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Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?

By | February 27, 2011, 4:33am PST

While Microsoft denies that there is any connection between its new motion-sensing controller Kinect and Xbox consoles suffering the dreaded Red Ring of Death (RRoD) failures, the complaints from users keep rolling in.

Here’s a selection of comments I’ve received in over the past few weeks from people who believe their console died after hooking it up to a Kinect controller:

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I purchased a Kinect and games bundle yesterday 27/02/2011 from my local Argos store. All was plugged in correctly. I calibrated the sensor as per intructions. I carried out all updated as per onscreen messages. On one of the updates my console froze. I rebooted an all was ok.

I continued with all updates and all appeared ok.
Whilst playing Kinect adventures after approx an hour the screen console started to freeze more and more and then the dreaded RROD. If I leave console for a while I can play again and then RROD appears after console freezing again!

This appears to me to be TOO MUCH of a coincidence as I’d not had any problems with any games or the console before I pugged in Kinect and carried out all the updates!!

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 I have the older version of the Xbox 360. I believe mine is about 3 years old now. Never experienced the RRoD until I just bought the Kinect for my girls for Christmas. Within 2 days of playing the Kinect our system has failed with the RRoD. Tried disconnecting the Kinect but the Xbox 360 no longer works. I really don’t think it is coincidence. My girls have played the Xbox360 frequently enough. It was not until we hooked up Kinect that we have problems.

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I’ve got an xbox elite that I’ve had for approximately 3.5 years. I’ve played off and on for those 3.5 years with heavy play following new releases of COD games. I’ve recently been playing a lot because of the new Black Ops game (probably 1 to 2 hours a night, 4 nights a week since the release). Over Christmas I got an Kinect and since then I’ve played a few times. Probably about 3 hours of total time spread out over a week or two. I just turned on my xbox this evening and immediately got the RROD. The xbox logo hadn’t even splashed on the screen so I don’t see how it’s an overheating problem. I guarantee the Kinect is causing RROD problems. I had been playing my xbox regularly since Black Ops came out with no problems. Three hours of accumulated time with the Kinect and I get the RROD, pretty small odds that after 3.5 years (and thousands of hours of playtime) I suddenly have the problem.

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Yes, i have a Xbox 360 that i almost never play, once plugging in the Kinect i starting getting a rrod after a day of play. This is very frustrating as i have only played my xbox for a total of about 10 hrs. I have most likely a couple hundred hours in my wii.

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Our old 360 mfg dated 12-17-2005 has worked reliably since day one, used regularly, at least once a week, more offer during the winter months. Purchased a Kinect before Christmas, plugged it in, and it went into the RRoD while performing the setup for the first game.

Not too upset about it, we got good service from it, but it is suspicious it died within minutes of plugging in the Kinect!

———————————————————-

It happened to me. Had an elite with not problems for just over 3 years. Got kinect the week it came out (Nov). Worked great for 3 weeks, then RROD. The kinect was plugged into the device when it died. I thought it was bad luck. Hope there is something more then mere coincidence.

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I used to believe that Kinect-related Xbox RRoD deaths were purely coincidental, but given the amount of feedback I’ve had from owners who have suffered console deaths, I’m now of the opinion that if I had a old-style console that was out of warranty (pre slimline version - the new version seems unaffected), I wouldn’t connect a Kinect to it unless I was willing to shell out the dough on a replacement console.

Poll

Do you believe that there is a connection between the Kinect and Xbox RRoD deaths?

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Ez_Customs 1st Mar 2011
@fatman65535

You can't completely blame them, the problem is over heating parts on the CPU and GPU, not the board, and it isn't voltage related. Proven 6 years ago. Because it isn't a Voltage problem on the over heating, Foxconn is in the clear. It is bad design. First it was the Retention clips on the system, they are still Crosses, but have more clearance and are notably sturdier, with less chance of Warping due to heat. Besides Foxconn is following a standard that MS design suggested. Also the Foxconn board found in the xBox is of better quality then most there PC line!!
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I guess the additional hardware load due the image processing makes the XBoxes overheat.
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Coincidence or Not!

My Kinect is working fine btw wink
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Didn't back in the original problem
James Quinn 27th Feb 2011
@tonymcs@...
Others have XBox that worked just fine?

Pagan jim
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@James

I'm sure they did, just adding my bit of hearsay as well wink
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@tonymcs@...
I don't think Microsoft would brick any more consoles than what they already have getting bricked by heat naturally. Keep your console cool and you most likely won't see a failure!

But...... with Sony and PS3's you can bet they put out badly coded firmware updates that has bricked more consoles than Xbox 360's. I've had two 360's.... one died and the other is still running fine even with Connect and new games!

I've had 3 PS3 and none of them work anymore. Two by firmware updating and the first one was hard drive replaced under warranty! ....I don't think two firmware updates killing two consoles in the same house is a coincidence!

If it was Sony.... you can bet it was done on purpose. I'll never buy another Sony product again...... ever!!!!
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Rick_K Updated - 28th Feb 2011
@i2fun@...
I guess you missed the Million+ xbox 360s that were intentionally bricked by Microsoft a little over a year ago. Unless you believe that the xbox 360 is Microsofts property and the end user has no right to swap out their Hard Drives. Sure in order to install a larger Hard Drive requires a Hack, as Microsoft did not offer a 250 GB drive, and the 120 GB Drive they did offer was ridiculously overpriced. Why pay $150 for a 120 GB Drive, when you can buy a 250GB Drive for $59?
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@Pagan Jim I bet the story is dust... Dust in a fan will cause an overheat like nothing else.
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Ez_Customs Updated - 1st Mar 2011
@tonymcs@... ?

If you don't recall, teh xBox 360 in teh early days you were basically guarrantied to get a Defective system! Elite narrowed that to about 30% based on the Elite Configuration. But lets be smart here, AI, Additional physics, more processing needed to render and everything else. All this being the direct connect to teh trashy ATI ouput, the RROD isn't gonna just dissapear, Kinnect will only make the few which havent' failed yet fail. If MS was smart they would leave the console wars, considerate on the WIndwos Platform and leave teh Console war to teh ones that know whats up like Sony, and Nintendo. Just becuase something is cheaper doesn't mean it is over all better, it just means that it is less effective at it's job, and one of those jobs is to continue to work reliably. only about 30% of PS3 fail, and the ones that do can use a simple Cooling MOD and it will work, unlike the xBox where the problem is so deep that it isn't just a simple Cooling option.


Microsoft, you need to wake up. Fix the stuff or leave. 720 was suppose to be released by now, and yet your wasting your time on a broken machine that has proven itself to not be fixable without a total over haul. Give it up, Stop producing xBox 360, save your money for the 720 if it works right. Or Stop Consoles all together and stuck to what you can do, because Gaming isn't one of them, it never has.

If you were to ask a common opinion about what was the turn of the xBox success, it was removing teh nVidia ION graphics from teh system 3 weeks after teh initial xBox 360 release. Should have listened to teh Pro's, and the pro's are the people who play it, not particularly the ones that make it!!!
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@tonymcs@...

BYW hacking a PS3 in any level will cause problems, and if you didn't hack it, how could you no know updating on any Wireless device isn't and shouldn't' be done to connect to the internet on anything sensitive, while updating. It probably isn't Sony's fault, it is probably you being lazy and and cheap, using a Crappy Wi-Fi network router, and if your as smart as you look in text, your probably as far away from the WiFi Radio source as possible. Don't go arguing the WiFi Card in theh PS3, it typically perform's better then most PC WiFi Adapters! Don't hate because of your stupidity. As with any system you should never update on WiFi, even with PC's. PS3 Failure is less then half the going rate of xBox, probably closer to 30% of the xBox 360. I play the PS3 and or my kids and it is on all day long watching Movies and games, music and streaming video off my Windows 7 Network (Something xBox sucks at which is funny because it is built on Windows Vista and the newer ones on Windows 7). Funny isn't it. And on top of that, Sony says it shouldn't be on more then 2 hours at a time and should cool for 30 minutes before turning on again, having been on almost 80% of the day for 2 years straight, it still works flawless. That is more then you can say about 360. BTW Wired Network and never WiFi. I am not a Cheater, so WiFi on gaming anything isn't done!!

Over all PS3 has abotu 25% Defect rate, and Sony knows how to fix it, unlike MS. In a year or so if teh xBox trend continues even after Kinect released, xBox will die off, and with the recent seperation of 10 xBox Developers who use to be exclusive, now developing for Sony, the days are numbered. Kinect wasnt' ever intended to save xBox, it was intended only to extend the 360 to buy time to complete the 720, which keeps getting pushed back. Today now 6 years later!! Serves them right, go back to simple hardware like Mice, and or Software like Office. That's where MS belongs, not in the Console war.
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@karnok.d@...I do believe you are correct. MS initially planned to build a processor into the Kinect itself, but decided not to because of the cost and as a result the Kinect uses the processor int the Xbox 360. The problem is that this does put a load on the processor which will cause it to heat up. However any high end game will do so as well, put a consistent heavy load on the processor. What the author doesn't state is how many Kinects were sold, without the new console, and how many of those experienced the RROD witin a short period time. Considering from I have read that MS sold well over 2 million to date, and I believe a majority of them were sold for the older style Xbox 360, having a few dozen users experience the RROD dosn't indicate the Kinect caused the problem. It could be that these consoles were ready to fail even if they played a demanding game.
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@wthilo@...

You could be right ont eh system used on it, but the author doesn't need to to specify. The actually chance that this statement is proven true is so high that it is sickening that a company would release such a disaster. It is really a shame. We shouldn't be hating on MS 100% though, we should be hating on Steve Balmer and his choices he makes. The Guy can hardly talk with confidence, little lone make smart decisions on who should design what.

But this will play out. I know from people I know to have the new Kinect Bundles. of the 15 who bought it, 10 went back to the store, and 4 get hot in minutes. That says something. yeah small numbers, but your claim on 2 mil sold, well that's probably wrong. then again MS profits were based on 3 mil units sold, making kinect a failure on the MS side.

BTW I don't hate the xBox because it is MS, matter of fact I wish it was reliable enough to buy simply for the games, but those awesome games don't mean anything if the system fails, and well I can get a better versions on Games for Windows Live which are also on the xBox, so with that said, if the xBox is so great, why does Games For Windows Live have every game that the xBox does? to me this is MS admitting that there is a bigger problem
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@karnok.d@...
That's was I immediately thought when I started reading the article!
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Cylon Centurion 27th Feb 2011
XBoxes have always been shaky. There could be a link, but I'm assuming not. What could be happening is they are overheating due to the extra demands put on the hardware, but since consoles are these things that companies absolutely REFUSE to lets us tinker with, even going as a far as to prevent us from opening the cases, there's no way to know for sure.

This is why I refuse to buy consoles of any kind, especially Sony's crap, but I thought Microsoft would know better by now. I should be able to open up an XBox to clean the dust out every month. That, and I deplore console gaming in general. W+S+A+D+Mouse = Headshots baby!
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Message has been deleted.
msalzberg Updated - 28th Feb 2011
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Message has been deleted.
i2fun@... Updated - 28th Feb 2011
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Cylon Centurion 28th Feb 2011
@Cylon Centurion 0005

Ok guys, what did I miss?
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RRoD is the result of using solder without lead. Lead is a health hazard when direct contact with the skin. Lead is also the substance that makes the solder so effective in holding components together. The replacement compounds simply can not stand up to the heat. And when you add in the extra computing needed for the Kinect or any other extra controller the leadless solder simply comes apart. So it is no coincidence, it is inevitable.
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@Jboard
Not always the case, as gold tin works better than lead tin. High reliability electronics have used a mixture of 20% gold and 80% tin for the last few decades. Granted consumer electronics are not considered high reliability devices. But when you have a satellite in orbit, you want to make sure it is going to work reliably due to cost of repair.
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RE: High reliability electronics
fatman65535 Updated - 28th Feb 2011
@Rick_K

I have had an experience with some "supposed" high reliability electronics.

Without getting into a lot of detail, when I worked in radio in the 1980's, the station was plagued with constant loss of the transmitter telemetry link. The FCC did not take a fond view of stations that can not control their transmitters (ours was 26 miles away from the studio).

The engineers tore that unit apart, and discovered these interesting design choices.

1) All IC's were in tin plated sockets.

2) The motherboard was mounted with the IC's upside down.

3) Thermal cycling caused the IC pins to expand and contract; ultimately resulting in the chips falling out of the sockets!

The cure was to replace each IC socket with a gold plated one, and leave room between the socket and the board to allow a ty-rap to be used to physically hold the chips in place. It is my understanding that complaints from many stations forced the manufacturer to re-design the board with the chips on the top, and use gold plated sockets. They also had to replace quite a few units out in the field that suffered from those design choices.
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@fatman65535
Having spent 10 years working in the DoD/NASA electronics field. I found very few of the products were soldered using SN63 (63% Tin/37% lead). The majority of the boards that were destine for Military fighters, and or, Satellites used 80/20 Gold/Tin (which is screwy, as it contains 80% Tin and 20% gold). Still the point I am making is: Using gold/tin provides better conductivity, and corrosion resistance over the old lead/tin (which was more commonly used in consumer electronics).
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Oh but Kinect is such an innovation!!
Ron Burgundy 27th Feb 2011
They pulled the same denial stunt on the initial 360 launch, my console RRODed on me and they made me pay for the repair, only to refund my payment six months later when they grudgingly admitted it was their fault.

Break out your wet towels here we go again!
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@Ron Burgundy Quit flagging my posts DORKROCK.
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iPad for the win!
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@Ron Burgundy
I don't know who flagged your comments, but kinda silly blaming anyone and I have never seen flagging result in a comment being pulled unless it really was Spam or abuse!

btw.... since Android took 54% of the Smartphone market and CrApple's declined, you can bet the open platform Android tablet devices will soon be cremating your iFad's out of existence too. haha... in fact even Gene Munster the Apple Guru says Android will eventually over take iFad! lol..... wink ( go ahead and flag this if it makes you feel better... haha...)
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@i2fun@... Yeah that's why Xoom got reviews less than stellar and was still sub par compared with iPad.
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Eric12341 Updated - 1st Mar 2011
@Ron Burgundy... what the hell does the damn iPad have to do with this. stop sucking on jobs dick fanboy
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@i2fun@...

Thats totally wrong Google is screwing up Andriod OS. IOS has proven itself threw multiple platforms, and I really doubt that Android will make a comeback. Most Android phones are returned, statistically, and Sales figures dont' account those to the public. this is far from Fan boy remark, I personally hate Phones and Iphone/IPad's is a waste of money when I have my PC, and well Smash all those devices, but the facts are Androids failing!!
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So you have resorted to quoting anonymous blog posts from jealous PS3 users as news?
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ZING!
Loverock Davidson 27th Feb 2011
@Mythos7
LOL ZING!!
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@Loverock Davidson You don't even own a 360 do you LOSERrock?
  • Flagged
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@Ron Burgundy

Why woudl he want to. Every xBox fan boy who bought a PS3, now knows why when compared side by side, PS3 Typically wins in the performance ranks, it is teh games list of the xBox that makes it attractive, and that Fact is gone now. PS3 will have insain amounts of games soon, and this Kinect BS will only help it along. Move owns Kinect to top that off
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@Mythos7 Prove the source are PS3 owners....oh that's right you can't.
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@Mythos7
Nice way to try and deflect the criticisms, but it will not work. The Red Ring of Death is typical for the xbox due to a design flaw. Nothing more, nothing less. I would think it might have to do with inadequate cooling (or maybe to much thermal paste on the components). Some of the people who have this problem are indicating it is after doing updates, but I believe it is just a hardware failure from using lower cost components.
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@Rick_K

Put the blame on ATI the x2400 was a roast GPU in PC you know? but yes teh xBox isn't designed with QUality the problem isn't going away, and the more technology they throw on it to delay and allow more development time on the 720 or whatever they will call it on release, will only hurt the reputation of teh BOX. Let MS Console Division Fail it is long over due!!
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@Mythos7

Why are PS3 Users jealous? We now have stolen 10 of xBoxes exclusive developers, in the last 2 years. These Developers are no developing for both, and well Box is an equivalent to a 2.5 Ghz PC, where are the PS3 is equivalent to a high end 4Ghz PC!

Your babbling on a topic you cannot support there so leave the PS3 out. They aren't even comparable anyway. One uses CPU/GPU and the other is Cell Micro-processing which will eat up any CPU/GPU without a sweat!!
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Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Loverock Davidson 27th Feb 2011
As soon as I read the headline I knew this was another hit piece by AKH. Look, if Microsoft said there is no connection then there is no connection. You don't have any insider information to suggest otherwise so we are going to go with Microsoft's word on this over yours.
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@Loverock Davidson Yes, just as there was no connection in the initial 360 release, Microsoft played the denial game and then fessed up and extended the warranties by two years.

You don't even own a 360 so go post elsewhere LOSER.
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@Loverock Davidson Where's your lover Sonofasailor to come defend you Lovey?? Too busy turning tricks on the docks today?
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@Ron Burgundy

hey moron how do you know if he owns a 360 or not?
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
Ron Burgundy Updated - 27th Feb 2011
@Knix96 he doesn't have a WP7 odds are he doesn't have a 360. But I have a 360 and Microsoft had better admit their fault.
  • Flagged
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@Ron Burgundy

Feeling a little homophobic Ron? There's a lot of gay hate in your posts. Why am I reminded of the repressed gay footballer on Glee?

Seek help...
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@tonymcs Nope, not at all..if you recall, SonofaSailor was the one referencing my avatar of Zod as being gay...but since he's taking up for Loverock by flagging any posts against him or Microsoft it's only logical to assume he's having a meltdown trying to defend his girlfriend.
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@Loverock Davidson

I would certainly hope not!!!

I will take into consideration the potential for these gaming consoles having been manufactured with less than top quality parts. As to who is responsible for the cheapness, you can blame the contract manufacturers for that one. Foxconn??? by any chance????
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@fatman65535

You can't completely blame them, the problem is over heating parts on the CPU and GPU, not the board, and it isn't voltage related. Proven 6 years ago. Because it isn't a Voltage problem on the over heating, Foxconn is in the clear. It is bad design. First it was the Retention clips on the system, they are still Crosses, but have more clearance and are notably sturdier, with less chance of Warping due to heat. Besides Foxconn is following a standard that MS design suggested. Also the Foxconn board found in the xBox is of better quality then most there PC line!!
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@Loverock Davidson

your right Loverock, it isn't Coincidence, it is destiny! Your coming to now, and that is good thing for your personality!!
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
loggie48mxg Updated - 27th Feb 2011
To avoid any risk of the RROD, I replaced my old 360 (bought in 2009) with the new 360/Kinect combo set. Better to get a new system then deal with the RROD issue.
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@loggie48mxg Oh ok so better to fork out a bunch of cash on something that's supposed to work??

Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Hey they are coming out with new tires for the corvette, I better get a new corvette in case they don't fit my old one even though Chevrolet says they'll fit just fine.
@loggie48mxg That must be the most moronic and completely brainless reasoning for wasting money I ever heard.
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@wackoae LOL I know..hey, if a new hard drive doesn't work in my computer, I won't return it for a different one, I'll just build a new computer around it.

DERP.
  • Flagged
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RE: Kinect and the RRoD ... coincidence or not?
zaghy2zy Updated - 27th Feb 2011
I think there is a connection, but not an obvious or something Microsoft has seen or known. I don't even get or think of any possible cause other than overheating, which he said was not the case.

I have an older 360 and a kinect, used it regularly and usually around 3-5 hours a day 7 days a week (although, actual kinect use is more or less 1-3 hours a week now). But I did use the kinect over the new year which had it running for over 24 hours straight, and I had zero problem. Maybe these are isolated incidents... Not sure, no one I know had a problem.

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