ie8 fix

Microsoft cancels oral hearing in EC browser-bundling case

By | May 21, 2009, 11:31am PDT

The first week of June was slated to be an interesting one, in terms of the current browser-bundling antitrust case in the European Union involving Microsoft, Opera and a growing cast of interested third parties.

But Microsoft officials said they’ve canceled their request for the oral hearing slated for June 3-5. The reason for the cancellation is detailed in a May 21 blog post by Microsoft Associate Deputy General Counsel David Heiner on the Microsoft on the Issues” blog.

The short version of the explanation: Microsoft requested the hearing to be rescheduled because the company believed that a number of the potential attendees were going to attend, instead, the International Competition Network (ICN) meeting in Zurich, which is slated for those same dates, June 3 to 5. (The European Commission is the one who chose the Microsoft hearing dates, according to the Redmondians.)

Because of the overlap in the dates, Heiner blogged:

“(I)t appears that many of the most influential Commission and national competition officials with the greatest interest in our case will be in Zurich and so unable to attend our hearing in Brussels. We raised concerns about this scheduling conflict with the Commission the very same day we were notified of the proposed hearing date. We asked the Commission to consider alternative dates and expressed our serious concern that holding a hearing during the same days as the ICN would make it much more difficult for the Commission’s and Member States’ key decision makers to attend. We pointed out that there’s no legal or other reason that the hearing needs to be held the first week of June.  We believe that holding the hearing at a time when key officials are out of the country would deny Microsoft our effective right to be heard and hence deny our “rights of defense” under European law.

“Unfortunately, the Commission has informed us that June 3-5 are the only dates that a suitable room is available in Brussels for a hearing. Thus, the Commission has declined to reschedule the hearing despite our offer to find and outfit a suitable room ourselves at another time.”

(An aside: When the hearing date originally was announced, Microsoft officials said the company’s request for an oral hearing was a formality more than a given. “To preserve right to have a hearing, need to ask by time you file your response. No decision has been made yet on whether we will actually pursue although Commission has set a date for a hearing if we pursue,” a spokesperson told me in early May.)

So what happens now? Will the European Commission issue accelerate its final ruling — which more than a few observers are expecting will be in favor of Opera and possibly involve a hefty fine plus un-bundling remedies, based on the wording of the EC’s preliminary findings in the matter — with no further input?

If Microsoft had been successful in getting the hearing rescheduled to a later date, a delay might have helped the company (at least to a degree), given summer recess schedules for the courts. But once it became clear the EC wouldn’t let the Softies reschedule, why not just go ahead and argue their case? (The New York Times has another piece of information, re: why Microsoft may have tried to seek a delay: “Any delay in the Microsoft case could have extended the outcome beyond the reach of Ms. Kroes, whose future as the Europe’s top competition official will depend on the outcome of June 7 European elections.”)

(Update: EC officials, in refusing Microsoft’s request for a new date, said they consider Microsoft to have withdrawn its oral hearing request. Microsoft officials said they do not agree with the EC’s characterization of their date-change request as a “withdrawl.” Don’t you just love lawsuits?)

What’s your gut? Do you think Microsoft’s decision to cancel the scheduled June oral hearing may end up hurting the company more than helping it?

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: Microsoft cancels oral hearing in EC browser-bundling case
makrejktt5001-24353686006706287362027889362929 11th Nov
ubzmvi,good post!
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Opera = Euro company
flatliner 21st May 2009
Do you really expect the EC to rule AGAINST one of their own, regardless if it's Redmond or any other U.S. company?
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Nope
Yensi717 21st May 2009
No chance Microsoft is going to win this one, no matter how ridiculous the entire thing is at this point. The market is handling the problem itself, with IE losing its share almost every day. Opera needs to realize that NO ONE CARES about their browser. Even if IE drops off the face of the planet, Firefox will still keep them locked away in obscurity. The EU is just doing this as a bit of chest pounding and showing that they look after their own. The juicy pile of undeserved cash sitting on the table that they get to keep for their enjoyment doesn't hurt either.
the merits, NOTHING more.
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Don't be such a Muppet
Alan Smithie 21st May 2009
Here is a list of EU actions against EU business cartels :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6383913.stm

Lifts $1.3bn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2519913.stm

Plasterboard $475m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3155384.stm

Food additives $161m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4968872.stm

Chemicals $491m

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2742890/Record-fine-for-vitamin-price-fixers.html

Vitamins $750m

And there are plenty more. Nice to know that the US Government (under Bush) let you get ripped off by shyster and flywheel companies. Luckily for you the consumer, the Obama administration is looking to clean up your backyard.

It doesn't matter where they are from, it matters how they do business in the EU and if that is to collude or operate to in a manner that is deemed to be illegally anti-competitive then they can pay the consequences.

You may wish to read this from the DOJ

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/speeches/235598.htm

Now stop reading the Daily Rabid Xenophobe and do some thinking for yourself.
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Opera is garbage & EU/EC will take anyones Money
sbass@... Updated - 22nd May 2009
Opera uses proprietary code that breaks websites using industry standards. As long as they march to their own drum they will always be a niche player. The EU is looking for a big paycheck and MS knows it.

Socialism is not cheap so they of course will take money from anyone anywhere in the world that can afford it. You know all those dirty wealthy companies that produce products and then sell them at a profit. They are so much worst than countries that steal others money and produce nothing. When will the blood sucking stop?
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EU = Biggest and Worst Monopoly.
Rama.NET 22nd May 2009
That needs to be split one more time.
They don't help common man. They make crybaby corporations of Europe more fat.
--Ram--
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Crybaby corporations of Europe
sbass@... 22nd May 2009
Great post! They are a Monopoly. They do these things in the name of the people but what person benefits from this.

Those that produce write checks. Those that need get checks. Need has no value and does not deserve a check. This is called stealing.
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Actually...
PollyProteus 22nd May 2009
...a European poster supplied me with links that are a very interesting read. The EC's antitrust laws are not about protecting the consumer ("the people" in your post), they're about protecting other businesses, no matter how crappy, to promote the illusion of competition.
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Actually... I stand corrected
sbass@... 22nd May 2009
Oh! That makes much more sense. I'm a little confused because I thought socialism was about meeting the needs of the people. I guess they can?t even get that right. I?m not surprised.

- Thanks for the correction. I have not read the information you speak of. Im sure its a good read.

EC's antitrust laws:
-If it exists - tax it
-If it moves - regulate it
-If it makes money - Fine it

wink

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That's laughable
Wintel BSOD 22nd May 2009
Coming from people who shill for the biggest IT monopoly on the planet.

Poor sour grapes. Somebody is finally taking a stand against poor victimized predatory monopoly Microshaft. Boo hoo.

LOL... grin
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Your right - That's laughable
sbass@... 22nd May 2009
Coming from a people that can?t compete because they have socialist mush for minds.

You have 3 Choices the way I see it:
-Work hard to create a better product at a better price
-Don?t compete and loose market share
-Or steal what you can?t create on your own - (EU?s Choice)

This is not us complaining but recognizing the theft for what it is. Buy into the propaganda if you must but we over here like to work for our money not steal it.

?Poor sour grapes. Somebody is finally taking a stand against poor victimized predatory monopoly Microshaft. Boo hoo?

Poor cousin (EU) asking for another dole payment from your working uncle (USA).

Who has sour grapes?
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You're laughable
Wintel BSOD 22nd May 2009
Coming from a people that can?t compete because they have socialist mush for minds.

No, we just oppose greedy, power-hungry monopolies run by capitalist pigs that refuse to work on a level playing field and put the almighty dollar above all else.

I'm an American, btw. Let's hope the Obama Administration and the DoJ follow suit.

You have 3 Choices the way I see it:
-Work hard to create a better product at a better price


Especially when you have the playing field all to yourself. Then price-gouge and lock in the masses as a captive market so they can't escape from you.

-Don?t compete and loose market share

What competition? What lost market share? When you're the only game in town, you can afford to put out mediocre, under achieving garbage like Viista.

-Or steal what you can?t create on your own - (EU?s Choice)

Aww, poor baby. Tell that to Novell, Netscape, IBM and all the other victims of M$ past misdeeds.
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Wrong Examples
lmenningen 22nd May 2009
The examples are for collusions of price-fixing (which is deemed anti-competitive), none are of design-features.

Try to find an example of a car company being fined billions for failing to make the rear seat optional (the poor consumer has to take what comes with the car).
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Modus Operandi may be different
Alan Smithie 22nd May 2009
But Mens Rea all the same by forming a cartel with OEM's and the channel
That refused to provide interoperability information to other software makers so that networked and inter-networked computers systems could work together? This information they did provide in the past, and then decided to withhold.

Oh wait, that is Microsoft, and the EC both fined and forced them to stump up the information.

Is that a good enough example?

Or perhaps you'd prefer the car example where Ford and Firestone both screwed up on setting and getting tire options matched up with SUV's resulting in rollovers and deaths etc.
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Is everyone in the EU a victim?
sbass@... 22nd May 2009
Ya! They forced a company to share/Disclose proprietary information about their software. They did it with a gun to their head. Was that right? That was just another form of stealing.

I have no clue how Ford making a mistake on tire usage or manufacture problems of a tire has anything to do with this argument. Frankly it?s a stretch. Nice try though!

Is everyone in the EU a victim? I hope not.
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Well, at least those in the EU...
zkiwi 22nd May 2009
Seem to have a clue.

Here's a hint. The EC's rules on business have been around for a long long time, and Microsoft knew what they were going in. They chose not to play by the only rules in town. You really should not be shocked/surprised/upset at Microsoft getting hammered by the EC regulators when they aren't doing what they are required to do by EC law.

After all, you wouldn't expect to succeed in playing in the NBA if you tried to claim that they should play by some other set of rules would you?

And lest you forget, the US and other jurisdictions have also found as points of their laws that Microsoft isn't doing what is required of them. So, stop the ignorant babbling, please.
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Former MS victims, yes.
fr0thy2 25th May 2009
But we're much further up the road in technology than our press release consuming friends across the water.

Would a mouse designed especially for fat hands be progress? Probably, if that's the problem/solution which you see.
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Yes of course
Richard Turpin 22nd May 2009
For Gods sake stop the bigoted "I'm a badly done American attitude?" It does no matter who or where you are if you are right thats good if you are wrong thats bad thats what democratic true justice is all about.
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Justice? HA
owner@... 22nd May 2009
That would require that justice is being done. These antitrust lawsuits, both here in the US and in the EU are farces and a slap inthe face of justice. Market share is not determined by the companies...it is determined by the users. The argument that you can't replace IE is a crock of s**t and if you believe that argument, you are not quite as intellegent as I would hope you are as an IT person. Even back in Win 3.1 you could replace IE with Netscape with no problem. I used Netscape up until version 3 when AOL bought it and then it started to lag behind while IE forged ahead. I use both IE and FF as I am aweb developer and have to test in both. SO I know for a fact that, even for the average user, setting a differnt browser as your default browser is not a difficult thing at all...you even get a popup that asks you when you install it if you want it to be your default browser. Lets at least be honest about this folks....which is something that has been completely lacking in this entire antitrust issue. The real issue is the fact that companies dropped the ball on thier own foot while MS provided features that people wanted. And no...I don't work for MS and don't even program with MS languages (I happen to dislike .NET).
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I'm a badly done EU citizen
sbass@... 22nd May 2009
Yes but why does "EU true justice" always end with a big paycheck for the EU. Are they trying to boot everyone foreign company out of the UE. If so they may get their wish. Every person that lives in the Euro zone can run Linux on AMD and browse with Opera for all I care.

This form of protectionism is what exacerbated the great depression in the 30's. Have we learned nothing?

The EU has been up to no good since they formed. I worry for the people that will some day ?I think soon? regret the powers that have been given to the EU. With every big check comes a cost to the consumer.
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Pro
And rampant Capitalist greed caused ...
I am Gorby 24th May 2009
this depression.

So have we learned nothing? I'm afraid we have not!
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What a moron...nt
transposeIT 22nd May 2009
nt
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M$ tries to delay
Linux Geek 21st May 2009
but the comission won't buy it.
M$ should better pony up the money and GPL windoze.
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Read the article
medezark@... 21st May 2009
MS asked for a verbal hearing, the commission purposely scheduled it for a time in which only a minority of the panel would be available, making the hearing worthless.

And their excuse is that apparently there is only ONE room in brussels available that will fit the entire commission, and it's only available for one week.

Besides, the whole case is bogus. There is nothing preventing anyone from installing an alternate browser on a windows machine, IF THEY SO CHOOSE, and every operating system MAC OS, the various LINUX distributions, ALL bundle browsers.

Microsoft is being unfairly singled out.
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ONE room
martin23 Updated - 21st May 2009
The trouble with MS PR is that it gets a bit carried away. Like any organisation meeting rooms need to be booked but the idea there is just ONE room in the EU is rather funny. MS assumes you have no idea how big and how many rooms the EU might have that are perfectly large enough.

MS seems to have taken a gamble which seems to have failed. Why does MS decide it knows best that the meeting date is not any good. That is for the court to decide.

As for the not too bright arguments people keep coming forward with about other browsers being loaded. If the case were that simple it would never even have got to court.

The issue is about the market leverage MS has obtained through both bundling its own browser and adding propitiatory code which prevented many sites working on other browsers. The case reflect the market when MS controlled 85% of the market. As ever things change but the case still stands.

Strangely even in Windows 7 in the latest build there is at least one function still requires the IE browser.


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Require and Enforce A Browser!
lmenningen 22nd May 2009
Every operating system should include its own browser of its own choice, and the EC should enforce that as a hard and fast rule.

And Opera needs to develop its own OS in which it would be included as a default. And the EC should enforce that, too.
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Yup they all bundle...
Dave32265 21st May 2009
browsers but MS is the only one that bakes theirs into the OS, so no matter how much you want to be rid of IE, you are stuck with it.
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and completely intertwined it.
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Intertwined
medezark@... 22nd May 2009
There was a time when the GUI was completely seperate from the operating system. Third party providers created and supplied alternate GUI's for DOS and other operating systems. The same is true for file compression, media codecs, file managers, disk operating systems, network protocols, and on and on.

Eventually, in order to improve performance and reliability, the GUI became an inextricable part of the OS (Linux being an exception).

By incorporating the browser (or almost any other core application), synergies can be made to improve the operating system as a whole. Want to allow interactive content on the desktop? Well, you can seperate rendering engine or use the one built into the bundled browser. (poor example, but you know where I'm going.)

It's the natural evolution of an operating system to incorporate into itself those features that become ubiquitous.

No, you can't disable every single bit of code which IE relies on, because so many of those bits of code are used in other parts of the OS. The web browser has become ubiquitous. Just as you can't disable the core networking stack and install your own.

But, the end user still has choice. They can install whatever browser they wish and use it. They just don't want to pay a premium to do it, ESPECIALLY when the alternate browser is feature poor compared to the bundled browser.
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and that is the point
owner@... 22nd May 2009
If IE has a better feature set than any of the other browsers, then people are goingto choose that. If one of the other browsers is better int he eyes of the users, then they will download it and use it. If IE doesn't what they want to and don;t have a need to go to a differnt browser, then they won't. It is called market dynamics. Don't blame MS for user choices...they are not twisting anyone's arm to use IE or preventing anyone from downloading and useing an alternative browser. If they were doing that, then sure, sue the Hel out of them. All this is, is sour grapes from companies that aren't getting the market share they feel they should have. So instead of building a better product, they sue MS. I guess it saves them money in thier development budget since it doesn't cost them as governments seem to be all to willing to try and take down MS.
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When I used Windows, I took it for granted that the GUI was there, never to be removed. I even thought maybe there was a good reason for it. Now I know better. Linux runs faster, more smoothly and allows more choice without crashing or lagging as much as Windows without "baking in" so many apps.

I can currently change the file system my OS uses, the GUI (gnome to KDE would take almost nothing), the browser (at least 8 choices from repositories), the media player and pretty much everything else. Yet my system is smaller than Windows, easier to maintain, runs faster with more perks and doesn't crash as often.

The natural evolution of the OS isn't to incorporate the GUI or anything else into itself. The actual natural evolution of the OS is to become more stable while allowing more features to be added on. The OS is the foundation, the GUI and media player and browser and everything else are the parts to the house on top. When you try and incorporate the house into the foundation, problems happen.

By allowing IE to be integrated into Windows, MS has made it impossible to remove IE completely from Windows. Now tell me, why is that necessary? Linux does not integrate Firefox into the OS itself, Firefox sits on top just like any other app. I can still do the same things in Linux that I did in Windows (without the security risks).

By the way, in Linux, I can disable the core networking stack, remove it completely, and add my own (freedom rocks).

Your last paragraph, completely true. The problem is, there are so many users who simply use what's preinstalled because it's there. Since Windows ships on so close to 100% of the PCs manufactured and shipped and since there is that user base who simply uses what's supplied, that means that the EU has a good case. MS does rely on its market share with Windows for IE to have such a large user base.
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integration
owner@... 22nd May 2009
They also have a right to integrate products into thier OS. the underlying engine uised for IE isthe same as the engine used in Windows explorer. it's an OS written in an OOP language, so wouldn't it make sense to have shared objects? If it was a case of you get Windows and you want to install FF and windows won't let you or won't let you use it as your default browser, then you would have a leg to stand on. But since you are able to set a differnt prowser as the default, this holds no water. I think this argument is just plain stupid and disingenous.
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And if you had read a bit more...
zkiwi 21st May 2009
You would have found that Microsoft when they requested the oral hearing did not request the "movers and shakers" be present. Adding to that they (Microsoft) gave the EC an indication that they may not in the end want the oral hearing.

Yes, of course the EC will suddenly dance to Microsoft's demands. Sorry, you and Microsoft would be wrong there.

This is just grandstanding by Microsoft.
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exactly
owner@... 22nd May 2009
yeah...the fact that it is very simple to change browsers is an often glossed over fact. As the old counter argument goes...it's like telling ford thatthey can't put a ford engine in one of thier cars. Why can mac bundle in Safari? Or linux bundle lynx in the ommand line or FF or Konquerer in the desktop. A company has the right to bundle thier software together.
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Wrong
Wintel BSOD 22nd May 2009
There is nothing preventing anyone from installing an alternate browser on a windows machine, IF THEY SO CHOOSE

Yeah but if you have to go to a Microshaft controlled website to download something, you have to use IE and ActiveX spyware in order to get it. That is exclusionary

and every operating system MAC OS, the various LINUX distributions, ALL bundle browsers.

Unlike Microshaft, the typical Linux distro doesn't make the browser. And if one is bundled with the distro, it can easily be removed, unlike IE much of who's code is embedded in the Winbloze OS itself.

Get a clue.
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for unfairly singling itself out as filthy lying cheating disgusting no-bounds greed masquerading as IT.
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Ballmer Was Still In The Buffet Line
itanalyst2@... 21st May 2009
There wasn't enough room in the courtroom to fit the plate.
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If no one's really listening
laxmanb 21st May 2009
because everyone is at a conference, a hearing really is useless. I can't say Microsoft's doing the wrong thing.

PS: and the fact that every modern OS has a browser bundled makes this case crap anyway IMO
the hearing. Any other interested parties will be able to view the documents, and MS can lobby them individually if they want, or have not already done so.

Finally, bundling is ONLY illegal when you have a monopoly, AND, MS is the ONLY operating system where the default browser can not be removed.
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What about Konquerer?
pupkin_z 21st May 2009
Have you tried to remove Konquerer on a Linux box (RedHat) running KDE? IF you do you will cripple a number of other KDE packages. THis is just one example. There are many others.

so NO, Microsoft is not the only OS where the default browser cannot be removed.

BTW, not bundling a browser or removing default browser is really silly thing to do. Imagine that your grandma need to download something after you get your brand new computer. Are you going to teach her how to use FTP? What if something happens with your favorite browser after you install a new device or add-on and re-wrote some of the DLLs and did not create a restore point? HOw are you going to go back and download the correct drivers/DLLs, or search for the solution to undo the mess? Aren't you going to be the first in line to complain that there is NO way to remedy your OS? What's likely to happen is you will get an OS DVD and install the default browser because it is the only one that relies on standard OS libraries that cannot be removed or overwritten in the cases like this.
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Easy - remove KDE and use another DTE
Alan Smithie Updated - 21st May 2009
At least you have the choice with the Linux kernel
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You can't use logic...
PollyProteus 22nd May 2009
...on DonnieBoy, he's an MS hater through and through. Your logic and facts go in one ear and out the other.

Objectivity is not in his vocabulary.

Well, not when Microsoft is the subject anyway.

Just thought you should know. happy
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You confuse the trivial with the complex.
TheWerewolf Updated - 21st May 2009
Here's why.

Suppose I make a competitive Standard C library and I want people to use it. Microsoft ships theirs with every computer - and most people use it because it's simpler to use theirs (and free) and they can be sure it's there.

So I take Microsoft to court arguing that they're abusing their monopoly and thus impairing my ability to compete. I win.

Now, suddenly Microsoft has to figure out how to remove a primary component of their OS without crippling their system.

The "Browser" as you so glibly put it isn't one thing. It's a collection of COM DLLs and system API with a thin shell on top. The *shell* is easy to remove. The moment you try to remove 'everything' related to IE though, you quickly dismember the OS.

Maybe back in 1991 an OS didn't need internet support, but today that's an integral part. You remove that and a LOT of apps - non-Microsoft ones at that - will fall apart.

As for it being the only OS that can't have its default browser removed, again, depends on what you're calling the browser - you can remove Safari from MacOS (actually - can you? Well, let's assume you can) but the actual parts like WebKit that do the real work remain. Same for Linux.

It would be insane for Microsoft to tie related services to someone else's internet libraries - on the other hand it makes perfect sense for everyone else to tie their apps to Microsoft's libraries simply because we can be sure they're there and they work as expected.

The short version is: it's simply not as simple as you make it sound. Some things should come with the OS, monopoly or not.
WANTED to be able to say it was inseparable and integrated into the OS, but, it is bad software design, and is a HUGE mess.
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software design
owner@... 22nd May 2009
Are you a developer? My guess is no, because if you were a developer, you would know that reuse of objects is good software design. Bad software design would be having seperate objects for each module that performs the same function. This is why EVERY OS has browsers bundled in with the OS so that the OS can perform other internet based functions (like error reporting, updates, etc...). They make use of objects that the browser also uses. The common library of functions, called an API, is used by any software package that accesses these functions. It ensures that there is a common and known function to perform tasks. It also enures that thes function actually function. I can remeber back when we had stuff like dialers that required thier own function libraries and that really sucked when something happened like another company used a dll that happened to be named the same it it overwrote the one for the other package and srewed it up completely. PLease learn about software and development practices before makeing ignorant statements like this. Everybody involved could stand you take a few programming and design classes so they have a fraken clue about what they are talking about.
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Ack!
zkiwi 22nd May 2009
Whoever passes for your programming teachers/mentors should have beaten you with a clue stick, or perhaps a used MCSE certificate.

You should really take the feet out of your mouth before you walk out your own butt.
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bundling...
owner@... 22nd May 2009
it can't be removed beause it uses shared objects with other parts of the OS...as it is written using an OOP lanuage. This is a very disingenous argument. The browser can be replaced as the default browser. You can still use whatever browser your heart desires. If this were not the case, then this argument would hold water.
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RE: Microsoft cancels oral hearing in EC browser-bundling case
makrejktt5001-24353686006706287362027889362929 11th Nov
ubzmvi,good post!

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