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Who still cares about Microsoft's server-communications protocols?

By | September 20, 2007, 10:13am PDT

Summary: Now that the Court of First Instance has overturned Microsoft’s appeal of the European Union’s antitrust case, Microsoft is finally going to have to deliver all required protocols and documentation for a price deemed reasonable. But who will care, at this point? Samba and … Samba.

Microsoft has used all kinds of excuses for not providing access to the server communications protocols that other vendors have said they needed to make their products interoperable with Windows Server.

Who still cares about Microsoft's server-communications protocols?We’ve heard it all: Documenting these protocols would require time (like years…). Microsoft would be harmed by having to make public its intellectual property. A fair pricing scheme needed to be determined. Making public the protocols would be redundant, as Microsoft already is providing other vendors with the required interop information via one-on-one licensing and interop deals.

Now that the Court of First Instance has overturned Microsoft’s appeal of the European Union’s antitrust case, Microsoft is finally going to have to deliver all required protocols and documentation for a price deemed reasonable. But who cares, at this point?

Samba and … Samba.

That point comes across loud in clear in a podcast on Groklaw with Jeremy Allison [above right], co-author of Samba; Volker Lendecke, a member of the Samba team; Georg Greve, president of the Free Software Foundation Europe; and Carlo Piana, the lawyer for Samba and FSF.

Greve noted that by the time of the September 17 Court decision, Microsoft had “bought out” most of the companies who originally wanted the protocol information, specifically Novell, Sun and the Computer and Communications Information Association (which represented a number of Microsoft’s rivals). As a result, the only vendor who has been advocating actively for access to Microsoft’s protocols is Samba.

This is a bit deceptive, however, as Samba is doing implementations on behalf of a number of vendors. Here’s Allison from the Groklaw interview:

“So the interesting thing… (Microsoft General Counsel) Brad Smith gave a statement just after the judgment was announced, where he talked about how the industry had changed and Microsoft was doing deals with Sun. Sun had now become a Windows OEM. They had the Novell deal, et cetera. What he didn’t say was that both Sun and Novell, their workgroup server implementation is Samba (laughter) which is being explicitly excluded from the agreements that they’ve done with Novell. (laughter) And IBM’s workgroup server implementation is Samba, and Apple’s workgroup server implementation is Samba, and… y’know. You go into Fry’s Electronics in the US and any sub-$5,000 NAS box you will find in the place is Samba. So essentially, anyone who actually really competes with them has been excluded from these agreements.”

And the idea that Microsoft could simply extend its existing Microsoft Communications Protocol Program (MCPP) to provide Samba with the required interoperability protocols and documentation is a sham, too, Allison said.

“(I)f you look at the agreement that Microsoft had done with companieslike Novell, and probably Xandros and Linspire — I’ve only seen the Novell agreement, I haven’t seen the Xandros or Linspire ones, the Novell ones are public by the way — you will find that they specifically exclude what Microsoft call in their legal documents “clone products”, which I think they include Samba among. So yeah, there’s this whole theory that they’re trying to set up that Samba is a clone of Windows and therefore is not available for protection.

“The interesting thing about the licensing is that I think what Microsoft will try and do… I believe this might have been what some of the discussions with the Commission have already been about is that they’re trying to say ‘look, we have a licensing programme already that we implemented in the US for the Department of Justice case” and that’s the MCPP, Microsoft Communications Protocol Program licensing program, and what they were trying to do is to say “Well, why don’t we just extend that to cover the server-to-server stuff and then we’ll adopt that in the EU and let’s settle the case.”‘ The problem with the MCPP is that it’s an abject failure in that if you look at the companies that are licensed under that program, and the license terms are explicitly designed to exclude free software, so they’re designed so there’s a per-royalty basis, there’s a time limit on the implementation’s validity - I think it’s about five years - there’s royalties, there’s per-seat licenses. There’s all sorts of methods to make this unusable in a free software implementation.”

The rest of the Groklaw podcast and transcript are definitely worth a read.

So, yes, while I did say I think Microsoft has changed some of its monopolistic ways, I would be the first to admit it has not changed them all. Microsoft’s stall tactics and word games around providing interoperability information is a case in point.

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Topics

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: Who still cares about Microsoft's server-communications protocols?
makrejktt2901-24353668065513681736555950048637 Updated - 12th Nov
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Who cares....?????
diegocg 20th Sep 2007
Those "communication protocols" are what Microsoft uses to implement AD....actually, they're not closed communication protocols, in many cases they're closed extensions to already available public standards

Those communication protocols are considered one of the reasons why Windows Server sells so much. Microsoft owns the desktop market, and the AD client built in in every windows desktop machine uses propietary extensions, so only windows server can be used as a well-integrated AD DS for windows clients.


This stops not just Linux, but any non-Microsoft OS. "only samba cares"? Samba is the software used by pretty much all the non-microsoft operative systems (including all the unixes - solaris, aix, etc) to interoperate with microsoft. If microsoft published those protocols, any non-microsoft server could be used as AD DS in microsoft networks. Microsoft obviously doesn't want that, and has tried hard to avoid publishing anything.

Documenting those extensions would not take microsoft "a year", specially considering that microsoft neccesarily has to have documented them internally. What microsoft needs to show the world is a RFC-like document explaining the extensions and/or propietary protocols used. Not certainly a lot of work for Microsoft.


It's funny to see how Microsoft is trying to look 'open' to get the ISO aproval for the OOXML standard, but when it's about the procotols that forbid non-windows operative systems from competing with windows server in the ubiquous windows networks.....microsoft tries all the possible legal tricks to avoid publishing it, even if they've to pay 500? millions.
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Don't be so sure
Yagotta B. Kidding 20th Sep 2007
Documenting those extensions would not take microsoft "a year", specially considering that microsoft neccesarily has to have documented them internally.

Don't be so sure. Hanlon's Razor suggests that Microsoft may well be telling us the absolute truth: the only documentation they have for their software is the source code. From people I know who work for them, that's very consistent with the corporate culture.

What microsoft needs to show the world is a RFC-like document explaining the extensions and/or propietary protocols used. Not certainly a lot of work for Microsoft.

You apparently have never had to reverse-engineer your way through twenty years' accumulation of cruft.
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Doesn't matter what Microsoft says ...
MisterMiester 21st Sep 2007
It matters what the final judgment says:

"48 By way of remedy for the abusive refusal referred to in Article 2(a) of the contested decision, Article 5 of that decision provides as follows:

?(a) Microsoft ? shall, within 120 days of the date of notification of [the contested decision], make the interoperability information available to any undertaking having an interest in developing and distributing work group server operating system products and shall, on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms, allow the use of the interoperability information by such undertakings for the purpose of developing and distributing work group server operating system products;"

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lang=en&newform=newform&Submit=Submit&alljur=alljur&jurcdj=jurcdj&jurtpi=jurtpi&jurtfp=jurtfp&alldocrec=alldocrec&docj=docj&docor=docor&docop=docop&docav=docav&docsom=docsom&docinf=docinf&alldocnorec=alldocnorec&docnoj=docnoj&docnoor=docnoor&typeord=ALLTYP&allcommjo=allcommjo&affint=affint&affclose=affclose&numaff=&ddatefs=&mdatefs=&ydatefs=&ddatefe=&mdatefe=&ydatefe=&nomusuel=Microsoft&domaine=&mots=&resmax=100

Microsoft has had over 3 years from the original ruling to produce these specs. If Microsoft doesn't delivery the specs within 120 days the fines will increase dramatically. EU Competitive Commissioner Neelie Kroes is fed up with Microsoft's tactics of delay and obfuscation.

Microsoft knows it's game over. Check out the conciliatory tone lead attorney Brad Smith when he discusses the issue of compliance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqgG1ixpXbQ

?You can take this as a gentle word of warning, if you like. We are just at the beginning of a period of more intensive antitrust enforcement.? - Neelie Kroes, EU Competition Commisioner
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Two ways of looking at it
Yagotta B. Kidding 21st Sep 2007
Doesn't matter what Microsoft says

Legally, you're right. I was discussing history.

If Microsoft doesn't delivery the specs within 120 days the fines will increase dramatically. EU Competitive Commissioner Neelie Kroes is fed up with Microsoft's tactics of delay and obfuscation.

Which may, in fact, cause them to dump another jar of pennies. The fines are currently not even at the petty-cash level.

Microsoft knows it's game over. Check out the conciliatory tone lead attorney Brad Smith when he discusses the issue of compliance:

Well, if you'll pardon me, duh! Of course he's talking conciliation. An outright declaration of war doesn't buy nearly as much time as a cooperative talk.

Look, if I'm in front of a judge and am ordered to do something I have no intention of doing, which is a better plan:
1) Flip off the judge and tell him to stuff his Order where the Sun don't shine, or
2) Say, "right away Your Honor," and then go about my business?

I may end up in the slammer for contempt either way, but the second approach buys me time. Given time, a lot can happen. I could die. The plaintiff could die. The judge could die. Who knows? Maybe the horse could learn to sing.
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Microsoft is at the short end ...
MisterMiester 21st Sep 2007
Which may, in fact, cause them to dump another jar of pennies. The fines are currently not even at the petty-cash level.

Everyone has a pain threshold includes Microsoft. They have no recourse at this moment except to appeal to the Court of Justice which can only rule on issues of applicable law. With the court decision the EU Competitive Commision has been issued a mandate and can raise the fines to any level they determine is necessary to bring Microsoft into compliance. It could be $10, $20, $30 million dollars a day, the skies the limit.

Well, if you'll pardon me, duh! Of course he's talking conciliation. An outright declaration of war doesn't buy nearly as much time as a cooperative talk.

To be honest I don't believe that it was so much conciliatory, but just his shock that he actual lost most of the appeal to the EU and a small collection of free software people. It's just mind boggling.

Any cooperative talks are pretty much over. The EU has come this far, they're not going to stop any time soon. Neelie Kroes has the backing of an independent judicial body and she's going to put the screws to Microsoft. It's beyond just compliance at this point, the EU has to save face.

Who knows? Maybe the horse could learn to sing.

I don't know, but it looks like the fat lady is starting to warm up her voice. happy
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If I was a simple software developer, standing virtually alone against one of largest, most intimidating software companies in the world - and their army of well-trained and highly-paid lawyers, I'd probably be a "whiner" as well. Given the fact that Jeremy has the serious nads to stand up to Microsoft - and to do it on principle and not simply for money - I can totally give him some slack for any perceived "whining." On the other hand, he's definitely a "winner" and I'm proud of him and his cohorts. (The groklaw.net article Foley refers to is indeed a great read, even if you're a MS supporter in this case.)

It is very gratifying to hear about techno-geeks winning in court against MS and their legal superstars. Like Jeremy said, it is easy to write a legal brief when all you have to do is tell the truth. OTOH, the MS lawyers earn their money every time they open their mouths and vomit forth spin-doctored half-truths and slick-sounding duplicity.

I, for one, am a geek who's happy with "one of the world's biggest whiners."

-MC
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I'm with You!!!
Ole Man 20th Sep 2007
Jeremy is not only a winner, he's a Hero, with a capital H. Only envious losers whine about Heroes.

Gooooo Jeremy......!
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.
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Whiner could be correct
John Zern 21st Sep 2007
and the license terms are explicitly designed to exclude free software, ... There?s all sorts of methods to make this unusable in a free software implementation

So he thinks that MS should freely give the code to a company like Red Hat as they earn nothing from the software, yet have made 435.5 million in sales the last 12 months?

Oh yeah, If the OS is GPLv3 then MS must allow it to be given away for free, to all the companies who are making money off of Linux.

If they are making money off of support, then they can pay out the money for the license
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No, he does not. In fact he explicitly states that He, and the SaMBa team do not want Microsot's code.

The only thing they are intersted in are the communications protocols, the same type of thing that Microsoft claims to be giving a way freely with OOXML, and which the Open Document Foundation does give away freely (the ODF specification).

Microsoft's word games have you confused. A specification is what you create code from, and it is the specification that the SaMBa developers want, so that they can create code that will interoperate with the code Microsoft created using the same specification.

It is this type of information that EU competition law states must be freely available to competitors, so that Monopolies do not have an unfair advantage in the market place, so that new companies have a chance to innovate and, if what they have is better than what the monopoly has, grow.
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nobody cares!
Linux Geek 20th Sep 2007
with Linux becoming de facto standard OS there is no need to work on windoze interoperability.
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(raised eyebrow)
wolf_z 20th Sep 2007
The de facto standard? With what, 1.5% of the desktop base and maybe 40% of the server base world wide?

I'm curious about what you've been smoking, it must be some *seriously* halucinogenic stuff!
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Not even
Yagotta B. Kidding 20th Sep 2007
The de facto standard? With what, 1.5% of the desktop base and maybe 40% of the server base world wide?

Desktop share may be a bit higher; server share is probably lower. From a "market share" (as distinct from penetration) perspective the desktop percentage is vanishingly small; the server number is, IIRC, about 30%
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Put the pipe down, slowly
Yagotta B. Kidding 20th Sep 2007
Dude, that stuff isn't going to leave much of whatever mind you still have if you don't lose the habit.
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Agreed
Mercutio_Viz 20th Sep 2007
I'm a Linux user and FOSS supporter, but even I know fanboi credulity when I see it. Linux might be making some inroads on the desktop market, but it is quite small. Also, while the numbers of Linux server installs is growing, the number of MS server installs is growing more quickly, thus the reduction in relative market share.

In answer to the original question: a lot of us care. As long as MS abuses its dominant position to remain 'the only choice' then a lot of people will care, especially the great many IT guys (like myself) who work in a heavily mixed Windows + Linux environment. I *need* Windows to play nicely with Linux. Actually, Windows does play nicely (somewhat), but it's *Microsoft* who isn't playing nicely. I'm glad the EC laid the legal smackdown on them, even if I do share some of John Carroll's concerns about anti-trust zealotry. (http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1751).

To the FSFE and Samba team I say: thank you for being a thorn in MS's side and helping to force them to be honest.

-MC
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Growth rates
Yagotta B. Kidding 20th Sep 2007
Also, while the numbers of Linux server installs is growing, the number of MS server installs is growing more quickly, thus the reduction in relative market share.

Actually, Linux-preloaded server sales are growing faster than MS-preloaded server sales. Not just as a percentage, but in absolute numbers.
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We should not forget embedded
Richard Flude 20th Sep 2007
Linux sales are skyrocketing in the embedded area.

Desktop is the one area of restricted growth, I wonder why? (hint read blog);-)
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Thanks for the info
Mercutio_Viz 20th Sep 2007
I must have been reading information that had been through the "Ballmer filter"!!

-MC
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Growth Rates
beatphreek 21st Sep 2007
A lot of shops don't buy their Windows Server OS already installed.
Very small shops (less than 10 servers) and very large shops probably do, but there are many, many, shops that buy their licensing seperately from their hardware. So YMMV with the pre-loaded numbers.
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What planet did you say you are from?
tracy anne 21st Sep 2007
NT
Older versions of Windows are supplemented with software from other vendors, like Novell, but also many other third parties, to meet business needs - and fix Window's deficiencies. It would have been preferable for consumers and the IT industry if Microsoft had just purchased the supplements and continuously improved those older operating system products by adding supplements in. Instead management chose to through out the old products and create completely new ones like Vista. The new ones do not necessarily play well with the old ones. Samba makes that so.

Samba has been continuously improved over the years to the point now that it is used to make older flavors of Microsoft Windows compatible with each other and newer flavors. This is important because older hardware can not run Vista well and older software may not run at all in native Vista. In house developed software can prevent wholesale replacement of an old windows operating system with Visa.

The EU decision recently to compel Microsoft to behave so that it has something closer to 50 percent desktop market share could be met with a pen stroke if Microsoft just sold Windows 98 and Windows 2000. The new owners might then enhance the old "obsolete" product. Of course this puts pressures on the Vista team. Vista would have to compete against the older Windows products.

Sell Windows 98 and Windows 2000 to say Accenture, or say SAP or EDS or even Oracle? Then concentrate on Vista.
Which is exactly what Microsoft wants, is attempting, and in fact is accomplishing.

Microsoft does not profit from a system after it has been "sold", unless their WGA and threats are successful in forcing more payment for the same old system. They have an army of lawyers and IT tech whose sole purpose is to contrive methods of forced system retirement and purchases of new ones. Microsoft is devoted to destroying their old systems, NOT to serving their customers. Once the performance apex has been reached, how could they sell new systems otherwise?

If a dog is overfed while his companions and siblings are starved, he will become the biggest and meanest, and take whatever he wants.
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And all the little fish...
Resuna 21st Sep 2007
Samba is merely the only open source projects that was big enough, or high
enough profile, to get in the pool. There's lots of open source projects, and smaller
companies, that are routinely caught out by changes in Microsoft interfaces. All of
these have the opportunity of benefitting from a good decision.

I'm not sure that this was a good decision. It gives Microsoft an opportunity to
demand "reasonable and non-discriminatory fees" from Samba, or from companies
that deploy it. And the same thing for other open source projects.

Given that open source is probably the biggest factor keeping Microsoft honest
now, that's not a good thing.
If you get your information from Groklaw, you should expect bias against Microsoft.

The European decision isn't about evil monopolistic things Microsoft has done, it is about questionable economic theories made into questionable laws that few people understand, reducing Microsoft's market share (the head of the Commission has even stated her desire for this to happen), and possibly, anti-American politics.

Microsoft did two things the commission didn't like.

1) It produced Windows with a streaming media player, without also providing a version of Windows without it. Yup, that's evil deed number one.

2) In 1998, Microsoft asked Sun to use MSDN for information Windows communication protocols, and declined to provide further information free of charge. That's evil deed number two.

It's difficult to understand what's so evil about either of these, even after reading the decision of the European court.

Does Apple provide a version of OSX or the iPod without iTunes?

Does IBM disclose how its mainframes communicate with each other? Did Novell disclose how Netware servers communicated with each other?

Well, these two evil deeds (similar to what Microsoft's comeptitors do all the time) cost Microsoft a world-record fine and some very expensive obligations.

The interoperability bit is particularly strange.

I can understand why Microsoft might be obliged to disclose the protocols that Windows client uses to communicate with Windows server. I can see why that might be useful to competitors. But Microsoft already provides this.

The bit Microsoft wasn't providing was the protocols used from one Windows server to another Windows server, including the protocol used for multimaster.

I don't think any other propriery/non-OSS vendor discloses their server to server protocols. Microsoft has significant competitors in the server space. It's not necessary to have server to server information to compete. But this is what Microsoft is being asked to provide. Essentially for free.

You may agree of disagre whether that's the right outcome, or whether it's necessary for Microsoft's competitors, or whether the law should force this kind of action.

But evil? Monopolistic? I don't really see that. Will be interesting to see how this dramatic legal position taken by the European court plays out with other companies, and in other parts of the world.
This is not a two evil dead decision. It is part of a larger issue involving humanity. The book "Heart of Darkness" resonates today for Europeans, just as the film Apocalypse Now, which was based on the book has resonated for Americans.

In Heart of Darkness Conrad, the author, portrays an ambitious transnational big business executive sent to Africa to trade for ivory. The goals set on this executive are beyond achieving by legitimate means and eventually the executive becomes ruthless, trading a bullet to the head for the ivory. At first all is well for him and, because he meets the goals set for him, he expects to return to polite society, marry his sweetheart, and take a less aggressive position at the firm employing him.

But his means are transparent to all, even his superiors, and eventually no one can envision his return to a society where the laws on paper are expected to be followed regardless of the chances of being charged with violations.

Microsoft officers are just like this transnational big business executive. They have grown hearts of darkness which were well recognized at the World Trade Organization meeting that Bill Gates cohosted. It is Seattle that is ground zero against this now struggle against transnational big businesses which attempts to find and create ecosystems with labor friendly labor laws (read slavery).

This week end's revelations that most of England's trans national big businesses are owned by Saudi monarchs and princes, is enough to demonstrate that the EU is far behind what we in the USA have done to fix things. Microsoft's problems first started with permanent temporaries. The law on paper recognized these as employees but I do not believe just compensation was settled for. It then progressed to violations of US antitrust laws (illegal use of monopoly power) followed by the use of Abramoff to corrupt the US federal government and avoid further penalties. Then on to the EU.. The struggle is a noble one as great as the struggle to end slavery. We in the IT industry have chosen to fight with Web 2.0 and with industry standards and I think have already won the fight. But the officers at Microsoft will just move on to other industries where they will employ the same business model of taking the penalties, rather than observing the law that is on paper, and then if caught corrupting otherwise honest government employees to reduce or eliminate the penalties. That is the definition of a criminal organization. That is the Godfather films. That is not the USA and it is not going to be the EU.

Frank L. Mighetto CCP
world citizen
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If a business is 'transnational'
mrjonno 24th Sep 2007
it isn't English, British or American its transnational by definition.

It's capitalism in action not ideal but no one has every come up with a better alternative
The economy is global no nation is independent and that is probably not a bad thing
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Unfettered Capitalism is the Culprit ...
MisterMiester 24th Sep 2007
Unfettered capitalism will always produce monopoly or oligopoly through consolidation, merger, hostile takeover, etc. Free markets in of themselves are not bad, but need to be tempered with an agenda that benefits society as a whole instead of producing concentration of markets by only a few produces of goods and services.

Most of the northern Scandinavian countries have such a balance between free markets and a strong social state that benefits the larger bulk of its members. Yes there are issues in some areas such as unemployment, taxation, and economic growth, but they do enjoy a high standard of living and GDP per person.

Plus they don't seem to have the issues of 50 million uninsured persons, the starting of illegal wars, and allowing their citizens to starve and perish in the streets such as with Katrina and the Gulf Coast States.

So it depends on what your priorities are in regards to the overall well being of society. Are they every man for themselves in a modern form of survival of the fitness or are they more enlightened, such as I am my brothers keeper?. happy
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RE: Who still cares about Microsoft's server-communications protocols?
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