Nationwide broadband 'not a priority'? Just ask the kids

By | August 12, 2010, 5:26am PDT

Summary: 52% of American’s do not see nationwide, high-speed broadband as a priority according to a survey. Had they asked the younger demographics, perhaps the results would have been different.

As colleague Sam Diaz reports this morning, a survey by the Pew Internet and American Life Project finds that over half of US citizens believe that nationwide high-speed broadband is not a priority, and in some cases “efforts to expand broadband should be abandoned”. Only 40% said the issue was a top priority.

The thing that grabbed my attention was the demographic details. Different generations will believe different things - and had more focus been divided between older and younger generations, I strongly suspect the figures would be different.

The problem with survey research like this is the sampling data that is used. Respondents were over the age of 18 which makes survey permissions far easier to deal with, yet had they branched out to an even younger demographic by seeking parental permission, the results would have been totally different.

But flip this round again to a different way of thinking. This survey wasn’t an election, nor was it a battle for a winning argument. Just because ‘only’ 40% say that broadband should be rolled out nationwide and at high-speeds to compete with other countries, along with to boost industry and development - it doesn’t mean that the 52% against necessarily win. 40% may not be the majority, but it’s certainly a significant minority, and I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of this 40% will be in urban environments.

The US is lagging behind in broadband speeds. I know - I’ve been there. And the United Kingdom isn’t that much better, even though at home as I write this I enjoy the delights of 17mbps broadband. But I live in a city and about 200m away from the telephone exchange, while the rest of my family cope with 1.5mbps speeds where they live in north Nottinghamshire in a village in the middle of Sherwood Forest. Literally.

The US government says 100 million Americans do not have broadband. The report author argued that non-users may be reluctant about “a government promoting a technology that they don’t use” nor “see the clear benefit to them”.

As broadband becomes a ‘legal right’ in some countries, along with electricity, water and gas supplies, one wouldn’t dream of having a limited water supply which only kicks out a pint of water a day. Why should it be the same for broadband?

Just as gas heats our homes in the dead of winter, electricity powers our devices for entertainment, water is our physical human lifeblood; broadband is the lifeblood of industry, communication and business.

Broadband will be a massive investment for the future. To put it crudely, if the older generations who said no to the broadband plans now are listened to, by the time they’re dead and the younger generations take the places in industry, they will have to survive on the poor decisions that the older generation made.

While I’m all for democracy, I sincerely hope that the US government acknowledges, but ignores this survey. A nationwide high-speed roll-out of broadband will be nothing but a good thing and will pay for itself in a few years.

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Zack Whittaker, a criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, Canterbury, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

Disclosure

Zack Whittaker

I worked briefly with Microsoft UK in 2006 but no longer have any connection with the company. Regardless, I remain impartial and unbiased in my views.

I don't hold any stock or shares, investments or industrial secrets in any company, but have signed confidentiality agreements with a number of UK and U.S. organisations, whose names I am not at liberty to disclose.

I was involved with Kent Union, the University of Kent's student union, undertaking voluntary, non-salaried, elected positions between early 2009 and mid-2010.

No other company, body, government department, non-governmental organisation or third sector organisation employs me or pays me a salary in any capacity whatsoever.

As a freelance journalist, whenever expenses are given and taken by a company that is not CBS Interactive, these will be disclosed in each relevant post to ensure transparency.

I currently work with a UK law enforcement unit, but this is an entirely separate position which bears no connection to other work.

(Updated: 23rd October 2011)

Biography

Zack Whittaker

Zack Whittaker, criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, UK, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

After studying criminology at university, though still in his early-20's, he has already had a series unconventional work and voluntary positions. He has worked with researchers studying neurological illnesses like Tourette's syndrome (which he suffers from), has given lectures on the nature of disabilities in the public community, and occasionally ends up speaking on television and radio discussing the events of the day.

He first had academic work published at the age of 22, then still an undergraduate, and has been cited by a wide range of publications: from the Huffington Post, Business Insider, AllThingsDigital, The Atlantic Wire and CBS News.

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RE: Nationwide broadband 'not a priority'? Just ask the kids
JACOBSONR 14th Oct
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When you look at where the US is on the chart it does look bad. Until, you look at where the US is compared to all the other major landmass countries like Canada, Russia, China, India, and so on. Then our coverage looks a little better.

I would say the big problem with US broadband is the price not the coverage.
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Contributr
@Shmythey Price wise, yes I see your point. But with the US gov. saying that 100 million American's (so just under a third of all US citizens) don't have access to broadband at all, this shows a huge gap to be filled in the economy by allowing those without the ability and opportunity to use the Web as a means to trade, learn and contribute to wider society.
@zwhittaker If people want broadband access, and opportunity to contribute, it is up to them to work for it. Conscripting the rest of society, forcibly extorting their own hard work is fraught with many other perils in the long run.
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Contributr
@JeffLS Understandable, and it does mean families who want broadband access have to be able to pay each month for it. However - millions of families are simply unable to get broadband because the infrastructure is NOT there to begin with. Many families can no doubt pay for it, but if the infrastructure isn't there to begin with, then they're stuck.
@zwhittaker In a competitive system, if a business will make money by expanding into an area to gain more customers, then the business will invest in that expansion. There is a symbiotic relationship between the supplier of service and the consumer.

This will not always be a profitable enterprise, and so, yes, there will be some for whom expansion will not be a viable investment for the service suppliers; at least not until some other advancement comes along to change that balance.

Alternatively, cooperatives may be formed by those willing to invest, pooling their resources to somehow effect an expansion of service. These may be charity organizations, or possibly CO-OP organizations formed by those most affected.

We need something that motivates us as people to work to improve our own situations... possibly even to the point of inventing some new advancement which then benefits ourselves, and which can be "sold" to others.

Governments tend to stifle this sort of advancement in the long run. They tend to concentrate investment into things which are politically expedient for the bureaucrats, but not necessarily those things which are the most beneficial for all.

It's unproven that we even *can* adequately expand broadband to 100% of the people, and there is definitely no way to measure what the *right* amount of investment is before the cost outweighs the returns. And of course, there will always be those who have a lower bandwidth than others, so it becomes a continual spiral of government extortion to bring the lower ends up even more.

The idea that we can attain complete equality is a myth. What we should be striving for is removing the government roadblocks that prevent anyone who is motivated enough from working to achieve their potential. And without inequalities there would never be that motivation.
@zwhittaker

It's such kinda thinking that keeps asking for the spending that cannot be funded that bankrupts the entire western civilization.

You want broadband? How about paying it off from your own wallet.
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Ugh! Another so-called "right". What hogwash.
Look, true liberty means that we don't support any kind of slavery, including the kind where I am forced to work to pay for someone else's broadband access.

Just because one of the ends may be deemed "good" does not justify the means of using government power to force others to work for it.

It shouldn't be a surprise that those who don't have to pay taxes (i.e., those under 18) would be more willing to make others pay for expanded broadband access. Wait until they've worked for a decade, and have had to deal with having 40%+ of their hard work embezzled by the governement for "helping" others.
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Contributr
@JeffLS Hmm... you see the problem here is that helping others also means helping yourself. It's just about being on the other end of it.

I pay my taxes, around 19-23% of my total income per year which goes towards all kinds of things for society. Healthcare (NHS), defence, the welfare state and education etc. But in return, if I end up seriously ill, unemployed and in need of benefits, my fellow citizens will assist me in helping me recover. Taxation like this works both ways .

In the UK we had the 50p broadband tax, where every month we'd have an automatic 50p added to our phone bill to pay for nationwide 2mbps broadband for everyone. That's 50p x 12 months = ?6 a year, around $10. To me that's a bargain to help others, and indeed myself if I choose to move to a rural location to get them broadband access.

To say that we as citizens pay just over 65p a YEAR to support the Royal family, for example (to add dimension to my argument), and in return we get tourists and thus the wider boom to the economy, diplomatic relations, sovereign morale and trade agreements - it's a very little price to pay for the great deal of good we get from it.

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@zwhittaker I have no problem with willingly helping others, and yes, that in the long run can also help yourself. I have a problem with concentrating all that power in a bureaucratic process, to be spent on things I do not believe in, and forcing me to work for those ills.

People are free to invest or contribute to whatever charity they feel is worthwhile. However, the more you forcibly take from them "for the general good", the less they have to contribute personally. This is a diabolical evil. There's no human being in this world who really knows all that much more, or knows "what's best" for the rest. That is a trap for the lazy and complacent. And by taking from people against their will, you absolve them of being more responsible, and you disconnect them from being involved in the issues on a personal level.

I believe that the value of liberty and free will is being marginalized far too much "for the general good" which, in the long run, will hurt us much more than the value gained from some "perceived good".

Now, of course, I'm speaking from the perspective of a U.S. citizen, and I recognize that people elsewhere have different systems of society. However, here our society was formed under the recognition that the *people* derive liberty from a power outside of government grant; and I loathe all of the ways that we have been complacent in allowing our government to subjugate us "for the general good."
@zwhittaker

I think the biggest problem with the government paying to expand broadband is that they do not monitor the funds that they already pay out. They pay Verizon and Comcast millions of dollars to expand, so what do those companies do? They expand a little then use the rest of the money to put little ISPs out of business, and it is usually the the little ISPs that reach the rural areas in the first place.

We pay tons of taxes so Comcast and Verizon and a couple others have an easy bottom line, squashing any competition, and I should know I help my brother with his small ISP which offers wireless broadband, and anywhere they can get a foot hold Comcast runs in and offers free internet for 6 mounths to get people switch (of course they will jack the rates later), and this all funded by the government "helping rural people get broadband"

Rural areas are the only places small ISPs have left, and the Government is paying to kill us.
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Bad comparison
Michael Alan Goff 12th Aug 2010
@zwhittaker

The UK is tiny.

America is magnitudes larger.
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@JeffLS

I believe that the value of liberty and free will is being marginalized far too much "for the general good" which, in the long run, will hurt us much more than the value gained from some "perceived good".

What we are talking about when we talk about broadband is infrastructure. Our country has a long history of government-sponsored infrastructure project that have created "good" that by no stretch can be characterized as "perceived."

How was liberty and free will marginalized by the construction of the federal dam system? Or the national highway system? How will liberty and free will be marginalized by a federal broadband system? You need to support your assertions.

Sure, government makes bad laws, but it makes good things, like the Apollo rocket, the Hoover Dam and I-95. A broadband infrastructure would be one of those things.

BTW, Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution empowers Congress to build post offices and post roads, the state of the art in communications at the time. From what I know, the intent was to facilitate the delivery of news and information, not personal mail. Trust the Framers on this: government has a role in ensuring that people have access to news and information.

If the Framers thought so highly of the delivery of news and information to include it in the enumerated powers, I don't see how we could go wrong using the government to build a modern "post road." It was the original intent.



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@none none

You're talking about a time when there was essentially no business model which would allow delivery of news and information to post offices in an affordable way.

And mail delivery did not, at that time, include home delivery, but only to the post offices. Also note that the government had to enforce a strict monopoly on "first class" mail in order to maintain it's position - an artificial position that prevented us from moving forward in postal communications. FedEX and UPS have done much better than the USPS in delivery service in many ways, though somehow the USPS still maintains a monopoly on first class mail. Imho, this actually stagnated our advancement in service delivery - though today, with electronic communications, that is largely a moot point.

Fortunately for us, business models have already allowed for electronic communications "post offices" and "post roads" to be built efficiently, and thus the government has no need to step in. They've already built the infrastructure, and there are many free hot spots (post offices) that people can go to for service.

Government intervention slows innovation much more often than it helps. Government-run services may at times be on the forefront of innovation, but over time they tend to stagnate and resist improvement. And in the end, I sincerely doubt that the cost of the government intervention is worth the value in the long run; this is especially true when considering that they nearly always include some intrusion on our personal liberties in order to provide their services.
@JeffLS

You're talking about a time when there was essentially no business model which would allow delivery of news and information to post offices in an affordable way.

What you're saying is, now that times have changed we don't need the Framers' wisdom. We can say, well that may have made sense at the founding but it doesn't make sense now. How far down that road are you prepared to go? I can think of lots of liberals who would love to make that same argument.


Fortunately for us, business models have already allowed for electronic communications "post offices" and "post roads" to be built efficiently, and thus the government has no need to step in.


The Constitution also empowers Congress to raise armies. It could be argued that at the time there was no business model to provide military services but certainly they exits today. See Blackwater. By your logic the government no longer has a need to step into the military business if armies can be provided commercially.

In my opinion the Framers didn't include those things in the enumerated powers for lack of a business model to provide them. The Framers empowered the Congress to do the things they thought were necessary to form and preserve a free civil society. I'm sticking with them.



happy
@none none
Actually, it is my argument that is relying on the wisdom of the framers, and it is your side of the argument which is attempting to misconstrue their words to achieve your ends.

First of all, the framers insisted that any power granted to the government, *by the people*, must be written into the constitution. If it's not written there, then they do not have that power. My argument is that the constitution says nothing about any other infrastructure, and it is unconstitutional for the government to assume that power without a constitutional amendment. If it is something that cannot be provided any other way than granting the power to government, then it warrants a constitutional amendment. Lacking this amendment, it is unconstitutional (by definition). Any argument which tries to circumvent that approach is the argument which is ignoring "the Framer's wisdom."

Now, of course, we're talking about the federal government, and individual states were given much more freedom with which to experiment with different methods. However, even there, states are supposed to be controlled by their own constitutions.

But in any case, the point of my statement to which you responded was that they had a need *at that time* to provide a communication infrastructure because it didn't exist at that time, and there was not enough critical mass of business investment to provide for it. But please note how they implemented it - it was definitely not done in a way that would support your position with respect to extending broadband access through government power.

And the framers only gave the congress the power to do that which is constitutionally supported. The mere fact that some congresses (and presidents) since then have abused their powers does not prove your opinion that they actually do have that power constitutionally.

Your knowledge of the constitution is severely lacking in both the meaning of the content, as well as the historical significance; which unfortunately skews how you think it applies to more recent issues.
IMO if poll respondents had a clear understanding of the benefits of universal broadband, the response would have been different. People just think of more government spending, higher taxes, higher deficit, and they say no. But if you consider it as a productivity tool, and look at the benefits and savings in other areas, they'd think differently. For example, think about pushing a button on your remote control to watch a streaming movie from Netflix. Compare that to the cost in fuel and time for going to the video store, then back again to return the movie. There are all kinds of more significant benefits too - education, enabling rural residents to work from home, better access to health information and medical care, and all the smaller ones people take for granted, such as online banking. And once that broadband is rolled out, consumers will be paying a monthly fee for it. It's not like taxpayers are being asked to provide broadband as an entitlement.
@DaveN_MVP I beg to differ. I have a very good understanding of those ideas, and much more in fact.

First of all, it is a euphemism to think of it as "government spending." The government has no good or service for sale, but instead siphons off of the hard work of the people.

Secondly, if it is more productive for these people to have broadband access, then let those who benefit the most invest in their own future. And there are time-honored organizations which exist to fill the gaps; things like charities and cooperatives.

Then there's the understanding that in order to support the "government spending," one would have to believe that the "government" is some altruistic, all-knowing power which has our best interests at heart.... something which history has proven is horribly misguided. Concentrating too much power encourages corruption and abuse.

And finally, if someone believes in the inherent benefits of natural selection, they should be less likely to advocate for government intervention; because such intervention tends to stifle advancement in the long run.
@JeffLS

I agree that the government has done a less than exemplary job in many areas in which they've tried to manage this type of thing. However, the communications carriers have proven themselves to be little more than crooks. They'd like nothing better than to take money directly from your pockets to theirs, and skip all this foolishness about providing communications. They're a caricature of the free enterprise system.

We have a longstanding tradition of charging telephone customers in high density areas to subsidize rural communications. You probably see that on your monthly bill, as I do. IMO what needs to happen is a better allocation of those funds toward making broadband more universally available - we don't really have the Mayberry phone co any more where the operator puts you through to Aunt Bea, so let's rethink that program into a way to make broadband available to everyone - if we have to subsidize cable instead of telcos, that's fine, but let's stop wasting that money on get rich quick schemes for monopoly carriers, and use it to benefit consumers instead of robber barrons.
@DaveN_MVP

As I've written elsewhere, I have no problem with a business charging whatever price their market will bear, including whatever they can get to help them invest more in the business - which in the long run will include expansion into other areas.

That is what businesses do: they invest their profits into more business which improves services expansion and/or quality, maintains employees to perform the work, hires more as they expand, etc.

Businesses don't stick their profits in a mattress (i.e., take them out of the financial system). Instead, they invest in one of many different ways that in the long run provides benefit to us lowly workers.
This ultimately comes down to an argument about government and taxes, and then usually becomes completely irrational.

But if you think it's a strange debate in the US - try the current Australian election debate over national broadband!!!

As much as I dislike the idea of the government owning internet access I like the scheme currently being rolled out - offering fiber to the home with 25mbps to 100Mbps plans, and just announced 1Gbps top speed.

Meanwhile the opposition is now offering a cheaper broadband rollout with every existing technology offering a minimum peak speed of 12Mbps. This is when most Australians are covered by ADSL2 already.

They are hoping that wireless technology will form part of this,as although fiber is better, wireless is cheaper and is getting better. The rest is made up of the existing technologies in place including HFC.

So we have the choice of being improved by a major spend on a network offering to guarantee that it can peak at a slower speed than we already have.

So basically a $AU6 billion spend to take us back to half way between ADSL and ADSL2.

This is because they believe that by using existing systems the private providers can still make money out of the existing infrastructure. So they are hedging their bets and trying to keep both sides of the above debate happy.

The government system already being rolled out is a joint venture with private companies retailing the connections and private enterprise can still make money, but the opposition does not like the existing monopoly provider being threatened.
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OMG, this is silly
Speednet 12th Aug 2010
Ask the kids? I'm sure if you polled them of the importance of candy in your diet "the kids" would give a much higher priority too. Give me a break!

If the parents of "the kids" don't think broadband is a priority, then it isn't. That's the way we do things in America. The parents get to decide what's a priority for "the kids", not the government.

I'm sure you'll also figure out that the countries where broadband is considered a "right" (which is ludicrous) have much greater socialist tendencies. If you weren't aware, the majority in America is right now trying to keep socialism at bay, hence the "broadband is not the biggest priority" thing.
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What a lot of selfish louts!!
semi-adult 12th Aug 2010
Sooo... the 'right' answer is "I'll take it if I don't have to pay for it... and I'll be DAMNED if I'll participate in anything for anyone else's benefit"...

Yeah, that's real good.

At least they've read (or had read to them) the bullet points of Ayn Rand, and know how to cut and paste rhetoric.

Having a functioning society is not the same as socialism.
@semi-adult It might help if we tried not mis-characterizing the arguments presented, and instead focused on debating the specific argument points on which we disagree.

Speaking for myself, I have been through some very difficult times in my life, and while I probably wouldn't have turned down someone willingly offering assistance, I would NEVER have wanted someone to be forced to provide that assistance.

Using the force of government to conscript others to provide assistance is a horrible corruption of society. It essentially makes the notion of private ownership a sham since the government could take whatever it wants, and thus effectively renders a socialist system.

And, in the U.S. anyway, it is completely unconstitutional... if we had a judicial system which wouldn't abdicate it's responsibilities "for the greater good".

It would be interesting to read the definition of a "functioning society" being proposed, and how it differs from socialism.
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@JeffLS
Are we supposed to really care about the "tough times in your life" or any of your personal crap?

Or how stupid and idiotic you are/were to get yourself taxed at 40% ?

Or maybe we should all cry crocodile tears in case the government decides to cut any of the entitlements you think the world owes you. Right?

Nobody's saying everybody's entitled to free broadband. What they're advocating is the right to access and if you can't figure out the difference between the two, then you have no business voting, let alone paying taxes. Because you sound like you just don't have the brains for it.

Besides, if we listened to selfish teabaggers like you, the rural poor wouldn't have electricity, indoor plumbing or even access to a telephone because it wouldn't be "profitable enough".

There are many things out there I don't like paying for either. Like you sitting on your fat butt collecting Social Security someday, if you aren't already.

The world doesn't revolve around you, kemosabe.
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The problem with your comparison,
Michael Alan Goff 12th Aug 2010
@LTV

Broadband is a luxury.
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@LTV10

Fascinating to watch the vitriol coming from someone who thinks they're so smart. If you know so much, then you should be able to discuss the points and not use personal attacks in your responses.

It's small-minded people like you who continually drag the debate into the gutter than have a real exchange of ideas. The irony is that you resort to such complete lack of tolerance in the views of others in order to battle some imagined intolerance you supposedly see. You sorta remind me of Don Quixote.

Considering that you know nothing about me personally, perhaps you should avoid personal attacks so that you don't look too much like a complete idiot.

You also don't know much about taxes either, I can see. Maybe you should read a book or two. Your true taxation doesn't stop at payroll taxes. There are many other ways you are taxed that you may not notice unless you truly look. Some very bright economists have written about these.

On the other hand, you probably wouldn't understand real books anyway, judging by your reading comprehension of my note. Or you're just too dense. But since you missed what I said: I do not harbor any desire for entitlements for myself of any kind. I'd have thought that was evident in my second paragraph.

If you could give it some thought, I'd love to see some basis for this notion you call "right of access". I hope you are capable of showing how it exists, otherwise I have to assume that you just made it up.

You also seem completely incapable of understanding that I have been forced to pay into the government lie of "Social Security", so anything I collect will be owed to me because of my own hard work over decades (though, sadly, the payback will be much less than if I'd been able to invest it myself).

Frankly, I doubt you even understand how the "Social Security" system is setup. It is very similar to the ponzi schemes which has gotten some major play in the crime news lately with high-roller investors. At the risk of wasting the bits, let me give you a small hint: The money you pay into SS is NOT directly helping any current SS recipient today (and note that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can actually hold a real job where you pay into SS). All SS money collected today is absconded for other purposes by our esteemed government representatives.

Instead of resorting to personal attacks and name calling, you might do your "cause" some good by trying to be a little more thoughtful in future debates. Start by trying not to assume anything about your opponent - which all have proven to be erroneous assumptions - and just address specific points with which you disagree.

Failing that, you may find that I no longer have the energy to address such meaningless drivel in the future.
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Fascinating to watch the vitriol coming from someone who thinks they're so smart. If you know so much, then you should be able to discuss the points and not use personal attacks in your responses.

Well maybe you shouldn't bring up your personal life here. Are we really supposed to give a damm? Why inject it here other than for your own prurient interests.

It's small-minded people like you who continually drag the debate into the gutter than have a real exchange of ideas. The irony is that you resort to such complete lack of tolerance in the views of others in order to battle some imagined intolerance you supposedly see. You sorta remind me of Don Quixote.

Well as absolutist as you sound, you pretty much should look in your own mirror before you start pointing fingers. I'm not here to kiss your_ass. You'll have to go somewhere else for that.

Considering that you know nothing about me personally, perhaps you should avoid personal attacks so that you don't look too much like a complete idiot.

Oh you've revealed enough about yourself here that I can make a judgment. I've dealt with selfish, self-centered blabbermouths like you before.

You also don't know much about taxes either, I can see. Maybe you should read a book or two. Your true taxation doesn't stop at payroll taxes. There are many other ways you are taxed that you may not notice unless you truly look. Some very bright economists have written about these.

Yeah well if you were so smart as you claim, you would've hired a good tax accountant to find ways of lowering that percentage. But that's really besides the point here, now isn't it.

On the other hand, you probably wouldn't understand real books anyway, judging by your reading comprehension of my note. Or you're just too dense. But since you missed what I said: I do not harbor any desire for entitlements for myself of any kind. I'd have thought that was evident in my second paragraph.

Gee, talk about not using "personal attacks". But then I expect as much from hypocrites like you who preach taking the moral high ground in one sentence, but fail to do so in the next one. ADD, perhaps?

If you could give it some thought, I'd love to see some basis for this notion you call "right of access". I hope you are capable of showing how it exists, otherwise I have to assume that you just made it up.

It doesn't exist right now. That was the whole point of the article, cluebat.

You also seem completely incapable of understanding that I have been forced to pay into the government lie of "Social Security", so anything I collect will be owed to me because of my own hard work over decades (though, sadly, the payback will be much less than if I'd been able to invest it myself).

There you go. Injecting your personal BS again.

Well cry me a river. The tears are just flowing down my cheeks. LOL...

Frankly, I doubt you even understand how the "Social Security" system is setup. It is very similar to the ponzi schemes which has gotten some major play in the crime news lately with high-roller investors.

Sounds like more right-wing crackpot thinking. And I'll bet your scared all the time that black helicopters are ready to land in your back yard.

At the risk of wasting the bits, let me give you a small hint: The money you pay into SS is NOT directly helping any current SS recipient today (and note that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can actually hold a real job where you pay into SS). All SS money collected today is absconded for other purposes by our esteemed government representatives.

The Social Security System is broke, no doubt about it. But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because it doesn't run like the private enterprise Darwinian system that you seem to advocate. You reform it the best way that it can be.

Failing that, you may find that I no longer have the energy to address such meaningless drivel in the future.

All tuckered out? Or does that mean your nursing home caretaker has cut back on your internet privileges?

lol... grin
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Broadband is a luxury.

Yeah and so were telephones, indoor toilets and electricity at one time. Had it not been for government providing access to those kinds of things, those living outside of the cities would still be living in caves and shitting on the sidewalks.

And thanks to jerks like JeffLS injecting every blabbering philosophical and political notion he has here, this has gone beyond the topic at hand considering teabaggers like him wouldn't be willing to pay for anything, let alone broadband access.

Except for their own personal entitlements, of course. Can't forget those. We'd still have to pay for that.

Nope, teabaggers like JeffLS believe that the poor should subsist on charity and if the charity-givers happen to be in a bad mood one day, then that's just tough luck for those who can't help themselves.

Isn't that right, JeffLS?

Just so long as your own personal aggrandizement is taken care of...

Just so long as your own fat face is filled...

Just so long as you can hoard whatever you can take...

The 'fittest' survive...

Isn't that right JeffLS? Isn't that right, teabagger?
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Let's look at this
Michael Alan Goff 13th Aug 2010
"Yeah and so were telephones, indoor toilets and electricity at one time. Had it not been for government providing access to those kinds of things, those living outside of the cities would still be living in caves and shitting on the sidewalks."

Actually, telephones and indoor toilets were pushed to the majority of America because.... wait for it.... private business and the type of prosperity that it brought. The same could be said about electricity, since without the money it wouldn't matter.

"And thanks to jerks like JeffLS injecting every blabbering philosophical and political notion he has here, this has gone beyond the topic at hand considering teabaggers like him wouldn't be willing to pay for anything, let alone broadband access.

Except for their own personal entitlements, of course. Can't forget those. We'd still have to pay for that."

No. I don't think you even understand the TEA Party Movement.

"Nope, teabaggers like JeffLS believe that the poor should subsist on charity and if the charity-givers happen to be in a bad mood one day, then that's just tough luck for those who can't help themselves.

Isn't that right, JeffLS?"

They can't subsist on Government either.

You're one of those pathetic people who refuse to let anyone take any personal responsibility. When is it my time to do things for myself and not for the Government to pay for it? Should the taxpayers buy my house, my phone, and so forth? If they're only funding the wires (which I doubt), then they would have to force people to buy it if they want to make their money back. Well... our money back. Should I be forced to buy something I don't want?

Many people don't want broadband. People can live, rather well, without broadband. There are ways to use the internet that aren't broadband. DSL works pretty good for most. Wireless works good for others. 3G has a chance, a good chance. Satellite works for some. Get it? There are ways that you can get online without Broadband access.
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And you're still dense, pt.1
LTV10 16th Aug 2010
Like I said Rural Electrification hasn't been a success. It's been a money pit.

It's brought electricity to places that wouldn't have it, otherwise. In that respect, it's been a crowing success.

Don't you just love farm subsudies?

Not really. Family and small farms are dwindling. To subsidize Corporate farms is as bad as subsidizing your friends on Wall Street with those financial bailouts from 2007-2008.

I meant... and listen to this. The Highway systems were initially made using money made from.... Wall Street. So without that horrible big business, it likely wouldn't have happened.

I really think you need to go read more about the subject because you really are stupidly ignorant of it.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=old&doc=88

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Interstate_Highway_System

That's why there are black people in the TEA Party, right?

Yeah, ya'll do need a couple of token Uncle Tom's, don't ya... lol... :D

That's why the TEA Party kicked out anybody who said something racist, right?

Only after the press jumped all over them. We know what you all really feel.

As for rip-offs, look no further than the Government. They're the ones who keep upping the price-tag for anything they make or do.

No, I look to your buddies on Wall Street. Bear Sterns, Lehman Bros., etc, who got sweetheart deals from the government at the taxpayer?s expense. Along with eight years of economic mismanagement from the Bushtard administration and it's corporate pals.

That isn't nothing. Learn your history before you run off at the mouth.

Wow, you know how to list things! YOUR POINT?

Excuse me? I might be slightly overweight, but I give to charity as much as I can.

Oh I see, so people less fortunate that you have to rely on your benevolence. Otherwise they starve.

In a pig's ass, they do

I already debunked the idea of racist.

No you didn?t. The only thing missing are the white sheets you wear over your heads in private.

It is not the role of society to make sure that everyone succeeds. We're promised Equal Opportunity, which I enjoy.

Which will happen through legislation. It will not happen because you decide to give to the Salvation Army every once in awhile.

We're not promised Equal Results.

That I will agree with. Good job, rightard.
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And you're still dense - pt. 2
LTV10 Updated - 15th Aug 2010
And I'm paying taxes which pay for those.

So am I. And?

The roads suck around here, and the utilities are going to be skyrocketing if the government actually passes their environmental crap.

If it hadn't have been for government, you wouldn't have had those roads and utilities in the first place. You'd be living in some Third World-like hovel somewhere ruled by an elitist class.

Then give businesses incentive to run it everywhere.

Which I'm all in favor of subsidizing, dumb_ass. That's been the whole point all along. But that's going to require either a direct subsidy through cash or an indirect subsidy through tax credits. It's not gonna happen out of sheer good will.

Are you comparing electricity to Broadband? Broadband is not the only form of internet out there.

You're talking about them making you pay for broadband that you don't want. I'm questioning you as to how they're gonna make you pay. Are they gonna land black helicopters in your back yard and have you arrested for not doing so? Well?

I'm just pointing out how stupid you sound.

I thought everyone had telephone lines according to your logic. This would be so much cheaper on everyone to just put DSL out there.

Not everybody has access to DSL. I know I don't where I live. And to lay out even DSL cable to all the places that dont have it would be as expensive as fiber optic. Might as well go fiber since the bandwidths are unlimited.

I'm using wireless right now.

So what. So am I. Through a wireless router connected to a cable modem. Through an uncompetitive captive-audience monopoly cable company that's subsidized by sweetheart deals with local government and probably gets Federal tax breaks on the side. Do you plan on creating cafe-like hot spots out in the country so all those folks can be connected?

Get real.

And 3G will never carry the data load fiber can. It's subsequently being replaced by 4G which still can't compete with fiber.

Why do you assume I'm selfish just because I don't want to pay for your luxuries?

You're not paying for a luxury. You're paying for wire. Nothing more. You're just too dense and stupid to see that.

What else of yours should I pay for? Not everyone has access to cable TV, some just have analog or satellite. Should we subsidize that too?

Keep up with the red herrings. You're still amusing.

That's comparing a good service to a primitive one. DSL and wireless are not primitive.

That's because you're still stuck in the immediate past, which I expect from wintards like you who can't look beyond the next quarterly statement. We're talking about the indefinite future here, and not relying on technologies that will soon become as outdated as the spoke wheel.
The idea seems to be missing in all this noise that a national broadband policy would benefit parts of the country that currently have little or no opportunity for high-speed connectivity. Moreover, in a time when we're searching for gainful employment for so many of our countrymen, a national broadband program could contribute to employing people who are currently looking unsuccessfully for work.

So - what's missing? I suggest that it's resolve, short-sightedness (who needs this internet thing anyway?), and the necessary capitalization (truly hard to justify in the current political rough-house, when cutting the deficit seems to be everyone's primary concern). This country once had the will and found the means to do rural electrification, the interstate highway system, the transcontinental railroad, and earlier, regional canal systems, all to further commerce and develop new business ventures, among other things. I think this nation has gotten pretty timid and petty compared to our ancestors; what a great legacy to leave to our children and grandchildren. Small minds, small ambitions, small potatoes - what a legacy...
@dbarr@...
You want to find gainful employment for people, then invest in the companies that will hire them. In that way not only have you helped get people jobs, but you have gained in the process as well. THAT is the symbiotic relationship that occurs in a market economy, and it has some very self-sustainable qualities. A socialist economy is a myth, and there is nothing that can sustain it other than taking more from the work of others.

Aside from business investments, there are also plenty of charities that help people. Find (or found) one that takes contributions given willingly to expand those things you feel are necessary. Hell, I'll probably even contribute something into them (contrary to popular belief, I actually am pretty generous with my hard work).

I submit that it is actually the "social economy" people who are short-sighted. They are trading the future for a quick fix now. Unfortunately, that future never materializes because some new imbalance will always occur, requiring still more of our hard work to be taken "for the general good".

Your impression of what made our ancestors succeed seems to be based on some incorrect - or possibly incomplete - information. Business investment supported much more of our growth in the past, and there was much less spent from "government" programs. And those of us who recognize this can see how those misguided programs have actually weakened us rather than strengthening us: we are becoming more and more dependent on them. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, and government bureaucrats and socialist-minded people always think that social programs are the only way to solve a perceived problem.
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Contributr
OK let's try a different question...
zwhittaker 12th Aug 2010
I'll see if I can poke you all with patriotism... would you consider paying as an additional tax, $0.50 a month to develop a nationwide broadband, just so you can say that the great United States of America is the world leader in broadband technology?

How about - all the people who currently don't have broadband or even access to the Internet (because this is my argument, broadband would get EVERYONE online) - what amazing things would this do to your economy? How many hidden, talented people would come out of the woodwork and contribute something amazing to your society?

What do you think? happy
@zwhittaker
Actually, I have no problem with a business charging whatever price their market will sustain, even if that price includes an additional amount to give them the capital for pushing their infrastructures into other areas. Or even better, starting up your own company, develop a business model and get investors on board to help fund the enterprise.

You may become very successful.... on the other hand, you may find that it's not a viable business venture because you can't get any subscribers signed on to pay for it. Hopefully the former scenario will be the result, but if it is the latter, then it's a good thing that we didn't FORCE people to pay into it through some short-sighted government program.

I don't object to investments which bring the infrastructure to people. What I object to is the idea that it requires a government-lead social program to get it done.
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Contributr
@goff256 It wouldn't be a lump sum for one single month to solve the problem. Think outside the box and don't be so literal or pedantic. $0.50 x 200 million (for example) = $100 million in a month. That's enough to get the ball rolling until next month, right?
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Not really
Michael Alan Goff 13th Aug 2010
AT&T has poured hundred of millions of dollars into their coverage zone by themselves. They even had the preexisting hardware required.

Imagine how much it's going to take to buy all of the materials needed alone. Then we have to pay for the planning, the workers, and everything else. The problem is that there are huge stretches of land that would be rather hard to do this with.

And, of course, you have the bureaucracy. I don't trust the US Government to not take that 200 million for that first month and not just sit on it or to use it for something else. We have a debt that will soon be larger than our GDP.

Our Government absorbs money like a sponge absorbs water. Maybe better since the sponge lets loose the water every once in a while.
Explain to me how broadband is similar to water.
Explain to me where the federal government has the right and authority to provide nationwide broadband. (We have a constitution that restricts the federal government unlike the U.K. and other countries)
It seems like the U.S. did very well when it lived by the original constitution. Not doing so well now.
The U.S. cannot survive under the current debt load and so how do you propose that this little broadband luxury be paid for?

The average age of the world?s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence; (here's where the U.S. is)
From dependence back into bondage.
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@mrissman1@...

Explain to me where the federal government has the right and authority to provide nationwide broadband. [...] It seems like the U.S. did very well when it lived by the original constitution.

Explain to me where the government had the right and authority to provide the national highway system. Or the railroad system before that? Rural electrification? Universal telephone service?

It's like water because it was the government that built, for example, Hoover Dam, and created a water supply that an entire region's agricultural industry depends on. Is your vision so lacking you can't see similar results from building out broadband?

Idiot.

You climb on the shoulders of others and pull the ladder up behind you. The sad part is you think you're being honorable.



@none none
Oh, so quick to attack the person, and not debate their points.

Please, do tell, where in the constitution are government "rights" enumerated. Actual text would be exquisite.

Free clue: There are none, because the government has no rights. The people hold all of the rights, and grant the government limited power to maintain and protect the union of states.

Here's a thought exercise for you: why do you think our constitutional government was formed this way?

And please don't try to justify future government power grabs by pointing to past ones. Merely because there is precedent that the government took on some extra-constitutional authority in the past does not mean that people have to subjugate themselves to the same now.

It's truly sad how you have to proclaim your own ignorance so loudly. Perhaps it is YOU who thinks the world revolves around him/herself.
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Highways and railroads.
Michael Alan Goff 13th Aug 2010
@none none

Were paid for through the fruits of the free market.

Rural electric hasn't actually given electric to all areas despite pouring money into it.

The Universal Telephone Service... are you a fan of that? You should know that it hasn't been completed, and that the FCC is trying to take that money top pay for this new initiative. How much money should we need to give the Government?

By the way, I still remember the last time they interfered with companies. They pulled apart Ma Bell to try to lower prices. Immediately, prices went up and services lowered along with quality.
It would be interesting to know how many of the "negative" responders to this article are doing so through dial-up. 50%, 25%, 10%, none?

This argument strikes me as another example of "I've got mine (broadband access), screw the rest of you. We have kids living in southern Michigan township. Thanks to some rather complex laws setting out exclusive coverage areas, there is broadband on one side of the road. On the other side nada... at any price, even if they were willing to pay for the cost of tunneling under the road (which they were).

It is increasingly becoming a broadband only world. I participate the the AARP member forums which were recently given an extensive update. You know what has been consistently of of the biggest single complaints? That the site now takes forever to load using dial-up. Leaving aside the question of whether the AARP staff should or could "dump-down" the site to dial-up standards, it points out the fact that, as web sites become more complex, they become increasingly inaccessible to dial-up users. This at the same time that state and local governments are moving essential services to the web in order to cut costs and improve efficiency.
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I agree
Michael Alan Goff Updated - 12th Aug 2010
@JakeRader

Also, I'd like my iPhone 4. That's another luxury I can't afford for myself. How about a Mercedes Benz? I mean, I'm going to need a good car to get and keep a job. Where does my responsibility as a person end and where can I start relying on the Government?

Oh, by the way, those laws that screw you over are laws made by the Government. Good to know you want the Government running something they already screwed up for you.

Edit: Your argument also relies on everyone without broadband not being able to access it. Some people are just happy without it, and that might be a higher percentage with the elderly.
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Where competition falls apart
tonymcs@... 12th Aug 2010
Of course no-one likes to think of the real meaning of competition which is the law of the jungle. Great for the predator, but not too good for the prey.

It's been accepted for a long time in Australia that with any communications medium will need to subsidise those citizens living in remote areas. So Telstra (once our only carrier before they ruined it with competition) was always expected to support remote users. No one really has a problem with that (at least in Australia)

We are currently facing an election next week where one party is proposing a 43 billion dollar 1 gigabit national broadband network with fibre to the premises anf the other party is promising the same as usual, talking about wireless and 1.2 megabit connections coupled with encouraging competition to supposedly help remote users.

All countries need a high speed data communications infrastructure. It's certainly obvious to kids and it should be obvious to anyone else.

But perhaps the US should just limp along until one of their precious non- socialist entrepreneurs gets greedy enough to help remote users - good luck.
@tonymcs@...
You lack of understanding of a market economy isn't very helpful. Also note that without competition, innovation is not nearly as focused nor as efficient.

Your Australian example, as presented, is actually demonstrating how badly the government mucks things up.

First off, I'm at a loss in how competition "ruined it". In the long run, competition will require the entities to grow, which means that they will be forced to expand their services into those remote areas. Of course, this assumes that a market for services in those remote areas even exists, and if a market doesn't exist then it is a huge waste of taxpayers resources to pursue it.

Another way that your example shows the misguide nature of using government programs is that it now becomes an ingrained part of political process to promise goods and services in exchange for votes. This is usually considered bribery and used to be widely viewed as a corruption to free society.

And lastly, maybe dragging broadband out to remote areas is the least effective, least efficient way to provide them services. Unfortunately governments, with their programs, will happily spend everyone else's hard work to push an idea which may be horribly misguided. They have no reason to do it better because they have the monopoly. Competition, instead, will favor those who can do it better, faster, cheaper.

Again, people have to stop looking at the ends, and try to analyze whether the means are actually the best way to do things.
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If people don't know what the internet can enable (and has already enabled) then they're not going to know that it has that value for society. Most people in the US are inundated with the market marketing itself as the only thing that exists. Therefor it is no surprise that this obfuscation of the internet's value shows up as ignorance on polling data.
@Hobyx
I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I sincerely doubt that people in the U.S. don't understand the value of the internet; or more specifically, of high-speed internet connectivity. In fact, most of us already have access to it, and many of us have jobs which rely on it very day.

Additionally, in my own case, I was there using it in some of it's early incarnations. Even before dial-up was available to access it for home use.

I don't believe that people, in general, don't understand it's value.
This is a very complex subject that can't possibly have a simple answer. In the future, broadband should be available to anyone who wants it at a reasonable price. Today it's a rip-off.
@Micromush
Do you mind if I ask how you have determined that it is a rip-off?
@JeffLS
Unless you use the same provider for TV service, phone service, and Internet service, you are paying way too much for broadband service. Some of us can't use the same provider for everything, because everything is not offered by some local providers. Where I live, I have a different provider for TV, Internet, and broadband, and my monthly bill is about $230. I could have it all for about $72 dollars if one provider offered all services.
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