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Microsoft splits up its XAML team: What's the fallout?

By | June 23, 2011, 7:38pm PDT

The development platform and tools strategy at Microsoft  is getting increasingly complex, especially around XAML/Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) and Silverlight. Here’s the latest.

Microsoft on June 20 split up its XAML team, sending part of it to Windows, part to Windows Phone and leaving part in the Developer Division, according to an e-mail from Developer Division chief Soma Somasegar dated June 20.

Why does this matter? XAML — the eXtensible Markup Language — is an XML language developed by Microsoft. From Microsoft’s own description page about XAML: “XAML is the language behind the visual presentation of an application that you develop in Microsoft Expression Blend, just as HTML is the language behind the visual presentation of a Web page.” XAML is used by WPF and its Silverlight sibling.

Here’s the e-mail from Somaseagar, sent to me by a contact requesting confidentiality:

From: S. Somasegar
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011
To: Client and Mobile Team
Cc: Developer Division FTE; Steven Sinofsky; Julie
Larson-Green; Terry Myerson; David Treadwell
Subject: Bringing together client platform efforts

MICROSOFT CONFIDENTIAL

Over the last couple of years, our Client and Mobile team has done a fantastic job of building a number of XAML related technologies that have been a huge value add to the Microsoft client platforms and an instrumental part of delighting our developer customers. The agility and customer focus that the team has demonstrated over the years has been a pleasure to watch.

Today, we are making some organization changes to bring our platform technologies under a single management structure. These changes are centered around three focus areas:

• The team working on XAML technologies for Windows will move to Windows.

• The team working on XAML technologies for Windows Phone, Xbox and browser plugin will move to Windows Phone.

• The Client and Mobile tools teams, including Windows Phone tools and XAML tools, will stay in DevDiv.

These changes are all effective immediately. From a performance review perspective, we will do this year’s performance review underthe DevDiv organization model.

I want to thank Kevin Gallo and the team for all the great work that they have done over the years. Moving forward, I’m  very excited to bring the client platform efforts closer to the platform teams. There is a lot of very exciting and critical work underway as part of our next wave of platform releases and I am very eagerly looking forward to seeing the team’s work in the hands of our developers and customers.

The follow-up emails will provide more details on thechanges to those impacted.  Please join me in wishing Kevin and the  team all the very best as we move forward.  If you have any questions about this change, please let your manager or me know.

-somasegar

Here’s what I take away from the memo:

There’s seemingly a battle between Windows and DevDiv inside Microsoft, and it sure looks like the advantage is with WinDev right now.

The “team working on XAML technologies for Windows” referred to in the Somasegar e-mail includes the Jupiter team. If you need a Jupiter refresher, Jupiter is a new UI library for Windows, as of Windows 8, that is expected to be a thinly layered on top of Windows APIs and frameworks for graphics, text, media, input and can be used to build immersive apps using a XAML based approach. Last I heard, Jupiter would allow developers a choice of programming langues. Jupiter-based immersive apps supposedly will be deployed through the Windows App Store.

Will the Windows 8 team kill or promote Jupiter, given this move? I don’t know. I’d assume the Windows client team is still planning on promoting WPF/Silverlight a development environment for line-of-business apps, but it’s not clear from the Somasegar e-mail that this is the case.

However, according to another June 20 e-mail from Julie Larson-Green, the Corporate Vice President of Windows Experience on the Windows client team, the part of the XAML team that is going to the Windows team “will continue their work on Windows 8 as planned and will join our Developer Experience (DEVX) team. This transition allows us to bring together our platform development team in a single-management structure.”

That seems to be good news for devs not comfy with Microsoft’s seeming HTML5/JavaScript force-feed. It sounds as though even if .NET, per se, fades, developers should still be able to code with C#/XAML. (In other words, .NET lives under a new name.)

The team working on XAML for Windows Phone, Xbox and “browser plug-in” are now part of the Windows Phone team, which is not in Windows. So XAML (and Silverlight) are still alive in the phone/gaming space. Microsoft officials said last year that Silverlight would continue to be a platform promoted by Microsoft for streaming media. I am assuming this is where/how that mission will go forward.

Kevin Gallo, just a month ago, was referred to in a Microsoft Server and Tools reorg memo as the guy heading up the “Client Platform Team” in the Developer Division, following Scott Guthrie’s transition to the Windows Azure team. His Linkedin Profile lists him as the “General Manager of Silverlight.”  So that means the Silverlight team seems to no longer be in the Developer Division. Does Gallo still have a job at Microsoft? Not clear, but I’m thinking he now works in Windows client (?).

Update: One of my readers says that Gallo was moved to the Windows Phone development team, given that’s where the Silverlight plug-in is going

So there you have it. What “it” is, I’m not entirely sure. All I can say, yet again, is Microsoft is doing itself more disservice than service by refusing to offer Silverlight and WPF developers even the most bare-bones official reassurance that there are plans to continue to support these technologies in Windows 8. The silence (and promises that all will be revealed at September at the Build conference) is creating a lot of unnecessary fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD).

I tried  to contact the powers-that-be in Microsoft’s Developer Division this week for clarification on the Silverlight/Jupiter/Windows 8 development situation and received no comment (beyond being sent a link to the upcoming Build conference).

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: Microsoft splits up its XAML team: What's the fallout?
makrekwe78-24353639853672037959604418643908 Updated - 10th Nov
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0 Votes
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basically, if xaml is moving into the windows team (specifically devx), that means xaml will be an important part of windows in the future... that can only mean xaml support in the new windows 8 jupiter framework.

silverlight is a subset of wpf, so where full wpf is available, silverlight is not needed (besides, they are basically the same thing as far as markup/libraries are concerned)

as a .net developer, I am totally reassured that the new windows 8 touch stack will use .net/wpf.

there is no disservice being done, except for you being sensationalist.
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Contributr
Glad you are reassured!
Mary Jo Foley 23rd Jun
Glad you are seeing the glass half full here. And maybe it is. I am talking to a lot of devs whose bosses now see the glass as half empty, and who are killing/postponing SL projects because they believe MS is no longer committed to .Net/WPF/SL. I hope you are right. MJ
@Mary Jo Foley

but thats the thing I dont get with your article, from where I stand, the glass is full and almost overflowing with all the cool **** that microsoft is doing as far as new sorts of software I can develop (pen / touch / kinect for xbox / tv / tablet / smartphone / pc / laptop / web / surface) - and its all .net

.net will be way more important in windows 8 than it ever has been. If anything, I feel sorry for the devs not using .net
@Mary Jo Foley People love to be scared, and they love to be sad. Any newspaper editor knows that. Those bosses who see the glass half empty are the same kind of people who would complain about having to pay higher taxes if they won the lottery, and based on my extensive experience of life wink this is the case for 98.6% of people out there (these numbers must be true, because I just made them up).

Microsoft could solve this with just a couple of nice words, but they chose not to do that. Why it seems a good idea to them is beyond me. It is unfortunately a sign that WinDiv is running the show regarding Build, and that they have no idea on how to make developers happy. However, seeing how Build is almost sold out, it seems to be working. Trying to make sense of all this is like peeing in the proverbial violin (http://www.jamieoliver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=38059).

I for one am very excited about Win8, and really happy I will be at Build to be part of all that. 2012 is going to be a blast, with Win8, Jupiter, Mango, XAML/C#/Blend, Kinect and more. I cannot wait. Guess that makes my glass 3/4 full wink

Cheers,
Laurent
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Devs rule no matter what
A Gray 24th Jun
@Mary Jo Foley Simply put, devs will keep alive what they like. When Microsoft moved from VB and MFC to .Net, it was a clear winner. A majority of devs could see the advantage and moved their quickly. Subsets like ASP.Net, MVC, WPF and SL have their camps, but the force is strong in them. I don't see them abandoning .Net for years to come. The only way that would happen is if Linux or Mac became the next office standard OS.

I personally like Html/Javascript for web because its so light and new tech makes it more powerful. But for those who want that "app" experience, SL/WPF will still be around.
MJ & everyone reading this blog post may wan't to read this should read this Ars tech posted yesterday. http://arst.ch/q0f by "Peter Bright". A must read for everyone following this SL/XAML/WPF stuff/FUD.

Seems .NET is getting deep into the Win 8 OS with this WinRT, as I posted below in my comments yesterday.
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Common sense...
tick tock 23rd Jun
What are you trying to do here? Bring common sense to the "All About Microsoft" blog? This is a place where code-names and gossip and speculation rule. You know, if you become a master of code-names, you automatically become a genius wih the underlying technology.

Clearly, this blog cares more about Microsoft developers than Microsoft itself - while Microsoft is trying to screw them over, this blog is trying to stand up for them. (end sarcasm).
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Microsoft screwing who?
A Gray 24th Jun
@tick tock Code a few enterprise apps in Cocoa and Objective-C then talk about screwing developers. That language is stuck in 1999 and will be for decades to come. The "magic" of the Mac takes a LOT of effort. Microsoft has done a great deal to make developing for Windows interesting and fast. I wish Objective-C were like coding in Silverlight, that would certainly make my life easier.

Seriously, no memory management on the phone? No dot-notation methods? Reflection is cumbersome at best. And if you drop down into C-land its a dev nightmare. Where is the watch/replace/immediate windows of XCode?
@AGray - I couldn't agree with you more.

Every time I have to code something in Objective-C for iOS/OSX, I throw up a little.

Coding for iOS and OSX is like stepping back to writing code in 1990. There's a reason that nobody (other than Apple) uses Obejctive-C and why, until Apple unlocked the marketplace, almost nobody wrote apps for Apple's platform.

As for XCode? It's an absolute joke.

Wherever possible, I prefer to write iOS/OSX code in C# atop Mono/MonoTouch. ANYTHING is better than Apple's dev platform.
@kidsilver just cause the OS supports XAML/WPF doesn't mean the user browser will support the silverllight plugin. A lot of people are building pieces of their website (EG WebParts or iWidgets) with silverlight to offer RIAs with very small dev time & great performance that HTML5 just can't match, filling in the hole that Java Applets never could hit and Flash has been OK at working with. Now it's possible that space will be completely missing. that's what developers fear, rich features in thin apps delivered over HTTP, not thick client applications hosted by the OS.
@drdamour Sinofsky said explicitly that IE10 will support Silverlight.
@drdamour

as lbugnion says, IE10 will support Silverlight, and not just that... but ActiveX, so Flash and Java as well, as well as the new HTML5 stuff, and HTML4 stuff as well, so... honestly, imo that is about as good as it can get for a developer.
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Message has been deleted.
Richard Flude Updated - 24th Jun
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@Richard Flude MS Dev tools is extremely focused and has evolved into something really awesome. There is no deviation from the path - the interpretation of the email in this article is terrible!
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@Richard Flude I'm with you, Richard. MS Dev tools have tried to be all things to all people, without enough care and attention to provide adequate integration. All the talk of HTML5 takes away from WPF.

EDIT: Richard, your message has since been deleted. There was NO reason for your message to be deleted. There was nothing in it that would violate any AUP. This is occurring more and more at ZDNet and severely detracts from the product. What are you thinking ZDNet?
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Message has been deleted.
woulddie4apple Updated - 24th Jun
  • Flagged
@woulddie4apple, you're missing my point. Richard said nothing to warrant having is message deleted. ZDNet is doing a disservice to us, and themselves, by arbitrarily deleting messages. Just because a message is flagged, doesn't mean it should be deleted.

To find humor in it is equally repulsive.
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@Info-Dave
Like I said, Richard has made quite a reputation for himself by being one of the biggest trolls here.

And yes, I find it very humorous that his message was deleted and even better that it pissed him off so much. YEAH!!! happy
  • Flagged
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Deleted?
Richard Flude 24th Jun
This is getting crazy. The company I lead is a MS partner and paid up subscriber yet it appears no criticism of MS position is allowed, even the obvious.Enjoy the ignorance.
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HAHA!!
woulddie4apple 24th Jun
@Richard Flude
happy
  • Flagged
I've decided to let the fools talk about "fades" and "deads", this is simply a matter of evolution, and people who have really worked with the Microsoft technology understands that this is about developers beneffits, xaml and .net is not going anywhere, is evolving, no need for fud or fear
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In agreement with MJ on this. The messaging from Microsoft dramatically changed perception of Silverlight/WPF/XAML, and perception is reality.
@stonstad - no. Perception is reality in the absence of facts. Once the facts become available (at Build in Sept), we'll be able to have a sensible discussion. Until then, this is all just speculation.
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if you really thing MS is going to drop support Xaml/Wpf/Silverlight...your insane. Period. this company was founded on the premise of never leaving customers / devs behind.
It can happen the other way as the first comment (@kidsilver) says, the other 50% can also happen.

Change is always welcome. But, I agree with your point that, they can tell this is coming, instead of postponing this. Always, when there's a silence from Tech co's, either it'll be due to the doubt how the Dev community will take it or they wna't to maintain the secrecy. I doubt MS can/might do it for secrecy, as I dont' see any big thing might happen in BUILD to change the whole picture of MS dev community and making everyone feel good as if there's something like .NET was released 10yrs back. This is if we go with the pessimistic thought process of this silence.

If we go with optimistic way, who knows, MS might rewrite topic in BUILD, by saying, now .NET is part of Win 8 kernel....!

I feel the second is going to happen, as I'm always optimistic, as always MS tried to impress Devs. By bet is, telling the community that SL is going to go way, made a big uproar. MS will never have or would do any such thing like saying .NET is going to go away. That'll be the end of MS with the whole Dev community and Enterprise Customers, as no one will be trusting MS anymore. So, I dont' think that's going to happen.

I feel .NET will get more inroads into Win 8 core, and thats the reason probably they wanted to move XAML / WPF based XAML team to move to core Win 8 team, as UI is what made Windows so successful !
If your girl doesn't return your calls for a month, never sends you a text and then posts her Facebook status as single ... It's time to move on!

MS have acted in a manner consistent with sending their spouse a break up message. It's pretty obvious that the Silverlight/wpf/blend project is being relegated to a special use case. It's not the preferred option and I doubt it will be promoted in the same way that developers were discouraged from vb.net etc..

For me, all the silence is a classic PR move. They obviousky miscalculated the backlash and are hastily putting something together for september to soften the blow. They can't talk about it because they don't know what it is themselves!

From a dev point of view, using a "subset" of the silverlight framework to make native apps doesn't appeal to me too much. I won't be able to port over my existing stuff and no doubt the whole framework will be another 3 year learning headache.

The only silver lining I can think of is that at least for the first time in 10 yrs, MS will be eating it's own dog food! If the win dev team has developed their own environment to develop their apps, they will have sorted out all the performance problems unlike with wpf/SL. For example, at what point did it occur to the wpf/SL team that real business clients would not appreciate fuzzy looking text?? What like 3 yrs after shipping?? That's a team that doesn't use its own tools for anything other than demo work..

In summary. WinDev is calling the shots. Dev Tools is being handed a bone and is allowed to make something compatible with the new world order. SL/WPF/Blend framework is legacy / in support mode. In the real world, most businesses are on windows xp and ie6 so none of this matters for 5 years. As you were...
@ofoedu@... Contrary to your assertions, I don't think ANYTHING is obvious yet.

To my mind, Silverlight moving to the Windows team means that it may, in fact, become MORE prominent on the Windows platform compared to its current status as an optional add-on built by a non-core-OS team. If the core OS team have decided to build Windows' UI platform atop or incorporating Silverlight, then it's got a great future.

But, again, this is all wild speculation at this point. Let MS work through the details and get the story straight for Build. Then we'll know what's REALLY going on.
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RE: Microsoft splits up its XAML team: What's the fallout?
ZDNET SLACKER BLOGGERS Updated - 24th Jun
Wow, i am getting tired of reading this same **** everywhere...
Something called "XAML Team" has never existed. XAML is an XML based object tree descriptor language, that CAN be used for building up object instance hierarchy in a declarative way. ANY CLR class library can be used with this XAML is not even indispensable for using XAML-related technologies. (Fe: I created a data transformation toolkit, which was able to be used with xaml or with regular c# code nicely)

There are some technologies, which are related to XAML (WPF, Silverlight, Workflow), but they all had had their own team since forever. Just try to google "xaml team", you will not find anything but this and similar ******** articles. Just read the e-mail, it doesn't even mention a "xaml team".

One thing that i am getting sure, is that WPF is moving to the Windows team and surely will be replaced with a very similar native library.
@General T
I think you've hit the nail on the head in that XAML is separate to WPF/SL etc.. XAML has been around for a while. Its just an XAMl based UI markup language, Adobe Flex uses a similar xml based markup.

In fact, if your using a designer (e.g. Blend) you probably dont need to see much xaml at all. The problem for me is the SL/WPF programming framework is more than just XAML markup. The StoryBoard, ViewState, Triggers, BackgroundWorker etc.. RIA services ... are all pretty high level concepts that I'm not sure will be included in this next Jupiter framework. Especially if its being driven by the Windows team.

It just seems like the whole thing is a step back for high level languages and that there will be another 2/3 yr learning cycle to do the same things your doing now, but in Jupiter. I dont see how its a win for anyone entrenched in .NET land. Maybe its a compromise, or a reprieve (a stay of execution?) but not really a win.
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@ofoedu@
XAML is not even a UI markup language. It's a generic markup language for instantiation. For example look at WinWorkflow, it is also XAML-related, and does nothing with UI. Another example: I have created a data transformation toolkit, where the tranformation can be defined with XAML (or with regular CLI code).
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Contributr
XAML Team
Mary Jo Foley 24th Jun
Hi. If you read Julie Larson-Green's memo on this (here: http://www.riagenic.com/archives/683), she cc's the "XAML Team."

MJ
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This e-mail GROUP probably reference to team*S* working on XAML-releated technologies.
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@Mary Jo Foley
This e-mail GROUP probably reference to the teams (plural!) working on XAML-related technologies. Btw the article tells about xaml teams (also in plural).
Seems to me MS is WIDENING it's use of XAML, spreading the goodness to new parts of the organisation, XAML will now be a CORE Windows component. This may be very good news for WPF/SL developers. You are no longer a side show, you're the main show.
@JeffMcClintock

in complete agreement with this. just like xaml/silverlight is the king of wp7. and on xbox in the future. and probably surface
Was he being shunted aside with the move to Azure? Seems so. What does that say about Azure? Has it become a home for unwanted devs and managers?

It seems like the Windows core at MS is cleaning house. There very own night of the long knives.
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All I want is...
General C# 24th Jun
MVVM templates to be built into VS2012, and all WPF/Silverlight controls need command binding. It's a real mission creating an MVVM project right now with half-baked tools.

To the real .NET developers, we know what we know and we're loving our dev environment right now. To the rest, including MJ... LMFAO @ your ignorance!
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Microsoft has a problem
Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate 24th Jun
They need to get their 'mojo' going on development methods, keep 3rd-party Developers interested at the same time, and keep pace with what the rest of 'the world' is doing.

Coming up with yet another proprietary protocol XAML will not help their cause.

Word on the street is Developers are stepping away from proprietary and seeking out work on open source/open protocol based projects.

Operating system agnostic methods of writing Apps is today's world.

Agile programming is fueling accelerated software release schedules.

When will Microsoft catch on and will they ever catch up?

Instead, their is an internal crisis and conflict of interests--which will continue to create resistance on the movement forward to reach key milestones.

Agile Microsoft. Agile.
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@Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate

Where can I download the source code of your BS generator. I hope it is licensed under the GPL and based on open standards.
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No substance.
Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate 24th Jun
@General T

Nothing constructive to say. Just ad homs.
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Seriously!?
General C# 24th Jun
@Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate
When was the last time you actually developed something, if ever? All of your statements makes no sense and shows a great deal of ignorance.

XAML is neither proprietary, nor a protocol. As a developer, I know many developers and in fact more and more are moving towards Microsoft, because of the integrated technologies.

Silverlight is OS agnostic!

Agile programming - how does this fit in to your argument for open source?

Linux advocates walk in the dark and live in ignorance.
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XAML maps to .NET, you know that right or perhaps you are ignorant?
Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate 24th Jun
@General C#
And exactly what is .NET good for? Nothing but Windows application development.

And no one is going to touch Mono at this point with a barge pole for Linux development my Friend.

Now, make an attempt to write something constructive instead of ad homs.
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@Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate
"Word on the street is open source... really? Interesting, but well, wrong. So many directions these days, but Apple's appstore offers 400,000 apps - written in Objective C++ primarily.
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If you are an Apple Developer
Dietrich T. Schmitz, *~* Your Linux Advocate 24th Jun
@philja123
Then of course you realize your programming language choices are limited--by Apple.

Why? Control.
Objective C is NOT C++.
And Objective C++ sounds good but it is nothing more than a front-end to GNU/Linux C++ compiler g++.

Questions?
Thanks.
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.NET
thensley@... 24th Jun
.NET != (WPF | Silverlight | WinForms | XAML)
Mary Jo, I find it appaling that a respectable journalists like yourself would so eagerly jump on an opportunity to distribute information that was passed in confidence. What happened to the values of integrity, discretion and honor, people? Should we allow our desire of 5 minutes of fame take over our better judgement?
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more thoroughly into the core of windows & windows phone. Looks like .Net is being rooted into the very fabric of all windows platforms. I don't think it is going anywhere. It is changing and evolving.
I've been following this issue with keen interest since the beginning because I am a MS platform developer and have been since before Windows 1.x. Their success contributes to my success and vice versa. Their current self-inflicted problems become my problems. Recently, I tried proposing to my boss that an upcoming project be done in Silverlight. He dismissed it disparagingly based on reporting in the press that is directly based on MS messaging. Silverlight would have been a perfect fit for the project. Now, it's going to be done in some hacked together way with some .NET components on the back end and some crappy HTML/Javascript/ASP.NET WebForms mishmash on the front end. WCF will be used, but it won't be used to its potential because of the limitation imposed by the crappy front end technology. EF may not be used because of all the uncertainty around other MS technologies. This is ridiculous. MS has, bar none, the best software development technology on the planet. And they're killing its acceptance in the marketplace because of internal political infighting. Here's a clue, you MS management bozos, most of the world hates Microsoft. The colored crayon Apple crowd hates you because you're not as "cool" as they perceive Steve Jobs to be. The Linux geeks hate you because you're not "open". Of course, the voluminous torrent of free support you provide to your development community doesn't count. Nor do the great tools like VS2010. Whatever. Corporations hate you because you charge them money for using your products. The nerve! You should give them away, I suppose, like city governments give giant gazillion dollar sports facilities to private owned sports franchises. Again, whatever. No, Microsoft, you've been pretty much friendless since the glow from Windows 95 wore off. Well, almost. You've always had one group of tireless, long suffering supporters that have made sure your products are a success - your platform developers. And now you're doing your utmost to drive us away. Without us, you will fail. All those MS hating web hackers out there couldn't care less that you're embracing HTML and Javascript. They'll continue on as before using the LAMP stack. At the rate you're going, Windows 8 is going to make Vista look like a colossal success.
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RE: Microsoft splits up its XAML team: What's the fallout?
makrekwe78-24353639853672037959604418643908 Updated - 10th Nov
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