ie8 fix

Microsoft nixes '-webkit' prefix for IE Mobile for Windows Phone 7

By | May 11, 2010, 6:31pm PDT

It seemed like a good idea to some Microsoft developers (for a brief moment): Why not add support for both the -ms and -webkit prefixes in the version of the Internet Explorer (IE) mobile browser Microsoft was building for Windows Phone 7 devices?

It turns out the idea was a bad one. And it took Microsoft a single day to change its path, as documented in two back-to-back blog posts on the “IE for Windows Phone Team” blog.

A quick bit of background: Webkit is the rendering engine at the heart of a number of browsers, including those from Apple, Google, Nokia and RIM, among others. Microsoft uses its own rendering engine, known as Trident, inside Internet Explorer. When browser developers implement an experimental or proprietary CSS property, they prefix it with the appropriate “vendor prefix.”

On May 10, in a post entitled “JavaScript and CSS changes in IE Mobile for Windows Phone 7,” Windows Phone Principal Program Manager Joe Marini explained Microsoft’s plans for adding two prefixes to the version of IE (a hybrid of IE 7 and 8) that it is building for Windows Phone 7.

Community reaction was unfavorable (to put it mildly) about Microsoft’s decision to add the -webkit prefix. Daniel Glazman, the co-chairman of the W3cCSS Working Group weighed in with the following comment (at the end of the original Microsoft blog post):

“Let me state it very clearly: vendor prefixes are here for experimental purposes by the vendor represented in the prefix. I __strongly__ recommend removing *immediately* that -webkit-* property from Mobile IE.”

On May 11, the IE for Windows Phone Team did a 180. As explained in a new blog post by Marini:

“Our original intent in adding support for this WebKit-specific property was to make Web developers’ lives a bit easier by not having to add yet another vendor-prefixed CSS property to their pages to control how text was scaled. Even more specifically, we intuited that the most common use case for this property was to explicitly set it to ‘none’ in order to tell the browser not to scale a particular section of text….

“After hearing the community’s feedback on this issue (and a couple of face-palms when we realized the broader implications of implementing other browser vendors’ CSS properties), we’ve decided that it’s best to only implement the -ms- prefixed version and not the -webkit- one.”

Microsoft is putting the finishing touches on the operating system that will power Windows Phone 7 devices. A near-final escrow build of the release candidate of the Windows Phone 7 OS leaked recently. Microsoft officials have declined to say when the company expects to release to manufacturing that operating system, but the first Windows Phone 7 devices are due out by this holiday season.

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: Microsoft nixes '-webkit' prefix for IE Mobile for Windows Phone 7
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 10th Oct
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Microsoft is a minor player in mobile. Every other major vendor uses the WebKit browser. But on Windows Phone 7, there will be no choice... just Internet Explorer Mobile. The current fiasco over vendor prefixes highlights the different behavior of IE Mobile compared to the rest of the mobile industry. Microsoft should adopt the entire WebKit browser as its default, instead of digging itself into its proprietary hole of mobile death.
@Market Analyst What if it works exactly like WebKit or better?
@AdamzP As it would be a first for the IE brand, I think everyone would be extremely shocked
Microsoft is aware of Windows Phone (and Zune) connectivity issues: There have been all kinds of new and interesting Windows Phone 7 applications flooding into the Windows Phone Marketplace over the past few days. (Microsoft is now up to more than 25,000 Windows Phone apps.)
As was the case with Novell?s patents, Microsoft kept its role in the Nortel bidding process a accessmedicalbooks from this we cartecampus to get the internetparalaevangelizacion will have any pcloshwdb that can be estudielenco from secret
as long as it could. When I asked earlier in the week whether Microsoft was part of a group bidding
on Nortel?s patents, I was told Microsoft had no comment. Microsoft officials said earlier this year
that they felt no need to bid on the patents because of a sweeping patent deal they had signed with Nortel, announced in 2007, that would hold regardless of who purchased the patents.
The consortium is paying $4.5 billion in cash for the Nortel patents, of which Ericsson?s contribution
$340 million, the Wall Street Journal said on June 30. A Reuters report earlier this year said
Google was willing to pay $900 million for the Nortel patent portfolio.
Florian Mueller, an intellectual property analyst and blogger, said he found it surprising Google didn?t
outbid everyone else, especially in light of its recent patent issues around accessmedicalbooks from this we cartecampus to get the internetparalaevangelizacion will have any pcloshwdb that can be estudielenco from Android.
No major industry player is as needy in terms of patents as Google. There are already 45 patent infringement lawsuits surrounding Android and makers of Android-based devices have to pay royalties to dozens of right holders. Just this week Microsoft announced that three more Android device makers, in addition to HTC, are already paying royalties on ipad bag blog of best sutudeg community the modern education news and Googles Android to Microsoft, he said.
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That's not all it highlights.
dgurney 17th May 2010
It also highlights how utterly lame Web presentation still is, in 2010. We're still slapping proprietary band-aids on HTML to control basic text properties? Look at all the CSS "tricks" required to do such crazily futuristic things as DRAWING TABS. The Web desperately needs a real page-description language, something like PostScript but with provisions for UI description as well.
@gjafg Well said. And furthermore, Qt consortium has just created a sohbet project to use chat in a new, more tightly architected Browser. So Apple "gives back" to the company which bought Trolltech. Nokia, soon to be a direct competitor in portal phones. And home appliances with touch screen and web browsers. (Future scenario: "find me a recipe, and run it.") Intel wants those things to run izlesene , on Atom SOCs forum .

Microsoft has vast resources, due to their Monopoly-based pricing abilities. But there's about 500 full-time Developers working on WebKit. That's $50M - $100M in direct and indirect employment chat sohbet costs. If Microsoft is running a similar-sized team, all on it's own, and with all bugzilla-style reports and users' comments hidden away in secrecy, even THAT company will feel some pain:

Even with a team of equal size, they won't be able to keep up. They'll have to spend even MORE money (which they almost certainly do); and they'll also end up shipping second-class software (which they DEFINITELY sohbet odalari).
@gjafg Also, Microsoft has already committed to owning OS updates for WP7. They've adoped a completely new strategy since Windows Mobile. Handset makers and wireless carriers will no longer get to dictate which phones receive OS upgrades. Based on how well Microsoft treated Zune owners over the years.
@gjafg That is really a big question. Google's servers are the heart of Google's business. And it has long been a FEATURE, a FEATURE, not a LOOPHOLE, that one could privately modify the GPL code they use to run their business. Of course web applications are obviously SaaS. But where does one draw the line between those applications and the servers that host them? For example, take an insurance company running open source on their back end servers. At some point they decide to put a customer facing front end on those servers so that customers can access their accounts over the Net. Does that suddenly make that whole kaboodle Saas? If so, I am not sure I am comfortable with AGPL. In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with this concept anyway since it undercuts one of the few provisions that make GPL software highly attractive to businesses that are not engaged in reselling the software itself. It really compromises the spirit of the GPL in some ways.
@gjafg

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Yes WP7 would be so crippled now with only IE unless competitors write a browser in .NET CF or Silverlight. Again shows why no native apps is really such a bad idea.
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Have we learned no lessons at all?
NonZealot 11th May 2010
How nice that the web is now so standards compliant that there are no proprietary or custom tags that only work in 1 rendering engine.

When browser developers implement an experimental or proprietary CSS property, they prefix it with the appropriate "vendor prefix."

Oh. Huh. How about that. Well, since webkit is from Apple (well, stolen khtml with an Apple logo on it), I'm sure that proprietary tags is suddenly a good thing, right?

Cue the double standards...
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What about Lessons?
rdupuy11 12th May 2010
@NonZealot You apparently want people to learn lessons, step 1, speak clearly. The use of the word "stolen" is not only harsh, but entirely inaccurate. It's well known Apple used KHTML as the base. The proper term is a 'fork'. Open source allows for that, expects it, and the reason all these other browser makers are using Webkit (note I said "using" and not "stole")...is precisely because Apple did not steal anything, they stayed true to open source, by making their changes, and leaving them open source, for others to revise and extend.

In other words, that worked exactly the way Open Source advocates hoped it would, and its a beautiful thing, and Microsoft is hurting for it.
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NZ can't deal with facts...
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 12th May 2010
@rdupuy11: H*ll most of the time he can't even measure a true double standard. And given that he says that Apple stole something that is open sourced, just goes to prove he has no idea on how open source licensing works either.
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You have your opinion, KHTML developers have theirs
NonZealot Updated - 12th May 2010
I think I'll believe them over your fairy tale.

http://news.cnet.com/Open-source-divorce-for-Apples-Safari/2100-1032_3-5703819.html?tag=mncol

Two years after hailing Apple as a white knight, those developers are calling the relationship between their group and the computer maker a "bitter failure."

If that is what you call worked exactly the way Open Source advocates hoped it would , you are all alone in your judgement.

KDE volunteers said they suddenly found themselves dealing with bug reports Apple deemed too sensitive to share

Nothing like championing the open source principle of hiding vulnerabilities from the public!!!!

Apple is a multi-national, multi-billion $$$/year mega corporation. The KHTML team forgot that and they were punished for it. There was nothing beautiful about what Apple did to the KHTML team.
Agree or disagree with the word "stolen" (at least I backed my claim up with a link), the fact is that we are going right back into proprietary web built for proprietary engines and Apple is leading the charge. That is disgusting and prompts the question: Have we learned nothing?
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Seems NZ your story is a little date
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 12th May 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit
Since that article was published it seems both Apple and the KHTML team have since patched things over, there by making you a liar.
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I am not a liar. Even your link agrees that Apple acted extremely evilly when they stole KHTML. Considering Apple's consistent use of strong arm tactics (http://hartfordinformer.com/2010/04/opinions/apple-influences-police/ is just one example), I bet the KHTML volunteers were threatened to say that everything is now okay.

Nothing you say or write can change the fact that Apple acted very badly when they stole KHTML and are now using it to create a proprietary web where only Apple's rendering engine is allowed to play.
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You are not only a liar, and a troll, but also a moron.

"(at least I backed my claim up with a link), [sic]"

1) posting a link does not, per se, back up your claim. Your link certainly did not.
2) you don't put commas after parentheses.

"the fact is that we are going right back into proprietary web built for proprietary engines and Apple is leading the charge."

How is that "the facts"?!? As Apple continues to submit code under open source, and that code is used by other vendors, this is the exact antithesis of proprietary. Do you know what the work proprietary even means?

"I am not a liar."

Your posting history has made it quite apparent that you are.

"Even your link agrees that Apple acted extremely evilly when they stole KHTML."

No, it does not. The wiki posts both sides of the issue, from the their respective perspectives. And how, exactly, are you claiming Apple was "evil?" The main issues were:
1)Apple submitted their changes in large patches that contained a great number of changes with inadequate documentation, often to do with future feature additions.

In other words, Apple added a significant amount of code, so much that it was overwhelming. Evil.

2) Apple had demanded developers to sign nondisclosure agreements before looking at Apple's source code and even then they were unable to access Apple's bug database.

So Apple wanted NDAs for viewing code THEY wrote. Maybe not nice, but hardly evil. Keep in mind (with what little space you have in there to keep anything) that this was not for KHTML code, but Apple-specific extensions to the code base.

More importantly, these differences were VERY quickly worked out.

"Nothing you say or write can change the fact that Apple acted very badly when they stole KHTML and are now using it to create a proprietary web where only Apple's rendering engine is allowed to play."

Except the facts. As simple as possible:
1) Open source is FREE to use as you see fit, as long as you submit changed code back under the license. Apple did. There can be no theft. Period.
2) Since WebKit is used by a significant NUMBER of PROPRIETORS, and is free to be used and changed, BY DEFINITION, it is not proprietary.

Queue the doubtful standards
  • Flagged
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rdupuy11's excellent lesson....
Rick S._z 12th May 2010
Well said. And furthermore, Qt consortium has just created a major project to use WebKit in a new, more tightly architected Browser. So Apple "gives back" to the company which bought Trolltech. Nokia, soon to be a direct competitor in smart phones. And home appliances with touch screen and web browsers. (Future scenario: "find me a recipe, and run it.") Intel wants those things to run MeeGo, on Atom SOCs.

Microsoft has vast resources, due to their Monopoly-based pricing abilities. But there's about 500 full-time Developers working on WebKit. That's $50M - $100M in direct and indirect employment costs. If Microsoft is running a similar-sized team, all on it's own, and with all bugzilla-style reports and users' comments hidden away in secrecy, even THAT company will feel some pain:

Even with a team of equal size, they won't be able to keep up. They'll have to spend even MORE money (which they almost certainly do); and they'll also end up shipping second-class software (which they DEFINITELY do).
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Stolen or not stolen...
Kikarok Updated - 15th May 2010
...NZ still has a point about open web standards vs proprietary. -webkit- prefixed commands will only work in webkit based browsers, even if another engine can read and correctly interpret the exact same piece of code. MS had tried to make it so web developers would not have to add yet another piece of redundant code with a different proprietary prefix every time they wanted to use a certain tool to make it visible on IE for WP7, and they were met with outrage. CSS vendor prefixes are the new browser-specific tags.
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I don't care too much about the news itself but only what it shows. Lately microsoft has been doing what used to very unconventional for them - actually listening to customer and tech pundits and admit that they were wrong and accept correct solutions. This may not sound like much but if you are a multi-billion dollar company, it is actually significant. Again it's black and white - there are many other shades, I'm glad they are reacting more quick. competition bring changes. Some changes are for good.
The Open Source forking is killing the Internet when it comes to having a lot of different webkit implementations that render pages differently. At least MS is trying to do something about standardizing how browsers render! Apple and others should step up also. Oh, yea and correct the problem they are making far worse the MS ever did!
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Some good points are already made about this (A) being an old problem, now largely resolved; and (B) being a non-problem, involving "original Apple-proprietary code". The key thing was creating rules to distinguish the "open" from "Apple Proprietary" portions, and a mechanism for inspecting the Apple code to make that determination -- by people who were not in a position to "infect" the Open Code with ideas and implementations which they'd seen while looking at Apple stuff.

I'd like to also note, here, that KHTML is a kdepart-- and it depends on lots of other KDE *DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT* classes. Migrating it downwards, to run directly on the Qt toolkit (or most anywhere else), is pretty much of a non-starter.

That's why the Qt consortium has established a project to create a new Browser from WebKit, designed with much more portability than their current one. And when Qt has a fully-functional browser built right in, I'm willing to guess that KHTML will simply go away.

Remember, KHTML is only the Toolkit (somewhat like "Gecko" in Firefox). Konqueror is KDE's current browser. For implementation on the KDE Desktop, I think that Konqueror's use of KHTML will go away. Even if the Browser stays around, the underlying Toolkit will become WebKit.
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Would IE supporting Webkit Prefixes Be So Bad?
brett.sheeran@... 12th May 2010
This is not my area of expertise so please don't flame me, but would it be such a bad idea for for IE to support webkit prefixes? The latest browsers from Nokia, RIM, Apple, Google and Firefox do. Webkit seems to be the most popular rendering engine in mobiles these days (Nokia, Blackberry, Android, iPhone/iTouch/iPad. Firefox don't even use the Webkit rendering engine, but Gecko instead.
Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).
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RE: Microsoft nixes '-webkit' prefix for IE Mobile for Windows Phone 7
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 10th Oct
What concept does one imagine you are applying by yourself page ? I truly much like nfl football jerseys the fashion. Thanks for that submit.

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