ie8 fix
madison

Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
Home / News & Blogs / Hardware 2.0

Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?

By | February 3, 2012, 9:21am PST

Summary: Cheap products or ethical products - you choose!

The petition by watchdog group SumOfUs which asks Apple to “make the iPhone 5 ethically,” got me thinking - how much more would you pay for an “ethical” product?

Could Apple do this? According to SumOfUs, yes:

Can Apple do this? Absolutely. Apple is the richest company in the world, posting a profit margin for the last quarter of 42.4% yesterday. They’re sitting on $100 billion in the bank. According to an anonymous Apple executive quoted in the New York Times, all Apple has to do is demand it, and it’ll happen – “Suppliers would change everything tomorrow if Apple told them they didn’t have another choice.”

Cutting to the chase here, what SumOfUs is saying is that by cutting into that 42% profit margin, or dipping into that cash pile in the back, Apple could afford to make an ethical product. But there would be cost, and inevitably that cost would be passed on down the chain to the consumer.

Side note: How much of a difference would an ethical iPhone 5 make when you consider that pretty much every other bit of consumer electronics is made is similar (or worse) conditions to those that the iPhone are manufacturer in? In reality, this is an industry-wide problem, but it’s being made an Apple issue because of how much money the company is making from its products.

So my question is this - how much extra would you be willing to pay for an ethical iPhone 5? Let’s assume a base model at $199 … how much would you be willing to pay on top of this to have the device built ethically?

Note: If you aren’t the type to buy an iPhone, assume something else costing $199 that you would buy.

Poll

How much extra would you pay for an ethical iPhone 5?

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

More from “Hardware 2.0”

Topics

Petition, Watchdog, Electronics, Apple Inc., Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

Related Discussions on TechRepublic

Did you know you can take part in these discussions with your ZDNet membership?
Ask a Question Start a Discussion
51
Comments
Add Your Opinion

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
rjm56 8th Feb
@Robert Hahn
It seems folks are forgetting that our success through hard work was only possible due to the laws of our Republic. The American factory worker was low paid, worked 6-7 days a week, often kept in dept to the company facilities, and had a good chance of injury. If injured, out you went and tough for you. But they were able to organize and use law to make things better. Sure there were fights etc. but our Republic made the betterment of the worker possible.

They do not have that chance in China and there is no use pretending they do. We sent jobs over there for reducing cost and have tried real hard to pretend the human cost does not exist. Greed for the bottom line for stock payoffs drove it. That makes us culpable and as guilty as the Chinese government. The Chinese govt will only do what it thinks it needs to do to look good while the behind the scenes reality continues.
View in thread
0 Votes
+ -
Nothing
johnfenjackson@... 3rd Feb
If the global vendors behave properly, do cloud properly ... and we can cut out the middle men like banks media moguls and money lenders (AMEX, VISA, ...) ... and especially Apple ... then the cost of computing and media will come DOWN significantly.

I don't think many ZDNET bloggers realise that sad
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Gabriel Hernandez 3rd Feb
Apple is not a standard hardware company, we all know Apple sells superior products, they really care about build quality, design, superior technology and that is why their products are not cheap.
I don't own any MacBook Pro, but I own an iPod Touch, I still find it difficult to get a MacBook Pro or Air because I still can't afford one.
I don't think Apple would change their products to be cheap, that's not how a company like Apple has built on their brand for the past 15 years.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
fldbryan@... 6th Feb
@Gabriel Hernandez What brand? They own a small market niche and are currently top dog in an smaller niche. A 42% profit margin is huge and being built unethically. Being American used to mean we didn't put up with this conduct.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
mrxxxman 6th Feb
@fldbryan@... That's right. Apple could make up the difference in increased cost by lowering their profit margin a little and charging a little more for the device so the additional expense is spread out to both Apple and it's users. Don't put it all on the user by just increasing the price.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Lazarus439Z 7th Feb
@Gabriel Hernandez What does "ethical" have to do with "cheap"??? There is nothing in this article that suggests Apple should or would drop the quality of their products. Actually, it asks just the opposite: how much MORE would one pay for an otherwise identical product that was manufactured "ethically"?
0 Votes
+ -
Bovine Elimination
Robert Hahn Updated - 3rd Feb
I'm not falling for the trick of calling it an "ethical iPhone." In fact I think this is a highly unethical idea being pushed by people who live in la-la-land where their good intentions never have any untoward consequences.

Is it their intention to push China back toward an agrarian economy where the vast majority of the population is tied to subsistence agriculture? That's where this Wonderful Idea goes. And that's if the entire industry picks up on it. If only Apple makes these changes (assuming the Chinese government allows Apple to upend their industrial infrastructure and piss off the other 90% of Chinese factory employees [fat chance -- .ed]), they will create a privileged class of Chinese workers. That's what happens when do-gooders from la-la-land try to make things better without having the slightest idea of the complexities of the problem.

Let the Chinese worry about China. It's their country, they get to industrialize on their own schedule on their own terms. The last thing they need is people from the place that took a century to get where we are now, telling them they have to reorganize their entire society -- as we did -- by this time next year. This is not Doing Good. It is not being ethical. It is trying to force our values on other people who want what we want, and who are smart enough to know that doesn't happen by law and decree. It only happens by hard work. Have we forgotten that we used to work hard? Have we forgotten that no one came along to "help" us by telling us how to organize our society?
0 Votes
+ -
So if Apple insists on better treatment for Chinese workers...
John L. Ries Updated - 3rd Feb
@Robert Hahn
...they might upend the whole society? I agree that it wouldn't be wise to pay people more than they're worth in the local economy, but would better/safer working conditions be a bad thing? How about less pollution generation? What I know I don't want is a large number of wealthy multinationals with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo in China or other third world countries, or importing it here (we've seen this play before and it turns out badly).

I'm also not at all certain that upending a Communist dictatorship would be such a bad thing; nor do I think that an economy where employers do the right thing voluntarily instead of waiting for Big Bad Government to make them (as happened in the West) be a tragedy.

Am I correct that you would have opposed any effort by 19th century do-gooders (and there were lots of them) to avoid buying slave-grown textiles? I assure you that supporters of negro slavery made many of the same arguments that you're making here.

Reply to Bruizer:

I never claimed we were a paragon of virtue. If we were, we'd need many fewer laws. My point was that Western employers did wait until government imposed lots of laws and regulations on them in an effort to force them to do the right thing. We still suffer the consequences of that.

Reply to Robert:

I ask serious questions and all you can do is to retort with a childish insult? Like it or not, we are involved by virtue of the fact that U.S. corporations have exported most of their manufacturing operations to China and the third world. The question is, what do we do about it (both as individuals and as citizens)?

Reply to oncall:

I'll note that economic development in the U.S. was largely accomplished by local entrepreneurs, not foreign investors (though the latter certainly had a role); with a major infrastructure contribution by U.S. taxpayers. My suspicion has long been that foreign investment actually retards the growth of free societies that native entrepreneurship encourages.

Further notes:

A pro-business political climate is a lot easier to sustain if a high percentage of the citizenry are either self-employed or can reasonably expect to be at some point in their working careers. A huge majority of workers who can only reasonably expect to be employees tends to encourage an adversarial relationship between management and labor that spills over into the political realm.

And in a Communist dictatorship like China, where all aspects of life are closely controlled by the Party, individual initiative is downright subversive.
0 Votes
+ -
Employers still don't do the right thing even in the West.
Bruizer 3rd Feb
@John L. Ries

Enron? Subprime lending? You could go on forever. The "West" is far from a paragon of virtue.
0 Votes
+ -
You are so smart!
Robert Hahn 3rd Feb
Your intentions are pure. You mean well. But... it's not your country to manage. It's theirs. Stop trying to practice animal husbandry on human beings. Thank you.
0 Votes
+ -
There is a big difference
oncall 3rd Feb
@John L. Ries

Between "do-gooders" working within a society to bring about positive change and "busy-bodies" thinking they can impose their lofty standards on another culture that predates ours by a few thousand years by holding out a small carrot. Ours standards were brought about by decades of hard work and sacrifice. How could we even hope to impose otherwise, we could not even print enough money to do it given the massive population difference between the US and the developing world.
0 Votes
+ -
As to foreign investment
oncall 3rd Feb
@John L. Ries

I cannot really say. I do recognize however that the wealth we enjoy has come about through time and factors favorable to us such as: abundant natural resources and fresh water, abundant arable land, a limited population that was (in general) well educated and aggressive, favorable government towards business, a lack of significant enemies sharing a common border with us and well as the time of rapid development in which we exist. That's why I find this discussion so amusing. The very thought that paying 10-100-1000 or even 10,000 more for an iPhone or any electronic is going to significantly impact the course of a country of over 1 billion people is, well hubris at best.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
preferred user 3rd Feb
@Robert Hahn
+1 good post . Goes against human nature for the rich and governments
not to exploit the masses that's how they get to govern and become rich.
The two are not mutually exclusive and haven't been throughout history
The rich either govern or they buy and influence governments its all in our history and for the most part will not change .
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
JTONLY Updated - 6th Feb
Total agreement.

Reply to Robert Hahn
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Ryck Marciniak Updated - 6th Feb
@Robert Hahn - if that's the case, would you draw a line anywhere in relation to how human beings are treated in another country? What about child prostitution? Is that another case of it's another country and let their government look after it?

You are being short-sighted in dismissing the efforts of others to allow other people to be treated fairly and safely. Positive improvements have occurred due to these types of efforts, not close to where it should be, but it is progress. Instead, you would prefer to stick your head in the sand, and hope for some foreign government to finally take action. I guess you're not your brother's keeper.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
fldbryan@... 6th Feb
@Robert Hahn That's communist China. Does that mean anything to you?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
rjm56 8th Feb
@Robert Hahn
It seems folks are forgetting that our success through hard work was only possible due to the laws of our Republic. The American factory worker was low paid, worked 6-7 days a week, often kept in dept to the company facilities, and had a good chance of injury. If injured, out you went and tough for you. But they were able to organize and use law to make things better. Sure there were fights etc. but our Republic made the betterment of the worker possible.

They do not have that chance in China and there is no use pretending they do. We sent jobs over there for reducing cost and have tried real hard to pretend the human cost does not exist. Greed for the bottom line for stock payoffs drove it. That makes us culpable and as guilty as the Chinese government. The Chinese govt will only do what it thinks it needs to do to look good while the behind the scenes reality continues.
0 Votes
+ -
So it would be ethical to...
Bruizer 3rd Feb
Simply pull out of China and watch all the wage increases of the last 10 years simply fall apart and GDP/capita collapse?

The Chinese population would all go back to work in farms and work related accidents and death rates would again increase to 1990's levels. Given the suicide rate at FoxConn's facilities are 80% LOWER than the greater part of China, the conditions working there must be better than the conditions of NOT working there.

This would be "ethical" behavior?

Can conditions improve? Heck yes. Are conditions better in working China now than they were 10 years ago? Heck yes. Is it possible to raise conditions overnight? Has not happened yet. It is a slow process to change a mindset of 1,000,000,000+ people.
0 Votes
+ -
An option was missing
oncall Updated - 3rd Feb
Nothing. I would not pay one nickel more. You act as if these costs would be payed by the consumer. Wrongo! The ones paying the costs would be those who can least afford it, the producers on the assembly lines. What, you think because Apple suddenly demands a 40 hour work week Foxconn is just going to double down on its rosters and pay everybody the same? How about a big fat pay cut all around to make up for the need to hire two people to do the former work of one. Or better yet invest more into automation and cut out the labor pool entirely. Advance the labor pools standards faster than the local markets will bear? That's pretty much how the US chased its manufacturing jobs away.


It's a pity people cannot seem to wrap their heads around the fact that there are many places in this world where having a job, ANY job, is FAR more preferable to having none.
0 Votes
+ -
By the numbers
klumper Updated - 3rd Feb
@oncall
That's pretty much how the US chased its manufacturing jobs away.

That came from unilateral greed. The greed of 1) corporate brass to want an ever larger slice of the pie to pocket; the greed of 2) organized labor to want an ever larger slice of the pie to consume; and the greed of 3) our government lawmakers to want an ever larger slice of taxes to fund their perpetually expanding base.

Guess who eventually won? [Hint: Number 1 bought off Number 3, leaving Number 2 basically holding an empty bag, to the detriment of union and non-union workers everywhere. Number 1 was then free to go foreign to its heart's content].

It's a pity people cannot seem to wrap their heads around the fact that there are many places in this world where having a job, ANY job, is FAR more preferable to having none.

You mean like right here in the USA? Only how low should we go, and how much loot should corporate execs be allowed to rake off the top at the expense of everyone and everything else? Compared to the brass of the past, the top to bottom pay plus perk differentials that exist today makes our modern day penthouse executives basically bandits. Self serving bandits.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Peter Perry 3rd Feb
Why should people pay more? Seriously, it is Apple Exploiting everyone and not the other way around!

Crud, Apple charges the Carrier More and expects them to subsidize the phone! They pay the workers less so they are getting it on that end...

Sorry but Apple should give a little back without expecting to get more for their products...

Think about it, the 4s no longer has the best screen on the market, it is fragile, features a smaller screen, only comes in 3G, can't replace or upgrade the battery, Can't upgrade the storage... Do these things make it a bad device? No but many phones have similar specs and you get them for free... Some phones Leverage LTE and larger screens to demand a higher price (granted, they are usually 32Gig so they match the 4s pricing)...

What I am saying, is that the 16 Gig 4s certainly isn't under priced so delivering any less or even marginally more should not drive the price up!

As for Quality, Apple's quality is no higher than HTC and in some cases might not even be that high and even Motorola builds a very Solid phone so comparisons have to be made here for pricing purposes.

One more note, I feel bad for Tim Cook, because he has to deal with all these PR Nightmares that Jobs left behind.
0 Votes
+ -
Apparentely you walkup on the wrong side of the bed
wackoae 3rd Feb
@Peter Perry You have to be a complete fandroid to say what you say when the Foxconn employees working on Apple products have the best pay, the best benefits and the best working conditions when compared to any other company (even Foxconn itself) in China.

Sure, they are not the same standards based on the US, but for China, the conditions are the best .... and that is thanks to Apple. That is why they had 12000 applicants lining up in front of the gates this week alone (see any news site, not just gossip column).

Why don't you complain about the condition of Samsung employees (who get paid 40% less than what iPhone workers get paid)? Or how the makers of the XBox get paid less and have worst conditions even-though they are working for Foxconn too? And lets not forget Dell and HP, who's products are also made by Foxconn in factories with worst conditions than the XBox.

If you are going to b!t@h about one company, how about ALL THE OTHERS that use the same subcontractor and do absolutely nothing to ensure that they get better pay and better work conditions?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Peter Perry 3rd Feb
@wackoae

What the hell are you talking about? I thought this article was about paying more for an iPhone 5 if they took a more Ethical Stance? Why the heck would I talk about other companies when the question was, "How much extra would you pay for an ethical iPhone 5?"

I guess you're a little off in your comprehension today huh?

As for the others that have people working there, they're not in the same position that Apple is in... The Others cut costs to Compete, Apple cuts costs not to pass them on to the consumers, but to make sure their deep pockets get even deeper! Does it make the others right? Probably not, but I understand trying to keep your company a float vs trying to squeeze every last dime out everyone you deal with.

Now as for your claims that they're so good... I ask you the same question I asked Baggins_z... Would you want to work those hours under those conditions? Somehow I think you'll avoid answering the questions.
0 Votes
+ -
You should broaden your poll.
itpro_z 3rd Feb
While I have no interest in any iToys, I do give a preference to companies that manufacture here in my home country (USA). Yes, in many cases my choices are few, but there are some who still employ American workers to produce a quality product. In this election year when we are preoccupied with our coming choices for elected officials, we should all realize that we also cast a vote everytime we open our wallets. Like many, I have a list of companies that I choose not to do business with because of practices that I disagree with, but I also have a list of companies that are on my preferred list because of practices that I deem admirable. If I were in the market for an iPhone, I would have to seriously consider Apple's practices as a part of my purchasing decision.
0 Votes
+ -
Tried that .... all I got was bad products at a premium
wackoae 3rd Feb
@itpro_z I have tried doing the "buy American" thing ..... regretted every single purchase.

Got a Saturn (GM), worst car a I ever owned. Even worst than the Ford I owned before.
Purchased "American made" toys .... broke within weeks. No warranty.
Tried an "American brand" PC. Turned out to be made in China.
0 Votes
+ -
You'd never know we were once the envy of the world
klumper Updated - 3rd Feb
@wackoae

And not that long back, with our mass manufacturing, assembly line production, and heavy industries. Greed in too many quarters spoiled it. So what exactly went wrong?

Considering unions (a big part of the problem as they became increasingly unreasonable and militant, if not downright Marxist) are now largely broken, what's the excuse during the modern tech era? Other than a lack of priorities, cutting corners at every conceivable turn in the name of jacking up profits, and OH MY MY, insatiable greed.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
vbp1 6th Feb
@wackoae don't know what problems you had with your Saturn,
I own one L200 model for the last 10 years, not a problem at all
except the usual (change tires after 5 years, change battery after 5+ years) maybe if you take care your car better (I don't know changing oil regularly (I do it every 3.5-4K miles) and not abuse it much it would last)
in the last 20 years all of my cars (except the last 2 ) were US make.
I had 12 yo. ford(Thunderbird) had it for another 3 years, 2 Oldsmobile bought one 8 yo. drive it for 3 years, bought another at 6 yo. dove it for 8 years, and a Chevy Monte Carlo(bought it 5 yo) dove it for 6 years donated @ 216k miles in still working condition.

don't see major issues here...
0 Votes
+ -
Begging the question fallacy
baggins_z 3rd Feb
Since working conditions at Foxconn are not horrendous nor unethical, your entire point is moot. Other than to demonstrate that you have been successfully propagandized.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Peter Perry 3rd Feb
@baggins_z Really? Would you work under those conditions, for that pay?
0 Votes
+ -
No WE wouldn't
oncall 3rd Feb
@Peter Perry

But WE (citizens of advanced societies) have options like staying home and collecting welfare and/or unemployment, going to live with parents/relatives, or hitting the shelters. Poverty in China is defined as making less than $1.25 a day ($456/year) and over 10% of the population exists at that level (in 2005 anyway). You cannot compare it to what we consider poverty (making less than $22k a year).

You know I once visited this expo in Chicago where they actually took photographs of various families and what a typical family of 4 ate in one year for various populations around the world. Very eye opening, it is almost unfathomable the minimal existence people endure. So to say "I wouldn't work for that" when you probably spend more for a McDonalds meal than many families live off of for a month is telling.
0 Votes
+ -
Have you ever lived in China?
wackoae 3rd Feb
@Peter Perry I haven't but know enough people that have.

Ask them if the conditions are worst or better for them ....
0 Votes
+ -
Advocates of a redder world
klumper Updated - 4th Feb
@Peter Perry
baggins_z Really? Would you work under those conditions, for that pay?

baggins_z would make an effective red commissar upon eastern shores, and a fat but miserly plutocrat on western ones me thinks.

@oncall
No WE wouldn't

So what should WE do then? All go collect welfare or unemployment, live with parents and relatives, and hit local vagabond shelters while our corporate tech brats enrich Red China and Asia Major at our sold-out expense? Would the formation of a One World Government Council to dispense justice to peons big and small please you?

It's like you have some inborn contempt for the standard of living we have achieved over the course of many generations. I've never understood egalitarian crusaders who want to see what we have ripped from our hands and passed along to the betterment of foreign people and places (or aliens who invade our own lands).
0 Votes
+ -
I think Apple should double their prices
toddybottom_z 3rd Feb
I would pay double for an ethical iPhone. We keep hearing about how much better and kinder Apple is than everyone else. That is until the Apple fanbois are forced to admit that Apple, as a company, is no better than other companies like Dell.

Come on Apple, prove to us that you actually are better. Come out with an ethical iPhone 5 and charge double. I'll buy it and I know a lot of others would too. You have nothing to lose.
0 Votes
+ -
Yes.
WilErz 3rd Feb
I'd go further than that and support uniform EU tariffs on goods from countries that fail to meet EU labour and environmental protection levels. The tariffs should be high enough to compensate for weaker standards, but no higher (or lower).
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Peter Perry 3rd Feb
@WilErz The problem is that our elected leaders seem to be too afraid of China right now to force change!
0 Votes
+ -
Ha! Think again
klumper Updated - 4th Feb
If they're afraid of anyone, it's their corporate handlers and one world masters, not Red China. And to be precise, the word isn't fear. It's a matter of collusion, as in, "I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine, and we'll both make out just fine. Got it, Senator?"

Only it helps to dumb down and distract the populace when forging these kinds of reciprocity arrangements. Turning the peeps into paupers and puppets helps. That much they're doing rather splendidly.
0 Votes
+ -
Fair traded nonsense
Robert Hahn 4th Feb
Most of the people on here who claim that they would pay extra to foment social unrest in China are posturing for the cameras. I know that because this same idea exists in the cultivation of coffee. So-called "fair trade coffee" is sold for a higher price than other coffee, the proceeds to be spent on better working conditions in the third-world countries where the coffee is grown.

Most of you don't even know such a thing exists, and even fewer of you buy the fair trade coffee. This is all a big kabuki to make do-gooders feel morally superior to everyone else. It's the same thing with "American-made goods." In a poll, people will say they'd pay extra. But they don't. They buy the foreign-made product because it's cheaper. Then, to assuage their guilt, they blame "CEOs" and "rich corporations" for being greedy, when it was their own greed that made them buy the foreign-made product.
0 Votes
+ -
Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it before, like a skipping record now
klumper Updated - 4th Feb
@Robert Hahn

It's always the masses' fault. They're the driving force and problem behind everything. That's why they're becoming increasingly poorer and more impotent as time goes on. Yet some still conveniently lump all blame on their shriveling corpse. It's laughable when you consider who continues to profit, now more obscenely than ever, at the masses' and workers' withering expense.

Most of the people on here who claim that they would pay extra to foment social unrest in China are posturing for the cameras.

How about to foment social unrest right here in the USA? It's coming you know, if history is any predictive guide. Oh that's right, no one believes such a thing could happen when they have things so good themselves. It might take violence or a revolution, like the one that kick-started this nation to begin with, to get their attention -- or swollen heads. More and more this is looking like the only course left.
0 Votes
+ -
Loud
Robert Hahn 4th Feb
I bet you wear a Seiko watch made in Thailand, drive a car made in Korea, wear clothes made in China, and shout your BS through a bullhorn made in Japan. And you believe that a class of hereditary CEOs cause jobs to move overseas.

Either way, if you're into advocating violence, I'll get off here. I think that's nuts.
0 Votes
+ -
Paul Revere was kinda loud too, with the enemy at the gates
klumper Updated - 5th Feb
Ha! Like we have a choice where anything gets manufactured any longer. If our farmers weren't tied to the land, the multinationals would ship that industry overseas too, just as quick as you could blink. Tell me it ain't so.

As for "advocating" violence, our republic is broken. Once you destroy the middle and working class and create a 20/80 society, you lose your safety buffer and all bets are off. That's what we're doing and precisely where we're headed as a nation - in overdrive. I'm surprised the extent of your historical knowledge doesn't exceed a 40 span, and this actually shocks you.

Litmus test time. If you were to take a comprehensive (let's say 50 state) poll asking if it is correct or in our collective and long term interest to methodically ship both tech and non-tech jobs overseas, I bet 90% of Americans would say NO! Then ask the same of the corporate multinationals - top rank brass + boardrooms - and the answer would be 100% YES, YES, YES! What a surprise.

Shades btw of poll after poll taken over the last 40 years re securing our southern border, basically all for naught as nothing ever gets done, short of show - and amnesties by the millions. That's because these same groups, the self serving 10% with the power, don't want it to happen as it serves their agendas well. Want to take a shot at that one too, Mr. All Is Well?
0 Votes
+ -
Hurtful truth
Robert Hahn 5th Feb
@klumper
The polls are bunk. Unlike you, I actually tried to save a household-name American manufacturer that was sinking straight into bankruptcy. That was happening because a Japanese company, manufacturing in Thailand, had entered its market and was basically blowing the American company off the shelves by the simple method of selling a comparable product for about 20% less.

We put American flags on the box, we put "Proudly Made in the USA!" on it... nobody gave a rat's patootie. All the people who took your poll bought the foreign-made product to save themselves twenty bucks. Virtually every company that has tried to keep manufacturing in the U.S. has discovered The Hard Way that Americans will not pay one dime more for an American-made product. Those CEOs aren't moving manufacturing overseas because it's fun or exciting. They do it because it's the only way to save the rest of the jobs -- in sales, accounting, marketing, and engineering -- all of which will be gone if the whole company goes down the tube.

Stop blaming "the rich," or "the corporations" or anybody but American consumers for the fact that nobody can manufacture mass-market products here without winding up in a bankruptcy court. For all the bile, rhetoric, and poll numbers, NOBODY CARES whether the guy across the street loses his job if it will save them five bucks.

And you're right: in the end those will be the same people marching down the street with torches and pitchforks, blaming The Other Guy for what happened.
0 Votes
+ -
How honest do you dare go?
klumper Updated - 5th Feb
@Robert Hahn
Stop blaming "the rich," or "the corporations" or anybody but American consumers for the fact that nobody can manufacture mass-market products here without winding up in a bankruptcy court.

So tell me, how we were able to do it for our entire history, until the modern era? *doink* Even built an empire the envy of the world in doing so, with our mass manufacturing, assembly line production, and heavy industry prowess. Now we have neither the brains or work ethic, right? Greed kills everything, and that always starts at the top.

Greed now to the tune of billions in profits per quarter for many, very little of which "trickles down." These same good corporate denizens are working overtime just to keep from coughing up their fair share of corporate taxes by playing shell games and cooking their books offshore. Don't tell me you're not aware of this. Or is this just one more thing you condone as "smart thinking"?

I couldn't help but notice how you also sidestepped the questions I put before you, falling back but again on your dopey and all-inclusive mantra that it's the spoiled masses, the consumers, the people, ad nauseum, who are to blame. If people are buying cheaper, it's because they have nothing extra to spend since more and more are unemployed, or underemployed, with each passing year.

A self fulfilling realization and rather predictable outcome, thanks in large part to our corporate traitors and one-world government, wouldn't you say? Basic math dictates 1 + 1 = 2, except in those circles, where there are more enticing and profitable numbers to be concerned with -- and bagged.
0 Votes
+ -
Bliss at work
Robert Hahn 6th Feb
You appear to believe that people who run corporations get to keep the money. It is not worth spending time on you. You're angry and you should be angry, because the way you understand the worlds to work, it is angry-making. The reason you don't see hardly anyone falling you off the cliff is that most people understand things better than you seem to.

Hint: it is not possible for a handful of people to consume "billions" of dollars. It's simply not possible.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
landran Updated - 6th Feb
I might come off sounding a little bit like a prick but:
I don't personally care if they're made more "ethically" and wouldn't pay one cent more if they were. I WOULD pay substantially more if it was made entirely in the US though. I'm not talking about the capacitors and microchips that are made in china. I'm talking about paying working Americans to assemble all the parts and ship it elsewhere.
0 Votes
+ -
It is not the manufacturing process, it is mining
rhon@... 6th Feb
This is a complete nonsense discussion. Everybody who ever visited one of those huge factories in China will know that it takes probably less than a dollar per phone to improve the salaries and work conditions of the employees significantly. Apple and all others should simply do so and pass the few bucks on.

There is a completely different problem though that nobody wants to look into. It is about the rare earth mining that comes with smartphones and computers and is mainly done in Africa (and a bit in China). Those boys and girls are true slaves. Apple could do only something about it when they send a army into the territories, there is no way to improve the working conditions for those children at all. These circumstances equal that of blood diamonds.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
jrd417 6th Feb
I'll tell you what I'd pay more money for, ANY product made entirely by US workers from materials produced in the US.
0 Votes
+ -
paying more is not the only factor in 'ethical'
Jim Johnson 6th Feb
I'm willing to pay more - IF my employer is willing to pay ME fairly. I've been watching a steady move back toward 'sweatshop' work policies and shareholder/executive compensation advancing much faster than rank & file compensation. The 'robber barons' are trying to make a comeback.

I am all for everyone building wealth and working toward that goal. But there is a difference between wealth and greed - and a big reason nearly every religion warns against greed.
0 Votes
+ -
Don't expect miracles
Jow_Blow 6th Feb
These industries are run by cartels.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
Scarface Claw Updated - 6th Feb
Consumer electronics are already so cheap that they are deemed "disposable" or "throw away" items. So I dont think the economics of the devices has anything to do with it. People shouldn't be given a choice at all, in a humane and advanced society ethically produced commodities would be mandatory.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Would you pay more for ethical consumer electronics?
jshoolman@... 6th Feb
Not to hijack the question - but let's put an additional qualifier on "paying more for ethically manufactured consumer electronics" and add "MADE IN AMERICA." Consider this. If ethical labor practices were imposed on FOXCONN and other contract manufacturers outside of the USA, their cost would certainly rise and their factory output would deminish. It has to if workers are not allowed to work 12 hour days, 6 or 7 days a week and if workers cannot be called to start a shift at anytime of the day or night regardless of when their last shift ended. Eventually China will experience the kind of Industrial Revolution that America and Western Europe experienced decades ago. With it will come increased labor costs. How much more would US citizens pay for "ethical consumer electronics" MANUFACTURED IN THE USA versus "ethical consumer electronics" MANUFACTURED OFFSHORE? How many AMERICAN JOBS could be brought back to the USA companies produced at least the products destined for sale in the USA in the USA? It would require an investment in training. It would require flexible labor enabling workers to perform multiple jobs depending upon production needs. Recent estimates suggest that products produced in AMERICAN FACTORIES would likely cost 20% - 100% more than the current cost of the same product manufactured in an OFFSHORE FACTORY that DOES NOT CONFORM TO ETHICAL LABOR PRACTICES. If ETHICAL LABOR PRACTICES were imposed on offshore factories, there would likely still be a higher "manufactured cost" attributed to the product manufactured in America. But how much of a premium would it be? And how much stronger would the US economy be if hundreds of thousands of jobs in factories like FOXCONN (estimated 240,000 factory employees in China producing Apple and other electronic products) were brought to the USA? Not only does bringing manufacturing jobs to the USA (at least for the products intended for US sale) create jobs. It creates consumers who no longer need to collect unemployment benefits. And it creates tax revenue to pay down the deficit the US government has accrued while spending more than the tax revenue our economy generates. I'm not suggesting that all of Apple's products have to be produced in the USA. Perhaps there are supply chain economies that woud still justify producing products for parts of the world in other parts of the world. But there are many merits in bringing production of products for consumption in North America back to the USA. Whether production for other parts of the world should remain offshore depends upon transportation costs and other supply chain considerations.
0 Votes
+ -
Unfortunately, it's not about money
rjplummer 6th Feb
Steve Jobs & Apple have made it clear it's not about the money. In fact, the cost of an iPhone would not be significantly higher if it were made in America.

Apple wants the ability to improve their design at the last minute and have tens of thousands of workers ready to get up in the middle of the night and work 12+ hour shifts day after day to meet the original schedule. Even if you're paying them American wages, Apple still wants indentured servants. Apple isn't choosing Foxconn because they're low cost -- they're choosing them specifically for their inhuman labor practices.

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix
Click Here
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

Blog Roll

Blog Archive

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix
ie8 fix