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Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Friday Rant: Why does Windows still place so much importance on filenames?

By | February 4, 2011, 11:30am PST

The title says it all really. Why is it that Windows still place so much importance on filenames.

Take the following example - sorting out digital snaps. These are usually automatically given daft filenames such as IMG00032.JPG at the time they are stored by the camera. In an ideal world you’d only ever have one IMG00032.JPG on your entire system, but the world is far from perfect. Your camera might decide to restart its numbering system, or you might have two cameras using the same naming format. What happens then?

Well, you’re then down to using other information such as date modified, file size and so on … but this means that if you’re carrying out an operating such as a mass file consolidation and putting all your photos in one place, then you’re having to decide on the spot, based on information given to you in a dialog box, whether a file that you’re copying/moving to a particular location is the same as a file that’s already there? If there’s only one duplicate it’s not too bad, if you have dozens, it becomes a major pain in the rear.

Why? Why is the filename the deciding factor? Why not something more unique? Something like a checksum? This way the operating system could decide is two files really are identical or not, and replace the file if it’s a copy, or create a copy if they are different. This would save time, and dramatically reduce the likelihood of data loss through overwriting.

Here’s an example. I might have two files in separate folders called recipe.txt, but one is a recipe for a pumpkin pie, and the other for apple pie. OK, it was dumb of me to give the files the same name, but it’s in situations like this that the OS should be helping me, not hindering me and making me pay for my stupidity. After all, Windows knows, without asking me, that the files, even if they are the same size and created at exactly the same time, are different. Why does Windows need to ask me what to do? Sure, it doesn’t solve all problems, but it’s a far better solution than clinging to the notion of filenames as being the best metric by which to judge whether files are identical or not.

Come on Microsoft, give us an operating system that’s capable of handling files intelligently.

Note: By the way, the “why?” is a rhetorical question - the reason is legacy.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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Looks like @John Zern just can't get beyond 1999 technology
search & destroy 8th Feb 2011
Since you can't come up with anything to refute my point.

Maybe a Linux-like, journaled file system should be in the works.

Nahhh, they'd never go for it. The only change they seem to be into is in making Win7 look as much like OSX as they possibly can.
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Isn't that the point of indexing?
olePigeon 4th Feb 2011
Isn't that the point of indexing? I'm not sure how Windows does it, but on OS X it indexes the content of a file (if it's text) or the XML data if a picture. If you have more than one file with the same name, you can preview the content to make sure it's the correct file.
@olePigeon
Get over yourself. Windows 7 is superior to OS X in every way.
@Droid101
Windows 7 is INFERIOR to OS X en every way.

Fixed it for you.
  • Flagged
@Droid101

Including the production of trolls. Way to go.
@Droid101
Every way? I really like that astronomy picture. Not entering all those digits at activation is nice. I kinda like ssh and the bash shell. I can figure out how to change the audio input. Not having a registry seems to make things less complex.

But we've lost the plot here, haven't we.

A wiser response would be that while OS X has creator codes and also has a preview mode, and a better soft linking mechanism, the file name is more important than a user may wish for, inasmuch as the path + filename is a unique identifier in the tree data structure that is the file system.

While two files with different contents and the same name should be distinguishable to the os and I suppose two files with the same contents and different names should be master-and-aliased to save space, I wonder if this wouldn't, as a practical matter, cause more problems for the humans than the machines.
@Droid101

OS X is still lipstick on a pig. Linux is a piglet without the lipstick wink
  • Flagged
OS X is still lipstick on a pig. Linux is a piglet without the lipstick

While @tonymcs@... is a horses_ass

lol...
  • Flagged
Tony,
Why is so hard for your childish mine to understand that folks believe that Apple and Linux are superior.
Move on Tony.
subtle changes that would take careful examination to determine if two files are the same. Why make a human being do something that a computer can do easily??
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Just Like Linux does it?
John Zern 4th Feb 2011
@DonnieBoy
NT.
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@olePigeon And the version in Win7 is very powerful.

And most pictures don't have 'XML data'.
Looks like AKH is on a crusade against Microsoft. You have to go back 34 days to find a negative post about Apple; but tons of FUD on Android, Chrome, and Microsoft.

Oh, and outside of the "Best Kit List" and that post about batteries that was utterly devoid of any interesting information, this blog has become Software 2.0, exit Hardware 2.0.

That's it AKH. After following you for years, I've had enough. I'm ditching your feed. I'm sure I'm not the only one to jump ship lately, but it will be more than offset by the tons of Apple fans who are following you in increasingly large numbers.

Goodbye, and good luck.
issues. He is right on here, the OS should tell you the two files are the same or not. Now, Linux also has the same problem as far as I know.
@DonnieBoy I'm not attacking his intelligence, and yes he has a point here, and yes he can write about software. But that's all he does now, except forwarding us GPU manufacturers' press releases. He is also firing at any targetrs that moves, excepts when it's Apple. I've had enough; if you haven't, keep following him. Today is my last day.
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I think the problem is
Michael Alan Goff 4th Feb 2011
This is the Hardware 2.0 Blog.

It should be vaguely relevant to software.
He also knows a thing or two about software. Give it a freaking break!!!!!
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Well, yes and no.
Michael Alan Goff 4th Feb 2011
This is his job. Imagine it this way, Donnie: You work at Ford and what your job title says is that you put in windshields. According to your logic, you should be able to just put in any part of a car that you want to.

It doesn't work that way.
hardware somehow. But, if he runs into interesting things that are purely software, HE WILL WRITE ABOUT IT. Now, I suppose he could do like some of the others and write for more than one blog, but, that is not his style. In any case you can bet he will continue to write about pure software at times.
@DonnieBoy, Yes - identical problem is found in all Linux/UNIX variants. It isn't so likely to be a pain there though, as a typical response would be to devise a little renaming script - it need only be a few lines. Windows people don't tend to have this initiative.
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If he wants to write about software
Michael Alan Goff 5th Feb 2011
Rename his blog's title.

At this point his job is to write blogs pertaining to hardware. Why do I say this? Because he's writing blogs for a blog called Hardware 2.0.

So, no, he really shouldn't be writing about whatever he feels like at the time. These people get paychecks for doing this sort of thing, Donnie, and I expect some sense of professionalism.
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And yet
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 4th Feb 2011
@LB75... you will be here next time going on your rant about Adrian.
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They're not far off....
crazydanr@... Updated - 4th Feb 2011
The server they created years ago for storing MS Office files had just this feature - folders with customizeable metadata. You could create as many different fields of data for each folder, and even give them a data type. By having a datatype, you could perform the correct sort and filter options on all these files, as well as create saved views based on all this. Of course, the document and all the metadata was saved in a database and indexed, so it was easy to search on.

I'd be surprised if we don't see this functionality included in the not too distant future, but you would need a filesystem capable of handling all this additional data. But don't think they're not on it, I'd be willing to bet it's further along than you think.
Cause Windows has no good way with dealing with metadata at the filesystem level. OS X (And Linux, IIRC) supports Metadata.

With OS X I can easily search for files that have attributes (say all D300 pictures). With Windows good luck.
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Some questions
crazydanr@... 4th Feb 2011
@itguy08

Haven't used Linux in 5-6 years, so my knowledge is out of date...

Can you define your own metadata (attributes?) And can you give it data types?

So if I have a folder, I can give it several "columns" of additional information and will be able to sort/filter on it?

I would be highly impressed if the filesystem could handle this. Any specific distro I should look at?
@crazydanr@...
Wikipedia

In Linux, the ext2, ext3, ext4, JFS, ReiserFS, XFS and Btrfs filesystems support extended attributes (abbreviated xattr) if the libattr feature is enabled in the kernel configuration. Any regular file may have a list of extended attributes. Each attribute is denoted by a name and the associated data. The name must be a null-terminated string, and must be prefixed by a namespace identifier and a dot character. Currently, four namespaces exist: user, trusted, security and system. The user namespace has no restrictions with regard to naming or contents. The system namespace is primarily used by the kernel for access control lists. The security namespace is used by SELinux, for example.

Extended attributes are not widely used in user-space programs in Linux, although they are supported in the 2.6[1] and later versions of the kernel. Beagle does use extended attributes, and freedesktop.org publishes recommendations for their use.
@itguy08,
"With OS X I can easily search for files that have attributes (say all D300 pictures). With Windows good luck."

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can do exactly the same with my Windows 7 notebook.
@dvm
Exactly. itguy is a clueless anti-Windows troll. He doesn't know anything about Windows 7 because he's never used it.
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I use both
jacarter3 4th Feb 2011
@dvm

The point made by Adrian is that your very same D300 may reset its numbering sequence. Good luck with Windows then.

It'd not about having a feature. It's about how powerful that feature is and how much it saves the user time. Windows excels at wasting the user's time.

Flame on!
Exactly. itguy is a clueless anti-Windows troll. He doesn't know anything about Windows 7 because he's never used it.

@Droid101 - Well I've used it and I'm still wondering why Windoze drives still need to be de-fragged while Apple and Linux drives don't.

It's 2011, fer Christ's sake. Time to modernize NTFS.
@dvm Can you still do it if you save the files WITHOUT extensions?

Edit, the reason being is the OS should be able to recognize what a file is based on the data it contains, like Linux and OSX do.

Although it can be annoying such as being able to play half finished torrent files, for example.
@jacarter3,
I think I understand the point you bring, and at the same time I'm not sure if you have used Windows 7+Windows Live Photo. Every time I connect a camera or try to transfer photos from a storage device, it asks me to enter metadata that will help search the pictures later. So I don't have to know the filename to find the pictures I want. Plus I can apply metadata to other type of documents. How is this feature a waste of user time, like you mention?
@alsobannedfromzdnet,
"Can you still do it if you save the files WITHOUT extensions?"

Not yet. BTW, what is the relevance with the main point?
@S&D

File fragmentation has what to do with the file implementation? Also, how would you fix the problem? Go on, tell us.
@goff256
Ummmm, wait, wait, don't tell me....
Ummmm- like in Linux?
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How stupid are you?
@alsobannedfromzdnet,
"Edit, the reason being is the OS should be able to recognize what a file is based on the data it contains, like Linux and OSX do."

What would be the benefit of the Mac OS X / Linux way vs the Windows way?
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Since you can't come up with anything to refute my point.

Maybe a Linux-like, journaled file system should be in the works.

Nahhh, they'd never go for it. The only change they seem to be into is in making Win7 look as much like OSX as they possibly can.
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Yes it does!
Peter Perry 4th Feb 2011
@itguy08 Yes it does, and those ADS ******* were the reason many a malware was able to hide in Windows (that's another great contribution mr jobs gave to the world)...

Hell, Windows has had support for Metadata since NTFS was created.
I can do the same in Vista - I put the camera metadata into the search box: "FE190/X750" and it pulled up all of the pictures taken with that camera. I didn't even have to use the advanced search options.
@archerjoe
Don't tell itguy that! He thinks, for some reason, that Windows 7 has the limitations that older versions of Windows used to have. He doesn't realize that it is the best consumer OS on the market today, and it's not even close.
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Droid101 eh?
jacarter3 4th Feb 2011
@Droid101

So you base your handle on something that is the very antithesis of Windows?

LOLOL happy
So you base your handle on something that is the very antithesis of Windows?

Shhhhhh, I guess that's supposed to be I-R-O-N-Y
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I'm guessing he's an Android fan
Michael Alan Goff 4th Feb 2011
And one that realizes that you can be a fan of Android without having to hate Windows.
...duplicate folders when moving? If there's a folder with the same filename it will replace it instead of merging it.
For sorting Pics with same name or multiple copies i Use Photoshop Lightroom xD its just a great tool!
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OSX vs Windows 7
MichaelWells 4th Feb 2011
As someone that is Macinstosh user at home and do not see switching to a PC anytime soon; I must admit that Windows 7 is a pretty awesome OS. I use it on the desktop in my office at work and it works great for me. They both have pros and cons. Just a quick example would be how great spaces is in OSX; Windows would do great to incorporate some type application like this in Windows 8. On the other hand, the "add or remove programs" in Windows is an awesome tool. Removing applications in OSX has always been a pain at best and impossible at worst without purchasing a third party uninstaller like Amnesia. That is a little crazy. Also in Windows, all of your software is loaded with a Wizard on the proper drive and the proper folder. In most Mac software you have to drag the Icon to the application folder or stand on your head or something else. I have done that before and then tried to eject the DMG volume and told it was in use. Windows does not even mount a DMG on your desktop, it just works. So both are great operating systems and I sincerely wish that more of my fellow Mac users would take off the Steve Jobs sunglasses and realize that Microsoft makes some good products just like Apple does. What is the goal of the Microsoft haters? To have them go out of business? I hope that never happens, competition is better for everyone, especially the consumer. If it has not been for Windows 95 and 98 being such a huge success, would even be talking about OSX now? That drove Apple to bring Jobs back along with his NEXT OS.
@MichaelWells
Huh? In OS X in you do to get rid of an application drop it in the Trash Can. How hard is that? The Add/Remove programs utility in windows doesnt work well at all. It does not remove registry entries on a consistent basis. Windows needs installer wizards, because it is so difficult to install software on a windows machine. Dragging a package to the Applications folder is not that hard. And after that you can simple delete the Disk Image. Honestly have you really ever used OS X? From what you types, it doesnt sound like it at all. Now I personally have used just about every version of windows form 3.1 to windows 7, and every version of OS X (and the previous OSes from 7.6 to 9.2).
@Rick_K
Saying Windows "needs installer wizards" is a little bit incorrect, because it really doesn't; it would be more accurate to say it encourages it. There is a LOT of Windows software out there that you can just download, unzip, and run. Installer wizards persist for a couple reasons. One is poor design on the part of the app developers, one is that sometimes you'll have a big program that has a bunch of system-wide setup stuff to do at the beginning (often related to the first one), one is they have a few options in terms of how much to install, and one is just that installers are sort of the OS culture. (I happen to think they're convenient: I don't have to navigate around to where I want the final installation place to be to put them there, and it does stuff like install start menu entries. No need to do anything manually, even if it would be just a little bit. Or say I install a program on OS X. How does that program's files become associated with that program? I don't actually know. And how does it become *un*associated when I remove the program?)

Besides, it's not like there aren't plenty of OS X programs that have installers.

And you're right about the registry thing, and IMO it was probably a mistake to bring the registry out to the point it's at. That said... deleting that disk image on OS X presumably won't remove .files from your home directory or other related things, which is somewhat the equivalent. Really the main differences between the two is it that the registry is more hidden (mostly a negative, but has some positive aspects) but mostly that the registry ties together a bunch of stuff and you can muck your system up if you edit it indiscriminately.

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