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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Google's WebM video standard - Help or hindrance?

By | May 20, 2010, 7:47am PDT

Summary: Google has announced a new multimedia codec called WebM which the search giant is pitching to become the standard for web video. But is this new codec a help or a hindrance?

Google has announced a new multimedia codec called WebM which the search giant is pitching to become the standard for web video. But is this new codec a help or a hindrance?

The WebM codec combines the VP8 video codec with the Ogg Vorbis audio codec and the Matroska container format. The idea is to deliver high quality video that can adapt to varying bandwidths. Also, since it make efficient use of bandwidth, it will save content publishers cash.

Well, that’s the idea.

The problem is that there are already two competing HTML5 codecs - Ogg theora and H.264. This means that Google is not only foisting a new codec on users, it’s giving developers yet another choice.

It’s also going to need support from web browsers. But that doesn’t seem to be a problem. Both Firefox and Opera will support the format, as will Chrome I guess. And Microsoft has says that it will support WebM, but users will need to download and install the codec plugin. No word on support on mobile platforms yet.

Another issue here is patents. While WebM is open source, portions of the code could attract patent disputes. So far Google hasn’t made any mention of this and there isn’t, as yet, any offer on the table of indemnity for users.

Also, not everyone has gushing praise for the new codec. Jason Garrett-Glaser, the principal developer of the x264 codec, an open source codec compatible with H.264, has written a lot on VP8 already. Some of the points in his summary are worrying:

VP8, as a spec, should be a bit better than H.264 Baseline Profile and VC-1.  It’s not even close to competitive with H.264 Main or High Profile.

VP8, as an encoder, is somewhere between Xvid and Microsoft’s VC-1 in terms of visual quality.  This can definitely be improved a lot, but not via conventional means.

VP8, as a decoder, decodes even slower than ffmpeg’s H.264.  This probably can’t be improved that much.

With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free.

With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free.

My feeling about WebM is that if it hadn’t had a big name behind it (and when it comes to the web, they don’t get much bigger than Google), WebM would have attracted a yawn and we’d have all moved on.

Google can give WebM credibility, but when it comes to issues such as performance and patent infringement, even Google with all its might, cash and brainpower might not be able to wave a magic wand over these issues. Also, it introduces yet another format, which on the desktop isn’t a problem, but for mobile users it could result in more fragmentation and frustration.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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And the other side of the patent debate
tetralectic 2nd Jun 2010
How about a little balance:

http://carlodaffara.conecta.it/?p=420

and

http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2010/05/lead-ogg-dev-responds-to-jobs-jibes.html

The latter article is about the patent risk to Theora, but in light of the first article probably applies to VP8 as well.

tetralectic
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My take, it goes no where.
No_Ax_to_Grind 20th May 2010
Simply put, it isn't needed and the patent free claims sound like a lot of hot air.
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... to tilt the market in their favor, that's all.
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Adrian, you fall too easy for the FUD
OS Reload 20th May 2010
.
You should know that Adrian.

I will believe in those claims the day I see them materialize into something that goes beyond pure FUD.

Meanwhile I hope to see Google start work with hardware vendors to get hardware accelerated support for WebM.
@OS Reload

Have you read over the WebM spec? Have you done any kind of analysis on it? You're welcome to argue specific points if you have any specific points of your own. But to outright call someone's analysis FUD without providing anything constructive isn't contributing anything of use.

While I'm not fond of Google, am an iPad user and prefer h.264 for all my video output, I do agree that it would be nice to see if Google can get hardware support for the codec.

Having said that, I think that we're not really getting anywhere in this html5 video codec "war". We now have 3 different codecs that different groups are backing. Hopefully all browser developers will implement the video tag "properly" so that they will at least support alternate codecs, even if you have to install them separately.
@tk_77

While I have many good reasons to trust Google's judgment I have none to trust yours.

Your word alone is not enough, please provide some support or I'll be free to dismiss your opinions as of no more value than those of Loverock Davidson and others.
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OS Reload... you're the one
MacCanuck 20th May 2010
claiming worries about quality, patents, etc are FUD.

It's up to you to provide proof to back up YOUR claims and biased opinion (not facts, from your posts so far).
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The onus of proof lies with the prosecution
OS Reload Updated - 20th May 2010
@MacCanuck

Please substantiate your case by providing accurate sources or rest your case and stop wasting my time.
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RE: Google's WebM video standard - Help or hindrance?
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 20th May 2010
@OS Reload: You don't need to take tk_77's word for anything, but I *DO* suggest (as does tk & Adrian) that you read HGG's take on the codec and its issues: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377

Just because Google says something is "good" doesn't automatically mean that it actually is.

And as for trusting Google ... you should tread carefully here! Google's latest outing (collecting home routers' mac addresses & GPS locations via drive-by scans) should scare the Dickens out of all of us.
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OS Reload... try reading the article
MacCanuck 20th May 2010
It's Jason Garrett-Glaser, "the principal developer of the x264 codec, an open source codec compatible with H.264", that making the "case" re poor quality and possible patent issues with WebM.

You're the one calling such claims and articles FUD. It's up to you to provide proof why it's supposedly FUD. They've made their case (or presented their views), now you try to make yours. We'd all love to hear your "expertise" on the subject and not fanboism.

I'd trust the video expert Jason Garrett-Glaser before the (new MS) evil Google or yours.
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On possible patent issues
tk_77 20th May 2010
So far Google hasn't announced any form of indemnification for WebM. So wouldn't anyone that implements and then puts a lot of weight behind it potentially have problems if patent issues do happen later on?

h.264 may not be free but at least you know where you stand and who the "enemies" are. If Mozilla and Opera go full out on WebM and decide to make that their standard of choice, and then one day there are patent issues, won't they have many more issues then they would if they just sucked it up and went with h.264?

I could be wrong. Just my thoughts.
@tk_77

And yet that doesn't seem to stop people from buying their products.

Apple is being actively sued by at least two competitors while WebM is not.

As someone would say: Cue the double standards.
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You Don't Really Know
daengbo 21st May 2010
@tk_77
Just because the codec has a patent pool doesn't mean that there aren't other patents out there. In fact, I'm fairly certain VP8 has been through the wash to determine that it doesn't violate h.264 pool patents. It doesn't mean anything. Either format could have trolls lying in wait. We can't know.
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Anything but
Tim Patterson 20th May 2010
h.264 is a blatant attack on freedom.

h.264 is a glaring example of the utter corruption of our system that are software patents. Microsoft and Apple and friends (MPEG-LA) are perfectly willing to harm the people if they can bolster the bottom line or gain some sort of competitive advantage. Understand that they could care less about your freedom or any moral or ethical considerations. Profit any way possible within the letter of the law is their sole motivation. When they can't around the law they just buy a few more congresscritters and have it changed to benefit them (usually to the detriment of the people) Of course there are no shortage of personally corrupt people who support this injustice.

Anyone who loves freedom should vehemently oppose h.264 and software patents in general.
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Help: Unencumbered Video Codec for Everyone.
Dietrich T. Schmitz, ~ Your Linux Advocate 20th May 2010
nt
It seems it is trying to push alternative standards to everything. They are behind HTML5, VP8, Android, Chrome, Chrome/OS and many others I don't remember... Seems like they want to be the ones that set the standards (and so have a leg on the competition, or deprive others from oxigen - what MS did with IE against Netscape)
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Are you serious?
daengbo 21st May 2010
@Roque Mocan
Deprive others of oxygen? How? By contributing toward international standards? By releasing spec and reference software (nearly public domain)? So, those evil Internet engineers must have been trying to cut off the oxygen of .. who? ... when the introduced DNS servers, TCP stacks, and the like.

No, this is nothing like MS in the 90s. MS didn't want standards. MS wanted everyone on their platform. Google wants everyone on the Internet, all using the same standards, with all devices well supported. It's not philanthropy: they want a larger advertising market. In order to get that market, though, they have to break down walls and promote a more useful web experience. Apple is on board with HTML5. So is MS. So is Opera. So is Mozilla. Basically, it's everyone.

VP8 (WebM) contributes by lowering the barrier to entry for video. Instead of a huge number of different video formats, we're going to end up with h.264 and WebM (Xiph, the OGG folks, are already on board for WebM), just like we ended up with JPEG and PNG for graphics. We should also be seeing a huge uptake in SVG in the next few years. I believe Adobe is even going to go the HTML5 SVG route, and use their developer tools to put them on the top of that mountain. If you watched I|O the first day, then you know what I'm talking about.
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Patent Issue?
nyyet 20th May 2010
Just another inflammatory article to stir up responses. Like patents and who controls the patent taxes are not an issue with H.264? Not only that, but there is no limit guarantee on the H264 patent taxes after 2016. Did you learn nothing from MPEG? Google's position (again) is let the "free market" and "democratic social norms" prevail, or trust the interests of the Corporate crowd that controls H.264. I know which one my instincts says to go with, and it would not be anything controlled by MS, the KING OF PATENT TAXES.
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My 2 cents
DevGuy_z 20th May 2010
I think it has potential but for now it is behind H.264 simply because there isn't, currently, any hardware support for it either at the chipset level or at the GPU level. They are "working" on it but that's not saying much. My guess that given time it will be a player but for now it is H.264 or Flash (depending on whether you have an iPhone or not). I think it is too early to worry much about performance or quality as they are working on optimizations. It is after-all a developer preview. We can't treat it as if it was baked yet. Time will tell.
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at the time, the physical hardware was the starting point, as you had to have a compatible reader to access the media content.

then the encoding scheme was essential as it required a hard wired analog decoder to generate the signal for the tv set

and you finally had the TV set standard to be able to produce the right video format.



Now everything is software. Container is software and is almost free to decode ( except when crypto is in place ) Google goes matroska, but any container is easilly supported by a wide range of products.


media encoding is the video/audio codec. Once again, all of these codecs use similar technologies. and they are decoded on top of ther General processing units. Contrary to what is read everywhere, there is no such thing as hardcoded H264 playback. The chips ISA do not contain any single instruction that decode H264. only either software codec running on the CPU and loading processes on the video chip decodes, or for the most conservative chip maker at the firmware level ( which is software ).

All of this to say that a H264 capable hardware is VC1 capable, theora capable, dirac capable...

And next the video display, computerization has solved the issue...


So in the end what matters to the final user is not the proliferation of video standards, that is more of a protection as it reduces the chances of a technical lock down; what matters is that all player ( be they software, appliances browser embedded, whatever ) can access and decode any contenbt whatever the media and the codec used.

Which brings to the faire price of licenses if any extracted to support any given format. But the availability of free alternative will certainly bring these prices down down down, so the more we have free video solution, the more we will have viable commercial video solution also.

Now they will just have to tackle DRMs. Sun once tried to push forward an open source DRM solution, but it is at best dormant ( how long had sleeping beauty the sleep before true love came into play - is there true love for sun now oracle ? ), more certainly defunct
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Big hinderence
IE9 21st May 2010
It wil cost a lot of money to implement VP8 across the web.
A lot more than the cost of the h.264 format that everybody already has on their computers and that everybody will still have on their computers in ten years when it patents expire.

Why change the most efficient and ISO standard codec, which the whole world is already using extensivly, for some worse proprietary Google codec that will cost hardwarebuilders, software suppliers and websites a incredible amout of money to convert to.

Could google not provide a free codec for Firefox and Opera for h.264. That would be a lot cheaper than converting the web to some obscure and mediocre Google codec.
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This is a helping hinderence viewed from this keyboard. I cannot express the frustration of having to install countless software applications to view a simple video or hear audio, scouring the web to find that one format. Such as Apple, music files all in proprietary format [forcing] users to use their products -- I dislike Apple for this very reason alone and why I refuse to support them with purchases -- I don't like the idea of supporting PC communism. I cannot even convert my music directly from iTunes to MP3 yet the software offers to create an MP3 CD then says "your files must be in MP3 format to do this" and by the way, our [Apple] software will not allow you to do that BUT we will gladly convert your MP3's to our [Apple] format...

Back to Google, anything that appears free from Google is far from it, everyone in this forum should be well aware of this by now. I am just wondering when Google will say "...oops, we did it again... we are surprised by that oversight...".

On the other end of the spectrum I think it would be great for a PC socialism movement, but it becomes very dangerous when it is open source and [supposedly] free.

From what I gather of this article, comments, and minor other research this will not happen anytime soon, I see no point of replacing a perfectly good [h.264] standard with an inferior product, free or not as a user I want quality and efficiency which WebM appears to be lacking at this point.

This looks to be a bad move by Google, waste of time and resource. I see the good in it, but from such a deviant corporation I question their real intentions for the long term.
Adrian, I'm disappointed. First of all, quoting the X264 developer as saying that h.264 is superior to VP8 really means nothing. X264 (the project) pretty much think that nothing compares to h.264, especially their implementation. Yes, I read the whole article two days ago. "The docs suck!" "It looks like h.264!" "It can't even compete with baseline." I took none of the whiny drivel on that page at its word. There's too much conflict of interest and pure conjecture for it to be taken seriously.

That said, VP8 probably _isn't_ as good as h.264, and trying to work around the h.264 patents means that it can't really be. It doesn't matter. VP8 excels at what it was designed for: streaming. Not caching and playing. Real streaming that can compensate for network congestion and the like. Instant seeking. Etc. That's what matters on the web. WebM isn't the container for storing all your DVD rips in.

Google has offered all the patents it owns. No, it can't indemnify you. The way patents are, no one can guarantee that patents aren't out there, but Google paid $120M for the company, pretty much just for the codecs and patents, so I'm sure they had patents examined and did their best to find anything related. They also put in the nuclear clause into the license, rescinding the license for anyone who sues. If WebM becomes big, patent trolls won't be able to get on the web for video. They won't be able to use certain kinds of hardware. That's the best anyone can hope for. Software patents suck.

To everyone who's listening to the FUD, use your heads. Look at the software companies lining up behind this. Look at the hardware companies prepared to put hardware decoding into the mix. Do you really think none of them asked these stupid, FUDdy questions before they jumped on board? I know you think you're smarter than they are, but ... really?!?
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Hardware support will matter
zackers 23rd May 2010
The decoder performance issue will become moot if VP8 gets implemented in hardware, especially for mobile devices.
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And the other side of the patent debate
tetralectic 2nd Jun 2010
How about a little balance:

http://carlodaffara.conecta.it/?p=420

and

http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2010/05/lead-ogg-dev-responds-to-jobs-jibes.html

The latter article is about the patent risk to Theora, but in light of the first article probably applies to VP8 as well.

tetralectic

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