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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Microsoft to address Windows 8 Start Screen concerns

By | October 5, 2011, 7:16am PDT

Summary: Microsoft remains convinced that touch is the way forward, but will address some of the issues facing desktop users.

Microsoft is listening to your Windows 8 Start Screen concerns, and has promised to address them and improve the mouse and keyboard experience.

Chaitanya Sareen, program manager lead for Microsoft’s Core Experience Evolved team, explains over on the Building Windows 8 blog:

We recognize that to some people, any change to Windows is going to be disruptive, and so we want to make sure we continue an open dialog about those changes. Since Windows is such an integral part of so many people’s lives, most any change can generate visceral reactions like “how can I turn it off,” or debates over whether things are more or less efficient.

So, Microsoft is listening!

The debate around touch today is looking eerily like the debate in the 1980s over whether a mouse was a gimmick, a productivity time waster, or an innovation in the user experience. We say this knowing that many comments have been emphatic about the superiority of the mouse over touch. Unlike when the mouse was introduced-before desktop publishing programs came along there were few use cases for the mouse other than early paint programs-today we are surrounded by touch screens-at the airport, the gas station, the movie theater, every cash register, and of course, on our phones. The one place touch has not yet become mainstream is on the most capable of all the devices you use. Just like the introduction of the mouse, innovations like this do not happen without new OS support, new apps, and new hardware. We believe that, as with the mouse, we will see touch augmenting, but not replacing, most every aspect of the PC experience over time. Achieving this starts with the Windows 8 Developer Preview.

Sareen then goes on (rather long-windedly, as is the case with these posts) to address some of the feedback that Microsoft has received. He covers three categories:

Q: Can Metro apps be closed without having to resort to the Task Manager?

A: ‘Yes’ but Microsoft thinks that you won’t need to do it often.

Q: Will Microsoft improve the current mouse scrolling through the apps on the Start Screen?

A: According to Sareen this will be improved in the Windows 8 beta.

Q: Will there be a better way of cycling through apps?

A: Microsoft plans to detail this in a future post.

What we’re not getting is any kind of word as to whether the classic Start menu option will be available officially rather than through a third-party hack. I’m still holding out hope that Microsoft won’t forcibly shove the Metro Start Screen down all out throats.

Microsoft seems convinced that touch UI is the way forward on the desktop. I remain to be convinced. I don’t see touch catching on with enterprise users for a variety of reasons (cost, training …) and as far as the home user goes, tell me how touch makes email, Facebook, photo editing, video editing and so on any better?

Poll

Should Microsoft offer the classic Start Menu in Windows 8?

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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Microsoft should go along without
FanoTech 8th Nov
The whole point of Windows 8 was to re-engineer the user experience. So how can you do that when you going to end up putting everything back into the system? Sure the Metro Apps are exactly mouse friendly but given enough tweaks it can and it does more for people (at least I believe) than static icons. Wouldn't it be more useful to have a live, updating email app showing you, before you click on it, how many unread emails you have instead of a icon on the desktop?
YES.

I still think good ol' business users should have access to the full "classic" UI. Seems silly to have metro running in a business environment.
@Cylon Centurion
won't matter a bit.
Old or new style windoze apps are dying fast: http://techrights.org/2011/10/04/windows-live-gallery-is-dead/
0 Votes
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What?
mdemuth 5th Oct
@The Linux Geek
So a service that offered extensions to other services is shut down and this proves something?
Getting desperate there LG. Pathetically desperate.

I guess Win7 sales and the interest in Win8 are enough to scare you.
0 Votes
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@The Linux Geek - I notice you conveniently decided to ignore the reason WHY they're shutting down the Live Gallery:

Part of the reason Microsoft has decided to close the Windows Live Gallery has to do with the upcoming launch of the Windows 8 operating system. Microsoft has already released a Developer Preview of Windows 8 which will include support for downloading apps via the Microsoft Store .
@The Linux Geek - back to the fry station little boy. Smoke break is over. What a numb-skull.
  • Flagged
@The Linux Geek
I've learned that anyone who uses the term "windoze" lacks any objectivity at all, much less offers a persuasive argument.
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Desperate??
Grandmasterflash123 Updated - 6th Oct
@The Linux Geek
Please please spare us your one dimensional views. Go back to your desk and start writing programs for an OS (Linux) that most 'ordinary' folk can understand, then and only then will you be in the position to announce the 'death' of apps that are more 'USER FRIENDLY'.
@Cylon Centurion ...

Not only that, but Microsoft should have a transitional period with their OS. They shouldn't simply discontinue a long-used feature overnight. My advise to Microsoft for Windows 8:

1. Feel free to enable it by default, but have the option to disable Metro in Home and Professional editions.
2. Disable Metro by default in Business edition.
@WarhavenSC - Maybe not by default but absolutely make sure that it's definable by Group Policy for non-touch systems.
@WarhavenSC Exactly - or even better, if the OS doesn't detect touch-capable hardware, default to the classic interface outright. Whatever its merits on a touch-enabled devices, Metro makes no sense on a device that is not.
@Cylon Centurion..... it really does not matter, but Classic mode is a GOOD step, as I have decided that I will not upgrade beyond XP until MSWin7,8,9,10 are backwards compatible allowing me to OP/install 8/16/32bit loaders/programs without requiring some special mode/VMware/etc. I wrote programs in QB and now VB I no longer can use in Win7..... I'm sick of MS sticking it to us on programs that I own/use/proficient-at due to MS inability to create OS's that are backwards compatible.

I'll go to Linux next then screw MS forever!

N6JSX, MS-EET, Sr EE Test/MFG
@Kuby - Either that or you could throw off the animal skin cape and move out of the caves you're living in.

Just a thought.
@Kuby
You will find the grass a lot greener on the other (Linux) side...
Welcome!
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@Kuby
Hope that door is big enough for you to runnn through. I guess there will be no reason for you to hang out in Windows essential blogs either. You're Out Of Here!!
@Kuby
And when Appl* release their's in a couple of years from now, you will be back here trying to convience everyone that it's the best idea ever and how it is the most innovative technique. Go figure
@Kuby When you do, you can pull your old peripherals out of the closet, run your old apps on Wine, and take out half your RAM and save it for later. You can run Unity if you really want it to look like Win8. Welcome to freedom!
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No kidding.
SenorAlejandro 6th Oct
@Cylon Centurion Seriously. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare; it's bad enough we have folks sitting with questionable posture in front of luminescent rectangles ALL DAY LONG without having to think about reaching up to interact with the computer. And I definitely have no desire to do this at home, either, especially when the PC I use most often is connected to a television with a wireless mouse & keyboard. =P
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I'm with you for the most part...
ReadWryt (error) 6th Oct
@Cylon Centurion

...but I would LOVE to have the Metro Screen as a sort of "Screen Saver". It would seem to me that such an interface would be great for the kind of "Impulse Launches" one might do when one didn't need the full UI. Like when you just want to launch your DVD software, or listen to music...surf to one of your bookmarked pages. Otherwise, I don't even want to think about using it for hours on end as opposed to the Desktop/Start Menu UI. Heck, I still run in "Classic" mode...it helps me catch phony apps that look like XP programs...
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@Cylon Centurion - For the traditional desktop user perhaps Microsoft is missing a trick. There are plenty of things they SHOULD have been working on but don't seem interested in proper improvements.
@Cylon Centurion I would extend that to say that it's silly to have metro running on a desktop, period.
@Cylon Centurion
The cost of converting to the new screens and training will override any improvements in the Business world at this time.
Most bussiness will keep the XP system till it times out.
Have humans evolved in the past 30 years, or something? Or is everyone at MS simply too young to remember?

" gorilla arm : n.

The side-effect that destroyed touch-screens as a mainstream input technology despite a promising start in the early 1980s. It seems the designers of all those spiffy touch-menu systems failed to notice that humans aren't designed to hold their arms in front of their faces making small motions."

http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html
Go visit a fast-food chain, hotel chain, restaurant, or grocery store, and you'll find mass adoption of touch-screen technology.
@Joe_Raby
In the service industry, people stand in front of a touch screen for only a few moments and then move on. So if these are the only use-cases that have adopted touch-screens then that is seriously bad news for touch on the desktop.
@Joe_Raby ant they are useinf MS technology as well!
@Joe_Raby
Sure...for "hunt and peck" choosing from a finite list of choices. What about data entry?
@Joe_Raby
Touch is a low resolution input - totaly unsuitable for a lot of pc operations. For mobile, touch is a solution for not having any other sort of suitable input device. Its also particularly bad for repetive injuries.
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true, but...
aikidaves 5th Oct
Ever tried to design a word processor or a spreadsheet to work efficiently with a touch-screen? Someone might eventually, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Single-tasking..
jerryj@... 5th Oct
@Joe_Raby
Service industries you mentioned do not multi-task. Single-tasking is a great example where touch-screen metro style interface would be appropriate. A business desktop multi-tasks, usually with a minimum of 2 to 3 major apps needing to be run side-by-side.

A business desktop is a completely different environment.
@Joe_Raby
...and for uses that are non constant - a waiter does not just stand in front of a screen all day poking at icons, it's only an occasional activity. And in a grocery store, the main touch screen action is self-checkout, which a customer does for only a couple minutes, not all day. The actual checkers employ a much more traditional keyboard-and screen setup, because it's easier to use for a long period of time.
Touch screens are great for some things, not as great for others. Remember, a mouse is very useful, but it didn't obsolete the keyboard.
@Joe_Raby One does not spend hours in front of these screens. Also many users' monitors, especially large screens, are beyond arm's reach. The Classic Menu should be continued. But I'll stay with Linux regardless.
0 Votes
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@doodlius .. you're correct
thx-1138_@... 6th Oct
@Joe_Raby " ... And in a grocery store, the main touch screen action is self-checkout, which a customer does for only a couple minutes, not all day. The actual checkers employ a much more traditional keyboard-and screen setup, because it's easier to use for a long period of time. "

... the dynamics of Ergonomics in relation to conceptualization and design make the final decision on the matter critical as to whether Metro floats or sinks.

+1
@Zogg Just connect a keyboard and mouse via the USB ports, and start your data entry. Then when you leave the office to take a train journey, use it as a tablet.
@laz001@...

Even better, just get an Atrix
@Zogg - I don't think people are comprehending the statements. He is referring to the advent and introduction of the mouse and comparing touch to that. The mouse did not REPLACE keyboards as an input device, but rather augmented capabilities. There may be applications for this technology which do not currently exist and won't without the acceptance of touch as an input. I don't think that Microsoft (or anyone else) is trying to imply that touch screen will replace keyboards and mice on a desktop/laptop, but rather will serve as an additional form of input. 30 years from now, it's applications may be as natural to us as the mouse is to us today.
@tdogg219
Except the preview they've released features a Metro that is clearly designed with touch as a primary means of input.
Big icons spread across the whole screen instead of small icons collected in a small area. Scrolling through the Metro interface requires moving left and right, which is incredibly clumsy when compared to vertical scrolling with a scroll wheel. The traditional start menu has been eliminated. Switching between programs can no longer be accomplished with a quick alt-tab.
Windows 8 feels like a great touch-based tablet OS that's being shoe-horned into a desktop computer.
@Zogg - phew ... just as well the new Windows8 UI works well with keyboard & mouse too then!
@Zogg
Ah someone else who has looked at the designed and sitting posture of the human being - pity micerosoft can't.
0 Votes
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@brianm101
Their iPad keyboard dock proves it.

At least Windows 8 works with a mouse so that touching the screen is optional, if it happens to be convenient to you at the time.

The mouse is not supported by iOS and so Apple's keyboard dock forces you to hold your arm in front of your face and make small motions. Yes, the mouse is supported if you jailbreak your iPad but this is clearly not a solution that Apple had in mind when they released the keyboard dock.

Now, as someone that actually has used an iPad with a keyboard (not Apple's keyboard dock but something similar) I can tell you that it works just fine. Maybe you and Zogg have spindly, weak arms? Maybe a trip to the gym might help?
" ... tell me how touch makes email, Facebook, photo editing, video editing and so on any better?"

Short answer, it doesn't. happy

Apart from "Bingo" and "Tic-Tac-Toe", I can't really see much use for touch at all (on a desktop PC).
@lehnerus2000 If you have that big HP Touch screen then it does make sense. If you have your desktop w/o touch then you are correct. Narrow, narrow...
@lehnerus2000
I'll bet when Appl* bring their's to market a couple of years from now, you will try to convince us that it's the best ideal ever, and an innovative masterpiece. Go figure!
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Bzzzz! Wrong!
lehnerus2000 6th Oct
@windozefreak
You seems to think that anyone who doesn't like a Windows "feature" that you like, is an Apple or Linux "fanboy".

You obviously haven't been paying attention.
I don't use any Apple products.
The last time I even touched a Mac, was the original B&W Macintosh.
I can't recall EVER posting a pro-Apple comment.
Oh wait ... I wrote that Steve Jobs was right about Flash.

I have always used MS operating systems (since about 1984).
I have stated many times that I use XP & Ubuntu 10 (both rarely) and Windows 7 (mainly).
Windows 7 is very reliable and so is XP (for me anyway).
Windows Explorer is "glitchy" though (at least it remembers the Folder Template settings now).
In fact, this year Ubuntu has been the twitchiest OS on my PC.

The actual "Windows" parts of Windows 8 work great on my PC (apart from Windows Explorer which is "glitchy").
It uses 1/3 less RAM than Windows 7 does.
It hasn't crashed on me yet.

I have also stated that Windows 8 will probably be good on a tablet.
I'm not so sure about touch screen desktops (regardless of the OS).
I won't be buying a touch screen monitor until you no longer have any choice.
It turns out that since Vista, my primary use of the start menu is:

1.) Press Windows Key
2.) Start Typing

Once I realized the procedure was exactly the same (or better) in Windows 8, the transition was smoother for me.

However...

I still haven't figured out how to find the non-metro version of an application if one exists without browsing to the file location manually.

Specifically, Remote Desktop. The metro version doesn't seem to allow you to specify ports or modifiers like "/admin". Am I doing something wrong?
@Rich Miles - Try creating a shortcut to the app with all your modifiers and give it a unique name.

If the location of the customized shortcut is indexed, then the search function will find it.
@Rich Miles

Same for me, windows 8 UI is efficient, as soon you discover how to use it properly.

There is still plenty of room for improvement, but its a pre-beta version.

I found that i never used 90% of what was inside the classic start menu, only the search bar.
@AKH
What we???re not getting is any kind of word as to whether the classic Start menu option will be available officially rather than through a third-party hack. I???m still holding out hope that Microsoft won???t forcibly shove the Metro Start Screen down all out throats.
It's available "officially" now. It's a simple registry key change from a 1 to 0. It's not a "third party hack", it's no different than any other change made through the Windows registry.
@swmace Changing things in the registry scares people, so the request is really that they add an interface to make the change. After reading the windows 8 blog, it definitely sounds like the beta will have an improved interface. There will be major cleanup of the start screen and probably enough for those disliking it now to see why it is better.
@swmace
The registry hack may work for now, as Windows-8 is still very preliminary (lets hope). But, when finally released, how the Start Menu appears needs to be a Control Panel element, selectable by the user. [Same way with the Metro interface vs. Classic desktop interface. This needs to be user selectable via a Control Panel element.]
@TsarNikky
"how the Start Menu appears needs to be a Control Panel element"

No, that's too late. It needs to be an option on the login page.
0 Votes
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The whole point of Windows 8 was to re-engineer the user experience. So how can you do that when you going to end up putting everything back into the system? Sure the Metro Apps are exactly mouse friendly but given enough tweaks it can and it does more for people (at least I believe) than static icons. Wouldn't it be more useful to have a live, updating email app showing you, before you click on it, how many unread emails you have instead of a icon on the desktop?

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