Serious ATI bug makes Vista virtually unusable for some
Summary: Over the past few weeks I've been working on trying to isolate a problem between Windows Vista and ATI graphics cards where the display driver stops responding and sometimes recovers and sometimes doesn't.
Over the past few weeks I've been working on trying to isolate a problem between Windows Vista and ATI graphics cards where the display driver stops responding and sometimes recovers and sometimes doesn't.
The error message that you get (if you're lucky and the system recovers) is this:
Display driver atikmdag stopped responding and has recovered
The bug also seems to occur when running Vista on a Mac using Boot Camp This problem is a real show stopper. Even if your system recovers and continues working, you've had to put up with a lot of screen flicker and system slow downs while it crashes. If the system doesn't recover then it's reboot time. It can happen when you're gaming or within Windows, depending on how badly affected you happen to be.
ATI/AMD know about this problem (which, from what I gather, dates back to when Vista was released) and here's what they have to say about it:
Symptoms:When running games or full screen video, some users may be shown a message stating ATIKMDAG has stopped responding but was successfully recovered. In some cases, the system will continue to work as normal. Alternately, this error message may not result in the system being recovered and the system may need to be reset.
Solution: Currently there is no solution.
ATI Engineering has been advised of this issue and is investigating. Any updates will be published when they become available.
That's a lot of help.
As I said, I've been investigating this issue for some time now and have ruled out almost all of the voodoo surrounding this problem. It's definitely not a hardware problem. I've tested the system memory extensively using applications such as Memtest+ and tested system stability using programs such as Prime95. I've also ruled out insufficient power from the PSU and defective graphics cards - the cards work fine under XP, but not under Vista. Heat, another possible culprit, doesn't seem to be the reason either. BIOS updates make no difference either. Changing memory for modules from a different vendor also has no effect.
Some factors that seem to make the problem worse are:
- Multiple monitors
- 2GB+ of RAM
- All memory slots filled on motherboard
New drivers and installing all the Vista compatibility, reliability and stability updates (at least one update is meant to address this issue). The bug also seems to occur when running Vista on a Mac using Boot Camp.
Bottom line, this is, without a doubt, a driver/Vista issue that requires urgent attention from ATI. Yet another reason for gamers to give Vista a wide berth.
And, for what it's worth, a similar problem seems to affect Nvidia graphics cards. The error is then Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has recovered.
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Talkback
This is a Vista TDR problem...
From NVIDIA:
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NVIDIA statement on TDR Error Messages
Some Windows Vista users have reported that their systems are displaying an error message that says: "Display driver stopped responding, but has successfully recovered." This is called a Timeout Detection and Recovery error message.
Timeout Detection and Recovery (TDR) is a new feature of Windows Vista that attempts to detect problematic situations and recover to a functional desktop without forcing a reboot. Hangs can occur when the GPU is processing intensive graphics operations, typically during gameplay, and nothing is being updated on the monitor. To the user it appears that the system is frozen with no resolution to the problem; in previous operating systems users generally had to wait a few seconds and then reboot.
The TDR error message "Display driver stopped responding and has recovered" lets the user know that the NVIDIA display driver (specifically the "nvlddmkm.sys" file) has been re-initialized and the GPU is reset without requiring a reboot. The only visible artifact from the recovery is a screen flicker, the result of a screen redraw. Note that some older Microsoft DirectX applications may render to a black screen at the end of the TDR, requiring the user to restart these applications.
TDRs are not specific to a single driver problem, and can occur for a variety of reasons. When they occur, diagnostic information is collected in the form of a debug report that is sent to Microsoft through the Online Crash Analysis (OCA) mechanism if the user opts to provide feedback.
NVIDIA encourages users to submit their own bug reports via the NVIDIA Vista Quality Assurance Program, using the keyword "TDR" in the description of the problem. The NVIDIA bug report link is here:
https://surveys.nvidia.com/index.jsp?pi=7498eac864dc1950c8f09e040b4a437a
We understand that many users have expressed frustration with this issue, and we apologize for the inconvenience. Since the NVIDIA v101.41 beta driver release, NVIDIA has been fixing many TDR issues reported by users. Our software team is currently preparing a new driver which will dramatically reduce the number of TDR errors that users have reported on the forums. Thank you for your patience.
More information on TDRs can be found here:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/display/wddm_timeout.mspx
No, its a driver or hardware problem
When nVidia say [i]NVIDIA has been fixing many TDR issues[/i], they really mean [i]NVIDIA has been fixing many bugs in our drivers.[/i].
And indeed they have - my nVidia system is commendably stable.
it's a drive problem nvidia has fixed it i have not had that
what the problem is go's back to lazy vendors who could care less.
and blogers who spread FUD i game with vista i have 4gig's of ram installed and i use nvidia because since AMD bought ATI it has went downhill.
ATI has all ways had driver problems thats one of the biggest reasons i went to voodoo back in the day and tried ati again when VooDoo went under and there drivers were still substandard.
so i went nvidia and have not looked back now when vista came out yes there drivers were half baked. but now they are stable and Adrian loves to think because hes having an issue everyone is having the same issue and that is just not the case.
like one bloger has said on zd-net they write what gets the most feedback and to me that means it does not have to be the truth just so it gets great fights in the feed back.
Ryan Naraine is about the only bloger in zd-net who i trust anymore.
he seem to care about getting the truth out and not sensationalism.
i game with both xp and vista and the ftp rate is the same on both os'es
Comments.
This message is simply indicative of a problem in the display drive, so it's not entirely accurate to say its a similar problem.
I'm running a system with Vista Ultimate, dual BFG 8800 640Mb GTS cards connected to 3 monitors, on a EVGA nForce 680i SLI mainboard. I mainly don't run the cards in SLI mode, because that would limit me to one monitor, but I do sometime switch for gaming.
If I run all the components to spec, its absolutely rock solid stable.
Its worth noting there are a couple of Microsoft (not nVidia!)patches that need to be applied to get this stability, which Windows Update will handle for you, and a performance patch specifically related to dual-SLI'd GPUs, which you need to download and install yourself, as I recall.
Anyway, if I overclock the system, its quite easy to get exactly the error you describe. If I overclock more, then BSODs start to happen. If I keep going, it wont even boot. (This should surprise no one)
My point is, I am running a complex nVidia set up. I have, er, invested a fair amount of research time on DirectX 10 games (specifically World in Conflict), in addition to my normal work, and other recreational activities (recording music) on the PC. At rated spec. its completely solid, and indeed sensible amounts of overclocking can be had too.
If and when games transistion to DirectX 10, you'll need to be on Vista. Its not clear whether DirectX 10 offers compelling advantages over DirectX 9 yet (and maybe Crysis will be a game that starts to answer that question). And it is the case that Vista is slightly slower on the same hardware. These are all good reasons for gamers to consider there options carefully.
You make ATI's drivers sound horrific, but I wonder in practice, how many people actually have affected systems?
And your generalization to include nVidia drivers also seems to be to be totally unwarranted.
Vista and ATI here
I do on occassion have problems with Creative drivers for a XFi-Xtreme Gamer sound card which requires a removal and reinstall of the driver after a month or two, really annoying.
It really is a mess...
RE: Serious ATI bug makes Vista virtually unusable for some
I use a second montor, so suppose I sleep the computer, unplug the monitor, and power the computer back up. The system switches to single monitor mode just fine. Then when I later reattach the second display (even after a complete shutdown), it will start flickering and report a crash in a system dll.
So far the most reliable way to get it to work again has been to reboot into safe mode, tell the computer it has 1 display, reboot again, and then when it reboots, it has BOTH displays working normally.
Virtual Address Space
Have you looked into whether the issue is caused by hitting the virtual address space barrier. See:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3060&p=1
Remember that because Vista's Display Driver Model virtualizes video memory, you run into serious issues when you have a lot of RAM and video RAM. There is a hotfix available that is supposed to fix the issue, see the Anandtech article above.
It's NVIDIA also!
Have you read this:
I assume you otherwise have all updates from Microsoft and latest drivers from nVidia?
Nvidia/Vista
RE: Serious ATI bug makes Vista virtually unusable for some
What astounds me are the number and severity of problems. When is XP going to lose all Microsoft support forcing me to adopt Vista? Maybe the better question is will Vista be a solid and reliable OS by then?
Nothing wrong with Vista,
Muj.
It IS a Vista bug
SNAFU
nVidia
ATI
all frozen up.
Having suffered with nVidia drivers ... I'd really like to know whether the M$ architecture or the graphics developers are at fault here.
Given that my nVidia drivers now seem to be OK (for non-gaming) I'm inclined to think its the latter.
RE: Serious ATI bug makes Vista virtually unusable for some
Vista
this has been my experience too
I have an ATI 800xl PCIe video card. After getting ATI tech support putting me through loops updating BIOS and drivers and swapping out hardware, I sent the card back for RMA repair. No change to the problem.
While the card was in being repaired I used an NVIDEA 8500gt and had no problems, supporting my conclusion that the only problem with my system is ATI's card.
I totally agree with your article. There is a serious flaw with vista and at least some of their cards. This forum: http://www.driverheaven.net/vista-radeon-display-drivers/133188-vista-7-3-display-driver-atikmdag-stopped-responding-error.html
(very long) shows it is not just an isolated problem.
In the end, I have a system that runs xp fine, but is unusable with vista and it is all because of ATI. My video card is still under warranty, but they cannot fix it and won't refund my purchase. To cover their butts they also put this on their support site:
----------------------------
Symptoms:
After installing the Catalyst display drivers and rebooting, the system will give a blue screen (BSoD) error referencing ATIKMDAG.SYS
Cause:
This issue is caused by using a motherboard with a chipset that is unsupported in Windows Vista.
Solution:
Please make sure that the motherboard you are using is listed on Microsoft's Vista Hardware Compatibility List at the following location.
https://winqual.microsoft.com/hcl/ (requires Internet Explorer 6 or higher)
Officially supported motherboards can be found by setting the first dropdown menu to "systems" and then the second drop down menu to "motherboards" or by clicking on "motherboards" under "systems" on the left hand side menu. Only those motherboards that are on the official Microsoft Windows Vista HCL are supported by AMD.
-----------------------------------
So they basically pass the buck and say the problem is my motherboard not supporting their card. Now, it is not on the official list of approved motherboards on the site they refer to , but it works fine with the nvidea card and at my motherboard's site it list several ATI cards that they have tested this board with under vista without issue.
Bottom line....I am no longer an ATI customer and have bought a new NVIDEA card for my system.
Who's passing the buck?
If a company is going to create a device that is going to work with a system, they have to know how the system it is going in is supposed to work. If your system is not on the list, it most likely doesn't perform exactly as the specifications say it should. If the variation of your board from the specifications causes problems with the ATI board, its not ATI's fault... its the fault of your motherboard. The problem isn't that your board doesn't support the ATI card, the problem is that it doesn't support the vista specifications, otherwise it would have been on the list.
Granted, there could be a problem with the ATI drivers or something else, but only guaranteeing compatibility with "officially supported motherboards" isn't passing the buck.
Same here as well