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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
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Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' tracking ... maybe ...

By | April 25, 2011, 12:10pm PDT

Summary: MacRumors has an email purporting to be from Apple CEO Steve Jobs. In the alleged email, Jobs dismisses the whole issue in three sentences.

MacRumors has an email purporting to be from Apple CEO Steve Jobs. In the alleged email, Jobs dismisses the whole issue in three sentences:

A MacRumors reader sent Jobs the following email:

Steve,

Could you please explain the necessity of the passive location-tracking tool embedded in my iPhone? It’s kind of unnerving knowing that my exact location is being recorded at all times. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me before I switch to a Droid. They don’t track me.

Jobs ‘responds’ with the following:

Oh yes they do. We don’t track anyone. The info circulating around is false.

Sent from my iPhone

What do you think? Is this actually Jobs? If it is, what do you think it means?

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Topics

Steve Jobs, Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, MacRumors, E-mail, Online Communications

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
non-biased 4th May 2011
@Gis Bun It has not been proved that Apple is tracking anybody. The iPhone and iPad track where they have been but Apple doesn't receive this data so they are not tracking anybody.
View in thread
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
UrNotPayingAttention 25th Apr 2011
I thought SJ was on leave?

Even still, I don't believe this exchange took place whatsoever.
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It could be real and Steve Jobs could be lying,
Will Farrell 25th Apr 2011
it could be fake and doesn't matter, or it could be real and Steve Jobs is telling the truth.

OK that last one is highly improbable, bordering on downright hilarious, but the first two have a shot at being true!
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
kenosha77a 25th Apr 2011
@Will Farrell

I suspect that if this email is legit, than SJ told the truth. (Too much at stake to lie and nothing to gain.)

However, the email statement, "...We don't track anymore..." could be true even if that action took place mere seconds before that email was posted. (That email statement doesn't say much under close scrutiny except to state that the type of tracking referred to is no longer being done by Apple.)

IMO, Apple will need to officially address this issue with some sort of patch or iOS update.
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"anyone" not "anymore"
archerjoe 25th Apr 2011
@kenosha7777

I read it that way at first, too. Check the message - it's "anyone" not "anymore".
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
noagenda 25th Apr 2011
@kenosha7777

... anyone ... We don't track anyone ... not anymore.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
kenosha77a Updated - 25th Apr 2011
@archerjoe and @noagenda

Thanks for the correction.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Fletchguy 26th Apr 2011
@kenosha7777

If it was him he pulled an Obama where he used no facts and skirted the question directly given to him. Yes most companys as far as cell phones track but that info is upfront if you read all your documentation but most send this info to a secured firewalled server that needs a warrant to access if even then. Apple tracks by the minute keeping that info on the phone in a file easily unsecured on the device for basic hacker and non hackers to access leaving the user exposed without even knowing it was done.Things like android have you opt in ie you turn the gps location on for navigation or to use certain apps. A stock phone would only have location info occasionally sent to the service provider linmked more to signal sending then tracking.
  • Flagged
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Actually Jobs (fake or not) tells the truth
DeRSSS 25th Apr 2011
@Will Farrell: in the log file, there is no phone/user ID is stored; and it only keeps information about the latest time when coordinates of certain celltower/hotspot were checked. And when "Location services" are on, only information from this file is transmitted and nothing else. So Apple can not see which phone was near cell tower/hot spot, it only can see the latest data about coordinates that needed to keep the database for speedy Assisted-GPS location corrections.
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@Denisr, rubbish
guihombre 25th Apr 2011
"in the log file, there is no phone/user ID is stored"
Oh but they are sent too.

"And when "Location services" are on,"
i.e. When the hardware to track people is powered up, or in other words WHENEVER THEY CAN.

"it only can see the latest data about coordinates that needed to keep the database for speedy Assisted-GPS location corrections"

It's interpolated location with timestamps and all and none of this is useful in cell tower fix since it is a sample of location not a cache of a few of the most recent cell towers as it is on other platform.

"Whilst researching mobile data Allan stumbled upon a directory containing longitudes, latitudes and timestamps. Initial thoughts were that the data was just a few days worth of content, maybe from the cache. It turned out, however, that the data was around a years worth of data."

"The phone also recorded WiFi data including latitudes and longitudes, which weren't particularly accurate, along with mac addresses with timestamps. The pair hasn't quite figured out when or what triggers the data to be recorded.

"The phone was tracking around 100 data points per day and the file had been moved between multiple devices, initially starting on an Iphone 3GS. The start of this tracking seemed to be linked with the update to IOS 4. What's even more worrying is that the data wasn't encrypted."

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2045261/apple-iphone-tracks-movements#ixzz1KZVuDEwb
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No, IDs are *not* sent when Location services are on
DeRSSS Updated - 25th Apr 2011
@guihombre: No, IDs are *not* sent when Location services are on. Please do not make up things.

And yes, the log file is cache of most recent coordinates of cell towers/hotspots, please do not confuse it with the most recent cell towers/hots spots the phone was near to.

The logging does not care however recently or not certain cell tower/hot spot was near to the device. The goal is to collect latest coordinates so these could be compared to Apple's Assisted-GPS database (before iOS 3.2, Apple used two third-party bases for that) -- thus the database would be updated properly.

At no stage of this process any of this data is tied to ID of the device.
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Should not be kept for so long and not be removeable like it is now!
Tholian_53 26th Apr 2011
@denisrs Unfortunately that isn't the point. The file is on the device and is accessible and stores far more data for far longer than it needs to to accomplish it's purported task. It is also backed up to i-tunes when you do that. Why is it kept so long? Such information should "never" be kept on a phone or computer and if it "must be" to accomplish something you might find desirable (if getting ads thrown at you is desirable) then it should get rid of it as quickly as possible.
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How do you know?
Zorched 26th Apr 2011
@denisrs
That the data isn't sent? Communication with the tower and the destination host includes a header. How do you know that your information isn't added at time of transmission? Have you packet sniffed wireless data being sent to verify that there isn't any other information added to the stream?
I don't know myself, but I am curious as to the information you have that allows you to be so adamant.
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Sending data to Apple isn't a major concern
boomchuck1 26th Apr 2011
A bigger concern, I would think, as the iPhone becomes more common in the enterprise is that anything on the phone is legal property and discoverable by your employer. If they want to look at this info then where you go after work, on your lunch, etc. will be available to them. I can understand that seeing your location during business hours may be no issue, but do you really want your boss to know your movements after work and on the weekend?
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Pete "athynz" Athens 26th Apr 2011
@guihombre The INQUIRER? Really? And the article you linked too says NOTHING about phone/ user ID... more FUD from the Apple Haters
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
cybr2th@... 26th Apr 2011
@denisrs
Your missing the point. The file exists and gives ANYONE with reasons (good or bad) to know *about* where you've been and a easy way to tell that.
I dont really care if Steve Jobs has access to it or not. I *do* care about police/spouse/boss/stalker/opposing attorney having it.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Cylon Centurion 25th Apr 2011
You're holding wrong. Duuuuuuuuuuuuh.
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You are misquoting; Jobs never wrote "you are holding it wrong"
DeRSSS 25th Apr 2011
@Cylon Centurion 0005: he wrote [if antenna problem is bad for you then] "hold it differently".

And, by the way, Apple gave away free "bumpers" for months, but less that 2% buyers ever asked for this. So that "Antennagate" was as pointless as the new "Trackinggate".
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Droid101 25th Apr 2011
@denisrs
Every iPhone user I know says the antenna problem was real. They just don't hold their phones like that anymore to avoid it.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Pete "athynz" Athens 26th Apr 2011
@denisrs Exactly - in a month or so this will also be found to be entirely overblown.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
cybr2th@... 26th Apr 2011
@denisrs So that "Antennagate" was as pointless as the new "Trackinggate".
Consumer Reports begs to differ.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
non-biased 4th May 2011
@Droid101 Of course they all say that. Guess what, every iPhone 4 owner I know (myself included) says they can't duplicate the issue. Will you believe me? Probably not but of course you are such a small minded Apple hater that why would anybody put any value in your statements regarding anything Apple.
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So, is the media missing the REAL issue?
Freddy McGriff 25th Apr 2011
The media keep referring to this as a privacy issue. With the conversion of dataplans to buy what you use and eliminating unlimited plans, it now becomes a fraud and theft issue. All that tracking takes bandwidth, right? And it is bandwidth I would be charged for but not using for purposes that benefit me?

I think that is the bigger issue here.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
samalie 25th Apr 2011
@Freddy McGriff You are making an assumption...that Apple is trtacking you (and not just your phone).

While I don't find this "tracking" to be appropriate, all information to date suggests that this information is NEVER sent out from your phone...so no bandwidth, no fraud, and no Apple watching your every move ala 1984.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Freddy McGriff 25th Apr 2011
@samalie

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17908526

And it is not just iPhone but Androids too.
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Message has been deleted.
Rick_K Updated - 26th Apr 2011
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What is your obsession with Windows Phone and Android phones
Mister Spock 25th Apr 2011
@Rick_K
You constentlly bring them up into conversations that have nothing to do with them.

Viewing this logicaly one would have to assume that your iPhone experience is not as good as you claim it to be, as many would view your obsession with WP7 as envy?
plain
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Not even a sick Jobs would have such a lame reply.
Johnny Vegas 25th Apr 2011
Although given the truth behind the tracking even a genuine Jobs reply would still be quite lame. Both droid and iphone build a log tracking the phones location multiple times a day. This is available for apple/google and any malware app to send to any server they wish at any time they wish. If you dont like this you have 3 choices, dont take your phone with you, turn it off until youre somewhere you dont mind being known, or buy a windows phone.
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We do it by PFM
Robert Hahn 25th Apr 2011
@Johnny Vegas
Unless Windows phones provide substantially slower location-based services, in some cases taking 12 minutes just to find you on a map, then it's only a matter of time before someone reports finding the same sort of location database on Windows phones.

That's because location data on cell towers is among the best ways to speed up getting a 'fix' on where you are, especially in urban areas where GPS signals bounce off buildings and interfere with one another.

The idea that there is no benefit to the user in collecting this data is just wrong. People expect these location services to work. They expect to bring up a map and see where they are; now, not in 12 minutes when the GPS system in the phone fully wakes up.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
noagenda 25th Apr 2011
@Robert Hahn


Our resident Apple flag waiver densirs seems to say different. Didn't you get a copy of the script? I see Will and Johnny got their MS script just fine ....
"And when "Location services" are on, only information from this file is transmitted and nothing else. So Apple can not see which phone was near cell tower/hot spot, it only can see the latest data about coordinates that needed to keep the database for speedy Assisted-GPS location corrections. "
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@Robert Hahn, rubbish
guihombre 25th Apr 2011
That's rubbish, it's interpolated location, not the cache of the latest known towers. It's historic data not current data.

Saying that Windows phones would provide substantially slower first fix times if they DIDN'T do this is BS.

They should not be recording this, they are, they have no answer as to why.
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We ain't got no steenking towers
Robert Hahn Updated - 25th Apr 2011
@guihombre
it's interpolated location, not the cache of the latest known towers.
It is a cache of tower locations. I know this because I opened the db file in a data base viewer (Navicat) and copy-and-pasted a sample of the coordinates into Google Earth. One set of them involved a trip I made regularly to a medical clinic in a city about 20 minutes away. Some of the closest sets of coordinates to the medical center were along the Interstate on the way there. When I opened up Streetview, I could see the cell towers in the field of view at the coordinates in the data base.

No set of coordinates, anywhere in the data base, was actually at the medical clinic I visited, although there was one along a major street to the South, and a little to the West. I Streetviewed that, but didn't see any cell tower. Guess what? We happened to drive past that street on the Interstate on Sunday, and there was the cell tower.

Do not tell me that the coordinates in the data base table named "CellLocation" are not cell towers. I've plotted the data to eight decimal digits, and seen the cell towers.

Saying that Windows phones would provide substantially slower first fix times if they DIDN'T do this is BS.You need to read up on "assisted GPS". Without assistance, GPS can take 12 minutes just to figure out where it is. Since we know that Windows phones do not take 12 minutes to find themselves on a map, and we know that Microsoft cannot perform supernatural acts, we can safely conclude that Microsoft is performing assisted GPS just like everyone else does. UPDATE: The HTC Surround, which is a WP7 device, is listed by Wikipedia as an "Assisted GPS" device.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
non-biased 4th May 2011
@Robert Hahn There would have to be more than a dozen or so people using WP7 devices for it to be worth anybodies time to look for the data on the device wink
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
samalie 25th Apr 2011
@Johnny Vegas What kind of shill crap is that..."Buy a windows phone"...

Last I checked nobody has shown that WinPhone doesn't do the same thing. You're spreading FUD.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
noagenda 25th Apr 2011
@samalie

Problem is how do you prove the negative? After all, one can always argue that the absence of a logger being found doesn't prove one doesn't exist but just well hidden.
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Message has been deleted.
Rick_K Updated - 25th Apr 2011
  • Flagged
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Rick_k, why are you attempting
Mister Spock 25th Apr 2011
@samalie
to transpose your issues onto others.

You are always one of the first to do exactlly what you blame others for doing.

plain
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Rick_K 25th Apr 2011
Why attach a ?Gate? to it? Sounds more like making a mountain out of a molehill, again?
The carriers track everywhere you go, from what I have read this only compares strength on cell towers.
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Message has been deleted.
Droid101 Updated - 25th Apr 2011
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But there is hope
use_what_works_4_U 25th Apr 2011
@Droid101
With the long and continued history of drive by hate, you seem to be catching up.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
jorjitop 25th Apr 2011
Apple does not need to track its users. It is already one of the most profitable companies in the world, just on the basis of selling hardware and software.

The suggestion of the emailer that he would switch to Android is ludicrous. Android was created by Google as another way to spy on its users. Google only makes money from advertising and can make more money the more it knows about its users. Thus, every app and service it offers is designed to spy on users so as to build up their users' profiles.

Apple simply does not need to care.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
CowLauncher 25th Apr 2011
I believe we will soon learn that "others" do this and much more.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
Muttz 26th Apr 2011
@CowLauncher Agreed. My first thought when I heard about this, was, "How much data is Android collecting?" Android IS Google's O/S, after all. I remember reading an article about the Streetview cars using Kismet to record the location of wireless APs. Those people definitely didn't agree to anything in an EULA.

Although the iPhone data hasn't been used for anything yet, who knows what would have been done with it if this hadn't been discovered.
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I don't think this is really an issue
rdwollenberger 26th Apr 2011
It seems to me Apple answered all of these questions in a 13 page memo to a senator last year. They described what they do, how they do it, how they inform users of what they are doing, and make the user say OK to doing it. If you want the any smartphone and all it's cool features there HAS to be a way for the system to know where the phone is.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
DotWhat 26th Apr 2011
I think reading this post was a waste of my time.
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
windozefreak 26th Apr 2011
If it was indeed Jobs, then he is saying in words what Apple has be saying in silence. Go get bent!!
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Errr.....
Gis Bun 27th Apr 2011
Probably fake.... How could Jobs deny when it's been proven?
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RE: Steve Jobs responds to 'Applegate' ... maybe ...
non-biased 4th May 2011
@Gis Bun It has not been proved that Apple is tracking anybody. The iPhone and iPad track where they have been but Apple doesn't receive this data so they are not tracking anybody.

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