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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
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Snow Leopard to leave PowerPC users out in the cold?

By | June 11, 2008, 11:55am PDT

Summary: LogicielMac has a screenshot that could spell the end of the line for PowerPC users.

LogicielMac (via MacRumors) has a screenshot that could spell the end of the line for PowerPC users.

Snow Leopard to leave PowerPC users out in the cold?

Now, does this apply specifically to the Developer Preview of Snow Leopard, or is this a sign that Apple is making the move to being Intel-only?

Does this drop come too soon (after all, Apple only stopped selling PowerPC systems a couple of years ago), or is it time to draw a line under the PowerPC?

Poll

Is it too soon for Apple to drop PowerPC support?

Thoughts?

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IBM PowerPC, Processors, Semiconductors, Hardware, Components, Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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sounds like it.
doh123 13th Jun 2008
even today, Apple has a low percentage of hardware problems. Just because a bunch hit you, doesn't mean it'll be like that for everyone.

Out of 7 Macs I and my immediate family have owned in the last 7 years, there has been 1 hardware failure, a bad mobo on a brand new G5 Powermac rev1 machine that died within a week of purchase, and was promptly replaced and never had a problem again (still running too, last I heard 2 months ago).
View in thread
0 Votes
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Well, every platform eventually comes to an end
betelgeuse68 11th Jun 2008
It does not mean that because the developer tools are
"Intel only" the environment will be unable to generate
PowerPC binaries, e.g., the gcc compiler can emit binaries
for all manner of CPU architectures.

Apple simply may not want to put in the QA cycles to
insure that its developer tools run on PowerPC machines
given that most likely 95% (or more) of developers who put
out Cocoa binaries probably have an Intel box on their
desktop. Developers are very wont to have the "latest" on
their desktop, more so in Mac OS X.

Even so, a company can't support users of old platforms
forever.

The constant upgrade cycle in technology is nothing new,
take PC gaming where if you don't have last month's uber
video card, your experience with the latest hot Windows
game may be lackluster. As a perfect example, in August
2006 I purchased a $500 nVidia 7950GX2 which featured
dual GPUs and the ability to do SLI. A couple of months
later Relic Entertainment released "Company of Heroes".
Without SLI, CoH rated my system "Poor", with SLI,
"Average".

My point? Cry me a river.

-M
0 Votes
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Bad form to do this in a point rev
RationalGuy 11th Jun 2008
Everyone understands that support for the PowerPC platform must come to an end at some point. This should be a line that Apple draws on a major OS rev (i.e., OS 11), not on a point rev like Snow Leopard. This would be equivalent to Microsoft ending support of old motherboards in an arbitrary Service Pack.

Purely from an accounting perspective it's a smart move to kill support for PowerPC sooner than later. However in terms of treating PowerPC customers fairly, that kind of a move would be poor form -- not that that's ever stopped Apple from making similar business decisions before.
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A Sampling
Harry Bardal 11th Jun 2008
As someone who owns 3 PPC machines I'm one of those
people who should be upset about this?

I'm not. Far from it.

I was given a value proposition when I purchased all 3
machines, and value was returned. It will continue to be
returned with Leopard, and dependable hardware. I'm
looking forward to these new value propositions with the
knowledge that if the record of performance and
dependability is any indicator, I'll get much more than my
money's worth.

Moving technology forward is not something that should
be governed by the Marquess of Queensberry rules. It must
be organic, unfettered and open to breakthrough. Bad
form? Bad form is any false politicking that interferes with
this.
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YMMV
RationalGuy 12th Jun 2008
If I bought a PowerPC with the understanding that it would be supported by OS X, then I would expect that it would be continued to be supported by OS X until the end of the product. That would, in my mind, include Snow Leopard (i.e., OS X SP6).

The focus of Snow Leopard is adding better support for multi-core processing, 64 bit processing, and GPU co-processing. It seems like it draws a clear line in the sand -- the kind of radical change that belongs in a major rev.

Ultimately, maybe it's a trivial thing. Who cares if it says OS X or OS XI on the box, right? But to me, it's misleading to consumers. There will be "Snow Leopard or higher" dependencies as software is written to take advantage of the processing capabilities. For PowerPC users, there would be no upgrade path -- certainly that's not part of the original value proposition. This IS bad form, because the rules do not apply to technological innovation, but rather to customer service.

I have no political agenda here. I own two Macs, three iPods and will be buying the iPhone 3G.
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if....
doh123 13th Jun 2008
if yu bought a PowerPC machine with that type of understanding, then its just your own fault, because no one, not even Apple, ever tried to even imply a claim like that. You having unreal expectations is not Apples fault.

and if you really consider OS upgrades 10.1 - 10.5 to be the same as MS service packs, well you are seriously uninformed and have no clue what your talking about.. which is evident by your weird expectations. This post is so clueless I thought for a moment it was a Cox parody.... it is isn't it?
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Thank you for making my point...
Wolfie2K3 13th Jun 2008
See my post replying to the OP...

And Harry, for the record, it's MARQUIS of Queensbury...
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Isn't this due out some time in 2010?
frgough 12th Jun 2008
If so, then PPC systems will be 4 years old at that point. Maybe a
bit soon to push you out of the upgrade loop, but then again,
your copy of Leopard will still keep on chugging away without any
problems at all.
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Poor to average?
Ben_E 12th Jun 2008
Aside from the points you make (which I agree with whole-heartedly by the way) I'm surprised that CoH ranks your system as poor with a 7950GX2. I got an "average" with an AGP 6800GT! And a single 7900GS ranked "good" and my current 9600GT-OC as "excellent", even in DX10 mode.

Even so, a company can't support users of old platforms forever.

Hear hear!
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But, But... BUT!!!!
Wolfie2K3 13th Jun 2008
The constant upgrade cycle in technology is nothing new, take PC gaming where if you don't have last month's uber video card, your experience with the latest hot Windows game may be lackluster...

Wait a sec... Hold the phone... STOP!

Aren't the Apple faithful always talking about how OSX is superior to Windows because it'll run WELL on an "ancient" G3 box with only 256 MB of RAM? And how with OSX, you don't HAVE to go run out and buy a bunch of hardware upgrades when a new version comes out?

Seems to me that most Mac heads with PPC boxes will find themselves with a rude awakening when Snow Leopard is released. Oh... The abandonment issues!

But have no fear. There'll be plenty of extra sweetened Kool Aid to drink when that day come as the Apple spin meisters will have worked out why dropping support for the PPC is a good (and more importantly, NECESSARY) thing.
0 Votes
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for the same reason....
doh123 13th Jun 2008
for the same reason Apple always said Intel processors sucked, then switched to them... because it was true (was, not is)

Things change... just because in the past OSX ran good on G3s, doesn't mean it will continue that way forever. Just because in the past Intel had sucky processors... well they didn't stay that way forever.
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RE: Snow Leopard to leave PowerPC users out in the cold?
CowLauncher 11th Jun 2008
It is not uncommon for developer previews to run on specific
hardware early on.
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RE: Snow Leopard to leave PowerPC users out in the cold?
DannyO_0x98 11th Jun 2008
Could be, maybe not. It looks like the rumor of release in
Jan. 2009 wasn't accurate (or plans changed). Today, I'd
look for MacWorld for a definitive public answer and the
release date. Maybe.

I'm to the point where I think the zdnet's interest in future
Apple has gone overboard. Unless the point is to draw in
the same folks to say the same thing they said yesterday
about Apple. In that case, never mind.
0 Votes
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Future Apple
Harry Bardal 11th Jun 2008
Fair enough. What would you have us talk about?
0 Votes
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Let's Get You Working on This One, Alfie
DannyO_0x98 12th Jun 2008
Well, how about them Dodgers? ; )

Sorry, I guess I was in a mood yesterday. Apple is being
very vague about processor specs for Snow Leopard:
perhaps more is being said to WWDC participants who are
restricted in what they may reveal to the outside world.

That suggests either the details were not going to play well
and would have stolen focus from iPhone 3G / iPhone OS
2.0, or Apple hasn't decided and wants to hold off
finalizing hard choices until it achieves development goals.

It's pretty clear that to get better performance, they will be
targeting achieving very high utilization of multi-cores. If
that's true, and I'm speculating here, since the vast
majority of PPC systems do not have multi-cores, inclusion
and support in Snow Leopard would be a moot issue.

I've got a free morning: I'll get some entrails to roast, make
sure somebody is checking the tea leaves!
0 Votes
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Wouldn't surprise me if Apple draws a line
Ken_z 11th Jun 2008
They finally cut off "Classic" (OS 9) a
couple of years ago and I can see them
making Snow Leopard a multi-core only
OS. 10.6 would then being about what
Apple & developers can do after optimizing it for multi-core systems.
With the 16TB limit on memory added I
think Apple might be looking at some
very impressive performance in the
future.

As for PPCs and Solo, we have 3 in our
family and I can see upgrading them
over the next 1 to 2 years (with the old
ones going to the grandkids) so I don't
really see a problem for most of us.
Apple will continue to support Leopard
in terms of customer support and
developers will continue to ensure the
apps they want to run on PPCs will
continue to run on them.
0 Votes
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RE: Snow Leopard to leave PowerPC users out in the cold?
nothingness 11th Jun 2008
Well, so much for all the hype about PowerPC. I still remember one of my dear friends who is a Mac nut who was going on and on about how much greater the PowerPC chips were. How ironic...
0 Votes
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AMD
Harry Bardal 11th Jun 2008
Would that be more or less ironic than AMD hype?

Power PC architecture is still better for number crunching.
It's used in the XBox 360, many Macs and IBMs concepts
have evolved into the cell chip which currently runs the
PS3 and the worlds fastest computer.

No, this is a decision based on architecture (multicores),
production volume, and thermal tolerances for smaller
thinner devices. Things evolve, and the fact that Apple now
runs both chipsets concurrently and accommodated a
smooth transition, is a large credit to Apple and OSX.

It would appear your friend the "Mac nut" might know
something you don't.
0 Votes
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Back then, it was true.
frgough 12th Jun 2008
I love how PPC critics think it's still 1995.
0 Votes
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because it was true...
doh123 13th Jun 2008
PowerPCs were better, that why he went on about it. Just because it is not true anymore, doesn't mean that it wasn't true back then.
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Not at all, as long as
mtgarden 11th Jun 2008
Apple continues to provide some security patches.
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They still support...
Stuka 11th Jun 2008
10.3 and 10.4 as far as security fixes go. So they should still support 10.4 and 10.5 once 10.6 comes out.
0 Votes
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PowerPC users: switch to Linux. Or eat cake.
djchandler 12th Jun 2008
Don't turn a decent usable computer into a doorstop. I just installed Debian Etch on a 10 year old P-III for a family member. Runs Flash, Acrobat, Java acceptably. Gets email and browses fine. Just don't tax that old 550mhz CPU. Watching streaming video (Hulu) is too much for it. But do you really need to waste bandwidth on mindless entertainment?

Apple leads the way in e-waste again. Planned obsolescence as a marketing tool is consumerism at its worst. There's no justification for this kind of arrogance. Don't think Jobs belongs to the Sierra Club, or any other "green" organization for that matter.

This is the same old garbage from Apple. It really burns my ...
0 Votes
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My 9 year old PowerMac G3 350
frgough 12th Jun 2008
Runs Tiger beautifully. I upgraded the processor to a G4/450 and
bumped the RAM. My 8 year old iMac can run Tiger on the stock
hardware; I just recently gave it to a young wife whose husband is
serving in Iraq so they can keep in touch via email and chat.

OS X actually does a surprisingly good job of running on older
hardware.
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until Leopard I'd agree
marks055@... 12th Jun 2008
Leopard ran very poorly on a 1.25 GHz G4 Powerbook.
0 Votes
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I guess .08GHz makes a difference, then..
msalzberg 12th Jun 2008
since I run Leopard on a 1.33GHz iBook with no problems.
0 Votes
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I guess I was snakebit with Macs
marks055@... 12th Jun 2008
2 ibooks 2 logic boards and 1 hard drive failure within weeks of warranty expiration. 1 Powerbook 1 logic board (within warranty) 1 hard drive out of warranty. Finally got it running nice installed Leopard ran like crap. I was on the beachball a day plan. Sold it bought a Lenovo Thinkpad (awesome hardware)running Vista and Ubuntu love it!
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sounds like it.
doh123 13th Jun 2008
even today, Apple has a low percentage of hardware problems. Just because a bunch hit you, doesn't mean it'll be like that for everyone.

Out of 7 Macs I and my immediate family have owned in the last 7 years, there has been 1 hardware failure, a bad mobo on a brand new G5 Powermac rev1 machine that died within a week of purchase, and was promptly replaced and never had a problem again (still running too, last I heard 2 months ago).
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Snow Leopard will have no new features....
Eriamjh 12th Jun 2008
That doesn't mean dropping support for PPC.

Idiots.
0 Votes
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THe focus is on multi-core ...
RationalGuy 12th Jun 2008
... which strongly implies no support for PPC, since there is no such PPC chip architecture. It might not mean anything in the short term. Certainly older systems running Tiger and Leopard won't be "obsolete" for a long time. It would appear that any new apps written for Snow Leopard specifically might not be supported (or might run less efficiently) on PPCs.

It might be a similar situation with DirectX 10 which only runs on Vista. You can play most DX10 games on XP, but only through DX9, so you never see the games in "all their glory."

Perhaps apps written with 4 or 8 core processors in mind might run on PPC, but with degraded performance.
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Actually...
Rick_K 12th Jun 2008
Apple had multi-core processors in 2005, but I bet you
didn't know that.

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP37

Processor Dual-core 2GHz PowerPC G5
Dual-core 2.3GHz PowerPC G5
Two dual-core 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
0 Votes
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yes, there were Multi-Core G5s... (nt)
doh123 13th Jun 2008
(nt) = No Text
0 Votes
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Leopard is the least stable OS I've ever used
marks055@... 12th Jun 2008
I heard that comment on "Mac Break Weekly" from one of the panelist, but that was my experience as well. Apple already abandoned the Power PC platform just not officially.
0 Votes
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maybe.. i havent used leopard on a PPC...
doh123 13th Jun 2008
I haven't used Leopard on a PPC, but on my 2.5 year old Macbook Pro, it runs fantastic.
0 Votes
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Apple should improve their hardware quality.
kraterz 12th Jun 2008
The quality of apple's hardware has dropped like a rock, compared to what it was 7-8 years ago. We have a few macs at work and almost every one of them had to be sent in for hardware failures.

Two power books were down, one with a keyboard failure and the other with a dead motherboard. One iMac was down with a faulty screen and the power mac was down with a fried hard disk. The king of destruction was our macbook pro, with, count it, five seperate failures one after the other - a battery failure, screen failure, superdrive failure, ethernet failure and a fried motherboard.

In the rare instance of us buying a mac these days we have no choice but to get the (expensive) extended warranty.

Their software has improved a lot but their hardware? You couldn't pay me enough to take it off their hands.
0 Votes
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Apple should drop Power PC immediately
tracy anne 12th Jun 2008
Linux for Power PC will replace it.
0 Votes
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I really hope they do more than that.
doh123 13th Jun 2008
I hope Snow Leopard actually will only work on Intel 64bit chips. It would really be cool if they killed off all 32 bit support, as well as all PPC support. Yes that means only 1 of my 3 Macs could actually run Snow Leopard (none are PPC)... but thats fine with me, it would help let them make Snow Leopard a better product. 64 bit intel chips should be a good basis for another 10 years of products.

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