visitors are more on the professional side. For the data shown in this article to be true, Chrome must be huge with the consumer market.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
audidiablo 6th Dec
@j28n Agreed. I use Firefox/Aurora/Nightly and love the fact I don't have to worry about any sneaky phone home crap like you would with Google. I've told friends not to use Chrome unless they want malware and sure enough 2 friends of mine were dumb enough and picked up malware within 1 day of use. Getting them fixed and back on Firefox they've had no trouble since. There is a reason people recommend me is that I do what most other people in the IT industry can't... Think for themselves. I don't like Google's practices nor how they create their "software" although it usually is a cheap Hong Kong knock off of some real software that took years to develop. The fact everything they make is open and built to phone home makes it just that much easier for tech savvy to take advantage of stupid people. I look for a nice lean computer with no bloat nor crapware, all free solutions that pretty much take care of themselves where the user has little to no interaction with maintenance. Too bad so many people fall for the Google Chrome scam. Firefox will likely get support moving forward from Microsoft and Bing. They give them cupcakes all the time why the hell not? At least they can trust MS more then Google pretending to be friend and in the end be foe. Make their own browser with tech from some Mozilla employees and others only to rise up and drop Mozilla... F-Google. GFail I say.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
ff2 Updated - 5th Dec
It's obvious that even though the deal is on with Mozilla, but it will not be renewed. That means: Google still pays Mozilla and does not dissolve the partnership, but it won't commit to do so for another 3 years (or for any fixed period of the time, for that matter), like it did the previous times.



Letting Mozilla completely down is not in the interest of Google, as that would force most now-Firefox-users to abandon Firefox - as the latter would begin to lag behind its comptetitors even more so than it does now -, and would force them to chose another browser instead. And that browser now could be just as well IE - so Google could practically drive market share to Microsoft this way.

Also, dropping support of Mozilla would also mean that Mozilla itself would also need to look for a new source of income - and Bing!, there comes Microsoft again in the picture as the most obvious one for that role. Which would not only mean that Microsoft would get indirect influence over Mozilla/Firefox, but also that Google would lose search market share to Bing/Microsoft - since the latter would obviously replace Google as the default start page and search engine in Firefox.

Both of these consequences are the last thing that Google needs, because that would mean Microsoft gaining influence over the web, again.
And that would cost Google far more than those few dozens or even hundred million dollars he's spending on Firefox right now. Not that he'd lose money on that anyway, as that money is just a share of ad revenue, which Google also makes money on/with.

So, Google's interest is still keeping Mozilla fed, at least to the point where it doesn't need to look for someone else. He can still drop support completely when Mozilla and Firefox with their ever shrinking market share become totally irrelevant in a few years.
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@ff2 I agree, it is in google's interest to shrink IE usage. The last thing google wants is for IE to become the monopoly browser again. That would give microsoft the ability to build something into IE that would slow or cripple google docs, google searches etc.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
edkollin Updated - 5th Dec
Back to almost seamless 3.6 from from plug-in,flash whatever 8.0.1 related issues that cause freezes, delays loading pages. Second time I had to go back to 3.6 due to these issues. Will stay with 3.6 until after holidays because family likes Firefox then it is Chrome experiment for me (unless Firefox "nags" me to much to upgrade then I will just go). I see these issues on my home(Vista), work(XP) computers and a computer at a SONY store(7 I presume). SONY store computer had option for Firefox and Chrome. Some pages I use problematic on Firefox, great on Chrome at that store.
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Until about 5 years ago, Google wasn't just Firefox's primary financial sponsor, they also had a number of employees whose sole job was to work on Firefox. 5 years ago, those people stopped working on it. We now know that they went to go start work on Chrome, which would not only compete with Firefox, but to add insult to injury, was not even based on the Gecko codebase!

Firefox -- and all serious Firefox supporters -- should feel betrayed by Google and stay as far away from them and Chrome as they can.
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@PB_z I didn't know there was such a thing as a serious Firefox supporter. (Mozilla is not Apple.) Myself, I try to use whatever works. I haven't quite warmed to Chrome yet, so I'm still mostly a Firefox user. Next week? Who knows.
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@PB_z

Wow, I never knew this.

Firefox rules when it comes to __usable__ extensions. It is so much easier to lock down from a security standpoint. Easy to use TOR and I2P with it, well haven't used I2P since FF 3.6 but don't see why it'd be any different with FF 8+. TOR even rolls there own Firefox browser with TOR and HTTPS Everywhere built in. Also Firefox's bookmarks are really nice to work with. I have over 3,000 and everything runs fine on my Win7 x64 PC.
I also use Sandboxie for Firefox, I actually install a separate Firefox so I can have two different Firefox's running at the same time. Also created a separate Sandbox for the Aurora channel ones, rarely use but just curios what things they've changed. I tried installing Chrome to Sandboxie 9-12 months ago and it wouldn't let me. Yes I know Chrome has a sandbox within it, but if it was so great why do they need to update the security things all the time.

I have Chrome on my PC, but I'm hesitant to use it because of all the tracking that it does, after I do I run CCleaner right away. With Win7 x64, newer install, Chrome shows up with many, many processes, all separate so it's really hard to tell how much RAM it really uses. It also crashes a fair amount. However after reading your post I am only interested in SRWare Iron if I'm going to use a Chromium product.

If anyone wants to read up on the Memory issues and how their being addressed (yes they have problems, FF 4-7 were bad on this issue IMHO) I recommend reading this Mozilla Blog: https://blog.mozilla.com/nnethercote/
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As long as I am free to choose which search engine I use, and I???m not forced to use one, I am fine with that.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
Loverock Davidson- 5th Dec
Google doesn't need Mozilla just like Mozilla doesn't need Google. I explained before, Firefox came about because people wanted to clean up the netscape code and make a better browser. Firefox still offers an advantage over Chrome and that is extensions. Chrome has some extensions but not nearly as many or of the same quality that you will find in Firefox. That's why I continue to use and support Firefox.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
ff2 Updated - 5th Dec
@Loverock Davidson- Outside a niche market (ie. people who think of themselves as power users, even though they mostly aren't that much those) nobody really cares about most extensions. That's why IE still has double the market share of FF+Chrome all together, and that's why Chrome is coming up, while Firefox is constantly declining.

Also, if people would really care about extensions, they would just be simply created for IE and Chrome, too. IE supported extensions far before FF did (and you can run even most decade old IE extensions on the newest IE version, which doesn't hold true for FF, not even between versions just months away from each other), and it simply doesn't need extensions for most things, because it can handle those themselves (for ex. IE9 includes a fully fledged ad blocker comparable to AdBlock Plus). Chrome has extension support for a while now, too.

Fact is: most people (whether home or professional users) just couldn't care less about extensions, but have other priorities, which FF obviously fails to meet.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
gorash0 Updated - 5th Dec
@ff2 That has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard, for one thing Chrome and FF shares are both at around 25% while IE is at around 40%, so FF and Chrome put together is actually more than IE so you're wrong.

"IE still has double the market share of FF+Chrome all together" Seriously? When was this, 2008? Get with the program already.

Even in 2008, FF had 30% market share and IE 65% and Chrome 2%. FF has managed a steady ~25% market share all these years, while IE has lost 25% in just 3 years. Chrome has gained mostly at the expense of IE, FF has lost only about 5% since Chrome.

Also, 85% of Firefox users use add-ons, so again you are wrong that "only a niche market" cares about extensions.

IE has actually declined from 90% market share to 40%, that's pretty significant. And we all know that the only reason people use IE is because it's the default browser for the OS. And while FF is declining, IE has declined even faster and further.

Fact is: You pull imaginary statistics from your @$$ and you have no idea what the crap you're talking about.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
benched42 5th Dec
@ff2

Extensions are the very reason to use Firefox over other browsers. Every web developer in our enterprise has Firefox with several developer extensions. I use Firefox with seven extensions. NONE are offered in Internet Explorer. Period.

Also, if you think that the ad blocker in IE9 is even on the same playing field of AdBlock Plus, you obviously haven't used AdBlock Plus. I use IE9 at work and am well aware of its "capabilities". Extensions are virtually non-existent. The reason is that Microsoft wants it that way.

And Chrome's version of AdBlock? PATHETIC. It blocks about the same as IE9's built-in ad blocker. There are quite a few extensions for Chrome, but not near as many as Firefox.

Extensions are why I use Firefox. And even if they lose Google as a partner, I will continue to use Firefox. I've been using it since it was called Phoenix, and it continues to improve with each release.
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You're missing the point
eMJayy 5th Dec
Yes, Chrome has surged recently to become the second most used browser globally. But as usual, you bloggers don't look at the more detailed picture before jumping to your conclusions.

Being popular 'globally' doesn't actually mean that you're equally popular everywhere. Sure, Chrome's popular 'globally' to the extent that it's now become the second most used browser if you look at the overall stats, but Firefox is still the most popular browser in many countries. And in many of those countries, IE is still more popular than Chrome. THAT'S why Google still needs Firefox.

Take a look at browser stats for Russia, for example. Firefox is the most popular browser in Russia, followed by Opera, followed by Chrome. Take a look at African countries. Firefox is the leading browser in most African countries, followed by IE (in fact, Firefox is the most popular browser in the entire African continent - and Chrome's NOT even in second place there). And in most of those developing countries that have adopted Chrome as their leading browser, Firefox is holding on very well to its second place spot, losing very little share as Chrome decimates IE usage. It's IE that is feeling the real pain.

The real reason why Chrome has taken Firefox's spot is that there's been a surge in Chrome use in select geographic regions in the developing world. In particular, South America and the Caribbean have massively adopted Chrome this year, thanks in part to all those YouTube ads promoting the browser. Chrome has one killer feature for the developing world that the other browsers lack by default - the ability to automatically translate foreign language web pages into a users spoken language. Add that to the fact that it runs better on the low end PC hardware that's coupled with Windows 7 Starter and Basic editions currently being widely sold in all developing nations and you've got a persuasive argument to try the browser.

Firefox isn't irrelevant to Google or anyone else simply because it's now got a number 3 position. Haven't you noticed that Opera also has a deal with Google despite not having as much as 3 percent of the global market? Both Opera and Firefox have market presence in certain countries that Google needs access to. As much as you want to believe it, it's not a Google vs Bing world out there. Bing's already irrelevant to almost everyone living outside the US. Instead, Google's main opponents out there are local companies which dominate in their countries. That's where access to these other browsers help Google the most.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
clixandru@... 5th Dec
I think Firefox is a better choice any day.
I agree that Chrome is slightly better but not enough. Both on my Mac and on a quad core high end PC with 8 Gb RAM Chrome manages to use most of the CPU. In comparison, FF is a lot better and does not crash regularly from Flash issues.
And btw, FF has lots of plugins in comparison with Chrome.
I will continue using Firefox without a problem.
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I'm not sure they need Mozilla
thx-1138_@... Updated - 6th Dec
... but Google would be wise not to cast them aside like refuse. That will be a snub one of OSS's brightest and most distinguished stars would never forget.

I believe there is large support base for Firefox that would not forgive Google for putting the proverbial knife in - that alone should give Google pause. (Well, that and the obvious fact they'd be killing a huge exposure surface in that FF user-base).
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Shooting in the foot
Gisabun 5th Dec
Stange bedfellows. Google paying Mozilla to make Google search engine the default search engine in Firefox.
Sort of like Apple selling Windows at the Apple store.
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Until about 5 years ago, Google wasn't just Firefox's primary financial sponsor, they also had a number of employees whose sole job was to work on Firefox. 5 years ago, those people stopped working on it. We now know that they went to go start work on Chrome, which would not only compete with Firefox, but to add insult to injury, was not even based on the Gecko codebase!

Firefox -- and all serious Firefox supporters -- should feel betrayed by Google and stay as far away from them and Chrome as they can.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
Mark Codling 6th Dec
there are other search engines ? wink
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I like Firefox and it has pushed browsers to better levels. Its great to still see that independent spirit with Mozilla. But relying on Google mostly for revenue was dumb on Mozilla's part. Just as they seem to have alienated some of their user base with their change in upgrade schedules. I feel sorry for Mozilla because it never realized that open source still needs a commercial revenue base to function. Open source is a good ideal but it still needs a revenue source. Some of the most successful open source projects have been backed by corporate business. Sorry to say if Google even reduces their participation with Mozilla. I suspect Firefox will slowly fade away without other revenue. I doubt Microsoft would help with Bing, but it is possible. I think to Mozilla a deal with Microsoft would be like sleeping with the enemy. Can't say Google is much better though. As Chrome has pretty much been the demise of Firefox. All I can say is Good Luck!
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
bb_apptix 6th Dec
Mozilla doesn't steal your data for personal gain the way Google does.
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I have Firefox 9 installed on two of my computers, and for most things it works fine. It still has the jumpy video unless you go to full screen when it works OK. I like the bookmarks application. I have hundreds of bookmarks on my computer and most of them are fairly easy to get to. I also use a tremendous amount of add ons. Internet Explorer 9 seems pretty bland to me. I have tried Google Chrome and not too impressed. Casual users may be impressed, but I was not, so have not had a copy on my computer for a long time. I use FF 9 and TB 8 on my computers, and am really happy with my experience on these two products. Google is the best search engine in my experience, but they should be wary about losing first place in being the preferred search engine in Firefox.
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The principle reason to keep Firefox is, as has been mentioned above, security. All Google apps and services are spyware. That is how Google makes its money. So, those using Chrome are giving their lives to Google in the vain hope that it will be kept private. Just wait until one Google employee realises how many millions he can make by selling a CD rom full of private information on a few million of the billions of user profiles that Google stores. Then the panic will ensue.

I know there is Chromium, but there are many extensions on Firefox that are useful and which do not exist for Chromium.

I am writing this on Firefox 8.01, on a Mac, with over 2000 tabs open. Sounds ridiculous. It is. But stuff accumulates. In any case, though it does take a while to load, it is stable and works fine. 'nough said. Don't try this on a Windows machine. Even Firefox becomes unstable when you get towards 200 tabs on Windows.
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"# Firefox has a massive image problem with users that it can???t seem to fix. Mozilla might be giving Firefox 3.6 users a nudge towards Firefox 8, a large group of users are resisting making the jump to the latest browser."

--That is because 3.6 is perfectly fine, does what is needed, and FF users are not the sort who lemmingly stampede to the latest item.

"# Google never had that much of a problem getting Internet Explorer users to make Google their default search engine. I can???t see why persuading Firefox users to make an organic choice to use Google would be that hard."

--Because Chrome is spyware, produced by a company that makes its $ from information and ads. Might as well just install 'comet cursor'! M$-IE users might be unconcerned with spying or BB, or might see that Chrome is better than IE, but FF users like FF because it gives the user control of information, not the other way around.
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Google's reach and knowledge about each of us scares me too much to use Chrome ( or have an Android tablet or phone ), I just don't want them knowing everything about me. Therefore I stick with FF, which BTW I never have page loading issues with FF, so not sure what problems others have.
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please tell me where you all get your info i know of 500 people or more that use firefox 8 and love
I'm still a Firefox user and like it, though I still have doubts about having switched from 3.6. But distributing it with Google as the default search engine doesn't mean much. Anyone able to figure out how to download and install an alternative browser can do the same for their primary search engine.
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In one word,NO.
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RE: Does Google need Mozilla?
rphunter42 6th Dec
Perhaps the real question is why are media types bashing Firefox so much lately? It gets faster each release. It is including new features each release. It still has more extensions than any other browser. It continues to give security its constant attention. It is concentrating on reducing memory use, even in the face of ever increasing amounts of memory built into everything, from refrigerators, to phones, with new computers having minimum of 4GB of RAM. A real bonanza for those of us who started on computers with only 16k! Does this memory use REALLY matter any more than which browser can run some skillfully configured benchmark designed to make ONE browser look good? I say NO.

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