All About Microsoft

Mary-Jo Foley

How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

By Mary Jo Foley | February 13, 2012, 1:03pm PST

Summary: Line-of-business application developers — including those working at Microsoft — have two possible paths to follow to make their Metro-style apps Windows 8 compatible.

While there are plenty of folks who are waiting with bated breath for Angry Birds, Cut the Rope and Disney digital books for Windows 8, many I know are far more interested in how and when enterprise apps are going to show up for the next Windows release.

For developers interested in making sure their enterprise apps run on x86/x64 Windows 8 tablets and PCs, they can either build Metro-style/WinRT versions of their apps or they can expect users to run those apps via the Windows 8 Desktop. If they also want them to run on Windows 8 on ARM tablets and PCs, however, they can’t go the Desktop route, since Microsoft has decided to limit the Desktop on WOA to hosting only Office 15, Internet Explorer 10 (without plug-in support), File Explorer and some other Windows components, officials disclosed last week.

For developers going the Metro-style route, there are two possible paths are mentioned in last week’s Windows on ARM (WOA) blog post from Windows chief Steven Sinofsky. Devs can either build a Metro-style/WinRT-based for their app that will connect to back-end servers via a Web services application programming interface (API), or they can reuse chunks of their existing code wrapped in a “Metro-style experience.”

From Sinofsky’s February 13 post on the Building Windows 8 blog:

“Many apps will be best served by building new Metro style front ends for existing data sources or applications, and communicating through a web services API. This approach will be quite common for line-of-business applications and many consumer web properties, and represents the best way to tap into the power of a rich user interaction model where you can also interact across and share information with other new apps. Of course, these do not need to be just front-ends, but could operate on local data too, since WOA provides full access to files and peripherals. Other existing applications will be well served by reusing large amounts of engine or runtime code, and surrounding that with a Metro style experience. This will take some time, and represents a way for applications that are composed of significant intellectual property to move to WOA and WinRT.”

It seems at least one group in Microsoft is taking the Metro-style front-end approach. Dynamics AX evangelist and blogger Brandon George recently discovered that Microsoft is planning to deliver a Windows 8 version of its Dyanmics AX 7 client in 2013/2014. (He found this inside Microsoft’s own “statement of direction” documentation, from which the Windows 8 Dynamics AX image embedded in this post comes.)

How will they do this? The team is building a Windows 8 HTML5 front end client that will connect to a Dynamics AX service, George noted. If it sticks to those dates, this new Windows 8 Dynamics AX client would be rolled out ahead of the next major release of Dyanmics AX, which should be in 2014/2015 if Microsoft sticks to its current cadence, he said.

I am betting the Dynamics AX unit isn’t the only Microsoft team taking this approach. It’ll be interesting to see which third-party line-of-business developers opt for the HTML5 client option when thinking about how to add Windows 8 support to their apps.

Update: Simon Bisson at ZDNet UK has a related post on WOA and the enterprise where he says he expects the new plug-in-less IE Desktop in Windows 8 could serve as a launch pad for remote Win 8 apps (running using Terminal Services). So that might be a way developers can get around not being able to run legacy code on Win 8 (though performance obviously could be an issue).

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Microsoft Windows 8, Enterprise App, Metro-style, Microsoft Windows, Operating Systems, Software, Mary Jo Foley

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

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Late to the party as usual...

gtdworak 15th Feb

Considering their phone isn't setting sales figures on fire, it's pretty presumptuous to assume they'll put together a popular selling tablet, WP, and Cloud service that will come into a crowded proven environment. They won't be able to convert people already in the Apple ecosystem. So their success will be based on some percentage of new users.

Microsoft looks more like a lumbering dinosaur each day. As an Apple fan, I like Steve Ballmer's plan a lot, a real lot. May he remain as Microsoft's leader for many years to come.

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I think Metro will be a good thing for business notifications (messages).

rmac_z 13th Feb

I would therefore argue Metro should be a part of a business app (or indeed any app). I also think ribbon controls should be 'metro-fiable'. Unfortunately, this messaging will not give app developers a compelling reason to port an app (or more realistically the 'metrofied' part of an app to Microsoft's app store. I would therefore in turn suggest MS's app store model is flawed.

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They basically want METRO to be SilverLight 6

LBiege Updated - 13th Feb

That in itself is not bad an idea giving that MSFT can directly monetize from a METRO platform (tho I still think 30% royalty is a bit too high). They need to beef the data support part up a little for it to be a serious LOB platform.

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Things are looking good

P. Douglas Updated - 13th Feb

???Many apps will be best served by building new Metro style front ends for existing data sources or applications, and communicating through a web services API. This approach will be quite common for line-of-business applications and many consumer web properties, and represents the best way to tap into the power of a rich user interaction model where you can also interact across and share information with other new apps. Of course, these do not need to be just front-ends, but could operate on local data too, since WOA provides full access to files and peripherals.

Basically the approach taken by many commercial apps found on smartphones and tablets. Create a rich front end to interact with back end services.

Other existing applications will be well served by reusing large amounts of engine or runtime code, and surrounding that with a Metro style experience. This will take some time, and represents a way for applications that are composed of significant intellectual property to move to WOA and WinRT.???

Basically rewrite rich Win32 apps (like Office, Photoshop, Autocad) with a Metro UI, by leveraging a lot of existing source code, and having the code work against WinRT rather than Win32. I believe these will be the most interesting apps - though they may take a while to appear.

What I'd really like to see is compelling desktop touch computing form factors with productivity apps on them. If MS can nail down this scenario, then MS will be able to disrupt desktop computing to its favor, and leap frog Apple and the competition.

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'rewrite rich Win32 apps (like Office, Photoshop...'

rmac_z 13th Feb

@P. Douglas

and will those be deployed through the app store?

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Yes

P. Douglas 13th Feb

@rmac_z

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

@P. Douglas
"Yes"

Yeah, sure. You really think Adobe is going to give MS a 30 percent cut of every Photoshop sale? Keep dreaming. The windows app store will be a wasteland of freebie and trialware.

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Either them or a distributor+retailer.

Patanjali 14th Feb

@Nathan A Smith
Which has the lower cut?

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

xnederlandx 14th Feb

@rmac_z
I think if they deployed through the app store, Adobe is likely going to negociate with MS first to lower the cut they get.

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Then there will be no Photoshop on WOA

x I'm tc 15th Feb

@Nathan A Smith

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

@P. Douglas "Basically rewrite rich Win32 apps (like Office, Photoshop, Autocad) with a Metro UI, by leveraging a lot of existing source code, and having the code work against WinRT rather than Win32."

Yeah, and have all of your customers leave you en masse for your competitors who are providing them with "real" applications or just refusing to upgrade since the old version is again a "real" application and works just fine. Nobody is going to split their resources by developing and testing two completely different interfaces to run on windows when they can just ignore WOA and keep the singular focus on win32. It's a chicken and egg problem. Consumers are going to ignore arm windows tablets because there aren't any apps and devs are going to ignore it because their aren't any users. MS is being foolish with win8.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

bmonsterman 13th Feb

@Nathan A Smith,

I don't know what the big deal is. You're win32 apps will run on Windows 8 on the desktop, but they won't run on Windows 8 on an ARM tablet. That's no different with the status quo that you can't run Windows 7 applications on WiMo 7. The only thing that's different is that if you are creating new applications you can develop them where they will run on both. What's so foolish about that?

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So things are changing

P. Douglas Updated - 13th Feb

@Nathan A Smith,

You mean like no one is going to develop apps for two platforms like the Mac and PC (or iOS and Android) like what companies such as Adobe and Autodesk are now doing? Besides, ISVs that develop for the PC don't have much of a choice. Win32 development is winding down, and new Windows features will be available only via WinRT. Yes it's going to be a gamble for ISVs, but many will be able to see how things develop in the consumer market, which could embolden their move to WinRT. If Windows 8 does well in the consumer market, then it is highly likely that its success will propagate to the business market - like Windows 7.

Shifts in platforms are a fact of life. The PC is shifting from the GUI to the touch first interface - similar to the way the PC shifted from the Command Line Interface to the GUI many years ago. There have always been shifts in the computer market, and there will always be. This is a fact of life ISVs need to come to grips with - if they haven???t already done so.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

@bmonsterman Did you read a single word of my post or the post I replied to? Apparently not because your reply has nothing to do with either one of them.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

@P. Douglas

Devs only produce apps for the Mac and the "PC" and iOS/Android because they stand to make more than they lose by developing for those platforms. Why would they make both a win32 version that will run on windows 8 x86, windows 7, windows vista, windows xp and so on and also make a cut down winrt version that will only run on windows 8 and then have to split the revenue with MS via their app store. Not happening. And if it does, expect the winrt version to be a cut down feature-less crap trial version with the real version being win32. Metro apps are a joke for something like Photoshop or Autocad. Imagine trying to run either of those applications with one full screen metro window at a time. Hahahaha. Seriously, please put the kool-aid down before you hurt yourself.

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Things seem fine to me

P. Douglas 13th Feb

@Nathan A Smith,

ISVs for the most part won't be developing for Win32 in the future. (Much like when MS moved to Windows, developers stopped developing for DOS.) Therefore many ISVs will probably simply maintain their Win32 software, as they migrate to WinRT, and enhance their apps.

As for giving MS a cut. Don't ISVs give physical stores cuts when they distribute their software? Also after about $25,000 in sales, the Windows store cut goes from 30% to about 20%.

As for the design of rich apps, MS is developing design language to allow ISVs to do this well in Metro.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

@P. Douglas "ISVs for the most part won't be developing for Win32 in the future."

Oh yeah? Do you have any lucky lottery number predictions to go along with that?

"Don't ISVs give physical stores cuts when they distribute their software?"

Sure, in the same way that any wholesaler/manufacturer gives their retailers "cuts". I.e., not at all. You wholesale your wares and the retailers puts whatever mark up they can on it to sell it profitably. It most certainly isn't a "cut". To use that terminology shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the whole system of running a business works.

"As for the design of rich apps, MS is developing design language to allow ISVs to do this well in Metro."

How many apps have you written for Metro on Windows 8 to give such a glowing review of the tools? Oh, none? Thought so.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Djblois 13th Feb

@Nathan A Smith

I am sorry but I had to reply a markup and a cut ARE THE SAME EXACT THING. The only difference is semantics. Watch, if Adobe sold for $70 and the store marked it up to $100 or if Adobe sells through the Microsoft store (knowing they take %30) will sell it for $100 and Microsoft will take $30. In both Cases Adobe made $70 and the retailer/ Microsoft made $30.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

bmonsterman Updated - 14th Feb

@Nathan A Smith,
You're right, my post was short and didn't really tie into your post. My thoughts did come as a result of your post. I'll try to clarify:

"Did you read a single word of my post or the post I replied to? Apparently not because your reply has nothing to do with either one of them."

The post I was addressing was this:
"Nobody is going to split their resources by developing and testing two completely different interfaces to run on windows when they can just ignore WOA and keep the singular focus on win32."

I don't think that's true. First of all, when I think of Enterprise apps, I don't think we're talking about Office, Photoshop and Autocad. I think we're talking about ERP applications or LOB applications. As far as ERP, for Microsoft, that's the Dynamics suite of application. Microsoft for sure will be developing coming versions of that to work with Windows 7, Windows 8 both x86 and ARM. Otherwise they aren't presenting a unified front for their customers. For LOB applications, businesses will have a group to support the legacy Win32 applications and will eventually start developing using the new framework (WinRT) for rich windows clients.

"Consumers are going to ignore arm windows tablets because there aren't any apps and devs are going to ignore it because their aren't any users. MS is being foolish with win8."

We aren't talking about the consumer market here, I believe we are talking about businesses and ERP and LOB. (Reread the article). In this case Microsoft is marketing towards business customers who either want to develop new LOB applications or implement their using the new development framework WinRT. Adoption will come slow because businesses, since the last couple of releases of Windows, have been taking their time upgrading their desktops. Once Windows 8 and higher are mainstream, WinRT will be the platform of choice for Microsoft shops and Microsoft will leverage their marketshare in the Enterprise in order to gain access to consumer markets. Since their access to consumer markets on the tablet front doesn't look promising at the moment, this seems like a reasonable strategy.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

rbethell 14th Feb

ISVs WILL continue to make Win32 apps. Anyone who doesn't think so is kidding themselves.

Win32 and even .NET is a far richer, less restrictive environment than WinRT. Some will make a play for visibility in the app store, but don't expect much of that to happen for people doing the business productivity thing.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Third of Five 15th Feb

@Nathan A Smith "Sure, in the same way that any wholesaler/manufacturer gives their retailers "cuts". I.e., not at all. You wholesale your wares and the retailers puts whatever mark up they can on it to sell it profitably. It most certainly isn't a "cut". To use that terminology shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the whole system of running a business works."

I know that for many consumer goods, the manufacturer will have a suggested retail price for its products, but they're selling them to the retailer for considerably less (just how much less can be seen, for example, when a car salesman sells a newish automobile at "$1 over factory invoice"). In that light, the sales on the Application Store might work in a similar way--the product is sold for the MSRP, but the developer gets about 70% of that.

The only way to really cut out the middleman would be to go into direct sales, and I don't think that's going to work particularly well for Windows on ARM.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

terry flores 13th Feb

@P. Douglas - All it takes is time and money, right? You willing to pay for it?

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

smulji 13th Feb

@P. Douglas

"If MS can nail down this scenario, then MS will be able to disrupt desktop computing to its favor, and leap frog Apple and the competition."

Seeing how much they've invested in touch computing, you have to believe Apple is working on something like this. We'll just have to see who gets there first.

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You can't

rbethell 14th Feb

@P. Douglas You can't. There's no access to win32, MFC, or significant access to the .NET Framework in WinRT apps. Some of these will remain Win32 apps for the foreseeable future (which is why Microsoft is doing the do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do thing and privileging itself on WOA with desktop access.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Nathan A Smith 13th Feb

Metro and windows 8 on arm is going to be the biggest failure this side of windows phone 7. I'm popping the corn now.

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Hell, I'd be happy if half of our enterprise apps ran on Windows 7

terry flores 13th Feb

Not holding my breath for Windows 8 and the Metrosexual interface.

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I wonder what compelling reasons the Dynamics AX team have selected

rmac_z 13th Feb

HTML5 over WinRT versus AJAX.

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WinRT and ajax have nothing to do with each other. They probably will use

Johnny Vegas 13th Feb

ajax to access their backend from their html5 app. WinRT lets them integrate with the local W8 services, not the backend cloud services.

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perhaps I should have written: HTML5 + WinRT versus AJAX.

rmac_z Updated - 13th Feb

@Johnny Vegas

WinRT has communication and data APIs hence will be able to call cloud services. So my question is: if you're building a UI in HTML5 and calling the cloud, what advantages did the HTML5 + WinRT route give the Dynamics team when they could have stuck with a web front end end and AJAX.

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Access to Windows resources

P. Douglas 13th Feb

@rmac_z,

With WinRT, you gain access to UI and other Windows resources unavailable from the browser. With your app differentiated enough, and with the benefit of the app store, you will likely be able to make more money than if you made your app available from the browser.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

John Baxter 13th Feb

I'm not yet convinced that "included" doesn't mean included.

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I don't get it

johnfenjackson@... Updated - 13th Feb

This architecture sounds like an Apple-like locked-down device in the user's hand ... and a Google-like web back-end ... and nothing left of Windows bar the UI. Which would be fine if touch was the best interface for all tasks ... but I can't 'imagine' how that would be.

The dumber the user device ... the more Google win.
And even if Google don't win, Windows is now just a user interface: who wants to pay a lot for that? People will BYOD - an iPad.

This architecture seems like a strategic error.

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Not everything is done remotely

Patanjali 14th Feb

@johnfenjackson@...
Even apps on ARM devices will do a lot locally, if not all.

It is not a thin client.

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Easy solution:

Joe_Raby 13th Feb

RemoteApp.

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Still worried about Metro...

wright_is 14th Feb

My biggest problem with Metro is the "one window" or "2/3 1/3 window" split. I generally work with 5 or 6 windows across 2 screens.

For example, I write a lot of documentation, which means that I have a window with the app I am documenting, a graphics editor, a web browser for additional / reasearch info, plus the document I am currently creating (and that excludes things like a Twitter stream and Outlook, which could be reduced to tiles with relevant information 80% of the time).

I am looking forward to the consumer preview, in the hope, that some of the questions will be answered.

But the current taking seems to point in the direction of severly crippling power user workflows on the desktop, in order to make the tablet experience good.

A full screen email editor or Word document might work well on a tablet, with touch keyboard displayed, but they look plain silly on a 2560*1140 display.

It isn't just Microsoft with Windows 8 that are going in this direction, it seems that Apple with Lion and Canonical with Ubuntu seem to be going in this "full screen" direction. They seem to be ignoring the liberation that moving from MS-DOS to Windows brought us and are determined to take us back into the past, power users be damned!

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I am going to load the consumer preview on a HDD ...

Patanjali 14th Feb

@wright_is
... and see how it handles my i7 system with five monitors (3 x 30in + 2 x 21in touch).

I am a technical writer by profession and so appreciate using more than one monitor, but I have also used up 4 x 30in monitors with Access, 2 x Word, XML editor, Outlook and miscellaneous windows when doing VBA development. I need to know that Win8 will do the job.

I also do audio recording and multiple monitors are a definite advantage, especially with the number of plugins with larger, more complex GUIs these days.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

spaulagain 15th Feb

@wright_is

If you did your research you would understand that there is "Desktop Mode" that is the same as standard Windows. It is ONE button away. The 2/3 1/3 split is designed for Tablets. The "Start Screen" is just the current start menu enlarged full screen for better touch (tablet) access.

Windows 8 is not complicated. People just want to make it seem that way because its different (while the same). If Apple did something like this, people would be ecstatic by their innovation, but when MS does it, they are disgusted by their changes.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

gwade@... 14th Feb

The psychological problem will be that Microsoft will often be your competitor whereas the retailer as we normally understand it is not your competitor. So developers such as Adobe will dislike directly funding development of competing software. IF companies like Apple and Microsoft intend to make retailing a major/required part of their business then the only moral/ethical practice would be to drop out of the competing software business. Otherwise this is anti-competitive and should work up the wrath of the justice department. Without regulation then in time we will be force into getting all major software from only the big-two - giants Apple and Microsoft.

No one should naively wink at such practices which destroy innovation!

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

RF68 14th Feb

When clients demands it.

It's no different than making apps for the iOS or Android. When our clients ask us for apps for those devices we did it because our clients demanded it. The devs does not get to choose, not even the company gets to choose. Because if you don't do it and the competition is, well guess what, your clients will go see the competition more often than you. Of course our app on an ARM tablets or even phones are not the same as our app on a powerfull desktop, the same will be for Metro apps.

Lazy companies will die to make room for innovative companies that serve their clients well.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

Gary554 14th Feb

I think the value proposition that MS is trying to sell software companies is that if you move your software to WinRT you can target the both the PC and tablet (ARM and x86). The situation today is that if a software company wants to target the PC and tablet platforms they need to write a Win32 app, a iOS app, and an Android app. The danger of course is if the software companies ignore the Win32 market they miss out on the entire Windows install base. I suspect that most companies will hedge their bets by creating both WinRT and Win32 versions of their software until such a time as Windows 8 gains significant market share.

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Limited or Not at all

rhonin 14th Feb

Quite by chance I sat through an IT projects meeting this morning before I saw this.
It is for a Fortune 100 company. They are still in the process of rolling out Win7 globally to be finished by 2Q 2013. Win8 is not on the radar for other than a trial run in2013 to look at potential.
We are however rolling out support for iOS via a webserver and Android with the same and private cloud. Not sure why iOS is not part of the cloud project.....

Unless something really earthshaking comes to light, we may not see Win8 at all in enterprise (for me).

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

CobraA1 15th Feb

"While there are plenty of folks who are waiting with bated breath for Angry Birds, Cut the Rope and Disney digital books for Windows 8"

Bah, I'm waiting for Half-Life 3 :P.

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RE: How and when will enterprise apps be made Windows 8-ready?

dtdono0 15th Feb

So I assume you can sideload desktop apps onto Windows 8 (non-ARM)?
Are you not going to be able to sideload metro apps onto a WOA device without using the marketplace?

I heard MS is going to allow enterprises to make their own internal app stores. Isn't it only a matter finding a way to set up your own local marketplace, adding whatever apps you have to your private store, then installing them locally from there without MS getting a 30% cut? I assume MS is not going to be able to charge for private stores.