Microsoft to defend its IE policies in closed-door antitrust hearing

By | May 4, 2009, 11:15am PDT

Summary: The antitrust case involving Microsoft’s browser-bundling policies is continuing to wind its way through the European courts — with a closed-door hearing on the matter now slated for early June.

The antitrust case involving Microsoft’s browser-bundling policies is continuing to wind its way through the European courts — with a closed-door hearing on the matter now slated for early June.

Microsoft officials are slated to present orally between June 3 and June 5 the arguments the company submitted in written form on April 28 to the European Commission (EC) regarding Opera Software’s complaint filed in December 2007 over Microsoft’s browser-bundling policies.

Here’s a quick recap of what’s going on.

Opera’s antitrust complaint had two parts: Opera charged that Microsoft’s policy of bundling IE with Windows hurt consumer choice. It also argued that Microsoft’s failure to comply with Web standards with IE resulted in a lack of browser interoperability.

The EC released its preliminary findings, charging Microsoft with abusing its dominant monopoly position, earlier this year. So far, the EC has not said what kinds of financial or other remedial actions it intends to require if it rules in Opera’s favor. As part of a previous antitrust case in the EU, via which Microsoft was found guilty of abusing its Windows monopoly, Microsoft was required to offer versions of Windows with Media Player removed and to pay billions of dollars in fines.

Since Opera filed its complaint, Mozilla, Google and members of the European Committee for Interoperable Systems have joined in to help back Opera’s case. Microsoft, for its part, added a new “remove Internet Explorer” option to the latest build of Windows 7 — a move that many industry watchers see as an attempt to blunt the potential impact of any kind of antitrust-related ruling.

Opera execs said last year that Opera is in favor of seeing Microsoft be required to distribute its competitors’ browsers via its Automatic Update mechanism and/or to bundle its compeitors’ browsers with Windows.

Microsoft currently has close to 68 percent of the worldwide browser marketshare, according to Net Applications. Microsoft’s biggest competitor for IE 8 is older versions of IE, rather than Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera or any other third-party browser.

What’s your guess as to what’s going to happen next in this case?  As I’ve said before, I think there is a case to be made that Microsoft’s browser-bundling policies have hurt competition. But I think it’s harder to prove Microsoft’s policies have hurt consumers.

Microsoft’s failure to keep IE up-to-date and release newer/better/faster versions in a timely manner has resulted in it losing a hefty chunk of marketshare in recent years. Would the market continue to “right” itself even if the courts don’t intervene? Perhaps….. I think the EC is going to intervene, however, given its past track record, and the result is not likely to be to Microsoft’s liking. What do you think?

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

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Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

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RE: Microsoft to defend its IE policies in closed-door antitrust hearing
homeioy19-24353590098412946075400837007254 11th Nov
enyfcy,good post!
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Hurting consumers.
Henrik Moller 4th May 2009
"But I think it?s harder to prove Microsoft?s policies have hurt consumers."

No, it's not difficult at all. Microsoft's persistent refusal to adhere to W3C standards has made many web sites utterly or partially unusable for non-IE users. alltel.com, for example. With Firefox, I can barely access the site to pay bills--the user id and password boxes are partially obscured--and trying to use some features only results in a pop-up telling me I need to download the latest version of IE. Not just the latest version of whatever browser I'm using, specifically the latest version of IE. That, of course, is pointless--I have no Windows machines. Multiply my experience by that of millions of other Linux and Apple users who can't use IE and it's obvious that Microsoft's Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish tactics have hurt a lot of consumers.
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Is that IE's fault?
jk_10 4th May 2009
Websites that works only for IE, it is IE's fault. is that what you are saying? what kind of logic is that? My website, as a matter of fact, works with IE only, you can only see error message if you are using Unix, or what ever. I don't do business with you if you don't have IE, it is that simple. who are you to blame? me or Microsoft?
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Logic?
Economister 4th May 2009
Forcing people to use IE forces them to use Windows, which is precisely what MS has been trying to do (and succeeding to a significant degree). When you are a convicted monopolist, that is a no-no. Re-check YOUR logic.
with the monopoly OS. If it were not universally available because if illegally leveraging the monopoly, people would NOT create IE only websites.
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what should i say?
jk_10 4th May 2009
if i say anything that would be for kindergardners. just save it.
monopoly product disadvantages competitors. If IE were so great, no need for MS to bundle, everybody would download it anyway.
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Exactly...
eMJayy 4th May 2009
And based on the market share stats for IE8 so far, only 4% of IE users even take an interest in updating their browser. That lack of zeal for something so 'popular' is quite telling.
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for the record
DonBurnett 4th May 2009
I was a web developer for a major company that started on netscape back in 98 and we moved to IE (when you still had to chose to download it) when IE 4 thru IE 6) gained superior numbers.

That happened not because of Microsoft's tactics, it was a superior browser to netscape back in the day.. HTML wasn't standardized there was no industry group governing HTML and Netscape honestly lacked the true media support and a plug-in architecture (that while was insecure) didn't require a separate download or leaving the site to install it at the time..

Why would MS put them in legal peril over something that gives them, well, as you say, zero advantage. What do they know they you don't?????
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Message has been deleted.
DonnieBoy Updated - 6th May 2009
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What you say makes no sense
daengbo 5th May 2009
IE4 through IE6 were bundled as part of Win98 and later. In fact, IE3 was bundled in Win95 OSR2. How can you possibly say "we moved to IE (when you still had to chose to download it) when IE 4 thru IE 6) gained superior numbers?" You didn't have to download it. You didn't have to choose anything.

IE5 was almost certainly better than Netscape 4, but that didn't matter because virtually every new computer user in the late 90s and early 2000s was introduced to the Internet via IE -- this is so true that many don't even understand the difference between IE --a browser -- and the Internet.

As further evidence of the effect of bundling, look at a graph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Layout_engine_usage_share.svg
Even though the CSV values clearly show yearly data, you can see the slope of the IE/Netscape line change drastically in the year following a major release which had IE bundled (95OSR2, 98, 2000, XP).

Daeng
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"mea culpa" would work
Jack-Booted EULA 5th May 2009
and swapping "MS" for "mea" wouldn't be much of a stretch.

:o)
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In other words...
hasta la Vista, bah-bie 5th May 2009
..you have nothing TO say...

Leave your ActiveX to yourself, thank you very much...
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Less than 70% HARDLY makes a monopoly...
Marty R. Milette 5th May 2009
Get with the program and quit whining...

But, in any case, why does MS insist on risking hundreds of millions in fines if they have the best product and bundling does not help them.
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You for "excluding" people who may want to do business (and make you oodles of money) by making a website that only works with IE.

Microsoft for their lame/illegal tying and pathetic breaking/ignoring of web standards.

Just try excluding anyone in any other area of commerce and you'll be sued faster than ACLU can say "Avast!" or whatever they say. Why should you (and Microsoft) be able to get away with that?
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No Shirt, No Shoes,
Erroneous 11th May 2009
No Service.

Seen that plenty of times. Sounds exclusionary to me.
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ha!
DonBurnett 4th May 2009
Let me get this straight, you think it's Microsoft's fault that the web developer alltell.com paid to do their site didn't follow good rules for HTML development and it's not AllTell.com's fault for requiring him to enforce those HTML standards.. I find it hard to believe. I have used firefox, and honestly blaming Microsoft for a job done by some web developer who's probably in some 3rd world country getting paid thru outsourcing $3 per hour if that to do a web site on-going for them is Microsoft's fault..

Maybe the majority of their customers use IE because they want to and maybe their numbers are bigger than firefox because they ARE or at least were the real standard, not FIREFOX??

People started using IE 6 back in the day for a reason and it was because it was more feature rich and HTML wasn't regulated by an industry group back then..

Hurting, it's you guys that are hurting folks with revisionist history..
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Back in the IE6 day..
hasta la Vista, bah-bie 5th May 2009
...you had no competition with IE except Netscape, and we all know what M$ did to them...
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Microsoft has leveraged their monopoly power in the operating system arena to gain a level of dominance in the browser area which would have been impossible otherwise.

Yes, companies not insisting on standards compliance is a problem, but nonetheless, Microsoft's intentional and persistent non-compliance with standards is a serious problem, for which they deserve sanctions.

Just personally, were I in a anti-trust judge, I would forbid Microsoft from including any browser or media player functionality in the basic distribution of Windows. Further I would forbid Microsoft from offering any incentive to OEMs to encourage them to include any other Microsoft products in their standard install. Finally, I would require OEMs to make Windows an extra cost option. No more Microsoft tax on PCs.

"Microsoft delenda est!"
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Is there a law?
rapson 4th May 2009
Does the EU have any law or regulation that states that web browsers have to adhere to W3C standards? If not, how can Microsoft be charged with its browser not following those standards? If so, doesn't that mean the EU and not the W3C is actually determining web standards?

I agree that a case can be made that bundling IE with Windows has harmed consumers, but I don't see how the EU has any standing to attempt to enforce W3C standards, unless it does indeed have a regulation requiring W3C comformance.

Carl Rapson
competing browsers. That combined with bundling with the monopoly OS is the problem.
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Missing the Point
Economister 4th May 2009
MS uses non-compliance and its dominant position to make web-sites work better with IE. That is anti-competitive conduct from a convicted monopolist. That is very similar to how they made MS Office work better with Windows.

The Leopard still has spots.
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Missing another point
Samic 4th May 2009
MS didn't make the website works better with IE; it was websites make themselves better with IE. Why don't blame the developer?

If consumers are so compliant-aware, they could... I don't know... download the dang Opera or Firefox? Case in point, I do see more and more people downloading Firefox, but how come Opera hardly gaining any browser shares all these years?

MS has no obligation to make Office works better with other platform. (if they ever make that decision at all) By the same token, Apple also has no obligation to make iTunes or Quicktime works better with Windows, that probably is the reason why iTunes/Quicktime is so awfully slow to run on Windows, BTW.
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With W3C standards, although they come into it.

The argument against them is (in a nutshell) that Microsoft by its bundling and exclusionary actions have hurt and continue to hurt the market, particularly in terms of interoperability, and access, and competition.
I didn't know that and here I was thinking I heard somewhere that FF was doing quite well and Chrome, which is being advertised illegally is doing ok too, along with Safari which is being pushed on people illegally, where is the Justice on that?

AS for windows enabled websites, well i think we all know that you are talking about the public internet, the one you don't want any government controlling it and leave it to it's organic self, yet you point your finger at MS because many companies have used their tools to build their websites? HUH???

Businesses or people can build their websites any way they wish, as long as they don't expose children to severe violence and pornography on their main pages like Google's YouTube.

They can cook up the most proprietary site they want and it's really none of your business.

Unless you are saying that the Web should be left alone, but only after everyone is FORCED to use Standards that YOU back and not standards that 90% of the people back. uh huh, okie dokie.

That is the most hypocritical thing that has ever been said in the history of mankind. Thanks for that.

  • Flagged
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Go away psycho
zkiwi 6th May 2009
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Freedom vs. Forced standards
tmsbrdrs 7th May 2009
You say Chrome is advertised illegally. While I don't particularly like how it's being advertised, there's nothing illegal about it.

Google coded Chrome, Google owns Youtube and every other site it's been advertised on, those sites advertise Chrome.

Using MS tools to build websites wouldn't be a big deal except that those tools cause many consumers not to be able to view the sites. Since IE is only available for Windows, that means people have no choice but to use it if they want certain sites to render properly. That's the problem with not following W3C standards.

Sure, businesses can make proprietary sites all they want. However, if that business refuses to do business with me because I use a different OS, it's similar to refusing to do business with me based on the color of my skin or based on my gender or sexual orientation. In short, it's the cyber equivalent of separate but equal.

No, the web shouldn't be left alone to fester, it should be nurtured to make it grow. Enforcing standards is like weeding a garden.

Since civilization started with agriculture, web civilization should too. It's about time IE was either choked out or changed to something good for us all.
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The web has been doing quite fine...
Marty R. Milette 12th May 2009
...without medalling do-gooders trying to enforce THEIR ways on everyone else.

Microsoft has the RIGHT to build their browsers any way they want. People can either choose to use them or not.

It's called FREEDOM.

Considering how slowly these so-called 'standards' change -- you may as well try to force everyone to drive with a horse and buggy.

Microsoft has the right to INNOVATE and make their browser as FULLY FUNCTIONAL as they want.

Web developers have teh RIGHT to develop their web sites to take ADVANTAGE of these enhancements or not.

What stick is up your butt that you think FREEDOM is a bad thing? If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be living in the stone age.
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I have, and it is d*m near impossible, other than as a kit.

Why should virtually every PC OEM require me to buy Windows? Because they are obligated to by contracts entered into with convicted monopolist Microsoft.

Having a monopoly is not necessarily illegal. Using that monopoly to insure its continuance is!

"Microsoft delenda est!"
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Who are YOU to judge?
Marty R. Milette 13th May 2009
If it wasn't profitable for PC vendors to include Windows with their machines -- they wouldn't be doing it.

Fact is they make MORE MONEY by doing so -- it is THEIR CHOICE. Your choice is to vote with your feet and buy whatever else you prefer. If enough people cared to do the same -- the vendors WOULD change what they do.

Several firms have TRIED to sell PCs without an O/S -- and it ended up in nothing but a bunch of PCs with pirated OS/s on them and a support disaster.

Several firms have TRIED to sell PCs with Linux on them. The experiment FAILED MISERABLY because:

1. Joe Average doesn't WANT Linux -- they want what they know and are happy with. They want what they have at the office -- and that is Windows. (They also want INTEROPERABILITY so they can move their data to/from the office. They want to use the same APPLICATIONS as at work.)

2. No matter which 'distro' of Linux the vendors put on -- 90% of these so-called 'educated' buyers weren't happy with what they were given and ended up removing it anyway and replacing it with one of the other 400 'popular' distros. The result: A bloody support NIGHTMARE for the vendor who now has to try and get drivers and configuration settings that actually work for all those different distros. Compare that with ONE STANDARD, easy-to-support, tested and proven Windows distribution. Who needs the hassles of Linux?

3. Even out of the few Joe Average people who tried Linux -- most of them returned their machine and demanded their money back, or demanded to have Windows put on.

Again -- if it was PROFITABLE, vendors would do it -- but since it is NOT, then who are you to judge them or try to tell them how to run their business? (There is still something called freedom and capitalism in America -- no?)
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Standards, generally
Too Old For IT 11th May 2009
I've long held that when it came to standards, various bodies would come together, figure out how Microsoft did it, assume there was another way, and make the "other way" the International Holy Grail Standard.
Microsoft is going to win this case. There was
absolutely no harm done to any consumers by bundling
IE. In fact it helped consumers out by not making them
download the browser. You can consider this as
Microsoft doing you a favor. From that point users
were always free to go to the internet to download
their favorite web browser. Opera has absolutely no
case here, nor does the EC. Come on, there is nothing
that states a web browser has to follow standards.
They are just guidelines, nothing more. If this was truly an issue then we'd see Opera trying to go after
lynx. Opera just ensured that I would never use their
browser.
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Every other "pronouncement from upon high/low/wherever" that you have made on how Microsoft will be victorious in court against the EC has ended up being proven wrong.

Me, I'm waiting to see what the fines and rulings will be that the EC might impose. That seems the more likely outcome.

Mind you, if you make a zillion pronouncements about Microsoft's victory on a zillion items, maybe one might just come through for you.
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Microsoft will be victorious
Loverock Davidson 4th May 2009
You see, previously the EC was being paid off by
the big companies. Well those other companies can
only afford to shovel out money for so long before
it hurts their bottom line. This is where
Microsoft will take advantage and prove there was
no harm done and that they were in fact helping
the users. I haven't heard one person yet say
they were harmed by having IE installed. There
really is no case here.
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I was hurt by having IE installed
tmsbrdrs 7th May 2009
Every time I clicked on a link and IE opened instead of Firefox, every time I needed to run a webpage in IE because it was made for IE only, every time IE would reset itself as the default browser (happened three times) and every time IE was updated even though I didn't use it, I was hurt in the very least by the amount of time wasted by having IE.

I was even hurt by IE exploits even though I never used it. Just by having the thing on your system, viruses and other malware have a built in exploit guaranteed to be tied to the core of the system which cannot be removed and is not being remedied any time soon.

So, since you'd never heard someone say it, now you have and I can guarantee I'm not alone.
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Do you not understand...
Marty R. Milette 8th May 2009
...how to configure a 'default browser'?

This is not difficult. Google it if you must.
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Are you talking about the 2001 OS?
xuniL_z 8th May 2009
The current OS runs IE in protected mode which means nothing has access to your system.

Get on with your life.

Run Linux and use FF. You are allowed to do that.


If there are places you can't go, then so be it. There are places other handicapped people can't go and the government isn't going to make every small business install access for them anytime soon. It's just life dude, don't cry about it.
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By creating a monoculture in the internet, Microsoft has made the criminal botnet underground possible, or at least a lot easier to create.

"Microsoft delenda est!"
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Product Description...
randomnoise 5th May 2009
"Come on, there is nothing that states a web browser has to follow
standards."


You are correct - however if it doesn't conform to standards, can it be
called a web browser?
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EU antitrust law is all about "ensuring a level playing field for COMPETITORS".

How do I know this? A European poster some time ago was kind enough to provide links to the EU antitrust law website.

The EU doesn't care about any possible harm to the average user (the crux of Opera's complaint), they only care about businesses remaining in business. My guess is that's so they can get more tax money.
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Not a single one I can think of, but of course the scum in the EC want to put MS at a disadvantage. (They would also love to screw Intel if they can.) I say shut down EU access to MS web sites for a couple weeks and let the angry users beat the snot out of the EC members.
MS is the ONLY one that made so you can not remove the browser!! If it was so great, it would stand on its own.
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Actually, no, it isn't
Lerianis 4th May 2009
You cannot totally remove Safari from OSX. Linux.... yeah, you can remove the browser totally, but almost NO ONE I know of uses Linux, so it's a 'moot point'.

They need to realize that while Microsoft IS a defacto monopoly, if other companies are doing the SAME THINGS as Microsoft (i.e. bundling their own browser, removable or not).... Microsoft isn't doing anything wrong.

The geas should be on the CUSTOMER to look for a better internet browser, mail downloader, etc..... not on Microsoft to include every one under the sun.
Bloat, anyone?
So, why put themselves in legal peril and risk hundreds of millions in fines for something that gives them NO advantage. Either MS was lying in court or they are extremely STUPID???!!!

But, in any case, your reasoning is flawed. Antitrust laws ONLY apply to monopolies. The fact that companies without monopolies can do it does NOT give a company with a monopoly a right to do it.
MS did what was asked of them, created a version W/O Media Player and what happened?
Nobody bought that version. The numbers were so small it's fair to say nobody.

BUT, the greedy and corrupt EU with it's monopoly on LAW with NO public oversight or public elections of the lawmakers took BILLIONS in fines from the MS on that one.

When the version with no media player sank like a LEAD BALLOON, the EU still had their BILLIONS from the American company they are so jealous of.


It's their only revenue stream. The EU is 30 years behind the U.S. in production.

The people of the EU sleep longer than any ohter people on Earth and eat more. That's why the American Stereotype is SO funny. In England, France, Italy, you name it, they work less, produce less Sleep more, eat more and are busting the scales.


They are so arrogant even that they blame on the U.S. The rely on the U.S. for their IT infrastructure, they wait until it's in place so they can use it to their advantage, then they start fining American companies.

Anyone that doesn't see this is simply economic warfare from the losers that were left behind is totally blind.
a dependency on it, and there were tons of files out there that required media player, thus, OEMs needed to keep installing it.

I doubt the EU will make the same mistake with the brrowser.
You have one excuse after another, don't you.

Blame it on MS...couldn't be that the EU waited too long to act could it?
They didn't take that on until they knew they could get maximum $$$ out of MS. You are so naive Donnieboy.

And now you say the funniest thing in the world, they WON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE with the browser!!
What????????????
It's been bundled since the 90s dude. I know you are just somebody playing a dumb troll, but c'mon, give it some reality.

It's so funny to watch you change position and contradict yourself time and time again and you don't even realize it.
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Just sitting toght
Too Old For IT 11th May 2009
... to see what happens with the first browserless or IE disabled copy of Windows tries to attach to the web for updates.
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Message has been deleted.
DonnieBoy Updated - 6th May 2009
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RE: Microsoft to defend its IE policies in closed-door antitrust hearing
homeioy19-24353590098412946075400837007254 11th Nov
enyfcy,good post!

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