ie8 fix

More questions (and even a few answers) about Windows 7 E

By | June 18, 2009, 7:43am PDT

Summary: It’s been a week since Microsoft publicly acknowledged its plan to release a browserless version of Windows 7 that would be sold in Europe only, as a way to potentially appease European antitrust regulators. Since then, I’ve gotten more than a few reader questions about Windows 7 E — and have come up with a few of my own) and have put them to Microsoft for answers

It’s been a week since Microsoft publicly acknowledged its plan to release a browserless version of Windows 7 that would be sold in Europe only, as a way to potentially appease European antitrust regulators.

Since then, I’ve gotten more than a few reader questions about Windows 7 E — and have come up with a few of my own  — and have put them to Microsoft for answers. Here are a few more tidbits about what users and developers can expect from that version of Windows 7, slated to be commercially available on October 22. All of these answers were provided to me via a Microsoft spokesperson.

Q: Is Internet Explorer (IE) really completely gone from Windows with Windows 7 E?

A: No. Microsoft has removed the Web access points provided by IE 8. But the Trident rendering engine is still part of the operating system, as is the HTTP stack and other “core” elements upon which other pieces of the operating system have been built. (I don’t have a full list of what’s in and what’s out from an IE perspective. I’m not sure when and if Microsoft plans to make such a list available.)

Q: According to Microsoft’s official statement on its Web site, Microsoft is claiming applications designed for Windows will run just as well on Win 7 E
as on plain old Windows 7.  But don’t a number of apps, especially custom/business applications, assume IE is “there”? What happens to these knds of apps if IE isn’t there?

A: The fact that the HTTP stack, rendering engine and other core pieces are all there. That’s what enables everything else to keep on running. You basically just don’t have the executable to be browsing the web with IE.

Q: As a software manufacturer, it is critical for our company to continue having CHM (help file) support built in the OS for our technical documentation. Is that guaranteed?”

A: Microsoft will be sharing more technical details for E with partners so that they can test it with their applications, etc. Last week was just when we were notifying partners of our plans so that they could be able to know and prepare on their end. (I asked Microsoft when and how it plans to share these details and was told the timeframe remains to be determined.)

Q: Windows 7 E will be sold at retail and available installed on new PCs in Europe.But what’s the deal for volume licensees who aren’t necessarily planning to buy Windows 7 through OEMs?

A: Windows 7 E will be the only version of Windows 7 available to volume licensees in Europe.  Enterprises usually have their IT departments create a custom image for their organization, where they add their own custom applications on top (business apps, etc.).  So they can easily add whatever browser they prefer as part of the roll out that way.

Q: When will European users have a chance to check out a test build of Windows 7 E? Will the final Windows 7 E be released to manufacturing on the same day as regular Windows 7?

A: Still waiting for Microsoft answers to these…. Microsoft isn’t yet ready to provide these answers.

What else are you interested in knowing about Windows 7 E?

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Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: More questions (and even a few answers) about Windows 7 E
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 10th Oct
Delighted i stubled onto this astonishing web-site, will be specified to avoid wasting it so i can nfl store browse frequently.
Of course, the main question is, who will ever see this version? The EU threw a hissy about MP a few years ago, and insisted on a version of XP without MP. As I recall, no one bought it. Win7E will turn out the same way.
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No it won't
NoThomas 18th Jun 2009
Reread the article and the previous article, MS has said its the 'ONLY' version of Win 7 they are releasing to Europe. Unlike XP MP which MS sold both versions, MS will only sell Win 7E in Europe. They already said they will not sale the versions that include IE.
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Not what I read
itpro_z 18th Jun 2009
As I understand it, the OEMs will have the choice to sell the OS without a browser, or go ahead and include one. I doubt that any seller will want the complaints of delivering a crippled product, so I expect that everyone will include a browser. Whether that browser is IE or something else remains to be seen, but I expect a great many to just go ahead and install IE as the safe choice.
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You mean OEM's or retail?
NoThomas 18th Jun 2009
I thought you meant retail, MS will include a free CD or something at the store location, its your option on whether or not you pick it. OEMS MS is offering it to them as an addon, I see your point though. I dont know EU companies could easily go with a EU product like Opera. I dont think its a sure thing they will go with MS. Some OEM's might not even include the browser at all and just expect the user to either download one thru FTP or pick one up at the store when they buy the PC. One other thing all because MS doesnt want to do the pick and choose option doesnt mean that OEM's won't. I would think it would be very easy for OEM's to install 3-4 browsers.
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3-4 browsers
zdneter0000 18th Jun 2009
I would guess that they will not offer multiple browsers. First, it's not at all clear that consumers would want that. Second, the OEMs would then have to support all those browsers. Even if they tried to pass some of it off to the browser companies, they are they ones getting the phone calls.
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You could be right...
NoThomas 19th Jun 2009
but then again, I have seen multiple anti-viri, multiple toolbars, a bunch of crapware, whats a few web browsers??
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AV?
Hallowed are the Ori 19th Jun 2009
I have seen multiple anti-viri, multiple toolbars, a bunch of crapware, whats a few web browsers??

Are you sure about the antivirus installs? It's well known that having more than one AV application on a PC is begging for trouble.
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@ John E Wahd
NoThomas 19th Jun 2009
2-3 Years ago, either Dell or HP (I dont remember for sure but I think it was Dell) had Norton Internet Security Firewall and antivirus and mcafee, my friend said his new computer was running slowly, I uninstalled Norton because it was only a trial anyways and kept mcaffee because it had a 12-18 month subscription.
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How about Google Chrome?
Bozzer 19th Jun 2009
Google may offer their Browser as default, linking to Google Products (Such as its office suite, etc).

May pay the OEM's a couple of bucks each as well!

happy

Just like they get paid for all that spamware that comes with most PC's
And they'll use the "stack" as the anti-competitive leveraging against other browsers.
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I don't think so
wolf_z 18th Jun 2009
There are some key differences between Windows XP N and Windows 7 E.

First of all, Europeans are forbidden from buying Win 7, they *MUST* buy 7E. They can have either Home E or Pro E but they can't have normal 7. MS won't sell it to them.

MS won't sell normal Win 7 to European OEMs either. In other words, Europe is stuck with 7E.

Of course, having said that, if a 7E owner decides to install IE (and many will) those users will in effect end up with normal 7.

It's just MS won't sell normal 7 out of the box, users in the EU will have to make the choice to have IE. If they don't, well the OEMs will choose a browser for them. happy

I suspect even Norwegian OEMs won't be choosing Opera tho...
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Choice is a funny thing...
Bozzer 19th Jun 2009
I guess most people just use the browser that comes with the machine. This doesn't equate to people choosing IE given the choice.

If google pays the OEMs 50 cents per install, gets to have Chrome on the desktop, with a set of other links to its online office... mmmm..

Support costs to OEMs = Nil
Profit = units x commision = $$$

happy
the ONLY way to get Windows 7 in Europe.

But, this is ONLY Microsoft's proposal so far.
What the EU and MS finally settle on is yet to be
seen.
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Yes, but...
itpro_z 18th Jun 2009
...the OEMs will be free to install whatever they want on the machine before it ships or goes to retail. I really doubt that many will ship a totally browser free system, as that will cause consumer issues. What they install is the question. The safe choices would be either FF or IE.

I can't see them going with a menu, as that would leave them open to lawsuits from any obscure browser not included.
accept Microsoft's proposal which, will do
nothing to fix the damage done by Microsoft's
illegal behavior.

I would imagine that the ballot box will be the
solution that they go with, with OEMs being
required to defer the choice to the final
customer. Any company that wants will be able to
petition to be on the list, with, requirements
to weed out those that can not provide a secure
functional browser.
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And who's going to judge?
wolf_z 18th Jun 2009
Who maintains the list? Who says what is "functional" or "secure"? The EU? Some browser council? I suspect in the end to get on the list all you have to do is say "I have a browser. Include it or get sued."

You certainly can't say "browsers with a 5% marketshare or better" because Opera fails that test--so does Chrome for that matter. happy

Finally there's still the issue of forcing a company to promote its competitors. That won't stand, I don't think. Not even as a monopoly penalty.
security. There could be a fee of say 500 euros
to make sure everybody applying was really
serious. Europeans are not as stupid as you
would like to think.
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 18th Jun 2009
It won't be hard to define a standard for minimum functionality and security????? Tell me you're not that naive?

?500 to get my browser on the list? Holy cow ... that's cheaper than ANY advertizing I could buy.

On the other hand, for a small software house in a tiny village in Latvia or suchlike, that's a hell of a lot of money ... an exclusionary amount of money, in fact. They'd have no problem finding a lawyer keen for publicity that would sue the EU for economic discrimination.

It would take YEARS for the EU to create a plan that even had a hope of being employable ... and it would be a constant and ongoing struggle to keep it up to date, remove browsers with poor records, show you browsers that promote your chosen languages, show you browsers built for those with vision/mobility impairment ...

I am from the UK and have seen endless initiatives coming from the EU which are horribly poorly thought out (EU-wide ID's with RFID's that could be read by a $50 RFID reader was one of the latest).

You really need to think more carefully ... your opinions whilst often altruistic are just woefully naive.
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Re
BOSS4908 18th Jun 2009
I know Firefox is still unpatched with more than 20 known whole but I do not think it should be pulled or taken out of the picture.
security problems as they arise, and that the
current browser meet minimal standards. The
Europeans are perfectly capable of setting
standards.

But, talking about days of un-patched
vulnerabilities, and time to patch, MS is king
in that regard.
  • Flagged
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Do they.
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 18th Jun 2009
How big a team? How long do they get to fix issues? What about really hard issues? And who distributes those fixes? Does every browser vendor now have to build and operate a live distrubution engine like Windows Update? And do they have to fix every reported vuln? Who vets whether the vuln's are even possible? And what about vulns that are only achievable if you have physical access to the user's PC? Do they qualify? And how do they ensure that they don't break other apps or open up other holes on user's machines when they DO issue a patch?

And what languages do they have to support? Every language in Europe? All 230 of them? And how long after fixing a patch do they get to localize and document each and every fix in 230 languages?

You'll forgive MS and others for not shipping a fix for a vuln the moment it first appears to work on the dev's machine.

And perhaps most importantly, WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS??? Browsers are a free commodity these days - who's going to be able to afford the red-tape?
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And who pays for all the work involved
BroGnorik 18th Jun 2009
And who pays for all the work involved of adding, testing, and updating all those browsers you want built into windows?

Why isn't there a ballot screen for Linux, Apple, or BSD for me to choose?

This is like ask McDonalds to sell Burger King burgers, but McDonald's is not allowed to collect any money for it, all money has to go to BK, and if there is a problem then customers will complain to McDonalds and NOT BK.

Really how is that fair? Simply it is not.
where you select the browser to install. Every
provider would be responsible for making sure
their browsers downloads and installs correctly.

But, again, this is ONLY a proposal from the EU
at this time. The Europeans are not stupid, they
will work this out.
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They came with the stupid idea...
windozefreak 18th Jun 2009
If they are sooooo good at working things out, why did they not work through this stupidity at the outset? You tell me!
they are stupid, and they will let you off!!!

But, do not worry, there is not final ruling, and
before making such a ruling they will figure it
out.
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Once again Donnieboy,
rtk 19th Jun 2009
Nobody but you has called "the Europeans" stupid, and when someone says something about the EU, they aren't talking about citizens.

Enough of the red herring.
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Who pays?
dgrainge 18th Jun 2009
The manufacturers, just like they all do right now for MS approval. There is an authentication process to make sure apps and drivers are XP-compatible, Vista-compatible, Server-compatible.

Software manufacturers pay for this right now. If they want the Vista stamp on their product that is.
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But this isn't MS' job to police the European Software industry's ability .
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 18th Jun 2009
... to abide by the EU's ever shifting policies and rules.
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@Donnie - Having a monopoly is NOT illegal
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 18th Jun 2009
There's NO law that states you cannot be a monopoly. But you do have to play by different rules if you are. Alas, those rules are VERY poorly defined and are often created post-fact and applied retrospectively.
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What exactly is
LegendsOfBatman 18th Jun 2009
Microsoft's "illegal behavior"?

Im not into fanboy nonsense. I have my own issues with MS, that I wish were illegal (eg., I wish they would be penalized for placing their cookies to zune, bing, marketplace, and msn on my browser, and that we could block them, like we can any other cookie. Since I start on a blank page, there's no reason for those to ave started popping up). But, my point is, I don't want a fanboy or flamer response. You made a claim they did something illegal, I'd seriously like to know what this was. (The fact the EU calls something illegal, doesn't necessarily prove to me it really is, as they seem to be a bunch of crackpots blackmailing and extorting US businesses).
Again, I am OS neutral, altho, personally, I prefer MS (usually) but not without gripes. And i detest the flame wars from the Linux geeks, and the MS fanboy geeks, as it really takes away from any real valuable info here. So, please, "just the facts",
Thanks.
illegal and what is not. The simple answer is
that if you have a monopoly in one product, you
can not bundle another product with the first
one. Of course there are the details, but, worry
not, the Europeans will analyze all the details
and bring the appropriate charges and design an
appropriate remedy.
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What monopoly?
itpro_z 18th Jun 2009
What monopoly, Donnie? IE certainly has no monopoly, as evidenced by FF, Chrome, Safari, etc, having great success. I didn't include Opera on that list, because they have failed miserably and are seeking government help rather than trying to compete.

Is Windows a monopoly? I keep hearing everyone cheering about how well the Mac is doing, not to mention Ubuntu, RHEL, and a host of other Linux distros, so I think that argument has already been settled. Methinks this has more to do with anti-MS bias than anything else, both on your part and the EU.
with Windows. You may be stupid enough, but
Microsoft is not stupid enough to try and claim
they do not currently have a monopoly, or did
not have one in the past.

Again, the Europeans are NOT stupid, you, YES.
  • Flagged
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Sorry, but NO!
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 18th Jun 2009
Firstly, there is nothing illegal about having a monopoly. However, in some countries, it is illegal to actively prevent someone from competing with you. When has Microsoft ever prevented any user from installing any Windows-compatible browser/media player/whatever? They haven't.

It's actually NOT illegal to bundle a product with another product with which you have a monopoly. If that was the case, Nokia wouldn't be able to ship phones with preinstalled web browsers, Apple (monopoly of Mac compatible computers) wouldn't be able to sell machines with their own browser built-in and so on.

In order to prove that MS is breaking anti-competition laws, Opera will have to prove that by bundling IE, MS has stifled the market.

Back when IE was first bundled with Windows, there was Netscape and Mosaic. IE came a distant 3rd.

Netscape got lazy and Mosaic was never a strong commercial offering anyhow.

Today, IE is losing ground to one or more of FF, Chrome, Opera, Safari and a few others.

Far from stifling competition, one could eaily argue that there is PLENTY of competition out there and that MS has several very significant challengers out there that could, if MS doesnt' continue to to work damn hard, eliminate Microsoft's dominance in browsers for Windows.

The fact that Opera is trying to sell a browser in a market saturated by FREE (as in beer) and superior offerings from a variety of vendors, frankly, illuminates the facts of the matter - Opera is struggling for existence and their business model is shot. So they're going after the compeitor with the biggest bank balance.

Once Opera release a version for MacOS, you can be sure they'll be bleating to the EU about the fact that they can't get a free ride on every Apple sold too.
not trying to claim that they do not have a
monopoly. Anybody with half a brain would realize
that your own product does not a market make, and
that Apple, under any professional interpretation
of the law does NOT have a monopoly.

Rant all you want, but even MS is not making such
stupid claims.
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EU == Monopoly
Rama.NET 19th Jun 2009
EU is the biggest monopoly on the face of earth. They change their rules and policies of doing business with it so frequently. Somebody should bring justice to sue EU's monopolistic behavior.
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MS has a monopoly on on the OS and also on pre-
installed software. This is a big deal because most users
are not very computer savvy and will use whatever is
pre-installed. So this is a question of equal access. It's
like a large department store (MS) offering its own
products (IE) on the main floor and any competing
products (FF) are on the fifth floor and there are no
elevators. That's what this is all about...
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@Donnie ... Apple DOES have a monopoly ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 Updated - 22nd Jun 2009
... of the Apple-compatible computer market.

Apple's is a far more closed ecosystem than Microsoft's. In Microsoft's world, you can run Windows on almost any PC. In Apple's world, their EULA restricts you to only run OSX on Apple's hardware, and restricts Apple's hardware to only run OSX (subtle but important differences).

A monopoly, as defined by Webster's is:
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party

That describes Apple FAR more than MS.

Further ... Apple takes explicit steps to prevent others from shipping hardware that's technically able to run OSX without change. And Apple refuses to sell their hardware with any OS than OSX.

THAT is proactively exclusionary and because of the terms of their EULA, defines Apple as the controlling monopoly of the Apple compatible computer market.

THAT is a monopoly.
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@prof123 - Utter garbage ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 22nd Jun 2009
You said "MS has a monopoly on on the OS and also on pre-installed software"

Really? So there are no other OS' out there that are able to compete with Microsoft's? What about BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OSX, Solaris, AIX & z-OS, ... oh ... and let's not forget about the 300+ varieties of Linux.

Whilst Microsoft does indeed have a majority stake in the PC market, it's by no means a monopoly, and, due to the DOJ and others, are no longer permitted to protect their market using exclusionary tactics.

For example, they are not permitted to discount copies of Windows if the OEM agrees not to install Firefox, etc. In fact, the DOj enforces that MS *MUST* charge all of the top 20 OEM's the same license fee for each edition of Windows.

The reason that 99% of all PC's sold at retail include a copy of Windows is that the market demands that.

A little while ago, a new market for ultra-portable, low-cost PC's emerged. We call them netbooks. Initially, those machines were ONLY available with Linux preinstalled. Then Microsoft offered the OEM's a version of XP to install. Sales immediately skyrocketed and Linux sales fell off a cliff. In fact, many retailers returned their stock of Linux netbooks to the OEM's for them to be re-imaged with Windows because NONE of their customers wanted Linux on their new machines.

You may have issues with Microsoft's business practices many years ago when it, like any small-medium sized company fighting for it's existence, carried out its business very aggressively. But it's unfair to judge the company as it was back then using today's standards and codes of conduct of a company of Microsoft's size today.

Yes, MS was found to have acted improperly and have been fined several times for their behaviour. They've also had almost 10 years of DOJ oversight and have RADICALLY changed their business practices.

However, don't assume that means that MS has to stop competing nor that it has to in some way concede some of its market to a collection of random competitors. Business is not some utopian hug-fest. It's hard, it's dangerous and it's frought with issues every step of the way.

I for one fear that the EU is starting to wade FAR too deeply into the waters of illegal protectionism that has beleaguered too many countries' growth and prosperity in the past. Europe, and more accurately, Europeans will suffer greatly if the EU starts stamping too hard on its foreign neighbors.
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de-void you're missing the point
prof123 23rd Jun 2009
I was talking mainly about monopoly on pre-installed
software. If 90% of PCs come with pre-installed OS
(Windows) then all the other free software from MS is
included as well. This would be software which is
essential to computing but not essential that it comes
from MS... i.e. Video Player, Browser, etc. If several
browsers were pre-installed, it would be a much more
fair game. Users could set the default browser, no
downloading, no installation. Now IE could compete on
merits and not on the fact that it is pre-installed by
default.
The thread is near its maximum level and any serious dialogue trying to answer it will get very confusing, very quickly.

Hans
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I would but
LegendsOfBatman 20th Jun 2009
I dont see where we can. Just to reply to story or message.
But, i agree in that ZDNet does not know how to make a good message board. heck, this is possibly the worst I've ever seen-- with exception of how they attempt to line up responses. That I do like. But, unless I am doing something wrong, I just don't really like how after 2 or 3 replies, "no further responses will be accepted" and once you get to the end of the page, clicking "Next" gives up one message at a time. That is as lame as it gets.
(Ok, so this is off-topic; but, it is in response to a question. But, no worries; people cant respon to much more anyway. wink
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@nizuse: I know
Rama.NET 19th Jun 2009
But at the same time you are doing the same.
Peace.
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No I'm not.
nizuse 19th Jun 2009
You are talking out of your arse with this kind of nonsense:

"EU is the biggest monopoly on the face of earth. They change their rules and policies of doing business with it so frequently. Somebody should bring justice to sue EU's monopolistic behavior."

Come on man.
  • Flagged
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Sorry, Donnie,...
itpro_z 18th Jun 2009
...but your vision of how this can work is getting more and more complicated all the time. Now, we need a government commission to set standards and decide what browser choices we will have, complete with fees (taxes) to be levied to even be considered. This is always what happens when we allow government to get involved in business.

Just a thought, but how about we allow Microsoft to ship their OS with whatever features they wish, and allow the consumer to decide if they want to use IE or something else? No government agencies, no commissions, no taxes, no one deciding for me what I can or cannot use. Allow me to decide, for myself, based on my own needs and wants.
with the law!!!!!!!!!! It did not take you long
to figure that one out. But, the difficulty and
the details involved in enforcing the law will
not dissuade the Europeans.

According to your reasoning if the details of a
murder case become too overwhelming, we should
just forget it and let the suspects go free.
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See above: What monopoly? nt
itpro_z 18th Jun 2009
nt
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See above, MS is not even THAT stupid.
DonnieBoy 18th Jun 2009
NT.
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Donnie, I could care less about some court case a decade ago. I am talking about now, and Microsoft in no way still can be considered a monopoly. The American Heritage dictionary defines a monopoly as "A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity."

So, Donnie, what activity does Microsoft have exclusive control over? Internet browsing? IE's market share has eroded substantially over the last few years, with FF and others taking a healthy slice. What about Windows itself? Windows has also dropped, with the Mac taking the most share away from MS. The entire concept of a monopoly implies a lack of choice, yet we have more choice today than at any time since the very early days of the PC.

If MS no longer is a monopoly, then this comes down to nothing more than MS bashing, something that you and the EU are very committed to.
Read up on EU law when you have a few spare weeks,
but, in any case, MS I am sure has spent a lot of
money reading up on EU law, and are not even going
to try that route.

Europeans are not as stupid as you would like to
think.
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RE: More questions (and even a few answers) about Windows 7 E
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 10th Oct
Delighted i stubled onto this astonishing web-site, will be specified to avoid wasting it so i can nfl store browse frequently.

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