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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
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What does it mean that we are surprised that Windows 7 is so good?

By | May 18, 2009, 6:18am PDT

Summary: Over the past few months I’ve read article after article gushing with praise over how good Microsoft’s Windows 7 is. To be honest, I’ve written several gushing pieces myself. But what does this torrent of praise for Windows 7 say about previous incarnations of the Windows OS?

Over the past few months I’ve read article after article gushing with praise over how good Microsoft’s Windows 7 is. To be honest, I’ve written several gushing pieces myself. But what does this torrent of praise for Windows 7 say about previous incarnations of the Windows OS?

Now, let me get one thing straight here, I’m not trying to suggest that the praise directed at Windows 7 isn’t justified in any way, because I think that it is. I’ve handled a number of pre and post beta 1 builds and I’ve been thoroughly impressed by how fast, stable and usable Microsoft has made the new OS. By the time the code got to the release candidate stage there really wasn’t much more that we could have expected from Microsoft.

So, Windows 7 deserves the praise that it’s getting … but …

There’s an odd difference in how I view Windows compared to how I view other operating systems, such as Mac OS and Linux. When I’m faced with a new Windows release, I’m usually already looking ahead to the inevitable service pack that Microsoft will release to fix problems and refine the OS. However, when I handle a new Linux distro or Mac OS release I expect the OS to be finished. I certainly don’t expect to have to wait a year for a service pack to come out in order to see performance or stability hit acceptable levels.Good performance and stability is just something you expect … from any OS … other than Windows.

Given all the hype surrounding Windows 7, and the constant drip feed of leaked builds via P2P, a lot of people have already managed to get their hands on Windows 7. However, it’ll still be interesting to see how the new OS is received by “everyone else.” The general public are much quicker to pass judgment and usually a lot harsher than IT pros and power users (who are happier to mess about with workarounds and tweaks). It’s with the general release that Windows 7’s hardware and software compatibility will be put to the ultimate test, and early reviews will make or break the OS.

Has Microsoft finally turned a corner? Can we now expect a workable OS right from the RTM stage without having to wait for SP1 to come out? Is this pressure coming internally from Microsoft or is the pressure coming from Apple and Linux?

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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Are you sure
Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 Updated - 8th Jun 2009
you weren't just talking to a six pack? I've heard plenty of gripes from the unwashed masses. They all had eyes, mouths, walked upright, and spoke fluent English though...
View in thread
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I disagree.
ShadeTree 18th May 2009
I believe that technical writers such as yourself are much harsher then the public at large. You guys were determined to run Vista into the dirt and did!
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Come on, Joe Sixpack does not read or care about what techies are writing.
DonnieBoy 18th May 2009
Joe Six Pack just did not like Vista. That simple.
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oh yes they do!
eggmanbubbagee@... Updated - 18th May 2009
it trickles down. People didn't like Vista because of UAC and the superficial changes that put things in different places and they didn't like it that their old hardware got busted. Too few techies, who knew better, explained to them why these changes were occurring, instead the sticks in the mud and the anti-MS crowd piled on this perception and that piling on stigmatized Vista keeping it from ever doing what XP did, which was to eventually overcome the early troubles and become accepted.
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For once.....
Badgered 18th May 2009
Come on, Joe Sixpack does not read or care about what techies are writing. Joe Six Pack just did not like Vista. That simple.

For once (and I can't believe I'm typing this), I partially agree with Donnie.

Though I would add, that some probably heard from their techie friends who had read the bashing articles, and formed their opinions from there.
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Also...
slaskoske 19th May 2009
Even if Joe Sixpack didn't read the articles or even hear from the friends, there was plenty of commentary on the news or bashing from the Mac ads (hard to believe) that definitely influenced public opinion.
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And if you were to ask them why they couldn't tell you.
ye 18th May 2009
I had this very discussion with "joe six pack" just this weekend.
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They have no problem telling me why...
i8thecat 4th Jun 2009
Perhaps they don't have a technical bone in thier bodies, but they know when something sucks. It's slow, UAC nags them with messages that they don't understand, they don't like the interface and menus, etc. etc.

You know.. All of you lost-in-denial MS brown nosing fan-bois are a real piece of work. Technology experts and 98% of the world is united in the conclusion that Vista sucks donkey butt.

So it's all the fault of the media.. Or... It's a hugh conspiracy... Yeah right... Grow a friggin brain morons. Vista Sucks, deal with it. Vista also set the bar so incredibly low that people are shocked and suprised that Windows 7 doesn't sucks that much. And that is just plain lame.
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Are you sure
Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 Updated - 8th Jun 2009
you weren't just talking to a six pack? I've heard plenty of gripes from the unwashed masses. They all had eyes, mouths, walked upright, and spoke fluent English though...
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Agree
Axsimulate 18th May 2009
I'm sitting here at a company that has offices in the US, London, China, Canada, India, Mexico, Singapore, Middle East, etc. with thousands of PCs, and they are sticking with XP/XP64 with no plans to move to Vista at all. There are a few Vista test computers floating around, but they are not received well at all. Some like the new graphics, but overall, they just don't like it. Even people that bought new computers for their home with Vista installed grumble about it when asked. They all have some "horror" story to tell. Some legit some not, but what matters is their perception.
Vista burned a lot of bridges for MS, and that is not going to be easy for them to overcome.
Just look at the American auto industry. In the 70's, the American auto industry put out some crappy cars, and now 30 years later, that is still a common belief even though their quality is every bit as good as anything else out there.
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There's a phrase for this. . .
JLHenry 18th May 2009
"One picture is worth a thousand words". I STILL get complaints from the church treasurer about the notebook the church owns that she uses to keep track of things.

It isn't hooked to the internet AT ALL (unless it's at my house for updates), I have have it set not to run any background processes, yet it STILL crawls.

I bumped the Mem to 2 gig. No good. I've optimized it as much as Vista can be, and it STILL crawls. I've turned off the fancy graphics (she prefers the old "classic" look anyway), it STILL crawls.

The treasurer isn't a techie, and this notebook is the only Vista machine she's worked with. Her perception is that Vista is horrible, and when I told her that when the church can afford 7 we'd move to it and she'd see some major improvements, she looked at me like I was nuts . . .

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Is it an HP?
JoeMama_z 18th May 2009
also, turning off Areo will slow a computer down not speed it up.

Vista ain't XP stop treating it as such.
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Huh
rbettencourt@... Updated - 19th May 2009
Turn down the graphics setting will slow it
down?? Are you crazy? Where did you here such
an absurd thing? It might not help turn your
computer into a speed demon but it will
definitely not slow it down by turning it off.
I agree that you cant treat it like XP but come
on lightening the load on not only the video
card but RAM and the CPU cannot slow it down.
Unless of course you can show everyone here
proof of that then stop spreading lye's
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sigh....
JoeMama_z 19th May 2009
In Vista with Aero almost all processing of Windows graphics is offloaded to the GPU. When you turn Aero off you've essentially eliminated a co-processor and all the window graphics must be rendered by the CPU instead of the GPU. Putting an unneeded load on an already stressed processor will make your computer, wait for it, slower.


I heard it on TechNet while, of all the crazy things, adding Vista to my skill set so I don't do stupid things, like disable Aero to speed up a computer.
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No Way
rbettencourt@... 19th May 2009
You read some artical from this website that
said is slows it down. Really, OK well them
some us all a link. and ever if you did give a
link remember it does not make it true just
because some blogger said it is. Test your PC
and find out what works best. I have built my
own PC at home loaded vista 64 bit and run with
all the Aero features enabled. My work PC on
the other hand is the lowest end dell we could
get with vista and it barely meets the specs to
run the Aero feature. So it runs much better
with it off. Trust me I tried for a long time
to deal with my fancy graphics until I was no
longer able to deal with it and since I needed
to get my work done I had to shut it down.

So I do not base my knowledge on what others
say I do my own testing and make my own
observations.
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Here you go:
wolf_z 20th May 2009
http://www.cnet.com.au/speed-up-vista_p2-339283266.htm

The relevent section:

"Running Aero is actually a good thing in terms of system resources. In older versions of Windows, the more graphics displayed, the slower the computer. So you might think that Windows Classic, which has the fewest bells and whistles, will give you the fastest performance. But that's not exactly true for Vista.

Both the Windows Aero and Windows Vista Basic (a.k.a. Aero Lite) use your computer's graphics card, not the computer's processor, to do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the display. Using one of those -- as opposed to Standard or Classic -- actually lets your computer do less work."

Also the summary of the same article:

"To review if your computer and your version of Vista support Aero, the following settings will speed up Vista:

Fastest: Use Windows Vista Basic.
Faster: Use Windows Aero with transparency turned off.
Fast: Use Windows Aero.
Slow: Use Windows Standard or Windows Classic."

Microsoft themselves say leave Aero turned on because it uses the graphics co-processor, NOT your CPU.

You really do need to use Vista tuning, NOT XP tuning to judge how to tune Vista you know...
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OK Thanks for the link
rbettencourt@... Updated - 20th May 2009
http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/help/83ec0ffe-ee04-4d53-8b87-25d1f05c954e1033.mspx

Funny because Microsoft recommends if you want
to speed up your PC you can disable all those
fancy graphical effect which only add eye
candy. Hmmm interesting. By the way why in the
world would disabling aero force your PC to use
the CPU over the GPU???? That is the stupidest
thing I have ever heard. There are no facts to
support that. So how would you know if your
screen was being rendered from the CPU instead
of the GPU??? Lets all think logically here if
you have a GPU and the drivers where installed
correctly and the video card had a GPU then it
would use it regardless of what you told
windows to do.





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You are crazey to think that Lowering Video settings can't slow a PC down.
Ez_Customs 7th Jun 2009
You obviously don't have a lick of knowlege about how most operating systems work. It has to do with the Graphics cards optimized capabilities. All Graphics cards are designed to operate at certain resolutions and eye candies. If you disable them then the CPU will probably have more on the load to calculate the output.


Because of this setting video settings to the very lowest, will slow a PC down, because it puts a load on the CPU that wasn't there in the first place, and was handled by the Graphics adapter.

"Doesn't have a techie bone in the body" Cracks me up. I am probably not the only one that thinks that you fit this tag!!
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I have...
fairportfan 19th May 2009
...turned off Aero in W7 RC1, and, while performance was acceptable on my homw-brew system before i did, it's slightly better now.

Although i didn't turn off Aero for that reason - i just didn't like it. One bit.
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If you load Linux MINT...
User07734 19th May 2009
on that same laptop, you won't have to spend any money, you won't have to wait, and they'll stop looking at you like you're crazy.

linuxmint.com

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And...
fairportfan 19th May 2009
...will it still run the apps the church treasurer needs?
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And And
Northlite 20th May 2009
Will it automatically install all the drivers for the laptop like video, network, sound etc - maybe better then Ubuntu does on my Gateway laptop?
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Depends.
SpikeyMike 27th May 2009
It depends on the applications - if they are written decently, they should. However - the church people aren't going to bother learning how to install/configure WINE.

That's where YOU come in. Once it is installed, they click to launch, just like before.
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Ah... Well....
Jkirk3279 20th May 2009
Have you thought of installing XP on the church's notebook?


With 2GB RAM and SP2 it ought to run quite a bit faster.


It IS a bit ironic that so many big companies are sticking with or
actually going to XP, even on new hardware.

But then, as a previous poster mentioned, it's about perception.

Imagine our disbelief if Chrysler had announced they had an all
electric sedan coming out in quantity for $20,000.

We just wouldn't believe it was true. We know Chrysler isn't really
about innovation, any more than Microsoft is.

So if reviewers are giddy about Windows 7 being actually GOOD, well I
guess it's just the sheer surprise of it.
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Odd Analogy
Legal_Beagle 19th May 2009
While somewhat off-topic, it seems to me that analogizing the Microsoft operating systems to American cars of the 1970's is rather odd reasoning. Chrysler is a corporation on life support, and it's not because "their quality is every bit as good as anything else out there." No Chrysler product is recommended as a quality vehicle in the latest Consumer Reports auto issue. The other American automobile manufacturers do only marginally better. If the best one can say about Microsoft products is that they are analogous to the products of the American automobile industry, then one must reconsider whether holding Microsoft stock in one's portfolio is a good idea.
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@Legal_Beagle
Axsimulate 19th May 2009
You missed my point. The point was that any company that wrongs a customer will have a very good chance of losing them and will have a hard time getting them back.
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Consumer Reports' advice...
fairportfan 19th May 2009
...on cars is not the first - or even the second or third - place i'd look for anything other than specific issues with the specific cars they test. (That is, theindividual cars, aactually tested - not generalising to the model as a whole.)

CU has long exhibited bias against the auto industry, and an inability to comprehend exactly what a car is and why people need one.

I also take their reviews of electronic items with a shaker-full or two of salt, until i have conformation from other sources; electronics is my fioeld (as a tech), and i have often found their methodologies and interpretatons suspect or obviously flawed, to the point that htey have highly-rated audio equipment that everyone i know (audiophiles and causal users) agree sounds mediocre to bad.
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Consumer Reports
Jkirk3279 20th May 2009
Oddly enough, I agree.

I used to read CU and then go out to find their Best Buy
recommendation.

Couldn't find it. Ever.

And then they ran the Mac vs. PC article and ignored the out of box
experience.

Rather than starting from scratch and having users literally open the
boxes they tested systems already set up by experts.

That rather conveniently ignores a major advantage of Apple
computers, especially to first-time computer owners.

I began to suspect their conclusions after that.
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bs !
pcguy777 19th May 2009
Ive heard plenty of people like it after the messed with it for a few weeks...
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Exactly...
Dave32265 19th May 2009
Can't begin to count the people who have called me after they bought new laptops and asked me to get rid of vista in favor of something else. Let's face it, vista was a miserable failure.
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Yeah
TranMan 19th May 2009
Just look at what exists. If Vista is so great, why does Win 7 even exist? The fact that it is called Win 7 instead of Vista SP2 is telling, too.

MS tried to do damage control with their lame ads. And they tried with SP1. In the end, the truth is that Vista was such a stinker that they even had to distance themselves from the name.

The bottom line is that Vista was, and is a POS. MS knows it. Non-fanboys know it. Stick a fork in it--Vista's done.

BTW, I loaded up the Win 7 RC, and like it a lot, so my comments on Vista are not based upon the fact that I can't deal with change.
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Vista RTM was bad.
I am Gorby 19th May 2009
I found that SP1 made Vista usable for me. Prior to SP1 it took too long to start and close down.

I don't buy operating systems. I simply use what comes on the PC I buy.

Hmm! Tellingly, I recently built a PC out of spare parts (the ones left over after upgrading my PC, many times). I went out and purchased WinXP and loaded that, rather than Vista. Even though the machine was able to run Vista - Core 2 Duo e6600, 2 Gig RAM, nVidia 8800 GTS.
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Really?
flboffin 1st Jun 2009
So, if XP is so great, why does Vista exist? I've been using Vista Home Premium for almost 2 years, and while I wouldn't call it great, it's better than XP. (Caveat: Run as Admin, suppress OAC.) When an app crashed on XP, it took the OS with it 90% of the time. On Vista, app crashes are 95% survivable (without a reboot). Vista takes 1 minute to boot up, just like every version of Windows since 95. I've had maybe 5 Vista crashes so far, 2 of which were caused by hardware problems.
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Oh Come on Donnie... Quit being at TARD...
Wolfie2K3 20th May 2009
Joe Sixpack never even sat down and gave Vista a look, let alone a fair shake.

The Mojave Experiment was proof of that.

Joe Sixpacks just ask their friends who ask their friends who ask their friendly neighborhood computer geeks who read something on the internet. And in all of this NONE of them ever even looked at the OS for themselves.

But when they sat down and were given a demo, they suddenly thought it was pretty darn cool. That goes to show their impressions of Vista were based on rumors, inuendo, and whispers in the dark - not on personal experience.

How can you not like something if you've never actually TRIED it?
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The Mojave Experiment was a fraud.
i8thecat 4th Jun 2009
Are you really that gullible??? I don't buy that Mojave Experiment at all.... That was rigged with select individuals who were hand picked. They buttered them up, threw them in a controlled environment and gave them a performance-tweaked version of windows 7 and pressured them.

If you buy that Mojave Experiment, then I have a few bridges to sell you cus you are an idiot.
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Re: The Mojave Experiment was a fraud.
rkinne01 6th Jun 2009
Can you prove that? Where's your evidence?
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Windows Vista is NOT all that good
pdef@... 4th Jun 2009
Yes, us non-techies do care what is written.

After reading a lot of articles I formed some opinions based on them, found out by experience that Vista is both better than I hoped (new features I like) and worse than I feared (software and hardware incompatibilities with the 64-bit version pre-loaded on my new HP computer).

Vista uses more hardware resources than I would like and not enough choices for default programs. For example, my ISP email program was not listed and I had to configure Windows Mail to be able to send mail by clicking a hyperlink. It took a third-party program to fix this.

I have had insolvable problems with my IEEE 1394 connections using external Western Digital HDDs. The driver does not run correctly and has not been fixed in SP2. WDC tells me they have had problems with their 1394 HDDs and Vista 64-bit, but are relying on MS to write drivers....and MS hasn't.

My HP Lightscribe drive that I salvaged from the old computer didn't work properly at first. Fortunately MS Tech Support was very good and we found a work-around. But I am astonished it took a Hotfix to get a new dvd drive to work.

I have heard similar complaints from many dvd/cd-rom/camcorder users who can't get their devices recognized in Vista. For some of them, even the Hotfix didn't work.

I have also had some programs that will not run under 64-bit even in compatibility mode. Fortunately they are not critical programs.

All in all, Vista is not a well-designed OS comparted to previous products, and from what I read about Windows 7, it puts Vista (easily) to shame.

For me the only question is which version of Windows 7.....
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The public at large does not have a benchmark
Michael Kelly 18th May 2009
to compare Vista to. To them, if it works it's fine. Any unexplained delays are just chalked up to a computer doing what it has to do. If you don't know how other operating systems compare on the same system, you can't be critical.

That said, I do agree that Vista has gotten a far worse rap than it deserves. But that doesn't mean it did not deserve some criticism, because it did. And that does not mean that even after it fixed most of its first year problems that it because a dream OS, because it did not. It's an acceptable product, and it does not deserve (at this point) any more criticism than that, but nor does it deserve more praise than that.
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The non tech public...
storm14k 18th May 2009
...was crapping on Vista just as much as the tech blogs. I have a relatively non-tech friend that just told me he has removed Vista from his house period because its still causing him too many problems. Now watch a TECHIE follow this up asking what problems he saw and claiming that everything was fixed. That will only prove the point. The average consumer is harsher and has a longer memory than the techie.
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Yeah right
Richard Flude 18th May 2009
"You guys [technical writers] were determined to run Vista into the
dirt and did!"

Vista had no problems when it was released?

MS apologists are amazing. Not even MS claims Vista issues were just
perception (they do claim that it unfairly continues to suffers from this
initial bad perception).

Adrian writes:

"Good performance and stability is just something you expect ? from
any OS ? other than Windows."

So true. Measure a product by what it does, not the talk.
I hope MS can finally deliver a product that works. I'm sick of windows
users whining all the time;-)
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Bad rap?
pdef@... 4th Jun 2009
I think the real reason Vista got a justly deserved bad rap at first is because it was not truly a finished product when initially released to the public. MS deserves MUCH criticism for this....imagine if you bought a new TV that would not get all channels or work correctly with your cable provider until the service pack was released a year later. Or if your new car radio, AC, etc. would not work 100% until you got Automatic Updates whenever the maker decided to release them?

I hope MS has learned a lesson with Vista and Windows 7 will really be ready for prime time when it goes on sale.
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The Christ complex
Kaiwai Updated - 18th May 2009
"Boohoo, my product of adoration is being scrutinised"

Windows Vista was an unmitigated disaster - and the reason for it was
20 years of legacy garbage that the Microsoft programmers were
saddled with that ended up requiring them to making major
compromises. It took them another 3 years to keep working on these
legacy issues to finally get those parts working properly as well (GDI+
is now accelerated in Windows 7 for example).

Microsoft could throw out alot of this crap and focus on the new API's
they have provided (including the new, safe Win32 API's they provided
to programmers over 4 years ago) - but they didn't because they lack
a backbone when it comes to making big decisions. They would
sooner hide cowardly in the corner in a foetal position rocking back
and forth hoping it'll all go away.
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roflmao
jdbukis@... 19th May 2009
And you know this because?
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massive backwards compatibility
eggmanbubbagee@... Updated - 18th May 2009
probably makes Windows hard to build and test. Also, unlike OS X, businesses actually depend on Windows to get real business done. There is a whole lot of stuff to get right. This also makes the creation of Windows a giant and unwieldy project.

It also all about Vista - how it wasn't as bad as some said and making up for the echo chamber's piling on and about getting out ahead of the inevitable ABM response, such as the zillions of Apple dollars ready to pounce as soon as 7 really gets out.

I bet you anything the final verdict of history will show that 7 was simply a more polished version of Vista and that Vista wasn't so bad and 7 wasn't so great. The real story here is about how Internet journalism can be such a closed and inaccurate system when it is supposed to be the opposite of that.

To the extent that 7 really is better than Vista clearly MS has felt the pressure from eroding market share and from all the criticism this is a good thing.
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No, Vista will go down in history as another Window ME. Your argument that
DonnieBoy Updated - 18th May 2009
Vista did not really SUUUCK because Windows 7 is based on Vista, and Windows 7 is really good, does not fly. Average users do not care why a particular OS was so bad, or why a newer one is so good.
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re: Another Windows ME
Badgered 18th May 2009
No, Vista will go down in history as another Window ME.

In reputation, maybe. In functionality, not even close.
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@Badgered
Axsimulate 18th May 2009
"In reputation, maybe. In functionality, not even close"

Doesn't matter how, just that it will.
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re: Doesn't matter...
Badgered 18th May 2009
Doesn't matter how, just that it will.

That would depend on who you're talking to.
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@Badgered
Axsimulate Updated - 18th May 2009
"That would depend on who you're talking to.

By and large most people's opinion is that Vista is crap. It doesn't matter if it's not, that's the perception, and that perception is what counts. Win7 may not be able to shake it.

Remember the old saying "The first impression is a lasting impressing"?
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Remember the old saying "The first impression is a lasting impressing"
GAXXIS 19th May 2009
as a little more than average user, can build systems but that's about it. I have to agree with both points. I have been using Microsoft OS's since 3.10.

When vista did first came out, yes i did beta test vista also, i have to agree it WASN'T very user friendly, driver wise and the UAC was a pain in the ass. but with age comes wisdom, and as vista got some REAL WORLD use under its belt the kinks got worked out and it ran in MY opinion very well.

With ALL the time trying to get Win 7 Beta's, RC to BREAK with MY HW/SW I've only seen the BSOD once and that is the on board graphics fighting with the after market graphics card installed. Other than that Win 7 will be the first OS that I Will buy since XP, Vista i tried in beta and also come on the puter I'm using now. The only thing that Might keep me from breaking down the door when it ships to retailers is price, but that not withstanding i WILL get My own Licenced Copy.

IMHO Gaxxis
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GAXXIS:
fairportfan 19th May 2009
I've been running W7 since the first public bets, and the only times i've seen BSOD were when trying to update builds (resulting in reverting to the previous build, after which i did a new install), and when i forgot to tell the WUBI Ubuntu installer that the Windows on the machine was W7 rather than XP, resulting in it botching the GRUB loader install - and a restart in Safe Mode fixed that.

(A lot of installers have the sort of poorly-written version check that assumes that if it ain't Vista, it must be XP; for W7, running those in Vista compatibility mode often fixes the problem.)

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ie8 fix
ie8 fix