ie8 fix

Another Windows 8 tidbit: File management to get an overhaul

By | August 24, 2011, 5:32am PDT

Summary: Microsoft’s Windows 8 engineering team is continuing to trickle out information on some of the changes coming with the next version of Windows. Today’s tidbit is about how file management/copying will be getting an overhaul.

Bit by bit, the Windows 8 engineering team is revealing some of the under-the-covers changes coming with the next release of Windows.

In the latest (August 23) posting to the “Building Windows 8″ blog, Program Management Director Alex Simons shared more about what Microsoft has been doing to tweak the copying/moving/renaming and deleting of files in Windows.

(And if you think this is a “who cares” kind of thing, at 8:30 a.m. ET on August 24, there were nearly 150 comments on this post, the vast majority of which are from people with real ideas and opinions on the topic. With Windows, there is no feature too insignificant to merit lots and lots and lots of heated feedback.)

The core file-management commands in Windows 8 that handle so-called “copy jobs” are going to be optimized for high-volume, concurrent simultaneous use, according to the new blog post.

Currently, fewer than .45 percent of Windows 7 PC users (a number brought to you by the infamous telemetry gathering done by the Windows team) are using third-party tools optimized for these kinds of jobs. While Microsoft still sees a place for third-party copy-job add-ons, Simons maintained, the Windows team is going to be adding to Windows 8 new functionality to the Windows Explorer to handle high-volume copy jobs.

“Our focus is on improving the experience of the person who is doing high-volume copying with Explorer today, who would like more control, more insight into what’s going on while copying, and a cleaner, more streamlined experience,” he said.

The post includes a new video of how Windows 8 will tackle file-copying tasks, as well as lots more granular details about the coming copying experience (including new dialog-box options for resolving conflicting file names, etc.).

As a number of commentators on the five “Building Windows 8″ posts that have been published in the past week are quick to note, Microsoft still hasn’t shared information on many key topics of interest about its coming Windows release (especially around the development-tool story beyond HTML5/JavaScript). Microsoft officials are not expected to talk about this information until mid-September at the Build conference.

Today, by the way, is the 16th anniversary of the launch of Windows 95, for all you granular-tidbit-loving Windows watchers…. And it’s also the 10th anniversary of the release to manufacturing of Windows XP, as my ZDNet colleague Zack Whittaker notes.

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

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Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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What is needed is a new file system and a new file manager, or a new OS
cheryljosie 3rd Apr
Linux has many different types of file systems available, optimized for whatever job you have to do. There is no issue moving or copying files, whether from the command line or from a file manager. If you need a different file system, you can reformat the volume. If you do not like the file manager, you can install another one.

This is only a problem for Windows because Microsoft has only three types of file systems: NTFS, FAT, and FAT32. They all have major shortcomings. Windows has only one disk management tool. Windows has only one file manager. All of their tools are optimized for marketability to the under-user, not the super-user.

Linux was built around a streamlined kernel and file system and it has only gotten better with time. Windows will never catch up, which is why Linux has the server market locked up compared to Microsoft.

It is good that they want to improve, but really, it is past time for Windows to either molt or die.
What's needed is a File system overhaul.
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Contributr
File/storage system overhaul
Mary Jo Foley 24th Aug
Hi. Maybe that is coming, too. As I've noted previously, a member of the File Server team is on tap to speak at the Build conference....

http://blogs.technet.com/b/josebda/archive/2011/08/17/i-will-be-speaking-at-the-build-conference-next-month.aspx

MJ
@Return_of_the_jedi

Why? There's nothing wrong with the file system.
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@Cylon Centurion

There are LOTS of problems with the file management. Like when you copy a large file, the actual system performance pigs out. If you copy a lot of files, the system spends half its time just *counting* them. Something as trivial as moving a folder can take forever when it should just be moving an entry in a directory table.
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@Cylon Centurion Windows doesn't know to inform the application that file location has changed. You have to locate the file and open it. This is for scenarios like the most recent files menu in an application.
@adacosta38

Is there a way to actually do that? Considering the billions of third party applications out there, how would the developers be able to code something like that?
@TheWerewolf

That's because file explorer is a pig. Try doing the same things in the command prompt. It is significantly faster.
@adacosta38

Actually if you move a file on a system using NTFS to another NTFS location on the same computer, it will be able to find the moved file and then update the launching shortcut. The concept is called "link tracking". It's only when you change file systems in the move (NTFS to FAT32 for example) that the Windows file system will not be able to follow the file.

For your reading pleasure:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363997(v=vs.85).aspx
@Cylon Centurion
nothing wrong?
You've never moved a folder with thousands of files to another folder or computer, and after waiting 1+ hours, have it fail in the middle? (due to network or bad file or other issues...) And then not know which files were moved and which were not? And then have no way to resume the process, and instead have to scream at Windows because it has to waste your time doing it again and that you have to babysit it for hours?
No, really?

Or how about accidently moving a file or folder in with the mousepad on a high resolution system, and not know just WTF happened, and where that file or folder went?
@voltrarian

Can't do anything about the interrupted bulk file operations, but if you accidentally drop a file/folder into a mystery location, CTRL-Z can save your bacon. It will pull the moved files back or delete the copied ones as appropriate. IIRC, there are some limitations if the target and source drives differ, but it's at least a partial parachute.
@voltrarian

"You've never moved a folder with thousands of files to another folder or computer, and after waiting 1+ hours, have it fail in the middle? (due to network or bad file or other issues...) And then not know which files were moved and which were not? And then have no way to resume the process, and instead have to scream at Windows because it has to waste your time doing it again and that you have to babysit it for hours?"

-------

I totally agree with you. Bulk file copying through Windows Explorer is horrible and has a lot of room for improvement. That's why I use robocopy for most bulk copy tasks. If I need features beyond what robocopy is capable of (usually VSS), I use ViceVersa Pro.
@voltrarian
>Or how about accidently moving a file or folder in with the
>mousepad on a high resolution system, and not know just WTF
>happened, and where that file or folder went?
Next time you do that, try hitting . Where it gets bad is when you don't realize that you just did that and come back later looking for the file or folder which got moved. That's where file-indexing starts to look pretty attractive.
Linux has many different types of file systems available, optimized for whatever job you have to do. There is no issue moving or copying files, whether from the command line or from a file manager. If you need a different file system, you can reformat the volume. If you do not like the file manager, you can install another one.

This is only a problem for Windows because Microsoft has only three types of file systems: NTFS, FAT, and FAT32. They all have major shortcomings. Windows has only one disk management tool. Windows has only one file manager. All of their tools are optimized for marketability to the under-user, not the super-user.

Linux was built around a streamlined kernel and file system and it has only gotten better with time. Windows will never catch up, which is why Linux has the server market locked up compared to Microsoft.

It is good that they want to improve, but really, it is past time for Windows to either molt or die.
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I hope, given all the low level changes...
TheWerewolf Updated - 24th Aug
That finally we get rid of the 255 path/filename limit. Seriously - having a 3TB drive that can only safely and consistently have paths 255 characters deep because of some old, crufty Windows 98 limitation is insane.
There is the UNC extension \\?\ but it's extremely inconsistent (ie: doesn't work at all in the System.IO File class in .Net).
Also, finally - can we get rid of 'prohibited characters' in file/path names? There only needs to be two at the VERY most (':' and '\') and even THESE don't need to be prohibited if they put in a system-wide file/path name exception marker like Unix and Linux has had since the 1960s.
@TheWerewolf,

Agreed.
to dumb down my file names when I need to send a copy to a Windows user.
@TheWerewolf
>>Also, finally - can we get rid of 'prohibited characters' in file/path names? There only needs to be two at the VERY most (':' and '\') and even THESE don't need to be prohibited if they put in a system-wide file/path name exception marker like Unix and Linux has had since the 1960s.

Not likely to happen for at least a couple more major iterations of the Windows core, IMO. For better or worse, MS is dogmatic about backwards compatibility. Until their virtualization environment is fully mature, I don't see them changing something that fundamental. If only they'd kept developing Cairo, perhaps the whole drive letter and path paradigm would be dying a deserved death.
Explorer was always a problem for me if you tried to copy a large # of files, taking potentially hours, and if one was locked or something, it would just abort.
Nobody who knows anything about anything leaves telemetry turned on, they don't like MS having a pipeline into their computer no matter how theoretically benign. As a result the only information MS gets is from people who think that if the IE icon goes away they've lost the internet. That's why we have the god awful ribbon interface and whatever hellishness is coming in Win 8 (look at Gnome Shell and Ubuntu Unity to get an idea). Given the reliance on telemetry we can predict the Windows UI will be worthless for power users within the next two iterations.
@TheWerewolf

(Not given the option to reply to your post for some reason)

I agree, in fact I would say by far, it is Windows biggest Achilles heel - how disk access can just cripple performance. I can easily bring a dual-core system to its knees by just copying a single huge file, this has been tested across a huge variety of systems. OSX in my experience does not suffer from this, the GUI remains relatively snappy and searching is fine as well. Win7 just grinds to a halt until the copy job is finished.
@Nitz_Walsh
It's interesting that Windows has this problem but Android doesn't. (I'm an Android developer). I have a catalog program that I wrote for our sales people that downloads a database with thousands of pictures that has to be unzipped and copied to the relevant directories and you would have no idea it is actually running. The same thing on Windows running in the background brings the system to its knees even when its happening on an equivalently fast disk as is in the Motorola Xoom.
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We use a system that does that
William Farrell 24th Aug
@Nathan A Smith
smae thing, and it does it in the background, and doesn't cripple the system in Windows, you don't even notice

Not knowing you programming level in Windows or Linux, but is it possible it's the program you wrote at fault, and not the OS?
@Nitz_Walsh: I agree, in fact I would say by far, it is Windows biggest Achilles heel - how disk access can just cripple performance. I can easily bring a dual-core system to its knees by just copying a single huge file, this has been tested across a huge variety of systems.
I've been using TerraCopy for moving files. It looks like this will mirror some of that functionality.
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Print
kamran.younis@... Updated - 24th Aug
I would like to select a whole bunch of files and send them to the printer at once. Presently it only works for one file at a time.
@kamran.younis@...

Wrong because i just sent 8 different documents to the printer at the same time and they all printed perfectly..
@Knix96 Not sure how you did that! Try selecting multiple files/file-types, a txt, a jpg, a doc and right click to print; it doesnt even show that option! But when we rt click them one at a time, it gives Print option in the context menu. The context menu should be a "union" of all the possibilities.
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I really, REALLY like the changes laid out in this video. It looks like they're addressing MANY of the annoyances that have brought me to the place where, for extremely large copy operations, I just use the filezilla client and server and connect to the loopback. Here's a few other things that need tweaking that weren't addressed in the video...

--Start copying files while counting them. I'd rather it finish faster than waste time counting the number of files it's planning to copy.

--If copying a large number of files with a handful of name collisions, or a CRC error, UAC permission prompt, etc., copy what is possible to be copied and queue conflicts to be dealt with at the user's convenience.

--Copy functions should be set so that they queue by default and can be force-started for concurrent copies, instead of force-paused. This setting should be something to the effect of "always queue", "queue unless destinations are on different drives", or "always start copies immediately".

--If a folder is copied, further options need to be available: replace destination folder (i.e. deleting whatever's there), replace existing files but keep whatever is there already, show a collision dialog for any matching files, or don't take files that already exist in the destination.

As far as the file system replacement goes, I'd TOTALLY be down for Microsoft making ZFS a usable file system in Windows 8.

Joey
I am still expecting a far better UX for Windows 8 than what has been shown in the latest two videos. Where is this Metro styling?
Windows 8 won't appeal 2012 consumers with such an outdated appearance.

Let's hope this is using the old Windows 7 themes to keep the new stuff under wraps.
@TheCyberKnight It's a part of the new start page.
I don't know what else if anything is going to be updated though, besides Internet Explorer's new touch friendly UI. and the snap view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I (I promise this isn't some dumb picture video, it's off the microsoft channel)
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Windows File System
Robert Hahn 24th Aug
Somebody refresh my memory: wasn't a huge file system upgrade supposed to be part of Vista, and the reason Vista was so late? Something about ditching the file & directory model for something more like a DBMS?
@Robert Hahn
Yes, WinFS. It was dumped, and some parts of it integrated into SQL Server 2008.

The cool features that WinFS would have brought have been implemented through improved indexing and search.
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A sideways view on windows File Structure
petermat@... Updated - 24th Aug
For many of us, the file structure windows supplies could be simplified significantly. I am thinking first of all the multiplication that goes on under "Users". I am the sole user of several systems, yet (having done a clean install of 7 from XP) I have "All Users", "Default", "Default User" "Public", "Updatususer" and oh yes 'me'! I do not argue that none of this should exist, for some situations some or all of this may be of benefit. However all I need is "User" leading directly into what "me" does now. A few simple questions on installation (changeable later via the control panel) would quickly show what was needed, and the appropriate structure provided. Similarly with Libraries. Undoubtedly some folk have similar information on several physical sites, and for them this is a great feature. I don't, so libraries are just extra redundant clicks to get to where I am going. Also "Homegroup". I am sure this is useful to someone, but I have not created one, but the icon is displayed in Explorer nevertheless. I am sure with some more thought, even more simplifications / tailorings to the individual user could be made.
I'd still like to see the file system upgraded for data reliability assurance. A ZFS-quality file system is still needed to deal with inevitable bit-rot as the hard drive capacities keep increasing.
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How about a Folder Size column in Explorer?
UrNotPayingAttention 24th Aug
should be very easy, and I know it's a default feature in non-MS o/s, plus with Win 7, several 3rd part tools to provide this basic info were rendered incompatable
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Anyone noticed the Ribbon UI
windowseat Updated - 24th Aug
Seems like they confirmed that Explorer will indeed have a Ribbon UI at about 1:25 in the video notice the context menu options in the background. The full ribbon is collapsed but you can see the typical chevron to the right of the menu area.

Welcome changes, but can they please overhaul the Windows Registry. Isn't it about time that third rail see some advancement. Hard to believe that apps can still just install all over the place with no traceable audit log and leave a trail of litter behind when you try to remove them. But as a user, I can't even ask a basic query of my system like "where are all the associated entries installed by this application".
boy microsoft is going wrong again do you want your files in the cloud but it is no where in the usa at all and they say windows 8 will run games but it will not run games run the specs and whet you fine and windows will be live that means in the cloud so no net no windows and you files will be daved in the cloud and any one can and will get your files microsoft is on the wrong road again
@jt59
Stream of consciousness dumps do not read well, in posts or emails.
@Patanjali
Agreed, they should also work on spelling and grammar when making an Argument.
No net, no windows is a huge exaggeration, especially when the thing also has the windows desktop available with native apps alongside the new start-menu page.
@Patanjali
Agreed, they should also work on spelling and grammar when making an Argument.
No net, no windows is a huge exaggeration, especially when the thing also has the windows desktop available with native apps alongside the new start-menu page.
@jt59
Boy Microsoft is wrong again do you want your files in the cloud but it is nowhere in the USA at all! and They say Windows 8 will run games but it will not run games at all
(I think that's what s/he was going for, but it seems rather hyperboil),
Run the specifications and see what do you will find
(games made in html5/javascript, and what does this have to do with zdnet?, you could have complained in Cnet).
Windows will be live that means in the cloud so no internet no Windows" (They forgot about html5 local storage, which cloud services can use to store data on the users computer provided they have permission and being a one trick pony essentially depending only on either direction, cloud or strictly hard drives, by itself is dumb if not done correctly, use a combination of cloud and offline storage for intelligent but convenient storage)
"and your files will be saved in the cloud and any one can and will get your files"
(depending on actual security standards, and user stupidity, If I have personal access to your hard drive, and you have 12345 as a password, it wouldn't be hard to steal all your personal data even with out "cloud" access) "microsoft is on the wrong road again" (this persons rant not only had to be corrected for spelling and what little grammar abillity I can muster, but also was filled to the brim with worst case scenarios and things that had NOTHING to do with the actual topic, such as games, or maybe I didn't know Drive C was a two player game)
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File Save Dialog
chris@... 24th Aug
Windows Explorer is a pain but at least there are 3rd party replacements. In contrast, the File/Save (etc.) dialog boxes in Windows applications (Office, etc.) are almost unusable because they default to the current user's space on the local drive. Thus, network users are faced with multiple mouse clicks just to save a file. At least I should be able to customize this in some way?
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Use Libraries
surfasb 24th Aug
@chris@... OR

You can just add those locations to the Library. Libraries show up in every Open/Save dialog. Yes, you can even add network locations to the Library, then sort them and include a default save location.

Learn to abstract.
@TheWerewolf
some punctiation may not be used in file/folder names because are reserved for the command prompt, as pipe and mainly the ampersand and quotation marks wink

imagine one in a CMD window xcopy a&b.txt would have to always enclose it in "". likewise, % is for environment variables and parameters (well, would be "workaroundable" if the shell prompt could notice if only one be present and then consider as a part of a path instead of an errored typing of some variable spec, but may be a terrific logic to write wink
would be of great value some feature to track MOVED files.
many support calls are from users complaining about file "deleted" in shared use PCs, and worst they always do not remember the real "name" of the file was "lost" so we have any way to search for it in the file system... and, this helps to proliferate versions of same file, besides wasting HD space.
As server 2012 I guess will share same base code, some feature for recording moves would be VERY usefull (even as a mere event viewer system log entry, would help a loooot).
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Explorer overhaul
TV John 25th Aug
A couple of things I'd like to see in explorer:

1: It seems to be far too easy to delete the wrong thing at the moment. There have been two or three occasions when I've thought I was deleting a single file from the the right-hand pane and I've actually been deleting an entire directory from the left-hand pane. I haven't tried to duplicate this, so I'm not sure how exactly I've done it, but it isn't a one-off.
2: Stop the way the left-hand pane jumps around as you're navigating. For example, I've just navigated to c:\Program Files\Garmin by double-clicking through the right-hand pane. Then I scroll the left-hand pane to bring Garmin up to the middle and click the white arrow to expand the directories. Garmin then shoots down to the bottom of the pane. WHY???????? What klutz thought this was a good idea? And it seems to happen so randomly, sometimes jumping to the middle of the screen. If I expand it I want it to stay where it is. The only possible exception is if there are too many sub-directories to fit in below, in which case scrolling up might be allowable.
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One thing they should do with windows explorer
Atomic1fire Updated - 25th Aug
Add tabs. Nothing more annoying then to have multiple windows open, or manage moving files with the navigation pane when it would be that much simpler to just drag the thing to a highlighted tab and add the file to that folder/drive. It just makes that much more sense.
The dumbest thing in Windows - when a file or app or shortcut is right clicked, "Open" is shown. Who in the world right click's an icon and then click "Open" to launch an app or open a file!! Please give Windows 8 some commonsense, Microsoft!
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RE: Another Windows 8 tidbit: File management to get an overhaul
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RE: Another Windows 8 tidbit: File management to get an overhaul
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
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